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So where is “Rage mode” ? Let’s finish the melee rework before moving on to other things?


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From the dev workshop in 2019... 

THE FUTURE

14. Lastly: Channeling 2.0 AKA “Rage Mode”
There has been a lot of discussion around this addition, and while it will not be included in the Phase 2 update, there is a lot of work being put into its application. This system is very special and we want to make sure that it is not just a cool addition, but that it has roots in Warframes lore, and a story behind it. This is something we want to implement with a lot of in-game fanfare and details will become available as progress is made.

DE should really finish their melee rework before moving on to nerfing melee? Phase 3?  It’s been 2 years... 

Edited by (XBOX)YoungGunn82
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Turns out regular melee became so OP without it that the only way we're going to get it is after the current melee gets nerfed.

::Edit:: Please remember that not all users are in Dark Mode, because some of us are actually in a well-lit and comfortably balanced room while looking at a computer so Dark Mode creates un-necessary reflections. Any Dark Mode users will be able to see your text without the colour change, while any Light Mode user cannot.

Edited by Birdframe_Prime
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I thought they would use Rage Mode as cover for nerfing melee outside of that mode.  That could still happen I guess, but for now it gets added to the thick file of things I've been wrong about.

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3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Turns out regular melee became so OP without it that the only way we're going to get it is after the current melee gets nerfed.

Gunblades and now Chakrams (aka glaives which are for some reason called that despite not being a polearm) are op, a few stances became op due to stupid multiplier as a result of mindlessly cutting apart and animation lock glueing different attacks while removing most nuances stances had, rare weapons like gram prime became op (for their category as it beats other heavy blades by circa 30% dps) simply because it released with melee 2.9998 stats and got buffed again, otherwise no.

Melee became a hot issue mostly due to the video by shy being taken in completely the worst wrong way possible by loads of people accurate to her descriptions and compounded by the prior deimos/infested in general being a bit iffy for the headshot vs weakspot crew (and with viral immunity) and most of all showing how derp/still lacking some mod and choices tied to them are (beam range not being exilus, no prime blunderbuss, shotgun status nerf by pellet count, weak corrupt mods, reliance on 3 gates of rng, etc) as people keep returning to theorycrafting when there are content droughts or drips that dont tie to core loop.

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13 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

otherwise no.

Point of clarity, this is actually not true.

The reason that melee is considered OP is because of the system that supports it. The fact that no melee is truly single target, the way many guns are, due to follow-through and radial damage, and the fact that they have a ramping mechanic that allows for significantly more power incredibly quickly, makes them simply easier and more effective than all but the widest affecting guns. With the fact that even the worst melee weapon can ramp up using combo-scaling mods to have high crit, high status, multiplied damage from both Status and Mods, high attack speed, a large radius of attack, and on top of all that has stances with guaranteed Bleed on regular attacks, guaranteed staggers to prevent enemy movement, and multiplied damage per hit at base... These are all multiplicative things that guns do not have in almost any form.

I have genuine experience of this by creating Riven builds for the Mk-1 Bo and Mk-1 Furax that are able to kill enemies at significant speeds up to and including the Steel Path level where similarly powerful Riven builds for single-target rifles (whether auto, semi, or sniper) or even shotguns cannot keep up because they cannot take their bonuses from one enemy to the next as easily as Melee can. While I can build a Rubico Prime to pop the heads off enemies on Steel Path very reliably, it just cannot be done at the speed a normal melee weapon can tear down a crowd of enemies, and the melee is not limited by things like the need to hit crit-points (like headshots) and can even bypass things like Nox armour or simple things like a stagger throwing off aim.

Melee is not considered OP because it deals out so much damage per hit, and Shy's video is simply the little white tip of the pimple on this cystic issue that players like me have brought up since the actual changes were implemented. We saw the way the hot new builds like the Heavy Attacks or Hybrid Fill and Discharge Combo tactics all devolved into trying to come close to what the Kronen Prime could do. We saw the way that weapons could be built to out-do guns right from the moment people realised that Heat was now scaling damage and Viral was more effective at killing armour than Corrosive was.

