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DE: Stop tweaking stuff based on gimmicks or things that no one actually does.


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5 hours ago, wolfsilver00 said:

This has happened a couple times already but with melee, they are taking extreme examples as normal gameplay, which is not real at all.

1) NO ONE, EVER, goes around steel path mashing e.

Already stopped reading... as you are already beginning with an absolute absurdity. 

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5 hours ago, wolfsilver00 said:

1) NO ONE, EVER, goes around steel path mashing e.

Then you don't actually play steel path, even though i relay on my phantasma and k nukor my karyst prime out dps them by a giant margin. Just so im not mashing b the while time i save it for acolytes and a few troublesome enemies. But other players go crazy with melee 

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4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Melee's have individual mods stronger than entire builds in their respective category. You can throw ever non-augment Crit or Status mod onto a build and be unable to match Weeping Wounds, even conditionally.

 

From a mathematical perspective, Melee is not fine. The fact that did not even come up on stream is incredibly concerning to me.

I suspect it indirectly came up. The emphasis was on bringing guns up to melee. Scott kept mentioning new (crazy) gun mods. I think it's fair to extrapolate from here guns are getting similar mods.

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Just now, (PSN)Shelneroth said:

I suspect it indirectly came up. The emphasis was on bringing guns up to melee. Scott kept mentioning new (crazy) gun mods. I think it's fair to extrapolate from here guns are getting similar mods.

I am very much hoping that they're not.

Scaling mods are very, very clearly the outliers in this equation. Nothing else in Melee's arsenal even comes close.

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You can put 280 strength on Valkyr right now and it's gonna be a bit much. Add a speed mod in your weapon and a wisp specter and you're basically gonna freeze the game. 

A slight speed adjustment really isn't a big deal. 

DE is trying to please 3 camps right now. As a powercreep melee loving psycho, I'm ok with making a small sacrifice to make gun user feel better. 

As long as the game doesn't cater to the "we need a complete overhaul stat/mod/enemy ehp squish" crowd I'm happy. 

We'll all still be OP, and all the guns I have 7 forma in are getting a massive buff most likely. 

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2 hours ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

Did DE even finish thier melee rework? 

Nope. 

Stage 2 was meant to be the balancing pass version of it too, and they royally screwed that part up. Or at the very least, did for Scaling.

Seriously, I don't use scaling mods and... melee's fine without it. It's still powerful, very much so. It did not need access to amount of power that scaling mods provide!

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I'm in agreement with the OP over the comments heard on the Dev Stream. The Devs seem overly concerned with situations that are not concerning to me at all... over-hyped or dramatized "absurdities" that aren't really representative of my experience in the game. (Just mashing E to get through a mission... what's the problem here? E (or O on PS4 controller) is the button you use to melee... it's how the game works... you have to mash R2 to shoot a gun just the same (or just hold, in some cases)).

I don't trust their "10% nerf" comment from experience with their Sledgehammer-instead-of-fly-swatter approach to nerfing. We'll have to see how it really ends up. Even "small" changes can ruin melee for me... like the way polearm stances were changed at first to have a halting foot-planting swing that stopped forward movement every few swings. I found myself only logging in for daily rewards and very few missions here and there to help out a friend who I had recently introduced to the game. If they hadn't fixed it, I probably would have quit over that "little" change.

There is danger here... and I'm cautiously apprehensive about any changes to melee.

 

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vor 9 Stunden schrieb wolfsilver00:

This has happened a couple times already but with melee, they are taking extreme examples as normal gameplay, which is not real at all.

1) NO ONE, EVER, goes around steel path mashing e. I cant even believe this was a point pushed forward by a developer as something bad.. Seriously? U can also go through steel path just pressing click and shooting everything, whats the difference? You dont make a compelling game by limiting what the player can do, you make a compelling game by.. well.. giving the player better options than to mash e and, we have those. Thats why no one just goes around just mashing e. Is it possible? Yeah it is, but no one does it, so why fix a system based on something that no one does? Melee is in a good place with its combos, DO NOT TOUCH THOSE, MELEE IS THE ONLY FUN COMBAT LEFT, YOU DONT WANT US TO MASH E BUT DONT CARE THAT GUN PLAY IS ALL ABOUT MASHING A MOUSE BUTTON. 

