[Weapon Mechanics Thoughtout] Separate Combo Counter System for Guns - Could it work and How? [ENDING PRIOR INACTIVITY]

[FoxFX]

Currently, Melee Weapons have a greater edge against guns over the following:

• Most Important: a Combo System granting Melee Weapons a Damage Multiplier for Heavy Attacks
  • Also, Mods that also stack different bonuses based on the Combo Counter [Weeping Wounds/Blood Rush] applied to Normal Attacks
• Containing Mods that allow players to use them as Healing Tools [Healing Return/Life Strike]
• Focus System's Naramon Tree can grant Melee a decaying Combo Counter making it easier to maintain higher level Combo Bonuses
• No ammunition resources limiting their uses
• Auto-Defensive Mechanics with Parrying
• Stagger locking

 

For some time, Snipers and a very small selection of Secondary Guns [Knell] have an inherent Combo System to them allowing each successful hit ramp up their striking power. For a while, I had thought about creating a Gun Combo System but doing so in a more balanced format. Stats that could be added to guns to sort this out could include:

• COMBO DURATION - Could either make the combo counters decay or disappear after this stat is dissipated.
• COUNTER PER HIT [CPH] - How much counters a successful hit from the gun offers
  • Could also make Headshots/Aimglide Shots also add bonus counters
• COMBO BONUS - Could represent the amount of bonus offered to the gun per Combo Tier

 

The only things I can see possibilities with this is much like the Melee Combo System was meant to reward use of the weapons to unleash a powerful Heavy Attack in the end, we would use a combo system for the remaining guns to reward skillful aiming/use of guns.

Granted that this is more of a hypothetical idea and this would require a lot of work to add into, but I wanted to get this out of my chest and see how this could/can't work in Warframe.

 

THOUGHTS ON RANGE OF BASE COMBO STATS FOR DIFFERENT GUN TYPES:
 

Spoiler

 

Varying Ranges will also have to factor in mag sizes, ammo sizes, fire rates, reload time, projectile speeds, if AOEs gain combos as well

AUTO GUNS: Low Combo Duration, Very Low Counter Per Hit
SEMI-AUTO GUNS: Medium-High Combo Duration, Medium-High Counter Per Hit
BURST-FIRE GUNS: Low-Medium Combo Duration, Very Low - Low Combo Per Hit
CHARGE-FIRE GUNS: Medium-High Combo Duration, High-Very High Counter Per Hit
HELD-FIRE GUNS: Very Low Combo Duration, Very Low - Low Counter Per Hit

ACTIVE-FIRE GUNS: Medium-High Combo Duration, Medium-High Counter Per Hit
AUTO-SPOOL GUNS: Very Low-Low Combo Duration, Very Low-Low Counter Per Hit
DUPLEX-FIRE GUNS: Medium-High Combo Duration, Low-High Counter Per Hit

MEDIUM-RANGE GUNS: Low - Medium Combo Duration, Low - Medium Counter Per Hit
CLOSE/SHOTGUN-RANGE GUNS: Medium - High Combo Duration, Very Low - Medium Counter Per Hit

SINGLE-TARGET PROJECTILE GUNS: Low - Very High Combo Duration, Medium - High Counter Per Hit
AOE-FIRING/LAUNCHER GUNS: Low- Medium Combo Duration, Very Low Counter Per Hit

 

 

ADDITIONAL SUGGESTIONS, THOUGHTS, IDEAS

Quote

from @Famecans : the counter can increase instantly if the hit target hasn't been hit recently, and it can't work with aoe.

discussion on On-HIT vs On-KILL Combos opened by @xyjsnw99 : Gun kills could be a potential add on. I decided the on-hit combo style to encourage more skillful use of guns and rewarding the use of them more. With on kills, I felt there are some weapons that have a harder time killing enemies due to weird gimmicks they have or due to armor scaling. With on-hits, they are more consistent especially if it can reward more combos hitting vulnerable spots.

