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"It's to easy."


(PSN)thorfinn01

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13 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Just one? This is worth more than that

1833733399_1GG.jpg

If you meant to say bait... well, those are spoons. You need a pic of a hook with a nice juicy shrimp hooked on.

 

18 minutes ago, Ailia_Grimm said:

umhbc.jpg

This is the most ironic "Don't take the bait meme". Puffer fish will eat literally anything... including bare hooks with no bait.

They are really cute and inquisitive animals though (and they can will themselves volumetrically larger!).

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9 hours ago, (PSN)Hikuro-93 said:

It's a pretty interesting loop, of a system eternally doomed to fail because it aims to please two opposing parties.

I mean, other games please two opposing parties perfectly well.

The biggest difference is that what Warframe tries to do to be difficult and what other games try to do to be difficult aren't the same..


An example is Final Fantasy XIV - there are raids and trials released with every expansion that come in a normal "story" mode and also extreme / savage versions and they manage to cater to casual and hardcore players alike. The difference isn't that the boss just gains levels or hits harder,. The bosses gain new moves, more complex mechanics, some of the rules change (Less ground indicators or no ground indicators), and some things players can normally use to cheese content like stunning a crowd of enemies will just stop working.

Warframe never, ever actually gets harder to play aside from enemies having higher numbers on their stats - there's no mode where your enemies are smarter, more capable or more numerous and cheese strats are basically always on the table, your enemies never improve their abilities to counter them. We only have 1 difficulty level with regards to enemy capabilities, ever - everything is just numbers..

I mean, I agree with you that it's doomed to fail, but it's basically because of Warframe's design, other games definitely highlight that you can make content work well for players who want different game experiences..

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1 minute ago, Grey_Days said:

I mean, other games please two opposing parties perfectly well.

The biggest difference is that what Warframe tries to do to be difficult and what other games try to do to be difficult aren't the same..


An example is Final Fantasy XIV - there are raids and trials released with every expansion that come in a normal "story" mode and also extreme / savage versions and they manage to cater to casual and hardcore players alike. The difference isn't that the boss just gains levels or hits harder,. The bosses gain new moves, more complex mechanics, some of the rules change (Less ground indicators or no ground indicators), and some things players can normally use to cheese content like stunning a crowd of enemies will just stop working.

Warframe never, ever actually gets harder to play aside from enemies having higher numbers on their stats - there's no mode where your enemies are smarter, more capable or more numerous and cheese strats are basically always on the table, your enemies never improve their abilities to counter them. We only have 1 difficulty level with regards to enemy capabilities, ever - everything is just numbers..

I mean, I agree with you that it's doomed to fail, but it's basically because of Warframe's design, other games definitely highlight that you can make content work well for players who want different game experiences..

I think another big aspect of this problem is that progression in WF is designed more for monetization, and progression has become increasingly non-linear over the years. 

You don't just "level up" in WF, you branch off in a billion different directions, and more than anything you "rank up" just by... using different stuff... by branching out like a kid with ADD trying to have a conversation about his favorite stuff. 

In an MMO it is so much easier to both seperate hardcores from casuals, and seperate people by power level, and even implement level scaling for lower zones, and it all makes sense and is relatively easy to balance, because it is one toon per account and progression is mostly tied to that single toon, it's abilites, and the armor and weapons you give it. 

We can change class on our account any time we want, our only universal progression really are mods and arcanes, but even then only to a certain extent as plenty of them are specific to one type of gear, or situation, etc. 

In a game balanced around monetization like WF, it is no surprise it is almost impossible to find actual balance when it comes to difficulty. 

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I am not sure how serious this is but the game is too easy, it has been for a long time and the it's effect bleeds onto other gameplay elements. Way back then when players did not have that many mods to stack on and the game phase was slower, more methodological and difficult the team benefitted greatly from the likes of Trinity or any CC they could muster up. There was a time when Vauban was released he was the king because of his CC.

As things evolved, players got stronger and stronger and the game became easier and easier the need for things like supportive abilities by the likes of healing or CC became less and less necessary. Now everyone knows, even the developers do, that the game formula is exclusively about killing as many as as fast as possible. They don't explicitly make it that way in their design but that is how it goes. All the utility you could ever possibly need to counter any circumstance you have a tool for that on top. After that what is left other than damage?