Guns can't compete because it's genuinely just easier to achieve the relative damage and sustain necessary with a melee.

And it's only become more apparent with the release of the Steel Path because now people have actual damage sponge enemies to go to town on and observe the difference between the higher caps of damage from the guns vs the melee.

If anything the actual video that people needed to watch on the topic was from... I think he goes by KnightmareFrame, where he regularly hits the 9999 Level cap with different builds and he used a Banshee, Kronen Prime and the Kuva Nukor (for pure status proc'ing, not rivens) to literally out damage everything on the board with those fast-attacking melee weapons. And that was back in late 2019.

It's not a new issue, and Shy is just the troll with the platform to make a highly telling video at the right time for DE to be promising new things.

That said, I have one bit of explanation for you that you won't find so argumentative from me:

13 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Chakrams (aka glaives which are for some reason called that despite not being a polearm)

This is from the game DE worked on before, Dark Sector. The main character's weapon was called a Glaive, despite being a thrown weapon not resembling the actual pole-arm. In the game this was because it was supposedly an adaptive blade weapon that could be seen as a 'spear' by some or a different blade by others. That, and the meaning of the word Glaive has likewise adapted over time.

Originally the word Glaive has etymology from swords, like the Gladius or Claymore, it was used in a more 'romanticised' way in those eras to describe that the person had a blade. In English, because of the usage in French, it was used to describe a person with a spear due to how important/common spearmen were in an army. In modern French, though, it's used to describe a short sword, and many scholars believe that it's the length of the blade, rather than the hilt or pole it's attached to, that made it a glaive in historical use.

There is also sci-fi roots to the name, the movie Krull uses the name for a thrown weapon, as does the movie Blade (and its sequels).

So we have some precedence for 'Glaives' being the close range melee you can also throw. Despite the fact that these sci-fi uses are not even slightly related to the actual use of the word 'glaive', we're kind of stuck with it from here-on.

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5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Point of clarity, this is actually not true.

Except it is. Few exceptions, higher skill floor (aka less need for skill/less punishment for failure) and cleave that doesnt require positioning are the factors why people go for melee. Remove two and we return to pre melee 2.9 when short of meme strike (which was only op because of its place in crit calculation/BR stacking it) where you wont actually see pure melee gameloops even 1/20th as often since loss of combo counter actually meant a lot.

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The reason that melee is considered OP is because of the system that supports it.

You mean terrible animation locked stances, no ability to aim strikes, multiple enemies which outright cant be hit by melee or ignore rules specifically only for melee and only when not on open maps. Ok.

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I have genuine experience of this by creating Riven builds for the Mk-1 Bo and Mk-1 Furax.
 

Rivens are not and never will be part of balance, Its RNG loot boxes that can have more than a 9x total damage multiplier to a build.

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

devolved into trying to come close to what the Kronen Prime could do

You mean have a unbalanced stance and for some reason carryover multihit guaranteed slash on heavy with no actual power curve breaking stats on the weapon itself? Almost as if its not the weapon at fault but a outlier in stances and... well actually DEs trash choice to double crit mods on heavy rather than guaranteed proc on heavy itself since otherwise it wouldnt be much of a issue even with block canceled spam of heavy attacks.

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Guns can't compete because it's genuinely just easier to achieve the relative damage and sustain necessary with a melee.

Guns cant compete because people gravitate to efficient lazyness aka reward for skill to aim or aim for headshots as damage levels being percieved as too low when in fact its close to parity because the weakest per hit damage of melee is massively lower than that of guns.

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And it's only become more apparent with the release of the Steel Path because now people have actual damage sponge enemies to go to town on and observe the difference between the higher caps of damage from the guns vs the melee.
 

Ah, you mean how you can mow down a pack with a scindo prime about as well as a karak wraith. And which also actually shows that its outliers like gram for its category, blind justice/sovereign outcast/technically final harbinger, etc as far as stances go and in general just the derp with heavy attacks especially for gunblades and glaives thats the problem?