CONCLUDING THOUGHTS ON THE RECENT GUN CHANGES {GALVANIZED MODS, GUN ARCANES, ETC.}
 

Spoiler

The Gun Combo Counter suggestion was solely to reward skillful use of guns for players using what the Sniper's Combo Counter system offers to other guns. I felt it would've been the most natural choice and solution to help guns meet up with the capabilities melee weapons had so far.

Right now, the gun changes seems to reward guns when they kill an enemy. I don't feel that comfortable with it since there are a large library of guns and the majority of them will require a much longer time to kill them than the more popular ones [a majority of them which are AOE-based]. Understandably, we have Rivens which could give some lower-used weapons an edge, but consider that the Riven System and their bonuses are all stuck with RNG.

Melee still has some presence especially since they have their access to Heavy Attack builds to offset some of their lost power from a few mod changes.

I still feel the topic of the gun balancing is going to persist in the near future [especially with the development of Cross-Play/Cross-Save], and I still feel that a Gun Combo Counter system is perhaps the better option to consider. I still kinda wish more would share their thoughts on the matter.

This article may close soon.

 

[kyori]

Yes I also thought of bringing what melee has, into guns, and they’re balanced. 

Or they can take away what melee has to come on par with guns lol

[FoxFX]

4 hours ago, kyori said:

Yes I also thought of bringing what melee has, into guns, and they’re balanced. 

Or they can take away what melee has to come on par with guns lol

It would take time to consider how much counters each gun hit would give and the duration they can last before decay/dissipation, but it would be by experimentation an option for rewarding gunplay.

It is practically too late to take away the combo system from melee since we already have mods supporting it especially this far into the game.

[FoxFX]

I have been thinking of adding a section involving how we could add this gun combo system and create/replace some passives from the Focus System later on.

[Tyreaus]

Just a thought: what if melee and firearms shared the same combo counter in this sort of system? It could give weaker firearms, especially the ones that might not be up to snuff even with combo bonuses, a "combo building" niche that doesn't currently exist. Something like the Stug could be a monster at building up combo, for example. And it just opens up using both melee and ranged weapons without needing to use both (or, what's more likely the case, use one to keep its combo going at the neglect of the other).

[FoxFX]

8 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Just a thought: what if melee and firearms shared the same combo counter in this sort of system? It could give weaker firearms, especially the ones that might not be up to snuff even with combo bonuses, a "combo building" niche that doesn't currently exist. Something like the Stug could be a monster at building up combo, for example. And it just opens up using both melee and ranged weapons without needing to use both (or, what's more likely the case, use one to keep its combo going at the neglect of the other).

 

I have thought about that possibility, but I felt that separating the melee combo counter from the gun combo counter has its benefits.

Considering that some guns due to their fire rate can accumulate combos at a faster rate than the melee one and that the Combo Multiplier for certain guns may need to be slightly higher/smaller than the Combo Multiplier Melee has now.

And there is the issue of how Melee Combo's Duration stat should mesh with the Combo Duration of a Gun. There are a couple of thing that we would need to consider if we want a "Universal Combo Counter System" for our weapons.

For now I feel the safe route is to make the Gun Combo System separate from Melee much like how Snipers are separate from it. But that will have to require some testing in itself.

[EtherPigeon]

The upside of a combined combo counter is that it makes heavy attacks more viable: you get that flow of using guns to build up the counter, then go in for the kill with a heavy attack. I think that's something that Warframe encourage in general (variety of attacks, not using the same power/attack/button over and over again).

[FoxFX]

4 hours ago, EtherPigeon said:

The upside of a combined combo counter is that it makes heavy attacks more viable: you get that flow of using guns to build up the counter, then go in for the kill with a heavy attack. I think that's something that Warframe encourage in general (variety of attacks, not using the same power/attack/button over and over again).

Which is totally possible if implemented right. My worry is about how it would interact with the Corrupted Mod [Corrupt Charge] (My other worry is if DE would introduce a Mod to make this sort of thing work out).