True 'back-in-the-days-of-old' can be somewhat mimicked by building poorly or half-way trough purposely but honestly that is not good gameplay design. It isn't because 'oh you just want to make the game harder', it actually hampers many other gameplay mechanics in an unhealthy way and clearly the formula is not good for the games lifespan longevity.

"After grinding out 67 Axi A11 Relics, 6700 void traces (averaging 10 per mission) to make them all Radiant, grinding them all open to finally get 1 neuroptics BP!?!?!"

On a footnote probability statistics of RNG have nothing to do with game difficulty. It has to do with durability, how long it takes to get things. When primes were first introduced I grinded Reaper Prime for 6 months before getting what I needed (no trading back then). This is not to minimize your experience OP, but the point is it was not difficult but about enduring the duration it took to finally obtain all the necessary components.
 

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10 hours ago, MouadSaqui said:

So you're saying RNG is the difficulty of warframe, right ? I mean people don't understand what we mean we when we ask for difficulty, there is a big difference between killing enemies fast bcs you have a Godlike riven, and killing enemies fast bcs you are skilled, the game is easy in my opinion only bcs it doesn't require skills, most of the time you're just spamming one button casting your nuke frame 4th ability, apart from Eidolon hunt, The game is nothing hard in my opinion, even Getting grendel missions can be cheesed if you have enough knowledge of the game, so yeah, When people ask for difficult content, its not always a call for Nerfs, maybe DE should start considering some hard bosses, that actually don't get oneshotted no matter what button you smash!

Most of the bosses in the game currently can’t be one shot.

🤷

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8 minutes ago, BETAOPTICS said:

I am not sure how serious this is but the game is too easy, it has been for a long time and the it's effect bleeds onto other gameplay elements. Way back then when players did not have that many mods to stack on and the game phase was slower, more methodological and difficult the team benefitted greatly from the likes of Trinity or any CC they could muster up. There was a time when Vauban was released he was the king because of his CC.

As things evolved, players got stronger and stronger and the game became easier and easier the need for things like supportive abilities by the likes of healing or CC became less and less necessary. Now everyone knows, even the developers do, that the game formula is exclusively about killing as many as as fast as possible. They don't explicitly make it that way in their design but that is how it goes. All the utility you could ever possibly need to counter any circumstance you have a tool for that on top. After that what is left other than damage?

True 'back-in-the-days-of-old' can be somewhat mimicked by building poorly or half-way trough purposely but honestly that is not good gameplay design. It isn't because 'oh you just want to make the game harder', it actually hampers many other gameplay mechanics in an unhealthy way and clearly the formula is not good for the games lifespan longevity.

"After grinding out 67 Axi A11 Relics, 6700 void traces (averaging 10 per mission) to make them all Radiant, grinding them all open to finally get 1 neuroptics BP!?!?!"

On a footnote probability statistics of RNG have nothing to do with game difficulty. It has to do with durability, how long it takes to get things. When primes were first introduced I grinded Reaper Prime for 6 months before getting what I needed (no trading back then). This is not to minimize your experience OP, but the point is it was not difficult but about enduring the duration it took to finally obtain all the necessary components.
 

If you want a challenging experience, it’s entirely accessible to you. Warframe has enough customisation that you can play almost as whatever you want, and almost however you want.

If you find the content too easy, but you insist on taking your min maxed frames to do level 25-30 fissures... 🤷 

You can create whatever gaming experience you want.

An example I can give, that keeps the game engaging for me:

I play a lot of Mesa, and I really enjoy snipers. For the vast majority of content in this game I use snipers, simply because I enjoy them.

However, quite often I’ll get overwhelmed, and say the defence objective might get swarmed, in situations like that where plan A fails, I can fall back on Mesa’s 4 as a plan B.

It, for me at least, feels more impactful than sitting in turret mode and playing content that way.

If I watched someone playing a game like that, spamming 4 and they said to me “this is boring.” My immediate response would be, “are you sure it’s not you that’s boring?”

 

You have more than enough tools to create the experience you want to have, without trying to force the developers to cater to your specific tastes.

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There is a difference between challenge and difficulty. Warframe can be difficult, but its almost never challenging. And its challenge that makes games fun and interesting to play, not just difficulty alone.

For example: Take a D20, call out a number on it, and roll it. There is a 5% chance it will land on the number you chose. So, its difficult to predict what you will roll, and will most likely taker several attempts before you succeed. But its not challenging, because none of the actions you take in the process are hard to accomplish. Rolling the die, and picking a number isn't complicated, or very hard. If you had to spin the die and balance it on one finger, then toss it into a small cup on the other side of the room, that would be challenging.

