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DE: Stop tweaking stuff based on gimmicks or things that no one actually does.


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This has happened a couple times already but with melee, they are taking extreme examples as normal gameplay, which is not real at all.

1) NO ONE, EVER, goes around steel path mashing e (BIG EDIT BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE THE READING COMPREHENSION OF A 3 YEAR OLD ON SPEED: When I say mash e, i'm referring specifically at the example given BY THE DEVS ON THE STREAM, which is a video of someone just pressing e, no movement keys, no abilities, no anything.. OF COURSE IF U DO A MISSION WITH MELEE YOU MASH E, ITS THE MELEE ATTACK, also stop taking one point of my argument however u want and ignoring the rest and if you didnt watch the stream, go watch it before discussing). I cant even believe this was a point pushed forward by a developer as something bad.. Seriously? You dont make a compelling game by limiting what the player can do, you make a compelling game by.. well.. giving the player better options than to mash e and, we have those. Thats why no one just goes around just mashing e. Is it possible? Yeah it is, but no one does it, so why fix a system based on something that no one does? Melee is in a good place with its combos, DO NOT TOUCH THOSE, MELEE IS THE ONLY FUN COMBAT LEFT, YOU DONT WANT US TO MASH E BUT DONT CARE THAT GUN PLAY IS ALL ABOUT MASHING A MOUSE BUTTON. 

 

2) NO ONE, EVER, puts every single speed mod in a weapon. Yet, again, its been used as an example on "how the system is broken". If you do that, yeah you can reach 200+% AS, but who the hell does that? No one. Because thats not good and wont help you do more than just look wanky. So why take away that option? Its not even good, you are not doing anything good with that.. You are just memeing. Again, taking options away for no reason than "AS GOES BRR BRR" is not compelling gameplay. Also sacrifices those builds that need more than one speed mod (very slow weapons) which, although very few, do exist. (EDIT: Yes, putting every single mod giving speed on things breaks them completely, makes them unusable, but WHO does that? No one.. Because IT BREAKS THEM.. So using that as an example, AGAIN BY THE DEVS ON STREAM is not correct, thats my point, so why the hell nerf it by letting us equip only one speed mod? It makes no sense at all and only helps to mess with slow weapons)

 

3) Infinite CC.. Really? Who gives a damn about that? Has anyone complained about that? No? THEN WHY TOUCH IT??!! First of all, if the problem is Melee is too strong and damage will be thrown back, then leave the cc in. If you are taking the cc, leave the damage in. Sometimes I feel the devs dont play their own game. If you go halfheartedly into melee with a weaker frame, you can get your ass kicked to the park and back, so you need that cc or damage to stay alive.. While weapons u can just stay meters away, dodging everything and SMASHING ONE SINGLE BUTTON. And we do have infinite CC on some primaries, so what gives? STOP TAKING AWAY THINGS THAT ARE NOT A PROBLEM, STOP MAKING THE GAME LESS FUN.

 

43) MELEE IS IN A GOOD STATE (BIG EDIT AGAIN BECAUSE.. SAME REASON: Me saying that its in a good state does not mean that its not powerful and far more powerful than weapons.. I'm saying that in a POWER FANTASY GAME its in a good state, and weapons are the ones messing up). Now this may be controversial, but for the first time we have a system involving 2 weapons for best practice.. You go to your pistol, fill everything with status, then go to melee.. Yeah you can do only melee, or only pistols.. But the combo is there and free to use.. With melee we have a fun system with combos, thinking about heavies too, engaging mods and it works. Everyone is like "MELEE GOES BRR BRR ON STEEL PATH, TOO STRONG" and I ask, what the hell do you want? An impossible mode? Minmaxers will be everywhere, I have a friend who just recently joined the game and without melee would not be able to do steel path at all because he does not like squishy frames. So what? F* him? No dude, steel path is not supposed to be impossible, its one more gamemode and yes, melee is good in it, so what? Whats the problem? Ignis is good in the rest of the game, as are all primaries, whats the problem on having best weapons for different content? Melee works, it does what it is supposed to do, kill stuff. You can clear rooms? Yeah you can, but you can do that with the right setup with primaries and pistols too.. Hell, we have saryn, we have octavias mallet, we have legerdemain mirage, etc..etc..etc.. This game is not about not being able to do content, the game is SUPPOSED to feel like a fast paced shooter/ninjaesque thing.. And if you have to stay half a year in  a room hitting something for it to die, its not content, its not fun, its boring bs. I left the game because it was stagnant and as a solo player it bored me to hell and back.. I'm back for a couple of weeks and a month already (200 hours with the new system) and im having the time of my life with melee, learning how to chain combos, doing wacky builds with speed to see how far I can push the system and dying in the process because attack speed is not strong by itself.

