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7 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

Also, the random spawns are always going to be a big obstacle in making actual interesting fights. One of the main things that makes the encounters in something like Doom so varied is the enemy placement. The level creators were able to place enemies exactly where they wanted for each fight. So they could create specific combinations of monsters and terrain to tune the challenges just the way they wanted. But, obviously DE can't do that, since both maps and enemies are randomly generated. They can't specifically put snipers far away, and melee units up close every time. And they can't plan out specific combos, like putting Snipers covered by Nullifiers together in a tower far away. Or blocking a specific choke point with a phalanx of Shield Lancers with Scorpions behind it. Whenever an interesting combo actually spawns together, its just pure luck that it happened.

Plains of Eidolon's indicated that's actually possible already, DE just kind of... don't do it?

Depending on the level, there's always 1-2 snipers in sniper towers on PoE, which indicates that they have special spawning behaviours that will put them there. Presumably, it's not impossible to retroactively (or maybe for future tilesets) to do something similar. Put in a spawn point on potential sniper towers and make it so that only sniper class enemies spawn there. Maybe some other similar things - individual rooms have a chance to spawn 'extra' enemies in addition to the generic chaff.

Blunts and Ramparts also show off that 'equipment' has specific spawn points that the AI could congregate around. This'd be particularly interesting with the Corpus - it's really weird that the 'tech' faction doesn't have any real use of gadgets outside of the ones they carry on their person. 

It's not as good as hand-made, but given the nature of Warframe, we can't really ever expect that.

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Glad you like the suggestions, and you're right about not making damage sponges. There does have to be an element of that, because we're massive damage dealers, but that's why making mechanics innate to the enemies that actively prevent one type of damage or another (such as player push-back from heavies to prevent melee until they reload, or shields that can't be broken to prevent frontal damage) is important to prevent the players from having easy kills.

But there is something that I'm actually a little more positive about;

7 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

Also, the random spawns are always going to be a big obstacle in making actual interesting fights

That's, to me, the opposite of a problem, since DE have what is often called 'squad spawning' and 'saturation spawning' of their units.

What this means is that initial spawns are based on a 'squad' of enemies, a set number of chargers, a set number of ranged, a set number of heavies and specialists. After that, if you kill one of those units, it triggers the spawns to send another one of those at the next opportunity. This will happen up until the enemies are capped out in number that the engine can support while we play.

This is why missions like Interception are interesting to me, because you can fully lock down the areas with Crowd Control and never really have to kill anything for the entire mission, if you're lucky. But the second you kill, say, a Bombard, another Heavy will spawn that will need to be CC'd like the rest.

In any case, this could mean that DE can leverage the system to have a consistent flow of the specific enemies we want and need to have in any given situation. They could even take it further to bring into account what we're actually doing to the enemies.

So are we using Drain-cost abilities to maintain a lot of damage? Spawn more energy leech style enemies (not necessarily just energy leech Eximus units, but other enemies that make using drain abilities more difficult to maintain. Are we nuking with radial abilities? Spawn more shield units. Are we boosting ranged weapon damage? More enemies with radial shields to protect their allies. Are we going ham with the melee? More enemies with push-back and control functions that prevent us from approaching.

The current, apparent, random spawns aren't actually all that random, and could be really worked on to give us more challenging combat without losing the fast, fluid switching of tactics that we have access to right now.

Although there is one fix that definitely needs to be implemented; despawning. Enemies in Warframe do not despawn if we move on from a location to enable spawning at the new locations. They reach the saturation point of how many can be there for the engine, and because they don't despawn we can run off into new tiles and completely forget about them. Or we have the opposite problem of wanting to go to a new location, like a Kuva Survival, and the enemies just aren't where we are so we lose momentum and life support.

Despawning is another fix we definitely need.