Warframe's difficulty relies almost entirely on "challenges" that are really just dice rolls like that. Like opening relics, or getting rare loot drops. And again, these aren't very challenging. The actions you take to get to those dice rolls aren't hard to pull off, because of how easily we can become overpowered. If you bring your nigh invulnerable frame and godly riven equipped guns to a mission, it is extremely unlikely that you will ever fail to to get to the end, and roll the dice. But, you have to do it many, many times thanks to the super low chances of rolling the right number.

Bringing super weak gear will make missions more difficult, and can even make them a bit more challenging. But all that usually happens is enemies take longer to kill, and you die faster. Which, again, isn't really challenge, its just difficulty. It doesn't make fighting enemies any more complicated, you just have to hold the trigger down longer than you would otherwise. Or stop to use health pads more often.

Plus, even though this is an option, its not a choice any well designed game should be asking its players to make. The most efficient/effective way to play should also be the most fun. You shouldn't even be able to choose between the two, because they should be the same thing.

But as long as DE keeps giving us more power to grind for, with no reason to have said power, this will never change. There will never be balance in Warframe while anyone can take the entire massive spectrum of gear into any mission at any time. And without balance, there can't be challenge, either. Because there is no way to make an enemy be challenging to someone that can do 300 DPS, and another that can do 300,000,000 DPS at the same time.

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1 hour ago, Grey_Days said:

I mean, other games please two opposing parties perfectly well.

The biggest difference is that what Warframe tries to do to be difficult and what other games try to do to be difficult aren't the same..


An example is Final Fantasy XIV - there are raids and trials released with every expansion that come in a normal "story" mode and also extreme / savage versions and they manage to cater to casual and hardcore players alike. The difference isn't that the boss just gains levels or hits harder,. The bosses gain new moves, more complex mechanics, some of the rules change (Less ground indicators or no ground indicators), and some things players can normally use to cheese content like stunning a crowd of enemies will just stop working.

Warframe never, ever actually gets harder to play aside from enemies having higher numbers on their stats - there's no mode where your enemies are smarter, more capable or more numerous and cheese strats are basically always on the table, your enemies never improve their abilities to counter them. We only have 1 difficulty level with regards to enemy capabilities, ever - everything is just numbers..

I mean, I agree with you that it's doomed to fail, but it's basically because of Warframe's design, other games definitely highlight that you can make content work well for players who want different game experiences..

I really like what you said here , I made a post earlier on the precautions DE should take when buffing the ranged weapons catalog without addressing the difficulty. 
 

I really would like changes to steel path where it’s actually like what you said here . They could even make a steel path 2. Which would literally just be ng+2 . 

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vor 4 Minuten schrieb CurseOfFilth:

Load of crock. Your point counters itself because your demand for nerfs undermines my farming and time spent on those mods, weapons, arcanes and warframes.

Me. Me. Me. That's the common denominator of you anti-nerf-fundamentalists, isn't it? It's always about you, never about what makes the game better. Just me, me, me. That's why you think he' a shill. Because you can't comprehend why someone would make an argument that wasn't entirely egostistical and self-serving, so you're desperately trying to find how he personally profits.

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2 minutes ago, CurseOfFilth said:

Load of crock. Your point counters itself because your demand for nerfs undermines my farming and time spent on those mods, weapons, arcanes and warframes. Are you a shill running on a script? Because I've seen this same excuse whenever someone like OP points out you can nerf YOURSELF. You have a problem with this, but have no issues demanding nerfs for the rest of us.

I’m not demanding any nerfs . No one is even saying that . I think you replied to the wrong person .

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10 hours ago, wolfsilver00 said:

Thats the point of something hard my dude, when something is hard you are hindered or restricted.

you misunderstood me, The point of something hard is to be hindered or restricted, not to have to hinder or restrict yourself, that shows the game is so easy you need to go out of your way to make it harder on you.

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My only complaint about getting Grendel was that it didn't introduce anything new. No new mechanics, game type etc. Just basically sorting out bad from good players who know what frames to take and how to use them.. considering builds like Nova, which require you to use mods to completely change her behavior and how she's played(slowva/speedva)... But now with the Helminth system, I can only assume how much easier it actually got. I refuse to farm Grendel again and just let my Helminth eat him. That was too much of a headache

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12 hours ago, (PSN)thorfinn01 said:

I'm getting really tired of hearing this catchphrase so if you think it's so easy here are some quick steps for you to follow:

1.  Sell off your Warframes / weapons that have forma in them and replace them with zero forma builds.

Still to easy?