Melee used to be about mashing e. now its not. Before, you could at least slide2win, I came back and my atterax build is worthless but ive been having a lot of fun with the new system, even tho I found myself in stupid hell grinds, even tho I found myself looking for hours and hours and hours in the same god damn map for protea, even tho deimos is such a pita that feels DESIGNED to make me rage quit after the grind and bore the hell out of me after running the exact same mission for hours upon hours of non ending looking at the same screen doing the exact same thing.. And what pulled me though is trying all the new combos. I'm serious, I would have left the game a couple hours in after looking at the boring grind I had ahead if I hadnt 15 melee weapons that I wanted to try out and make builds of. 

 

TLDR: STOP MAKING THE GAME LESS FUN, BUFF PRIMARIES, LEAVE MELEE ALONE, IT WORKS! (And stop paying attention to youtube videos showing extremes that no one goes to.. Its like trying to fix the electrical outages in texas by nuking the whole system just because it didnt work there.. Yeah, it had a problem, but its not electricity that is bad, its bad engineering that made S#&$ hit the fan, fix what is not going well, dont nuke the whole electric network (in this case, we are talking about primaries being engineered like hell and, ironically, are about mashing one button all the time.. so yeah... fix your primaries system and while you are at it, make it so missions give us a REASON to use something, instead of trying to force us to drop something else by nerfing it, when will you guys learn? Ive been playing this game since ash prime came out and its still the same old boring discussion everywhere and you guys never listening to the main problem that the player have: THE CONTENT IS BORING, THE ONLY REASON WE KEEP PLAYING IS BECAUSE WE ARE COMPLETIONIST NERDS, WE DONT NEED NERFS TAKING OPTIONS AWAY AND MAKING THE GAME LESS FUN, WE NEED YOU NOT TO THROW A 20 FKN HOURS GRIND IN THE SAME GOD DAMNED AND HELL BOUND MISSION, I HAVE NEVER BEEN SO TIRED IN THIS GAME ABOUT REPEATING THE SAME CONTENT OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER [See? It gets old pretty fast, now make that x1000 and you have deimos, protea, kuva weapons, necramech farm..] I dont mind the grind, its part of the game, but grinding in the same spot, same mission, for hours upon hours, is boring as hell...))

 

Finisher words:

I know you want us to play your game DE, after all, thats your job... But forcing us is not the way, make the game more interesting instead of less... Then we will play a lot more.. There is a reason this game hasnt launched to fame like others and its because the only reason it keeps going is because you have veterans that keep coming back, even after breaks.. then we find the game is still in a deplorable state of affairs, get bored and wait another year to come back.. What are you gonna do when you run out of veterans? You had ways of making warframe a great success, you could have put a lot of effort into conclave and bring this game into the forefront of e-sports (or at least make it fun for the ones who want to play conclave), you could have put more effort into the narrative, the story, instead of launching a cinematic quest every time the game is about to die, just to revitalize it for a couple months, but instead you are wasting your time, looking through youtube to find one nerd who pressed e all along a mission and you went "OMG, THIS CANT BE HAPPENING, WE NEED TO FIX THIS" Fix your priorities first, I beg of you, this game has all the potential it needs, you just need to start listening to your goddamned, nerdy, kinda bored but with nothing else to do, completionist, ninja loving, player base.

Edited by wolfsilver00
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Was this stuff they said on the Devstream? I didn't pay attention since I only had the stream open for the Umbra Forma. Hopefully they said it in a tone that only told us they are aware of the design issues instead of the usual "OMG nerf it because people find it useful" tone.

Mashing E is the way to use melee so I don't understand the issue, infinite CC is good because enemies spawn endlessly and get annoying deal with especially on long missions and defensive missions were made a lot harder with the healing nerfs (it's almost a requirement to disable enemies instead of killing them on some maps, I relied on it a lot less before then).

