More Ideas for Guns vs Melee Balancing

[Sevek7]

EDIT: By the way, if you like this idea, please consider making a reply. Even a short "Hey, this is a good start, will need more work, specifics, etc..." on topics you like will help to increase visibility, thus increasing the likelihood that a dev will read the things you like.

EDIT: Copying the TLDR at the top for easy visibility: TLDR: Noxify the other heavy units. Give them all resistance to melee & AOE with a weakpoint easily accessed by single target guns. Thereby giving guns a purposeful target instead of simply "competing with melee" on the same targets.

(If short on time, please just read what's in Bold for the general idea.) I'm glad to hear that DE intends to buff guns to make them viable in comparison to melee. Here is a general statement that I would like to be true for Warframe:

Players should be able to use whatever weapon(s) they want to complete missions without much trouble, but the most efficient way to play should be to combine guns and melee weapons in a fluid playstyle.

(Note: please lump AOE ranged weapons in with melee, and take "guns" to mean single target ranged weapons.) I think the biggest hurdle to achieving this is the following:

Guns are single target weapons, whereas melee and explosive guns are AOE weapons. 

This poses a problem because Warframe is a horde game. Even a single-target semi-auto weapon that kills every enemy in 1 shot is simply not viable in comparison to a weapon that hits many enemies at once. Guns also need downtime to reload, during which time the horde will make ground against you. So, the big question is:

How do you make single target weapons serve a useful purpose in a horde game? (Without nerfing melee/AOE)

I think the most satisfying answer to this question is to:

Include Priority Targets. These are single enemies that exist within the horde, but are a priority to take out fast because they are dangerous, due to some combination of their high damage, nearby enemy buffs, nearby player debuff, etc... Of course, these enemies already exist in Warframe (Grineer have Heavy Gunners, Bombards, Napalms, Infested have Ancients, Boilers, Corpus have Techs, etc... and Eximus of all types) but they are currently not priority targets - their buffs and debuffs go unnoticed, and they get wiped along with the rest of the horde! The only current in-game enemy that functions as a priority target is Nox, because Nox has massive damage reduction with a weakpoint that is most easily accessed by single target guns. So, I think we should lean into the standard set by Nox: 

Give all heavy units a significant resistance to melee & AOE damage, but a significant weakness to single target ranged weapons. That way, the most efficient method of playing the game is to use guns to shoot priority targets, and melee to wipe out the horde. 

A potential problem: A lot of players enjoy using melee exclusively. They would then struggle if the heavy units are given a melee resistance that is too large!

The Solution: So, melee weapons should still be able to take down the priority targets in a reasonable amount of time, but it should simply take longer than using a single target ranged weapon. 

Another potential problem: New players just starting out are unlikely to know about differing resistances on priority vs horde units.

The Solution: The melee & AOE resistance on priority targets should scale with level. For example, from level 1 -10, there is no resistance. Above those levels, the melee & AOE resistance scales from 0% at level 10 to X% at some level where the resistance caps. (Actual numbers would of course be determined by testing, here I'm just pitching the general rough idea - please don't focus on the level numbers I put in this example!) 

Some Comments: 

1) The melee & AOE resistance on priority targets does not have to be in the form of damage reduction for this to work. It could also be status resistance, status duration reduction, status caps (like on liches), crit resistance, etc... or a combination. However, my personal favorite is to go the way of the Nox: Adding massive damage reduction on the body but including a severe weakpoint that is easily accessible only by single target ranged weapons. 

2) Ideally, these priority targets would also pose a dangerous threat to the player, beyond what the horde alone poses. Warframe's damage system is a complicated jumble of resistances, so I think giving the priority targets simply a big damage buff would be pointless, as it would just shift the meta towards fewer and fewer "viable" frames. So, in the absence of an actual damage rework, I think this "threat" to the player should come in terms of enemy buffs / player debuffs. Exactly what those should be is, I think, better left for a totally separate discussion.

TLDR: Noxify the other heavy units. Give them all resistance to melee & AOE with a weakpoint easily accessed by single target guns. Thereby giving guns a purposeful target instead of simply "competing with melee" on the same targets.

(Also, I'm aware that Noxes can often still be wiped quite efficiently with melee builds, but nevertheless I think this is a good starting point.)

Please let me know if you think this is a good (or bad) idea. I'm happy to take suggestions and edit this post to include additional details based on responses. 

[LillyRaccune]

1 minute ago, Sevek7 said:

Give all heavy units a significant resistance to melee & AOE damage, but a significant weakness to single target ranged weapons. That way, the most efficient method of playing the game is to use guns to shoot priority targets, and melee to wipe out the horde. 

I like it. Makes sense to me and the situational and environmental awareness is important in a game like Warframe where mobility and situational-flexibility are king.

[Tyreaus]

I think there are a few areas where this could get complicated.

For example: what counts as an AoE weapon? Tombfinger kitguns technically have an AoE, but the secondary version has an AoE that's quite a bit smaller than something like the Lenz or Bramma. Same for the Opticor series. Conversely, the Nukor is a precision weapon that explicitly isn't single-target. Which of those count where?