2. Take off all your mods.

Lets face it, no one complains that acquiring Grendal is 'to easy' do they.

Besides, if you think killing enemies needs to be the hard part, you're probably not playing Warframe, you're just spending Plat. The actual hard part as you progress through the game is getting anything of actual value to drop. For example:

After grinding out 67 Axi A11 Relics, 6700 void traces (averaging 10 per mission) to make them all Radiant, grinding them all open to finally get 1 neuroptics BP!?!?!

Yeah, tell me again how 'easy kills' is the problem.

"Go play with both hands tied to your back while you hang down from a rope, because it's not the developer's job to offer challenge levels that match the tools they themselves give you".

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Just now, Jarriaga said:

"Go play with both hands tied to your back while you hang down from a rope, because it's not the developer's job to offer challenge evels that match the tools they themselves give you".

Every time I hear someone counter the "WF is too easy" with "equip all four dragon keys and take off your mods" I cannot facepalm hard enough. 

I immediately know I never need to take that person seriously again. 

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vor 57 Minuten schrieb CurseOfFilth:

You want to call us selfish when at the end of the day we mind our own business and

I call you selfish because of your selfish arguments. I think I made that clear. If you want me to think that you're not egotistical and selfish, how about you tell me why what you want makes the game better instead of how it benefits you.

vor 57 Minuten schrieb CurseOfFilth:

Calling us selfish lol, DE gives you the ability to customize your builds to the degree of endo you put into a mod and can use this mechanic to nerf yourself to YOUR desired gameplay while we keep to ours as I'm sure you'd leave my pub. You really remind me of trolls that demand nerfs for the sake of chaos.

I really don't know why so many people are too dense to understand this, but equipment choice is part of the game. When you're telling me that I can nerf myself by intentionally chosing bad gear, i.e. intentionally playing bad, all you're doing is telling me that you fully understand that the game is broken and without challenge.

If you want it easy, that's fine by me - I'm not sure that's a problem that can be fixed anyway - but please stop telling me that I can make the game challenging by playing bad, because that just completely missing the point.

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16 hours ago, CurseOfFilth said:

Load of crock. Your point counters itself because your demand for nerfs undermines my farming and time spent on those mods, weapons, arcanes and warframes. Are you a shill running on a script? Because I've seen this same excuse whenever someone like OP points out you can nerf YOURSELF. You have a problem with this, but have no issues demanding nerfs for the rest of us.

No one is asking for any of the options to become useless, though. People are just saying that maybe a 100x (or more) factor of difference in DPS between min/maxed builds and normal ones is a tad excessive, that being completely immortal and untouchable is tad excessive, that most options in the game being completely useless in comparison to meta picks is simply not healthy, that enemy units as bland and non-threatening as the ones we have is not engaging. No one will take your toys away, you are acting as if balancing the game will delete all your progress. 

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1 hour ago, CurseOfFilth said:

Why don't you take your own advice and

"Go to recruit channel"

Because this would solve absolutely nothing. It would merely be ignoring the problem, not fixing it. And, as I said, we shouldn't have to do things like this to make the game fun. If playing with PUGs is so broken that no one should do it, then why is it even an option?

1 hour ago, CurseOfFilth said:

Load of crock. Your point counters itself because your demand for nerfs undermines my farming and time spent on those mods, weapons, arcanes and warframes. Are you a shill running on a script? Because I've seen this same excuse whenever someone like OP points out you can nerf YOURSELF. You have a problem with this, but have no issues demanding nerfs for the rest of us.

You know what? I already "nerf myself" as you suggest. In fact, this is one of the main reasons I barely play Warframe at all anymore. There is so much gear that I don't use in this game, that I have completely stopped caring about grinding for anything new at all. Because what's the point of spending all the time and effort it takes to grind for stuff if you aren't ever going to use it? But, without grinding for new gear, there is no point in playing anymore. Because that's all that's left for me to do.

So, tell us again how nerfing ourselves fixes everything.