Didn't know attack speed stacking was a thing but a person I played with did make a meme-weapon with max attack speed that was surprisingly effective so it definitely works. He quit because everything he used constantly got nerfed though...

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what I saw from the devstream nothing wil really change with melee. Guns will get some form of combo system maybe some unorthodox buffs and also some new set mods to pair with melee or something. That said nothing will really change. Just more wasted time.

Edited by (XBOX)YoungGunn82
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First of all... calm down, sir.

Secondly, we don't know if they're going to nerf melee. We do know that they're going to buff primaries so those could be on par with melee.

Idk about others, but If you ask me if i whether have one fun weapon or two fun weapons, imma go for the latter.

Cmiiw i might be going senile -or deaf, but from what i can remember, there was a harmless conversation on stream about how good melee was, especially how fast they are, and somehow the community spun it to THEY'RE DEFINITELY GOING TO NERF MELEE SPEED TO OBLIVION. JESUS, DE!!! But this is not unexpected from warframe community. Probably the only gaming community in earth who hates the game that they're playing as much as they love it. Seriously i never see any other game like this.

Other than that, people quit warframe because they're bored. I mean, i played god of war for 300 hours and eventually i put it down. That is a mothereffin goty. Best of the best videogame, yet nobody will be able to play it forever. Btw i played zelda botw for 800 hours before eventually put it away. Puny numbers huh? Botw was clamored by many as "game of the century", let alone silly ol' warframe. 

So chill my main man. I heard a lot of warframe veterans ended up loving monster hunter. Have you tried that game?

Edited by Soy77
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29 minutes ago, Unimira said:

Was this stuff they said on the Devstream? I didn't pay attention since I only had the stream open for the Umbra Forma. Hopefully they said it in a tone that only told us they are aware of the design issues instead of the usual "OMG nerf it because people find it useful" tone.

When it comes to attackspeed, it's for "artistic" reasons; they stated with high speed melee is a bunch of noise and you can't see anything, even though using guns is literally nothing but noise to the point people complained about hearing them when someone used loud weapons, or how some guns could blind allies.

The cc removal is because they think melee needs "risk", even though this apparent risk doesn't apply to guns that can spam cc, or Warframes. Seemingly, people also ignore travel time between enemies. The main reason why melee has no risk, is because the game itself has no risk, and several mods or Warframe options completely delete risk from the game all together. None of which was unsurprisingly mentioned.

The reality though, none of this has anything to do with balance. Even when it comes to gun balance, seemingly the whole aoe vs single target was left out of the discussion. A lot of guns I like are "unusable" [according to them] in comparison to the few that get spammed, and anything that was hinted suggests there might be absolutely nothing done about that. Next week they are supposed to post more details, so maybe that would at least be mentioned there.

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11 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

When it comes to attackspeed, it's for "artistic" reasons; they stated with high speed melee is a bunch of noise and you can't see anything, even though using guns is literally nothing but noise to the point people complained about hearing them when someone used loud weapons, or how some guns could blind allies.

The cc removal is because they think melee needs "risk", even though this apparent risk doesn't apply to guns that can spam cc, or Warframes. Seemingly, people also ignore travel time between enemies. The main reason why melee has no risk, is because the game itself has no risk, and several mods or Warframe options completely delete risk from the game all together. None of which was unsurprisingly mentioned.

The reality though, none of this has anything to do with balance. Even when it comes to gun balance, seemingly the whole aoe vs single target was left out of the discussion. A lot of guns I like are "unusable" [according to them] in comparison to the few that get spammed, and anything that was hinted suggests there might be absolutely nothing done about that. Next week they are supposed to post more details, so maybe that would at least be mentioned there.

This is the most ridiculous thing I heard this month. When you can't hear **** in PoE, Vallis or Disruption because of bass-boosted enemy screeching around you (yes, they actually managed to make sound effects that both pierce and shake your ears at the same time) - #isleep, when it comes to noisy weapon FX - let's mess with gameplay mechanics.

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vor 3 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA:

I was under the impression that steel path was meant to be a sideshow and not the new thing to balance the whole game around. 

 

This is a direct response to a claim made by the OP. If you want to know what the community of this forum really thinks about guns vs melee, go back a few weeks when people weren't angling to prevent a nerf to melee. Before last Friday, there wasn't the slightest bit of controversy about the state of melee vs the state of guns.