Likewise, various ranged AoE weapons still carry enough precision to be able to target weak-points. The idea of a weakpoint does add a precision requirement that might knock melee down a notch or two, but as long as one is able to aim somewhat, AoE weapons can do just fine.

Likewise again, some non-AoE weapons might not have the accuracy required to make use of those weakpoints if they're too narrow. Full-auto weapon spreads can get pretty bonkers, after all.

Likewise yet again, some melee weapons are more single-target than others - compare rapiers to polearms for example. Their inability to aim keeps them at the same disadvantage as their wide-sweeping counterparts.

While there is a stated goal not to nerf weapons (I don't think that's really doable - at the end of the day, even something like this becomes a 'nerf' of sorts), perhaps something to consider (I'd say in addition to this idea) is different scaling of mob / priority units and adjustments on damage values with AoE weapons. Currently, something like the Lenz deals 600+ damage at base. A single-target equivalent in the Vectis deals ~300. Switching those values around, then having fodder units scale much less than their single-target counterparts, can create a clearer distinction: the AoE weapons deal less damage but do enough to clear out the adds, while the single-target weapons focus that mass of damage to the priority targets. This also allows weapon damages to be balanced based on a continuum of how AoE they are, allowing their balance to be wholly internal - even mathematical, if one works out range + falloff (if that's even kept) into a formula. Something like a Tombfinger secondary might deal more damage than a Bramma, but less than a Vectis. Semi-auto rifles can deal comparable damage to a Vectis, and auto rifles just a notch below that. So on and so forth.

(That also solves the player information problem by telling them the AoE stats and damage values in the stats screen.)

I think weakpoints are a good idea for gameplay challenge, but there seems to be quite a few head-scratchy moments that a binary AoE / non-AoE classification introduces. Nothing that can't be figured out, but I think there's an easier way.

I'd also like to add, either way: Increased weapon swap speeds. If we have priority targets, it should not take more time to swap to the specialized weapon than it takes to just beat the thing to death the old fashioned way. It shouldn't even be close. But given the current swap speed - it's not horrible but not great, either - the TTK on those enemies is going to get really rough for people relying on melee only. The faster weapon swap speeds are, the less that's an issue.

EDIT: To be clear, that's not to say AoE weapons should get nerfed, but more to say that the power relationship should look more like AoE < Single-Target. The current damage numbers point to the exact opposite of this.

[Sevek7]

9 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

I like it. Makes sense to me and the situational and environmental awareness is important in a game like Warframe where mobility and situational-flexibility are king.

Glad you like it!

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

For example: what counts as an AoE weapon? Tombfinger kitguns technically have an AoE, but the secondary version has an AoE that's quite a bit smaller than something like the Lenz or Bramma. Same for the Opticor series. Conversely, the Nukor is a precision weapon that explicitly isn't single-target. Which of those count where?

Yes! Of course there will be a need to handle certain weapons on a case-by-case basis to make things work out (I greatly simplified the situation by lumping all weapons into two categories). You can do something like modify the AOE damage reduction based on AOE range / chain range or max targets, etc... Another good example is the Stahlta, which has an AOE secondary but single-target primary fire, so we would need to make sure the primary fire damage is not reduced while the secondary fire damage is reduced by an appropriate amount. Then there's the question: should mods like Firestorm modify this? Will we make a situation where it will actually be advantageous specifically to neglect that mod? Yikes! Not to mention, what I proposed would also have ramifications for several exalted weapons too. So these are all good points that would need to be worked out, but for the time being I'm just interested in presenting a "proof of principle" that single target weapons can have a reasonable place in horde games without being simply a niche. These finer details you mention will absolutely need to be worked out, but for the time being I think it's premature (and would likely require extensive testing too!)

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

While there is a stated goal not to nerf weapons (I don't think that's really doable - at the end of the day, even something like this becomes a 'nerf' of sorts), perhaps something to consider (I'd say in addition to this idea) is different scaling of mob / priority units and adjustments on damage values with AoE weapons. Currently, something like the Lenz deals 600+ damage at base. A single-target equivalent in the Vectis deals ~300. Switching those values around, then having fodder units scale much less than their single-target counterparts, can create a clearer distinction: the AoE weapons deal less damage but do enough to clear out the adds, while the single-target weapons focus that mass of damage to the priority targets. This also allows weapon damages to be balanced based on a continuum of how AoE they are, allowing their balance to be wholly internal - even mathematical, if one works out range + falloff (if that's even kept) into a formula. Something like a Tombfinger secondary might deal more damage than a Bramma, but less than a Vectis. Semi-auto rifles can deal comparable damage to a Vectis, and auto rifles just a notch below that. So on and so forth.

I like this too. I think a modification of how the entire game's enemies scale is probably a larger task than simply adding an extra layer to heavy units scaling as I suggested, but yes the principle ends up being basically the same! You're right that the bonus of this idea is that there will be less confusion for new players.