And while you're at it, how about you tell us exactly how we should nerf ourselves. What is the proper amount of DPS and EHP to have against level 30 enemies? What about level 50? Or 100? What exact mod and gear combos should we use to achieve those numbers? What is the proper TTK for a Grineer Lancer? What about a Corpus Technician? Or any other enemies? What should their TTK be against us?

Since you seem to be so certain that this is a perfect fix, you must do it yourself. So I can only assume you have all these answers for us. So why not share, and help your fellow players out?

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43 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

There is so much gear that I don't use in this game, that I have completely stopped caring about grinding for anything new at all. Because what's the point of spending all the time and effort it takes to grind for stuff if you aren't ever going to use it?

It's interesting to see you making this point, because it goes directly to the counter-point of OP.

OP is saying 'if you find it too easy, then nerf yourself'.

Everyone else is countering with 'We shouldn't have to nerf ourselves, the high level gear is supposed to serve a purpose, we need actual challenge, that's why we say it's too easy'.

And then you, who seem to agree with OP, back up our point by saying 'nerfing myself is something I do, and it's why I barely play anymore'.

It makes reading your earlier comments very interesting.

How about this;

Rather than nerfing ourselves at all, DE needs a systemic change to the way we approach enemies.

You see, no matter what the enemies are on screen, whether they're heavy, chargers, sappers, snipers or specialists, not a single one of them is supposed to be engaged with for more than a second.

As a Horde Shooter model, the rewards for killing any one enemy are miniscule, barely any difference between any of them (apart from the type of, say, mod or resource they can drop), and the objectives of the game mean that they shouldn't even be on-screen individually for more than a few attacks. Survival, Defense, Exterminate, any of the missions that rely on us killing the enemies to succeed all focus on condensing our interaction time with those enemies to the minimum.

Any of the missions that don't rely on us killing the enemies directly, like Mobile Defense or Spy where we can equally ignore the enemies or control them, allow us to succeed without ever even having interacted with the enemies beyond throwing an ability in their general direction.

The fault of the combat in Warframe is that we, the players, do not engage with the enemy enough. We don't have to learn a pattern of what each enemy does and what we do to kill it. Every single one can be taken on the same way, near enough.

So what DE needs to do is focus on Engagement.

How long does each enemy need to hold our attention, what does it do that extends that engagement time, what do we have to do to reduce our engagement time, what patterns can we learn and iterate on that allows a certain amount of skill to be involved, and how can we buff enemies to interrupt those patterns and make us develop new ones?

A basic charger unit? Fodder. Kill it quickly with Melee. Several charger units that spread out more so you can't kill them quickly? Group them with an ability, kill them quickly with Melee. But now there's a Heavy unit that has a ranged attack, and it moves at a different speed so we now have to balance between killing the threatening enemy and killing the charger enemies that are spreading out. Does our grouping ability work on the heavy unit as well as on the chargers? Does the heavy unit have a function that stops us from using a form of attack (like melee)? Give us options, give us enemies that limit those options, and make us use our options more sequentially, more based on what the enemies can actually do to us.

I want to be clear, this is not AI, as all of the elements that the game's AI needs are already in the game, they just need to be more reliably triggered.

For example, little things like the Shield carrying enemies being vulnerable to Punch Through and AoE? Why not fix that so that these enemies are legitimate inhibitors to us dealing damage? They turn to put the shield between us and them, and we have to be more intelligent with that. An enemy with a Heavy Weapon that spools up and fires in our direction? Why not have that heavy weapon actually push us back if we're trying to rush forwards, meaning that melee blocking keeps us alive, but means we can't close the gap and actually attack them, so ranged weapons would be better.

Enemies like the Nox that have a single weak point and massive damage reduction on everywhere else are great, so why does that DR not apply when we use fully ramped up Melee weapons? And with the stuns and staggers in Melee combos, that means the more nasty part of the Nox (the charge and knock down) can't trigger so we basically wobble them to death.

We have Grineer units that deploy attack dogs/cats, but the attack animations and limited functions of the enemy versions of those mean they're just slightly harder to hit charger units. They have units that disarm us, units that teleport behind us, units that will knock us down and maul us while also teleporting away if we do too much damage, units that have flame throwers, units that will do ground-pounds to push us away, units that will latch onto us and sap us, units that cause lingering problems when we die, units that create domes of protection against our attacks, units that release waves of damaging knock-down and buff enemy health... All of these things exist in the game, and yet DE are scared to make them actually affect us properly.