Edited by Krankbert
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Melee's have individual mods stronger than entire builds in their respective category. You can throw ever non-augment Crit or Status mod onto a build and be unable to match Weeping Wounds, even conditionally.

 

From a mathematical perspective, Melee is not fine. The fact that did not even come up on stream is incredibly concerning to me.

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The problem here is that people listen to the Dev Stream, but they don't "Listen" to the Dev Stream.

I honestly think you could walk up to a good 70% of the viewers and ask what they took away from Dev Stream 152 and the answer would be " An Umbral Forma"

I'd suggest going and watching it again and actually taking note of what's actually being said this time. 

Some good things are coming.

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christ alive... where to begin...

- Melee IS the better way to get through steel path. I remember doing my first Steel Path mission on E Prime: used a gun, enemies took a little while to kill; pulled out Nami Skyla Prime, dudes melted real quick. using nothing but melee in steel path is something a lot of people do, so it's not a gimmick.

- attack speed itself isn't the problem, it's the fact that high attack speed means being able to put a ton of Status effects on enemies, which of course plays into scaling mods like Condition Overload, which in turn is what makes melee so damn powerful. personally I'm fine with melees being a bit slower if DE are also prepared to clean up some animations that I think would look jank AF, but they usually get away with it because melees can be so fast you barely see the animations.

- I don't recall them mentioning anything about CC with melee weapons? certain weapons and melee types do have and should keep some level of CC. 

- it's not about melee being in a good state, it's about everything else being in a bad state. guns are only viable up to a point, which granted is high level Steel path, but guns are not supposed to be THIS much weaker than melees. this isn't DMC where your guns are a means of carrying on your combo and nothing else, here they are supposed to be a viable option of primary DPS for those that want them. you want to mow down everything with a machine gun? it should be viable. you want to be a gunslinger and just use sidearms? it should be viable. you want to be a true ninja and use only melee: it should be viable, but right now it's by far the best option. 

overall, OP is going full caps lock over stuff that isn't even set in stone yet. I wouldn't be surprised if a week from now DE decide to go back on the attack speed thing due to the backlash, but then how else can they solve the problem of melee outclassing everything at higher levels?.

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18 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

but then how else can they solve the problem of melee outclassing everything at higher levels?.

The N-word.

But you know what happens when someone says the N-word.

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2 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

When it comes to attackspeed, it's for "artistic" reasons; they stated with high speed melee is a bunch of noise and you can't see anything

Melee is actually flat out broken at high enough attack speed. Not broken unbalanced, broken defective.

 

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1 minute ago, DoomFruit said:

Melee is actually flat out broken at high enough attack speed. Not broken unbalanced, broken defective.

Got a balla dagger that is already fast without mods well I concur using Berserker and being at 75% breaks the stance so I dont even use attack speed mods on that one. On other melees I prefer Quickening, Ikr its not 75% attack speed but at least the whole stances work.

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Just now, Krilexis said:

Got a balla dagger that is already fast without mods well I concur using Berserker and being at 75% breaks the stance so I dont even use attack speed mods on that one. On other melees I prefer Quickening, Ikr its not 75% attack speed but at least the whole stances work.

I actually don't have any problems when using just primed fury on my orthos prime. The problem arises when I get a Volt, Wisp or Valkyr who's being "helpful" with their abilities. That is what breaks my melee and it's why I consider them to be more dangerous than the enemies.

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36 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

 

- I don't recall them mentioning anything about CC with melee weapons? certain weapons and melee types do have and should keep some level of CC. 

They did, mainly the fact that you can infinitely chain stuns and knockdowns. Which, yeah, it doesn't come up with how fast we can shred, but more than a few stances have access to stunlocks.

37 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

- it's not about melee being in a good state, it's about everything else being in a bad state. guns are only viable up to a point, which granted is high level Steel path, but guns are not supposed to be THIS much weaker than melees. this isn't DMC where your guns are a means of carrying on your combo and nothing else, here they are supposed to be a viable option of primary DPS for those that want them. you want to mow down everything with a machine gun? it should be viable. you want to be a gunslinger and just use sidearms? it should be viable. you want to be a true ninja and use only melee: it should be viable, but right now it's by far the best option. 