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

I'd also like to add, either way: Increased weapon swap speeds. If we have priority targets, it should not take more time to swap to the specialized weapon than it takes to just beat the thing to death the old fashioned way. It shouldn't even be close. But given the current swap speed - it's not horrible but not great, either - the TTK on those enemies is going to get really rough for people relying on melee only. The faster weapon swap speeds are, the less that's an issue.

Strong agreement on this! The weapon swap speeds should feel fast and fluid. Of course, weapon swap speed between gun and melee is already instantaneous, but you're right that swapping between primary and secondary should be fast as well for those who use AOE guns. 

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

EDIT: To be clear, that's not to say AoE weapons should get nerfed, but more to say that the power relationship should look more like AoE < Single-Target. The current damage numbers point to the exact opposite of this.

Yeah I'm with you on this too. I think there should be a place for single target semi auto weapons in the game. But AkLex Prime does a fraction of the damage of a Catchmoon kitgun to a single target, while Catchmoon hits the whole enemy squad. AOE weapons are fun, but since they're hitting the whole enemy squad in one hit, they should do less damage than their single target counterparts. 

[Yamazuki]

The issue isn't single target vs aoe, we already have content that favors single target damage. The issue is, a lot of weapons regardless of whether it's hordes or one target wont be used. Their DPS is too low to compete with aoe when dealing with groups, and their single target dps is too low to compete with the burst weapons.

Then there's, as usual, other stats being ignored. Kuva Bramma isn't good only because it does enough damage to instantly delete things, and happens to hit multiple targets. Kuva Bramma is an aoe explosive bow with extremely short charge time compared to other charge bows, and bows generally don't have much of a delay between shots other than required charging, and with the nature of bows, there's no traditional reload.

In a game about mass-obliterating enemies, there's no room to follow the rules of other generic shooters. Having multiple second reload timers make sense in games where a mission consists of killing a few enemies and hiding behind cover often, but in a game like Warframe, that's too long and we run around, unless you're a camper, or use abilities as a means of damage mitigation. Even equipping Primed-Reload speed mods on some weapons, the reload times on them feel insanely long compared to the time it takes to empty out, and even with the mod, the time spent reloading means a room was cleared. More actions need to be allowed during a reload too.

There's also an imbalance in damage between different levels of range. Short range weapons often do little damage compared to longer range weapons, which is another reason K-Bramma is good, it isn't limited to short range.

"Precision" is something else to consider, good guns don't need headshots, and yet, there's bonus damage tied to it, some mods tied to it, and arcanes tied to it. For any non-boss content, hitting weak points shouldn't even be a consideration for damage.

[Sevek7]

6 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

The issue isn't single target vs aoe, we already have content that favors single target damage.

That's correct. We have content that favors AOE, and we have separate content that favors single target damage. What I'm proposing is that there should be content that simultaneously favors both! That is something that doesn't currently exist in the game. 

6 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

The issue is, a lot of weapons regardless of whether it's hordes or one target wont be used. Their DPS is too low to compete with aoe when dealing with groups, and their single target dps is too low to compete with the burst weapons.

Yes, this certainly is an issue. But it's been addressed by plenty of other topics here and DE has stated they're already working on this. So I didn't want to make this topic about that as well.

6 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

Then there's, as usual, other stats being ignored. Kuva Bramma isn't good only because it does enough damage to instantly delete things, and happens to hit multiple targets. Kuva Bramma is an aoe explosive bow with extremely short charge time compared to other charge bows, and bows generally don't have much of a delay between shots other than required charging, and with the nature of bows, there's no traditional reload.

In a game about mass-obliterating enemies, there's no room to follow the rules of other generic shooters. Having multiple second reload timers make sense in games where a mission consists of killing a few enemies and hiding behind cover often, but in a game like Warframe, that's too long and we run around, unless you're a camper, or use abilities as a means of damage mitigation. Even equipping Primed-Reload speed mods on some weapons, the reload times on them feel insanely long compared to the time it takes to empty out, and even with the mod, the time spent reloading means a room was cleared. More actions need to be allowed during a reload too.

Yes, I agree that reload times should definitely be shortened, as well as weapon swap speed. You're right that it feels out of place in Warframe!

6 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

"Precision" is something else to consider, good guns don't need headshots, and yet, there's bonus damage tied to it, some mods tied to it, and arcanes tied to it. For any non-boss content, hitting weak points shouldn't even be a consideration for damage.

This is where I disagree with you. I think the line between "boss" and "horde" should be blurred. I want to see heavy units feel like "minibosses" that reward precision shots to weakpoints. I think spending a long time lining up precision shots over and over again is exhausting, just the same as spending 20 minutes mashing melee is exhausting. So that's why I want to see a mix, where you can melee (or bramma) the horde but then quickly take a precision shot to eliminate a priority target. I think this kind of fluid back-and-forth between single-target and AOE would be a really fun way to optimally play the game.