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Where he regularly hits the 9999

By 9999 you should just use Octavia. Hell at 5k+ you should just go for it... Or anything power stacking with Breach Surge or Nyx4 specter absorb or Gara, just maybe Saryn if on a good tileset.

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

So we have some precedence for 'Glaives' being the close range melee you can also throw. Despite the fact that these sci-fi uses are not even slightly related to the actual use of the word 'glaive', we're kind of stuck with it from here-on.

I know about HT/OG tenno and his glaive and no it doesnt come from gladius as per historical records it starts in 13th to 14th century military formation notes and has always been used for pole weapons (its due to a series of self citing assertions which confuse that glaive in 19th century and beyond france was used; mostly in commercial manner for any blade on stick in a weird reverse of the more english case of razor, going from specific shaving instrument to descriptor for anything with a sharp edge; sourced mostly in the AHD, where as the OED actually notes it and a few other north european languages all using a similar word as lance, spear or plain any sharp or pointy pole weapon). Either way my point is that the stance name line should be changed to at least "thrown melee" like on the rest of the mods or be renamed to chakrams which is closest in throwing disc idea (while keeping the specific weapon and its prime named derpily as reference).

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59 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

You mean terrible animation locked stances, no ability to aim strikes, multiple enemies which outright cant be hit by melee or ignore rules specifically only for melee and only when not on open maps. Ok.

Uhhh... I'm just going to leave you to this, because... yikes.

If this is your response, logic's never talking you around, have fun down that personal rabbit hole.

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21 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

pretty sure "rage mode" is replaced with this "lifted enemies" which was somehow deemed a "fit" replacement for energy channeling.

hey, i have no complaints about Lift Status, it counts as a Status Effect for Condition Overload :D
by all means!

7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And it's only become more apparent with the release of the Steel Path because now people have actual damage sponge enemies to go to town on and observe the difference between the higher caps of damage from the guns vs the melee.

i have to suggest that Players are kinda just bad, or something? because frankly for me, the difference between Steel Path and not on most non Boss Enemies, is.... almost imperceptible.
instead of the Enemy dying to a single hit, they maybe die with a few but either way dies in like a few hundred Milliseconds or 1 second tops, and that's still basically instant.

Melee can certainly perform with less effort than Guns, but it's not like Guns don't Kill stuff just fine anyways. idunno.
granted i rarely try to use Weapons that aren't Hybrid, seeing as there's hardly any scenarios where a non Hybrid Weapon is worth using.

 

so i then have to wonder, are these grumbles about the 0.01% doing Endurance Missions? seems unlikely.
is it the normies seeing Endurance and basing their opinions off of that? hmm. maybe, normies in every sector of the World do tend to blindly parrot whatever they're told.
is it people being bad at Killing stuff and so Melee is easier for them since it has a lower floor of competence(no offense)? again, maybe.

does it really seem like it maters much when the 99% is only ever playing like one Rotation of Endless at most, and such? all of their Weapons Kill Enemies almost effortlessly there, sooo... :confused:

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2 hours ago, taiiat said:

Melee can certainly perform with less effort than Guns, but it's not like Guns don't Kill stuff just fine anyways. idunno

so i then have to wonder, are these grumbles about the 0.01% doing Endurance Missions? seems unlikely.
is it the normies seeing Endurance and basing their opinions off of that? hmm. maybe, normies in every sector of the World do tend to blindly parrot whatever they're told.
is it people being bad at Killing stuff and so Melee is easier for them since it has a lower floor of competence(no offense)? again, maybe.

does it really seem like it maters much when the 99% is only ever playing like one Rotation of Endless at most, and such? all of their Weapons Kill Enemies almost effortlessly there, sooo... 😕

People not modding/using auto install, refusing to aim, people not putting the forma required for a full build on a weapon, using elements enemies are resistant too/not focusing ancients (which takes SP to be notable/actually be a priority target) and likely using a few outliers for dps measure instead of the average of the top end.
Maybe also the 30 min survival if the person is really bad.