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On 2021-02-28 at 5:18 PM, Joezone619 said:

Great great great. Now tell me how to make the game harder... Without hindering or restricting myself in any way

thats a tough one as if we tell you to play a certain mission for difficulty because this game is just variations of exterminate or defence you will be locked in that type of game mode style during the mission (which is a restriction) and you stated you dont want that

you want the game to be harder even tho you have mastered tecniques like how to properly sheild gate on squishy frames or  nuke the area as you have mastered the art of modding your gear and are not one of the many that havent and just get the build online (which is like a pro golfer going to a kiddy theim park and saying the mini golf is too easy with all their skill that took months to aquire but as you said you dont want anything that hinders you in any way like a handicap so we cant sugest not doing that)

so bottom line we cant tell you how to make the game harder as our opinion would most likely be a restriction (e.g have you done a 2 hour high index run ...... that sugestion is restricting your frame choice as frames like zepher which you might feel like playing as are not that efficent it restricts your planet choice as index is on one node and it restricts your mission type to a sort of exterminate mission where the enimys have combination sheild and armor)

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I would love to see some big ass monster like in mmo called tera, where you would have to use games great movement system to avoid attacks etc. or get killed. Still you could just facetank them with some frames or just one shot them if you are powerfull enough, but they could make moves around that too. For now I think skill based combat is impossible and something devs dont even want to bring in to the game or never had, this game has so much potential but its kind of wasted in this never ending grinding simulator which leads to nowhere. I mean games' point feels like its to make your warframe, guns etc. as powerful as possible and its your goal for a long time in the game and when you get there after countless of hours you realize you had more fun in the game when you were mr1 and completely clueless and its never going to be nearly as good as it was then :(

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On 2021-02-28 at 6:26 AM, MouadSaqui said:

So you're saying RNG is the difficulty of warframe, right ? I mean people don't understand what we mean we when we ask for difficulty, there is a big difference between killing enemies fast bcs you have a Godlike riven, and killing enemies fast bcs you are skilled, the game is easy in my opinion only bcs it doesn't require skills, most of the time you're just spamming one button casting your nuke frame 4th ability, apart from Eidolon hunt, The game is nothing hard in my opinion, even Getting grendel missions can be cheesed if you have enough knowledge of the game, so yeah, When people ask for difficult content, its not always a call for Nerfs, maybe DE should start considering some hard bosses, that actually don't get oneshotted no matter what button you smash!

Please explain what a "hard boss" is to you. More health, damage, immunities and a resistance to damage? That's not hard. Are any of you going to explain what "difficulty" is to you?

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Progression games are sort of designed to become too easy. Your characters become more powerful as the years go on.

Warframe is semi-unique in that we get different tools for the job that make the job way easier than if we were to try using... valkyr for the spy mission instead of ivara who is specifically designed for the job, not even giving an F about laser doors

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On 2021-02-27 at 11:08 PM, (PSN)thorfinn01 said:

I'm getting really tired of hearing this catchphrase so if you think it's so easy here are some quick steps for you to follow:

1.  Sell off your Warframes / weapons that have forma in them and replace them with zero forma builds.

Still to easy?

2. Take off all your mods.

Lets face it, no one complains that acquiring Grendal is 'to easy' do they.

Besides, if you think killing enemies needs to be the hard part, you're probably not playing Warframe, you're just spending Plat. The actual hard part as you progress through the game is getting anything of actual value to drop. For example:

After grinding out 67 Axi A11 Relics, 6700 void traces (averaging 10 per mission) to make them all Radiant, grinding them all open to finally get 1 neuroptics BP!?!?!

Yeah, tell me again how 'easy kills' is the problem.

Then you have people screaming "hurr durr i shouldnt have to play with one hand tied behind my back." Or "hurr durr then whats the point of farming those things". 

 

You know, because DE tying EVERYONE's hands behind their back to absolve you from your lack of self control vs you deciding not to use the most optimized meta loadouts makes such a big gameplay difference. Eye roll. 

 

Whats the point of investing time/money/resources into something jf DE is going to nerf it into the ground anyway. 

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9 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Whats the point of investing time/money/resources into something jf DE is going to nerf it into the ground anyway. 

Entertainment.

It's not an Investment, it's just Entertainment.

There is no 'portfolio' that will 'mature'.

It's just a game.

The point is to be entertained and get dopamine hits, nothing more.

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14 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Entertainment.

It's not an Investment, it's just Entertainment.

There is no 'portfolio' that will 'mature'.

It's just a game.

The point is to be entertained and get dopamine hits, nothing more.

Oh my bad. I didnt realize we were talking about the stonk market. 