 

2) NO ONE, EVER, puts every single speed mod in a weapon. Yet, again, its been used as an example on "how the system is broken". If you do that, yeah you can reach 200+% AS, but who the hell does that? No one. Because thats not good and wont help you do more than just look wanky. So why take away that option? Its not even good, you are not doing anything good with that.. You are just memeing. Again, taking options away for no reason than "AS GOES BRR BRR" is not compelling gameplay. Also sacrifices those builds that need more than one speed mod (very slow weapons) which, although very few, do exist. 

 

3) Infinite CC.. Really? Who gives a damn about that? Has anyone complained about that? No? THEN WHY TOUCH IT??!! First of all, if the problem is Melee is too strong and damage will be thrown back, then leave the cc in. If you are taking the cc, leave the damage in. Sometimes I feel the devs dont play their own game. If you go halfheartedly into melee with a weaker frame, you can get your ass kicked to the park and back, so you need that cc or damage to stay alive.. While weapons u can just stay meters away, dodging everything and SMASHING ONE SINGLE BUTTON. And we do have infinite CC on some primaries, so what gives? STOP TAKING AWAY THINGS THAT ARE NOT A PROBLEM, STOP MAKING THE GAME LESS FUN.

 

43) MELEE IS IN A GOOD STATE. Now this may be controversial, but for the first time we have a system involving 2 weapons for best practice.. You go to your pistol, fill everything with status, then go to melee.. Yeah you can do only melee, or only pistols.. But the combo is there and free to use.. With melee we have a fun system with combos, thinking about heavies too, engaging mods and it works. Everyone is like "MELEE GOES BRR BRR ON STEEL PATH, TOO STRONG" and I ask, what the hell do you want? An impossible mode? Minmaxers will be everywhere, I have a friend who just recently joined the game and without melee would not be able to do steel path at all because he does not like squishy frames. So what? F* him? No dude, steel path is not supposed to be impossible, its one more gamemode and yes, melee is good in it, so what? Whats the problem? Ignis is good in the rest of the game, as are all primaries, whats the problem on having best weapons for different content? Melee works, it does what it is supposed to do, kill stuff. You can clear rooms? Yeah you can, but you can do that with the right setup with primaries and pistols too.. Hell, we have saryn, we have octavias mallet, we have legerdemain mirage, etc..etc..etc.. This game is not about not being able to do content, the game is SUPPOSED to feel like a fast paced shooter/ninjaesque thing.. And if you have to stay half a year in  a room hitting something for it to die, its not content, its not fun, its boring bs. I left the game because it was stagnant and as a solo player it bored me to hell and back.. I'm back for a couple of weeks and a month already (200 hours with the new system) and im having the time of my life with melee, learning how to chain combos, doing wacky builds with speed to see how far I can push the system and dying in the process because attack speed is not strong by itself.

Melee used to be about mashing e. now its not. Before, you could at least slide2win, I came back and my atterax build is worthless but ive been having a lot of fun with the new system, even tho I found myself in stupid hell grinds, even tho I found myself looking for hours and hours and hours in the same god damn map for protea, even tho deimos is such a pita that feels DESIGNED to make me rage quit after the grind and bore the hell out of me after running the exact same mission for hours upon hours of non ending looking at the same screen doing the exact same thing.. And what pulled me though is trying all the new combos. I'm serious, I would have left the game a couple hours in after looking at the boring grind I had ahead if I hadnt 15 melee weapons that I wanted to try out and make builds of. 