I mean just above you have people that think the base game systems support melee more than guns despite performance of lift status, animation lock stance glue, wall attacks being derped for ages, hitboxes still counting full interact for weakspot detection (which tbf also hurts aoe/explosive weapons in some cases if you dont do the very basic bit of aiming), etc.

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3 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

multiple enemies which outright cant be hit by melee or ignore rules specifically only for melee and only when not on open maps.

What. Aside from some boss weakpoints, and dargyns/drop ships if you don't want to put in effort, there's literally nothing that can't be meleed.

Right now, automatic rfiles struggle to break 70k dps, and automatic secondaries struggle to break 100k. Meanwhile, 8 condition CO built melees range from 250k on pure physical kronen builds that also apply 1-2 true damage bleeds per hit, to 900k dps monsters like the Silva and Aegis Prime. The worst melee follow through value in the game is .4, almost all deal much higher, making melee's target cap literally everything within it's modded 4.5 to 6m reach. I don't think a melee exists in this game that doesn't casually break 200k dps at current, something only secondary shotguns and explosive primaries do otherwise.

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16 minutes ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

some boss weakpoints

Ah yes, by some you mean every that has a invul body+weakpoint mechanic, thumpers and for a really nice chunk of stances nox helmet break.

16 minutes ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

Right now, automatic rfiles struggle to break 70k dps, and automatic secondaries struggle to break 100k. Meanwhile, 8 condition CO built melees range from 250k on pure physical kronen builds that also apply 1-2 true damage bleeds per hit, to 900k dps monsters like the Silva and Aegis Prime. The worst melee follow through value in the game is .4, almost all deal much higher, making melee's target cap literally everything within it's modded 4.5 to 6m reach. I don't think a melee exists in this game that doesn't casually break 200k dps at current, something only secondary shotguns and explosive primaries do otherwise.

CO takes outside sources and/or time to ramp in which case i can equally argue snipers do 2140million dps because of roar/breach surge, sonar and sniper combo.
In reality meanwhile you float on a 40~50k average or 150~170k for performance in good conditions line on their own.

Also galaxy brain move on taking exactly 2 weapons whose stances i noted as outliers as per:

4 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

And which also actually shows that its outliers like gram for its category, blind justice/sovereign outcast/technically final harbinger, etc as far as stances go and in general just the derp with heavy attacks especially for gunblades and glaives thats the problem?

S&AP on its own, despite having a stance attack chain with OVER DOUBLE the average performance, doesnt even hit 1/3rd of your claimed performance at max ramp assuming you dont sac between 58% to 79% of your potential dps to put in a duration mod or sac either stance or op school for it in which case the 270k drops closer to the 170k noted above or give up primed reach which why the hell would you when melees greatest strength is exactly the cleave.

Now unless you're confusing things that are universally applicable external damage modifiers to dps (like viral) your numbers are way off, if not then your numbers are still way off because just the good old catchmoon and kuva nukor which cant even headshot thus take in effect one of the bigger multiplier options of guns (headcrits) hit 80-100k depending on mods.

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1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

CO takes outside sources and/or time to ramp in which case i can equally argue snipers do 2140million dps because of roar/breach surge, sonar and sniper combo.
In reality meanwhile you float on a 40~50k average or 150~170k for performance in good conditions line on their own.

Also galaxy brain move on taking exactly 2 weapons whose stances i noted as outliers as per:

When the CO ramp takes less time than the cast time of roar from proper prep weapons, it's beyond silly to discount it. It's also something entirely frame agnostic. Sniper combo should be considered, especially for the Rubico which only needs one hit to apply a multiplier. But I didn't even reference single shot weapons, I specifically mentioned automatic rifles.