 

I thought we were talking about a videogame, where "investing" can reasonably be inferred to mean putting time, ingame resources, and or actual money via plat into things.

 

Thanks for clearing that up. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Oh my bad. I didnt realize we were talking about the stonk market. 

I thought we were talking about a videogame, where "investing" can reasonably be inferred to mean putting time, ingame resources, and or actual money via plat into things.

Thanks for clearing that up. 

Well, your prose shows me you cannot tell the difference if you are thinking your time played in an investment.

So, you are welcome.

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21 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Well, your prose shows me you cannot tell the difference if you are thinking your time played in an investment.

So, you are welcome.

>preaching about prose.

>antics with semantics about the word "investment".

>time in an investment.

>ignoring i wasnt just talking about time, but in game resources and actual money as well. 

Kek.

Definition of investment: 

the action or process of investing money for profit or material result.

"a debate over private investment in road-building"-google.

 

I could argue that getting an item, mod, or effects thereof, are a "material result".

 

Do you also want to play antics with semantics about whether digital content can constitute a "material result"? 

 

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6 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Do you also want to play antics with semantics about whether digital content can constitute a "material result"? 

If you like.

If you don't like the conversation tack I take, ignore it.

Resource investment, time, money, emotion, in-game items, etc. is still just for Entertainment with WF.

I have seen the 'investment' theme too often here used as some 'thing' that DE can 'steal' or 'take back' or w/e, when it's just Entertainment.

The Plat-worshipping robber-baron-wanna-bees, for example, seem to think anything that de-values their virtual items is literally 'stealing' from them.

I am happy to talk about most any topic.

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3 hours ago, (PSN)Yggranya said:

Are any of you going to explain what "difficulty" is to you?

Ooh, me, I did that!

But as a sub-discussion with another player. And mostly off topic to the thread.

Difficulty, to me, is a cumulative function of engagement with the enemy. Where any one enemy is relatively simple to engage with, but each type of enemy has something that is different from the next type of enemy to ensure engaging with them is different, so you need a tactic for each enemy type that can either overlap or directly conflict with a tactic for dealing with some other enemy. Then, by putting a variety of these enemies on the field, you then have to prioritise your actions, because the cumulative actions needed to deal with the enemies become more and more difficult.

This could easily be done with DE's existing engine as long as they were willing to make some definitive rules that ruin the player Power Fantasy that currently exists.

For example, if physical shields held by enemies were entirely immune to punch-through, direct melee and could defend against AoE in a large angle (as long as the enemy was facing it), that would be one rule to interfere with us, the player. Another would be if Heavy Gunners or Techs would ramp up their weapons and if the damage didn't kill you it would instead physically push you away to a sensible range, so this would give them large windows of time to be immune to melee (until they reloaded). If a Heavy and a Shield unit stood next to each other, therefore, it would be very difficult to progress without using something like well-placed AoE or an ability that stuns/controls them (maybe placing an AoE attack towards them to force the Shield enemy to defend against that, and then attacking while they're looking in the other direction). Charger enemies, ones that teleport, enemies that teleport you into danger, enemies that latch you... if all of these had genuine detrimental effects on your own agency, then the game would actually be difficult.

The AI in Warframe is almost smart enough to actually do all of this, and all the enemies exist in the game. What needs to be done is just biting that bullet and making them actually affect the player in a way the player doesn't like.

I don't think it's going to happen, because of just exactly how much complaining goes on whenever the player's power fantasy is messed with. I saw enough about Nullifiers... less now, but so much when they were first introduced...

But that's the idea.

Enemies can affect the player, and by forcing the player to engage the brain even the smallest amount to counter the effects? That's how you introduce difficulty. And higher difficulty comes from compounding the small amount of difficulty on top of itself to become complex.

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14 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

as long as they were willing to make some definitive rules that ruin the player Power Fantasy that currently exists.

I agree with almost everything you've said, but I'd like to point out a thing here: Power Fantasy does not exclusively mean "steamrolling through content with no effort" as we currently do; a balanced Warframe, with avenues for challenge, will still very much be a Power Fantasy, as the player will still be a godlike void entity commanding bio-mechanical puppets of destruction. It doesn't get much more power fantasy than that, even without spammable nukes, perma-CC, and functional immortality. Games like Doom or Monster Hunter are mostly considered hard and well balanced, but they are still power fantasies. 