Because their systems are built not to reward us for actually letting them do that.

Killing a Heavy should grant legitimately more reward, and more reliably grant rewards, than killing fodder enemies. The same with specialists, snipers and so on. Targeting them should have a legitimate effect on the battlefield, because their presence is an actual threat.

The same with the Corpus and the Infested, we have so many different enemy types, and those different enemy types do legitimately interesting things, and have the AI programming to actually execute them against us, but because DE has never rewarded engagement with those enemies, we just mow them down.

There is no functional reason for us to treat the enemies differently depending on which enemy we're facing, and so that's why the game is so easy...

And that's what DE needs to fix.

We don't need nerfs in the form of damage decrease or speed decrease.

We need nerfs of having to actually take the time to kill enemies deliberately, sequentially, based on their threat on the battlefield. Not as incidental splashes of gore while we watch the icons for Life Support packs to appear.

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7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It's interesting to see you making this point, because it goes directly to the counter-point of OP.

OP is saying 'if you find it too easy, then nerf yourself'.

Everyone else is countering with 'We shouldn't have to nerf ourselves, the high level gear is supposed to serve a purpose, we need actual challenge, that's why we say it's too easy'.

And then you, who seem to agree with OP, back up our point by saying 'nerfing myself is something I do, and it's why I barely play anymore'.

It makes reading your earlier comments very interesting.

How about this;

Rather than nerfing ourselves at all, DE needs a systemic change to the way we approach enemies.

You see, no matter what the enemies are on screen, whether they're heavy, chargers, sappers, snipers or specialists, not a single one of them is supposed to be engaged with for more than a second.

As a Horde Shooter model, the rewards for killing any one enemy are miniscule, barely any difference between any of them (apart from the type of, say, mod or resource they can drop), and the objectives of the game mean that they shouldn't even be on-screen individually for more than a few attacks. Survival, Defense, Exterminate, any of the missions that rely on us killing the enemies to succeed all focus on condensing our interaction time with those enemies to the minimum.

Any of the missions that don't rely on us killing the enemies directly, like Mobile Defense or Spy where we can equally ignore the enemies or control them, allow us to succeed without ever even having interacted with the enemies beyond throwing an ability in their general direction.

The fault of the combat in Warframe is that we, the players, do not engage with the enemy enough. We don't have to learn a pattern of what each enemy does and what we do to kill it. Every single one can be taken on the same way, near enough.

So what DE needs to do is focus on Engagement.

How long does each enemy need to hold our attention, what does it do that extends that engagement time, what do we have to do to reduce our engagement time, what patterns can we learn and iterate on that allows a certain amount of skill to be involved, and how can we buff enemies to interrupt those patterns and make us develop new ones?

A basic charger unit? Fodder. Kill it quickly with Melee. Several charger units that spread out more so you can't kill them quickly? Group them with an ability, kill them quickly with Melee. But now there's a Heavy unit that has a ranged attack, and it moves at a different speed so we now have to balance between killing the threatening enemy and killing the charger enemies that are spreading out. Does our grouping ability work on the heavy unit as well as on the chargers? Does the heavy unit have a function that stops us from using a form of attack (like melee)? Give us options, give us enemies that limit those options, and make us use our options more sequentially, more based on what the enemies can actually do to us.

I want to be clear, this is not AI, as all of the elements that the game's AI needs are already in the game, they just need to be more reliably triggered.

For example, little things like the Shield carrying enemies being vulnerable to Punch Through and AoE? Why not fix that so that these enemies are legitimate inhibitors to us dealing damage? They turn to put the shield between us and them, and we have to be more intelligent with that. An enemy with a Heavy Weapon that spools up and fires in our direction? Why not have that heavy weapon actually push us back if we're trying to rush forwards, meaning that melee blocking keeps us alive, but means we can't close the gap and actually attack them, so ranged weapons would be better.

Enemies like the Nox that have a single weak point and massive damage reduction on everywhere else are great, so why does that DR not apply when we use fully ramped up Melee weapons? And with the stuns and staggers in Melee combos, that means the more nasty part of the Nox (the charge and knock down) can't trigger so we basically wobble them to death.