 

TLDR: STOP MAKING THE GAME LESS FUN, BUFF PRIMARIES, LEAVE MELEE ALONE, IT WORKS! (And stop paying attention to youtube videos showing extremes that no one goes to.. Its like trying to fix the electrical outages in texas by nuking the whole system just because it didnt work there.. Yeah, it had a problem, but its not electricity that is bad, its bad engineering that made S#&$ hit the fan, fix what is not going well, dont nuke the whole electric network (in this case, we are talking about primaries being engineered like hell and, ironically, are about mashing one button all the time.. so yeah... fix your primaries system and while you are at it, make it so missions give us a REASON to use something, instead of trying to force us to drop something else by nerfing it, when will you guys learn? Ive been playing this game since ash prime came out and its still the same old boring discussion everywhere and you guys never listening to the main problem that the player have: THE CONTENT IS BORING, THE ONLY REASON WE KEEP PLAYING IS BECAUSE WE ARE COMPLETIONIST NERDS, WE DONT NEED NERFS TAKING OPTIONS AWAY AND MAKING THE GAME LESS FUN, WE NEED YOU NOT TO THROW A 20 FKN HOURS GRIND IN THE SAME GOD DAMNED AND HELL BOUND MISSION, I HAVE NEVER BEEN SO TIRED IN THIS GAME ABOUT REPEATING THE SAME CONTENT OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER [See? It gets old pretty fast, now make that x1000 and you have deimos, protea, kuva weapons, necramech farm..] I dont mind the grind, its part of the game, but grinding in the same spot, same mission, for hours upon hours, is boring as hell...))

 

Finisher words:

I know you want us to play your game DE, after all, thats your job... But forcing us is not the way, make the game more interesting instead of less... Then we will play a lot more.. There is a reason this game hasnt launched to fame like others and its because the only reason it keeps going is because you have veterans that keep coming back, even after breaks.. then we find the game is still in a deplorable state of affairs, get bored and wait another year to come back.. What are you gonna do when you run out of veterans? You had ways of making warframe a great success, you could have put a lot of effort into conclave and bring this game into the forefront of e-sports (or at least make it fun for the ones who want to play conclave), you could have put more effort into the narrative, the story, instead of launching a cinematic quest every time the game is about to die, just to revitalize it for a couple months, but instead you are wasting your time, looking through youtube to find one nerd who pressed e all along a mission and you went "OMG, THIS CANT BE HAPPENING, WE NEED TO FIX THIS" Fix your priorities first, I beg of you, this game has all the potential it needs, you just need to start listening to your goddamned, nerdy, kinda bored but with nothing else to do, completionist, ninja loving, player base.

good points. because mele is not effective after all.
Leaf turns however with heaps of status procs from ranged weapons and new status procs from the mele with "Condition Overload".
there are also enough ranged aoe weapons that perform well against unfueled mobs on SP ...

example would be: Bubonico
against trash aoe is great. 3 status procs with almost double status proc chance. I can even kill fueled mobs quickly enough with the left button. there is also unlimited ammunition.

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1 hour ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

(Just mashing E to get through a mission... what's the problem here? E (or O on PS4 controller) is the button you use to melee... it's how the game works... you have to mash R2 to shoot a gun just the same (or just hold, in some cases)).

Apparently there's other buttons though.  Controlling things like "melee combos" and "ranged weapons" and "abilities".   And there's "movement" controls that are purportedly more elaborate than taking a few steps toward your next melee target.

  At least, that's what I read in the wiki.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(The devs were referencing a specific video by the way.  Whether you agree or disagree with anything they said, their comments make more sense in that context.)

 

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DE needs more focus and creativity. Why change in melle? DE dont remember about melee 3.0? With melee 3.0 you guys killed zaws! Now want to nerf all melles? Really i cant understand!

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18 minutes ago, Vaml77 said:

DE needs more focus and creativity. Why change in melle? DE dont remember about melee 3.0? With melee 3.0 you guys killed zaws! Now want to nerf all melles? Really i cant understand!

Nothing comes close to melee , now you might say "lets buff everything else" but that would just make things worse as you essentially just pushed power creep to new heights. So for the sake balance sacrifices has to be made.

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50 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Apparently there's other buttons though.  Controlling things like "melee combos" and "ranged weapons" and "abilities".   And there's "movement" controls that are purportedly more elaborate than taking a few steps toward your next melee target.

  At least, that's what I read in the wiki.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(The devs were referencing a specific video by the way.  Whether you agree or disagree with anything they said, their comments make more sense in that context.)