As I've said before, Melee has some individual mods better than everything else on offer, so, yes, it is in a somewhat overtuned state. Mainly, that the rest of its modding options are equal to better than their gun options - for example with crit, Sacrificial Steel has access to up to +275% compared to Primed Point Strike's +187%. Blood Rush offers +760%. And you can equip both with basically no problems. And that's ignoring that heavy attacks with Sacrificial Steel have +550%. 

I don't have an issue with Melee having better base stat mods overall, because at the end of the day it is a bit riskier and does have to overcome the gap spent reaching the enemy, small as it may be with our level of speed. But the Scaling mods in particular are dramatically overdeveloped, especially for how easy it is to gain and keep combo.

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Just now, DoomFruit said:

Melee is actually flat out broken at high enough attack speed. Not broken unbalanced, broken defective.

 

I am aware of that, and it doesn't require "high" attackspeed. It is dependent on the weapon/stance. Wukong's staff for example when I would use it before melee rework, all it took was having berserker equipped and a high str Wisp in the group and I would have to mash the attack input to register combos or avoid just picking up the mote. Normal staves are the same, berserker+the arcane alone already starts messing it up. Meanwhile, even with insanely high speed with Nikanas I haven't ever ran into the issue.

However, this isn't what DE commented on, and given as I said it doesn't require high attackspeed on some weapons, this isn't changing unless DE addresses this in a week on their dev workshop post.

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I mean, you can go on to a map and cheese it by clicking just one button.

Put up khora's cage, never get hit behind stealth frames... limbo bubble, titania's CC right off the top of my head.

If your story is the game has to be a hard challenge, we have to restructure and nerf everything in the whole game.

My impression, and tell me if I am wrong, the concept is they want you to feel overpowered and instead the challenge is the grind.

You create spy mission, then specifically create spy frames that make it easy. Defense missions cheese. Or being allowed to control the target npc's on discruption.

Isn't the whole entire game built around being casual and easy?

 

Nerfing melee changes what. Probably changes how melee users feel about the developers only am I right.

Go invest time into story content or something, or all those pioneering inspirational speeches about making warframe special we heard over the years.

Adding more grind and nerfing damage could it be any more generic mmo at this point lol.

 

Edited by Surbusken
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First,  Calm down , its a game not your life investment that is at stake.

Second , i have mixed feelings about the OP, There are some parts that i agree with near the end but most of the early stuff where melee is depicted "just as good as guns" is not true.

Melee was overpowered for quite some time (ever since the CO and bloodrush days) , but the generic enemy was not tanky enough to tell the difference (100 hp enemy dead by 1000 damage bullet or dead by a million damage melee strike was still dead) but with steel path enemies could actually survive a few melee strikes so the guns became very quickly outclassed by melee with a very wide margin,

Its only when someone creates a video that showcases how ridiculous you can get that people actually notice it, case in point the e mash video. and just to note you cant complete a mission with just clicking using guns, you know why? guns don't provide mobility. So tone down on the assumption that guns are just as good , they are not.

They did mention they will be looking at speed stacking with multiple mods , i too was confused as to what was the point to it, i dont use more than one speed mod on any of my weapons (maybe a few exceptions but they are not even that good) so if they are only going to add a parenting conditions (only one speed mod at a time) you really dont need to be concerned as it will not impact you as per your own comments.

You also fail to understand the game isnt just made to make you feel good, it is a business, the business depends on you wanting to buy/farm, forma , mod and apply cosmetics to different gear items. If you can do everything with the starter skana and dont drop any effort into adding value to DE (as a trader/direct buyer of plat) they are not inclined to support your play style. you might enjoy chasing the cheese which is fine , however your cheese tactics are something i dislike and if i am forced to play in a group my non cheese tactics puts the team at a disadvantage. i am not surprised you also miss the slide to win tactics. This ties up with teh whole game being less of a looter shooter and more of a slot machine , you are incentivized to play the game as little as possible. which i do agree does need changes.

Also , If you actually went though the whole devstream , you would have realised they are actually looking to buff many guns by adding mechanical and mod changes to it ,of course what they say and what they deliver may be different (as experience has taught me).

Warframe is already pretty famous , or atleast it was a few years ago , but it has deteriorated over time some. I do agree that DE should get their priorities straight , it does feel like there is no direction to the game beyond "release some S#&$ to have players drop plat so we can survive another quarter".

 

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