Power and feeling awesome are core to the Warframe experience, and that absolutely isn't mutually exclusive with the game being engaging and challenging. But maybe, it would be better if all the tools (in the same theoretical power bracket, ergo mastery rank) we have could make you feel equally awesome, without the massive disparities we have, and if maybe your feeling of awesomeness came both from your gear and your skill, without fights that are entirely won in the arsenal, before setting foot on the actual battlefield. 

Edited by (XBOX)ShonFr0st
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2 hours ago, (XBOX)ShonFr0st said:

Power Fantasy does not exclusively mean "steamrolling through content with no effort" as we currently do

Oh, believe me, I wouldn't have suggested that if this wasn't true. There is a key difference that needs to be kept in mind, though, between the fact that I put the first 'Power Fantasy' with the capital letters, and the second one not ^^

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On 2021-02-28 at 6:08 AM, (PSN)thorfinn01 said:

Lets face it, no one complains that acquiring Grendal is 'to easy' do they.

The missions aren't actually that difficult to complete, they're just tedious because enemies are spongy and the objectives are extended beyond even Sortie length. Our mods certainly do contribute to trivializing the game, but I think Grendel's acquisition missions are a good demonstration of how the game's core systems fail to be challenging even without them: many weapons and frames are cheesy by nature, so even without mods those missions are still rather easy. Not necessarily as easy as with our regular complement of mods, but easy nonetheless.

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On 2021-03-01 at 6:42 AM, (PSN)Yggranya said:

Please explain what a "hard boss" is to you. More health, damage, immunities and a resistance to damage? That's not hard. Are any of you going to explain what "difficulty" is to you?

Anything that cannot be butter smoothed or cheesed and at the same time don't feel like fighting Stone statues, I also wanna see the boss I'm fighting, a good example for this is the ropalolyst, and I know people hate that boss, But I personally find it interesting, of course it needs some fixes, but I least we got to see the boss fight.

Edited by MouadSaqui
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1 hour ago, MouadSaqui said:

Anything that cannot be butter smoothed or cheesed and at the same time don't feel light fighting Stone statues, I also wanna see the boss I'm fighting, a good example for this is the ropalolyst, and I know people hate that boss, But I personally find it interesting, of course it needs some fixes, but I least we got to see the boss fight.

I'd like to submit myself as another who liked Ralph (I call Ropalolyst Ralph to go along with Terry Garry and Harry...because I find it funny).

It had a good combination of mechanics, shooting, and "sealing the deal" so to speak, the biggest failing of the fight was that it might have been a bit too rigidly designed, not changing other than the arena getting smaller between phases.

I felt like I was actually fighting something, I didn't just need to shoot it with my HAX sniper until it died, I had to position and use my mobility options in order to open it up to hit its week points.

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1 hour ago, Aldain said:

I had to position and use my mobility options in order to open it up to hit its week points.

My biggest complaint is its grab attack. Partly because it's really unclear on how to escape from it or what range it has, but mostly because I can't do a badass slide through Ralph's legs and shoot its weak points on its back.

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vor 22 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA:

Then you have people screaming "hurr durr i shouldnt have to play with one hand tied behind my back." Or "hurr durr then whats the point of farming those things". 

 

You know, because DE tying EVERYONE's hands behind their back to absolve you from your lack of self control vs you deciding not to use the most optimized meta loadouts makes such a big gameplay difference. Eye roll. 

 

Whats the point of investing time/money/resources into something jf DE is going to nerf it into the ground anyway. 

It’s always the same thing, isn’t it? Equip worse gear. Make worse builds.
Strangely, no one ever proposes that I should make the game more difficult by missing half my shots on purpose or turn my character with the keyboard instead of using the mouse.
It’s almost as if people only pretended not to understand that playing a challenging game and intentionally playing bad in an easy game isn’t the same thing.

Edited by Krankbert
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1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

My biggest complaint is its grab attack. Partly because it's really unclear on how to escape from it or what range it has, but mostly because I can't do a badass slide through Ralph's legs and shoot its weak points on its back.