And they're hardly outliers : https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Stance that said, I only used them because I remembered where the fell from comparisons. And no, those numbers don't include viral. S&AP modded with Condition Overload, Blood Rush, Primed Fever Strike, Voltaic Strike, Primed Reach, Berserker, and Drifiting Contact has base DPS of 8,572.3 at 12x combo and 0 status. At 8 statuses (5 from prep weapon, 2 forced from the first hit of the combo, 1 applied by S&AP) that's 8572.3*10.6*8.8525=804,394 dps.  Even if we just drop CO for PPP that's 201,098.65 dps 12x combo.

Tonfas, Claws, Sword and Shield, Swords, Daggers, Fists, Nikanas, Sparring, Rapiers, Gunblades, Polearms, Dual Daggers, Dual Swords, Warfans, and Staves all have combos available over 600% of weapon damage per second. 15 out of 24 melee types. If we drop the threshold to 500%, Heavy Blade, Whip, Blade and Whip, Nunchaku, Hammers, Scythes and Machetes join the party too.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Now unless you're confusing things that are universally applicable external damage modifiers to dps (like viral) your numbers are way off, if not then your numbers are still way off because just the good old catchmoon and kuva nukor which cant even headshot thus take in effect one of the bigger multiplier options of guns (headcrits) hit 80-100k depending on mods.

I include the catchmoon under the secondary shotgun list, and yeah it still can break 200k dps. You're severely overrating the kuva nukor by itself though. Built for max dps without outside buffs, the kuva nukor only hits 66k sustained dps, and 44k if you use 2 60/60 mods on it.

Headshot crits do bring some guns up, but there's tons of overhand melee swings that will still generate headshots. Even then, it's unlikely to be the bulk of your gun damage, unless you play slowly. Headcrits are also not equal across factions, Human corpus units take 2x damage on a headshot, but don't take the additional 2x damage on a headcrit in addition to the that.

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54 minutes ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

You're severely overrating the kuva nukor by itself though. Built for max dps without outside buffs, the kuva nukor only hits 66k sustained dps, and 44k if you use 2 60/60 mods on it.

it would be hard for someone to overrate Kuva Nukor, when it generally outperforms every other Gun in the game, by virtue of it having all of the cool stuff at once. high Crits, extreme Status, a ton of automatic AoE, and the ability to multi-hit.

doesn't compete with the theoretical Melee numbers, but plenty to wipe rooms of dudes when things have little EHP. and if things get really serious, the multi-hits will be very competitive with Melee, as long as your Framerate doesn't tank too much from it.

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2 hours ago, taiiat said:

it would be hard for someone to overrate Kuva Nukor, when it generally outperforms every other Gun in the game, by virtue of it having all of the cool stuff at once. high Crits, extreme Status, a ton of automatic AoE, and the ability to multi-hit.

doesn't compete with the theoretical Melee numbers, but plenty to wipe rooms of dudes when things have little EHP. and if things get really serious, the multi-hits will be very competitive with Melee, as long as your Framerate doesn't tank too much from it.

The Kuva Nukor is great, as a primer or a weapon. Doesn't change that his dps numbers for it are 50 to 100% higher than it actually outputs.

Edited by nooneyouknow13
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1 hour ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

The Kuva Nukor is great, as a primer or a weapon. Doesn't change that his dps numbers for it are 50 to 100% higher than it actually outputs.

not if you use multi-hits.

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38 minutes ago, taiiat said:

not if you use multi-hits.

If you're counting the chains, the melee goes even higher because of no target cap and high follow through. If you mean multishot, that was already included.

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5 hours ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

When the CO ramp takes less time than the cast time of roar from proper prep weapons, it's beyond silly to discount it. It's also something entirely frame agnostic. Sniper combo should be considered, especially for the Rubico which only needs one hit to apply a multiplier. But I didn't even reference single shot weapons, I specifically mentioned automatic rifles.