We have Grineer units that deploy attack dogs/cats, but the attack animations and limited functions of the enemy versions of those mean they're just slightly harder to hit charger units. They have units that disarm us, units that teleport behind us, units that will knock us down and maul us while also teleporting away if we do too much damage, units that have flame throwers, units that will do ground-pounds to push us away, units that will latch onto us and sap us, units that cause lingering problems when we die, units that create domes of protection against our attacks, units that release waves of damaging knock-down and buff enemy health... All of these things exist in the game, and yet DE are scared to make them actually affect us properly.

Because their systems are built not to reward us for actually letting them do that.

Killing a Heavy should grant legitimately more reward, and more reliably grant rewards, than killing fodder enemies. The same with specialists, snipers and so on. Targeting them should have a legitimate effect on the battlefield, because their presence is an actual threat.

The same with the Corpus and the Infested, we have so many different enemy types, and those different enemy types do legitimately interesting things, and have the AI programming to actually execute them against us, but because DE has never rewarded engagement with those enemies, we just mow them down.

There is no functional reason for us to treat the enemies differently depending on which enemy we're facing, and so that's why the game is so easy...

And that's what DE needs to fix.

We don't need nerfs in the form of damage decrease or speed decrease.

We need nerfs of having to actually take the time to kill enemies deliberately, sequentially, based on their threat on the battlefield. Not as incidental splashes of gore while we watch the icons for Life Support packs to appear.

You make some really good suggestions. This is the kind of thing most shooters do. Especially old ones, like the original Doom. They came up with ways to differentiate each enemy that made them different threat priorities. So any time the player entered a new room, and saw a new big group of monsters, they would have to quickly asses what was the biggest threat, and engage properly. Do you go for the one big guy first, to remove the biggest threat as fast as possible? If you do, the swarm of little guys will be harassing you the entire time. Or do you clear out the little guys first, since they go down fast? If you do, the big guy will be attacking you the entire time. What weapon do you use? How far away is each threat? Is it best to run in and get close? Or should you stay back and pick a few off from long range first?

This is a big part of what makes these seemingly simple retro shooters so much fun. But, DE can't do anything like that until they actually make the changes that would allow anything to actually pose a threat to us at all. If you could simply equip better gear and overpower everything in Doom, like you can in Warframe, then none of this would matter there, either. You pretty much can with cheat codes, like invincibility and infinite BFG ammo. But that isn't the intended way to play, and it also gets boring pretty fast. Yet, Warframe basically lets you do the same thing, without cheating, and actually actively encourages you to do it.

But, they also need to do it in a way that doesn't just turn everything into a massive damage sponge. That's what most looter shooters like Warframe tend to do to add "challenge". And its what DE has done in the past. Like with the Wolf of Saturn Six. But, simply making something take longer to kill doesn't make it more fun, or challenging, to fight. As I said before, that's just difficulty, not challenge. And difficulty without challenge is usually really boring.

Also, the random spawns are always going to be a big obstacle in making actual interesting fights. One of the main things that makes the encounters in something like Doom so varied is the enemy placement. The level creators were able to place enemies exactly where they wanted for each fight. So they could create specific combinations of monsters and terrain to tune the challenges just the way they wanted. But, obviously DE can't do that, since both maps and enemies are randomly generated. They can't specifically put snipers far away, and melee units up close every time. And they can't plan out specific combos, like putting Snipers covered by Nullifiers together in a tower far away. Or blocking a specific choke point with a phalanx of Shield Lancers with Scorpions behind it. Whenever an interesting combo actually spawns together, its just pure luck that it happened.

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7 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

Also, the random spawns are always going to be a big obstacle in making actual interesting fights. One of the main things that makes the encounters in something like Doom so varied is the enemy placement. The level creators were able to place enemies exactly where they wanted for each fight. So they could create specific combinations of monsters and terrain to tune the challenges just the way they wanted. But, obviously DE can't do that, since both maps and enemies are randomly generated. They can't specifically put snipers far away, and melee units up close every time. And they can't plan out specific combos, like putting Snipers covered by Nullifiers together in a tower far away. Or blocking a specific choke point with a phalanx of Shield Lancers with Scorpions behind it. Whenever an interesting combo actually spawns together, its just pure luck that it happened.

Plains of Eidolon's indicated that's actually possible already, DE just kind of... don't do it?

Depending on the level, there's always 1-2 snipers in sniper towers on PoE, which indicates that they have special spawning behaviours that will put them there. Presumably, it's not impossible to retroactively (or maybe for future tilesets) to do something similar. Put in a spawn point on potential sniper towers and make it so that only sniper class enemies spawn there. Maybe some other similar things - individual rooms have a chance to spawn 'extra' enemies in addition to the generic chaff.