 

The fact that CAN be done doesn't phase me. It was a showcase of something that doesn't really happen when real people are playing the game. I'm always bullet jumping, flipping around, ground slamming, taking out priority targets before trash, etc... I use warframe abilities depending on the frame and situation (I don't spam any). I'm not a min-maxer; I play for fun, and I'd rate myself somewhere between Casual and Hardcore, though at neither extreme. I never use guns because I hate gun gameplay. I can use guns in many other games (such as Destiny, but I hate guns so... yeah, I don't play Destiny or Call of Duty or .... any game that focuses or forces gun gameplay.) I prefer the up-close melee combat of fun weapons, not point and delete enemies from a distance.

(I still detest and avoid with extreme prejudice all melee combos in this game... I HATE them with a passion, and will go quick-melee for the life of the game, but that's not because it's "easier" to quick melee... it's more fun for me, more precision, more control... combos are anti-fun removing control from the player and fling them all over the place and even over cliffs. I do quick melee even though it's not as efficient damage-wise, without any forced procs or anything good associated with it, aside from how it feels to play.)

That video should not influence the balance of melee in this game one iota. Sorry. (yes it helps make the devs comments make more sense in context, but still emphasizes the OP's point and mine, that they're reacting to something that is an over dramatized non-thing that doesn't "really" happen in the real game. (don't get me started about balancing weapon speed for aesthetics... just... makes my head hurt.)

 

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11 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

(I still detest and avoid with extreme prejudice all melee combos in this game... I HATE them with a passion, and will go quick-melee for the life of the game, but that's not because it's "easier" to quick melee... it's more fun for me, more precision, more control... combos are anti-fun removing control from the player and fling them all over the place and even over cliffs. I do quick melee even though it's not as efficient damage-wise, without any forced procs or anything good associated with it, aside from how it feels to play.)

Uhh are you stuck in 2018? Cause quick melee as you seem to perceive it hasn’t been a thing for quite some time now. 

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17 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

yes it helps make the devs comments make more sense in context, but still emphasizes the OP's point and mine, that they're reacting to something that is an over dramatized non-thing that doesn't "really" happen in the real game.

I'd call it an illustration.  Unrealistic, yeah, but taken to an extreme to convey a truth. 

As far as the larger issue goes, that's all fine.  It's a subject on which reasonable people can disagree.

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2 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

Nothing comes close to melee , now you might say "lets buff everything else" but that would just make things worse as you essentially just pushed power creep to new heights. So for the sake balance sacrifices has to be made.

I've got some bad news for you, that's exactly what they intend to do. It's meant to be a massive buff to guns and a minor nerf to melee. Ofcourse must people have taken this as just nerfing melee in to the ground.

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11 hours ago, Krankbert said:

This is a direct response to a claim made by the OP. If you want to know what the community of this forum really thinks about guns vs melee, go back a few weeks when people weren't angling to prevent a nerf to melee. Before last Friday, there wasn't the slightest bit of controversy about the state of melee vs the state of guns.

I think people just want more good guns. Theyre just concerned about melee as am i.

11 hours ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

Um, did i say otherwise?

 

No? But that seems to be DE's intention. Guns are fine outside of steel path for anything under level 100ish.

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7 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I am very much hoping that they're not.

Scaling mods are very, very clearly the outliers in this equation. Nothing else in Melee's arsenal even comes close.

Hey! That's DEs version of "balance". Dumb? Extremely.

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12 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I was under the impression that steel path was meant to be a sideshow and not the new thing to balance the whole game around. 

 

It wasn't, until they added things like Umbra forma. Now if people can't get through it easily, they'll complain and make youtube videos demanding their weapons be able to tear through steel path so they can feel good. 

They are going to buff primaries so that ttk is barely longer than doing a sortie. 

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After the stream, it's been interesting seeing how many people here on the forums are in denial about just how bad the melee situation in this game actually is

OP claims "nobody plays this game mashing E", willfully ignorant of the fact that's what everyone does. This isn't a Steel Path thing, this is at every level of gameplay.

Running the tutorial? Ranged weapons need multiple headshots to kill, but (as of melee 3.0) all starter melee weapons are coded to kill every enemy (except Vor) in one hit without mods. Going through the Starchart? You will max out Pressure Point long before Serration. Endgame player doing Arbitration and Steel Path? Melee mods are far stronger than gun mods, you will deal more damage more often faster

 

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