And they're hardly outliers : https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Stance that said, I only used them because I remembered where the fell from comparisons. And no, those numbers don't include viral. S&AP modded with Condition Overload, Blood Rush, Primed Fever Strike, Voltaic Strike, Primed Reach, Berserker, and Drifiting Contact has base DPS of 8,572.3 at 12x combo and 0 status. At 8 statuses (5 from prep weapon, 2 forced from the first hit of the combo, 1 applied by S&AP) that's 8572.3*10.6*8.8525=804,394 dps.  Even if we just drop CO for PPP that's 201,098.65 dps 12x combo.

Totally not like a free 1.6~2x more total damage compared to standard matters and that there are primed mods that are niche that cant even reach those numbers, lets see
a few regular attacks

 

Vermillion Storm     Crimson Hurricane           473.68%/s
Tempo Royale     August Mesto           408.6%/s
Shimmering Blight     Slashing Wind           526.32%/s
Vengeful Revenant     Lone Vengeance           387.1%/s
Crushing Ruin     Shattered Village           400%/s

vs

Sovereign Outcast     Scout Command           720%/s
Blind Justice     Guiding Light           730.77%/s
Four Riders     Eternal Fall           761.9%/s
Pointed Wind     Parting Edge           774.19%/s
Seismic Palm     Quaking Touch           774.19%/s
Fracturing Wind     Trailing Doom           789.47%/s
High Noon     Tomahawk Double-Tap           857.14%/s
Sovereign Outcast     Rogue Edict           859.65%/s
Final Harbinger     Null Warning           885.25%/s
Crossing Snakes     East to West           888.89%/s

Ah yes, clearly 10 attacks on 9 stances, 3 of which are inefficient for full damage due to animations, 2 on the low end of base damage weapon types and only 4 actually having slash procs in them being 3 of the mentioned ones. Clearly that happening to overlap with the most used non-free weapons as per usage chart has nothing to do with that, noo, couldnt be that a massive damage modifier outlier is the cause. And no, you assume instant 12 combo and 8 statuses, when in fact its one strike with no procs and one with 1.5~ on average so even at max combo thats below 170k despite PFS, to which as said i can equally claim 2400 mil dps on most guns by just saying "muh sonar".

Adding external performance fluffers in the first case is pointless as you could just shoot or swing one more time and kill the target.

5 hours ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

I include the catchmoon under the secondary shotgun list, and yeah it still can break 200k dps. You're severely overrating the kuva nukor by itself though. Built for max dps without outside buffs, the kuva nukor only hits 66k sustained dps, and 44k if you use 2 60/60 mods on it.

Headshot crits do bring some guns up, but there's tons of overhand melee swings that will still generate headshots. Even then, it's unlikely to be the bulk of your gun damage,

KNukor has 33 base damage, 107.5 with Hornet, 333.3 with 2 60/60 for viral and regular heated charge, that then with a 20% crit chance, 10x crit damage, 2x headshot, 2.8x from multishot and 1.6 fire rate is a minimum of 70k dps (80-90 with PHC depending on if you wanna tweak other mods with similar alts/shift to pure rad heat) on first target.
If you go for a unreasonably dumb (and worse actual performance due to value of procs) non status elemental case youd hit 100k.
And yes actually aiming will give you the bulk of your damage because its literally a total damage multiplier and on crit (against all enemies that arent already paper that die to tool build pox despite steel path modifiers) it will be more than half your damage.

Also no, most overhead swings suffer from prior mentioned full swing hitcheck which means it doesnt count as headshot, even new Rending crane neutral has dumb issues with something as basic as cracking a nox helm.

 

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14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

KNukor has 33 base damage, 107.5 with Hornet, 333.3 with 2 60/60 for viral and regular heated charge, that then with a 20% crit chance, 10x crit damage, 2x headshot, 2.8x from multishot and 1.6 fire rate is a minimum of 70k dps (80-90 with PHC depending on if you wanna tweak other mods with similar alts/shift to pure rad heat) on first target.

NZdNPZ6.png

Like I said, 44k sustained. You're quoting single mag, and assuming a headshot is hilarious, you're not going to get 100% headshots unless you play slower than dirt, and never have a grineer turn around to deploy a blunt.