[FoxFX]

I may also post a subtopic about how this combo system could help out "side-grade" weapons IF this particular system could work out.

[CephalonCarnage]

How can combo work with guns? Will twin vipers suddenly become the ultimate super weapon? They would if it was built up per hit. The new meta would be fast hands and ammo drum!

 

[FoxFX]

5 hours ago, gbjbaanb said:

How can combo work with guns? Will twin vipers suddenly become the ultimate super weapon? They would if it was built up per hit. The new meta would be fast hands and ammo drum!

 

 

On 2021-02-27 at 4:58 PM, FoxFX said:

For some time, Snipers and a very small selection of Secondary Guns [Knell] have an inherent Combo System to them allowing each successful hit ramp up their striking power. For a while, I had thought about creating a Gun Combo System but doing so in a more balanced format. Stats that could be added to guns to sort this out could include:

• COMBO DURATION - Could either make the combo counters decay or disappear after this stat is dissipated.
• COUNTER PER HIT [CPH] - How much counters a successful hit from the gun offers
  • Could also make Headshots/Aimglide Shots also add bonus counters
• COMBO BONUS - Could represent the amount of bonus offered to the gun per Combo Tier

[COMBO DURATION] and [COUNTER PER HIT] as two additional gun stats can easily solve and balance out the problem you are referring to. With duration, you can make one short enough to have to maintain enough accuracy. With CPH, you can control how much counters generate. Also, you could control the multiplier a weapon receives with [COMBO BONUS]. There are already some weapons out there that won't need as much combo tiers to stack well against higher level content.

[FoxFX]

Looking up which Focus System could potentially have a passive associated with this particular gun combo system if any.

[FoxFX]

Thoughts on Focus System with this Gun-Combo System:

Based on some of the Focus Schools, I have thought about how some Focus Passives could change and support the combo systems we currently have:

Unairu: Melee Blocking offering a chance to double melee counters gained from parrying or gaining gun counters each time the Warframe is hit by health damage.
Vazarin: Melee Combo Tiers offering Warframes Health Regeneration, Gun Combo Tiers offering increased Shield Recharge Rates/Recovery

Naramon: Could give Guns with no noise slight increase in Counter Gains or Combo Bonus Multipliers

Zenurik: Offers enemies killed by Guns a small Energy Gain based on current gun Combo Tier [with a cooldown]

[FoxFX]

I won't try to overtake the discussion with talk of possibly meshing a gun combo system and adding new passives for the Focus System here. That rather would be bordering in Fan Concept.

However, I feel the idea of a combo system for guns COULD be a creative and subtle possibility of improving guns.

The thing we have to consider is how combat in Warframe is like. There is just too many enemies coming at you to make a Soma feel relevant when you can nuke a group with an Ogris.

That being said, to actually make that simple gun stand out against swarms of foes, I feel it has to have that punching power to make it matter.

A gun combo system might give guns that punch, but it also offers the allusion of rewarding skill if executed properly, if thought out properly.

So with that being said, I would open a later discussion about enemy numbers in comparison to the majority of guns we have.

[FoxFX]

On 2021-03-02 at 1:25 PM, gbjbaanb said:

How can combo work with guns? Will twin vipers suddenly become the ultimate super weapon? They would if it was built up per hit. The new meta would be fast hands and ammo drum!

 

You can also consider how some Warframe abilities have combo meters with relatively low durations to maintain them for long much like Atlas' Landslide. The Con Combo System's Duration COULD have that particular limit to it. It all depends on the balancing and testing that will need to be done, though you would have spend mostly as much time with any other method of balancing out guns and melee.

[FoxFX]

I may make a separate forum to talk in detail of an Expanded Gun Combo System as a Fan Concept. But I will weigh in my thoughts on the Duration/Counter Per Hit Tiers specific Weapon firing types can experience.