Blunts and Ramparts also show off that 'equipment' has specific spawn points that the AI could congregate around. This'd be particularly interesting with the Corpus - it's really weird that the 'tech' faction doesn't have any real use of gadgets outside of the ones they carry on their person. 

It's not as good as hand-made, but given the nature of Warframe, we can't really ever expect that.

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Glad you like the suggestions, and you're right about not making damage sponges. There does have to be an element of that, because we're massive damage dealers, but that's why making mechanics innate to the enemies that actively prevent one type of damage or another (such as player push-back from heavies to prevent melee until they reload, or shields that can't be broken to prevent frontal damage) is important to prevent the players from having easy kills.

But there is something that I'm actually a little more positive about;

7 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

Also, the random spawns are always going to be a big obstacle in making actual interesting fights

That's, to me, the opposite of a problem, since DE have what is often called 'squad spawning' and 'saturation spawning' of their units.

What this means is that initial spawns are based on a 'squad' of enemies, a set number of chargers, a set number of ranged, a set number of heavies and specialists. After that, if you kill one of those units, it triggers the spawns to send another one of those at the next opportunity. This will happen up until the enemies are capped out in number that the engine can support while we play.

This is why missions like Interception are interesting to me, because you can fully lock down the areas with Crowd Control and never really have to kill anything for the entire mission, if you're lucky. But the second you kill, say, a Bombard, another Heavy will spawn that will need to be CC'd like the rest.

In any case, this could mean that DE can leverage the system to have a consistent flow of the specific enemies we want and need to have in any given situation. They could even take it further to bring into account what we're actually doing to the enemies.

So are we using Drain-cost abilities to maintain a lot of damage? Spawn more energy leech style enemies (not necessarily just energy leech Eximus units, but other enemies that make using drain abilities more difficult to maintain. Are we nuking with radial abilities? Spawn more shield units. Are we boosting ranged weapon damage? More enemies with radial shields to protect their allies. Are we going ham with the melee? More enemies with push-back and control functions that prevent us from approaching.

The current, apparent, random spawns aren't actually all that random, and could be really worked on to give us more challenging combat without losing the fast, fluid switching of tactics that we have access to right now.

Although there is one fix that definitely needs to be implemented; despawning. Enemies in Warframe do not despawn if we move on from a location to enable spawning at the new locations. They reach the saturation point of how many can be there for the engine, and because they don't despawn we can run off into new tiles and completely forget about them. Or we have the opposite problem of wanting to go to a new location, like a Kuva Survival, and the enemies just aren't where we are so we lose momentum and life support.

Despawning is another fix we definitely need.

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On 2021-02-28 at 5:18 PM, Joezone619 said:

Great great great. Now tell me how to make the game harder... Without hindering or restricting myself in any way

thats a tough one as if we tell you to play a certain mission for difficulty because this game is just variations of exterminate or defence you will be locked in that type of game mode style during the mission (which is a restriction) and you stated you dont want that

you want the game to be harder even tho you have mastered tecniques like how to properly sheild gate on squishy frames or  nuke the area as you have mastered the art of modding your gear and are not one of the many that havent and just get the build online (which is like a pro golfer going to a kiddy theim park and saying the mini golf is too easy with all their skill that took months to aquire but as you said you dont want anything that hinders you in any way like a handicap so we cant sugest not doing that)

so bottom line we cant tell you how to make the game harder as our opinion would most likely be a restriction (e.g have you done a 2 hour high index run ...... that sugestion is restricting your frame choice as frames like zepher which you might feel like playing as are not that efficent it restricts your planet choice as index is on one node and it restricts your mission type to a sort of exterminate mission where the enimys have combination sheild and armor)

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I would love to see some big ass monster like in mmo called tera, where you would have to use games great movement system to avoid attacks etc. or get killed. Still you could just facetank them with some frames or just one shot them if you are powerfull enough, but they could make moves around that too. For now I think skill based combat is impossible and something devs dont even want to bring in to the game or never had, this game has so much potential but its kind of wasted in this never ending grinding simulator which leads to nowhere. I mean games' point feels like its to make your warframe, guns etc. as powerful as possible and its your goal for a long time in the game and when you get there after countless of hours you realize you had more fun in the game when you were mr1 and completely clueless and its never going to be nearly as good as it was then :(

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