Ya know I never figured that grab out.

I tried mashing buttons, wiggling the control stick, even waving the camera but it just seems to be a "Imma grab ya now!" thing similar to how the Liches work...with all the lag issues too considering I once got grabbed while falling off the edge due to rubberbanding.

I know people hate the dreaded three letters QTE, but things like that could help, make them harder to pass the more you get grabbed or something so it isn't a complete get out of jail free card. QTEs are tools of game design, it obviously can go WAY too far like entire boss fights of The Order: 1886 being nothing but QTEs, but they can also serve a benefit too, I remember a lot of sequences in Metal Gear Rising BECAUSE the QTEs were sparse but impactful.

...There I go again rambling about game design and getting off topic...what even is this topic that I've wandered into anyway?

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On 2021-03-02 at 4:44 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Ooh, me, I did that!

But as a sub-discussion with another player. And mostly off topic to the thread.

Difficulty, to me, is a cumulative function of engagement with the enemy. Where any one enemy is relatively simple to engage with, but each type of enemy has something that is different from the next type of enemy to ensure engaging with them is different, so you need a tactic for each enemy type that can either overlap or directly conflict with a tactic for dealing with some other enemy. Then, by putting a variety of these enemies on the field, you then have to prioritise your actions, because the cumulative actions needed to deal with the enemies become more and more difficult.

This could easily be done with DE's existing engine as long as they were willing to make some definitive rules that ruin the player Power Fantasy that currently exists.

For example, if physical shields held by enemies were entirely immune to punch-through, direct melee and could defend against AoE in a large angle (as long as the enemy was facing it), that would be one rule to interfere with us, the player. Another would be if Heavy Gunners or Techs would ramp up their weapons and if the damage didn't kill you it would instead physically push you away to a sensible range, so this would give them large windows of time to be immune to melee (until they reloaded). If a Heavy and a Shield unit stood next to each other, therefore, it would be very difficult to progress without using something like well-placed AoE or an ability that stuns/controls them (maybe placing an AoE attack towards them to force the Shield enemy to defend against that, and then attacking while they're looking in the other direction). Charger enemies, ones that teleport, enemies that teleport you into danger, enemies that latch you... if all of these had genuine detrimental effects on your own agency, then the game would actually be difficult.

The AI in Warframe is almost smart enough to actually do all of this, and all the enemies exist in the game. What needs to be done is just biting that bullet and making them actually affect the player in a way the player doesn't like.

I don't think it's going to happen, because of just exactly how much complaining goes on whenever the player's power fantasy is messed with. I saw enough about Nullifiers... less now, but so much when they were first introduced...

But that's the idea.

Enemies can affect the player, and by forcing the player to engage the brain even the smallest amount to counter the effects? That's how you introduce difficulty. And higher difficulty comes from compounding the small amount of difficulty on top of itself to become complex.

fortuna enimys knockdown spam say HI

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Grendel missions were actually fun, not because it wasn't easy but because actually required some strategy, and in the current state of the game compared to that, you don't need a strategy, you don't even need to think, just go in mash some buttons and everything is dead in seconds.

As for RNG we all know or suspect it's not true RNG and is somewhat biased, sometimes you get bad luck and sometimes good luck. I've had relics drop rare parts one after an other and sometimes none at all.

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15 hours ago, lowgrav said:

fortuna enimys knockdown spam say HI

Yeah, they do. Sure it's annoying if they only have one thing they can do that actually affects you at all. Especially when a single Primed Sure Footed, or playing any of the dozen frames with abilities/passives that have knockdown immunity, simply turns off that problem.

Imagine if the one type of knockdown existed, but then all the rest were different. Imagine if the one enemy would charge you and knock you down, but all the other spam out there was instead based around how the Corpus should actually play, with ranged enemies throwing tech grenades that morph into pads that summon other enemies, with those Spiders and Jackals sending out area-denial fields that actually push you out of them rather than just dealing damage. Where each type of CC spam the enemies throw at you is cumulative, not repetitive.

All the options are there, they exist in Warframe, they just aren't used to have any real effect, so the only thing we have that actually does affect us for any length of time is prolonged, repetitive spam of knock-downs...

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