 

[FoxFX]

THOUGHTS ON RANGE OF BASE COMBO STATS FOR DIFFERENT GUN TYPES:
 

Varying Ranges will also have to factor in mag sizes, ammo sizes, fire rates, reload time, projectile speeds, if AOEs gain combos as well

AUTO GUNS: Low Combo Duration, Very Low Counter Per Hit
SEMI-AUTO GUNS: Medium-High Combo Duration, Medium-High Counter Per Hit
BURST-FIRE GUNS: Low-Medium Combo Duration, Very Low - Low Combo Per Hit
CHARGE-FIRE GUNS: Medium-High Combo Duration, High-Very High Counter Per Hit
HELD-FIRE GUNS: Very Low Combo Duration, Very Low - Low Counter Per Hit

ACTIVE-FIRE GUNS: Medium-High Combo Duration, Medium-High Counter Per Hit
AUTO-SPOOL GUNS: Very Low-Low Combo Duration, Very Low-Low Counter Per Hit
DUPLEX-FIRE GUNS: Medium-High Combo Duration, Low-High Counter Per Hit

MEDIUM-RANGE GUNS: Low - Medium Combo Duration, Low - Medium Counter Per Hit
CLOSE/SHOTGUN-RANGE GUNS: Medium - High Combo Duration, Very Low - Medium Counter Per Hit

SINGLE-TARGET PROJECTILE GUNS: Low - Very High Combo Duration, Medium - High Counter Per Hit
AOE-FIRING/LAUNCHER GUNS: Low- Medium Combo Duration, Very Low Counter Per Hit

[FoxFX]

This will be my final post on this particular feedback with the little activity on the subject. I will proceed with some more "content" stuff I have stored up in time.

[FoxFX]

I may return to this topic once the Devstream today ends.

[Famecans]

I've supported it for years.

can i suggest a minimal addition?

the counter can increase instantly if the hit target hasn't been hit recently, and it can't work with aoe.

the player will have to hit multiple targets to get the counter up efficiently, this makes impact damage useful as it will control the target in crowd until the counter additive cooldown.

[FoxFX]

On 2021-06-10 at 7:36 PM, Famecans said:

I've supported it for years.

can i suggest a minimal addition?

the counter can increase instantly if the hit target hasn't been hit recently, and it can't work with aoe.

the player will have to hit multiple targets to get the counter up efficiently, this makes impact damage useful as it will control the target in crowd until the counter additive cooldown.

I'll add the suggestion to the OP. I'm not sure if ti is possible to program that particular mechanic, but I think it is something worth experimenting.

[Teoarrk]

On 2021-06-11 at 1:36 AM, Famecans said:

the counter can increase instantly if the hit target hasn't been hit recently, and it can't work with aoe.

Maybe there could be a decaying hit efficiency based on number of hits and time since last hit? Unsure if the game has a check for the aoe part and the math could get pretty funky for the whole combo efficiency part.

[xyjsnw99]

Acane pistoleer was  the solution to  secondary weapons once, but now it's gone by the wind...

I think gun kill bonus  is also a  considerable way of combo system,  maybe you could discuss about it below

 

[FoxFX]

On 2021-06-13 at 8:00 PM, xyjsnw99 said:

Acane pistoleer was  the solution to  secondary weapons once, but now it's gone by the wind...

I think gun kill bonus  is also a  considerable way of combo system,  maybe you could discuss about it below

 

Gun kills could be a potential add on. I decided the on-hit combo style to encourage more skillful use of guns and rewarding the use of them more. With on kills, I felt there are some weapons that have a harder time killing enemies due to weird gimmicks they have or due to armor scaling. With on-hits, they are more consistent especially if it can reward more combos hitting vulnerable spots.

[FoxFX]

On 2021-06-12 at 10:03 AM, Teoarrk said:

Maybe there could be a decaying hit efficiency based on number of hits and time since last hit? Unsure if the game has a check for the aoe part and the math could get pretty funky for the whole combo efficiency part.

I believe the sniper weapons Komorex and Sporothrix has some explanation on how AOE attacks count for the combo system. In both weapons' example, the AOE does NOT register the combo counters for the sniper.

We could do the same for the guns but also make some exceptions as well.