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Vermillion Storm     Crimson Hurricane           473.68%/s

oHo9iXv.png

You completely missed the neutral combo? Or are you just focusing on 700+? And yes, some stances are bad. You've cheery picked such odd example, I don't know what you're going for here.

 

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

And no, you assume instant 12 combo and 8 statuses, when in fact its one strike with no procs and one with 1.5~ on average so even at max combo thats below 170k despite PFS

Of course I'm calcing max combo, because it's trivially easy to hit and keep for entire missions. Both a primary vermisplicer, and kuva nukor are capable of putting up 5 statuses in under a second on multiple targets. There's also no holster time to worry about, since we have instant swapping. I'm not counting warframe buffs, because they're warframe buffs, and aside from toxic lash, they favor everything equally.

dcQzr9j.png

It takes a whopping 4 statuses for the Rakta Dark Dagger to exceed 200k dps as max combo using pointed wind, using the same build I listed for the S&AP above. And that's a pretty mid tier at best weapon. But hey, let's look at the Scindo you compared to a karak wraith instead, same build as above but we'll drop Voltaic Strike for Weeping Wounds:

Fd1wBUt.png

And it breaks 200k at 3 statuses, and this isn't even using the highest damage combo available to heavy blades. But hey, I should include a reference build for the karak wraith...except it's too big of a curb stomp, so I'll use the kuva karak instead:

eQEX1KT.png

You need to use actual big boys for guns to realistically compete with melee, such as the Stahlta alt fire:

KHoHlVl.png

Almost 200k sustained dps on this bad boy, even reloading after every shot. And the explosion radius is huge, so it competes well with melee range and follow through. There are precious few guns in this class.

 

Non-explosive guns, ESPECIALLY automatic rifles, are in a god awful spot. Meanwhile, thanks to base stat buffs, and stance buffs, melee is doing more damage than it ever has, even with CO and Blood Rush toned down considerably.

Edited by nooneyouknow13
Error on Scindo chart
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I think it's worth remembering the context when "Rage Mode" was brought up: at the time, Steve and Scott were discussing Warframe's melee overhaul, but Devil May Cry 5 had also come out at the time, and clearly someone had played it and loved the game so much that they wanted its combat system in their own game. This is why we have the Lifted status effect in an unsuccessful attempt to implement juggling, for example, and why the devs fantasized out loud about a Devil Trigger-style mode. Now that the update has rolled out, its changes are pretty much self-sufficient without requiring that "Rage mode", and given the sheer amount of work that Melee 3.0 required already, the devs probably took the advantage of time and perspective to realize that their fantasy was likely not worth the trouble.

Personally, I'm actually kind of glad DE stopped before implementing that mode. I don't think it's necessary, and I think melee as we have it is already both bloated with tons of useless moves, yet simultaneously also still quite shallow due to how it still largely boils down to spamming the same attack all the time. Before adding anything else, DE ought to refine the melee system we now have, and try to make the most of what we've got.

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3 hours ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

If you're counting the chains, the melee goes even higher because of no target cap and high follow through. If you mean multishot, that was already included.

i'm referring to Punch-Through.

group up a bunch of Enemies, and use PT to hit all of them
each individual Enemy makes its own 4 Chains. so you can hit the same group of Enemies half a dozen, maybe up to a dozen times a piece.
rip your Framerate, but, the performance is there.

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10 hours ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

assuming a headshot is hilarious

TLDR so you are completely ignoring part of the skill ceiling and over half the damage AND are unfairly fluffing melee numbers by counting external buffs which not only do take time because there is not just the gun shooting bit of the animation but the swap isnt even instant, ok. Guns all then do 2400 million damage because sonar.

Whats hilarious is that you are unironically using external sources to multiply CO on outlier multiplier stances and still falling short of the initially proclaimed numbers AND ALSO completely ignoring that the entire gap you artificially fluffed just relies on CO at which point DE could do that long asked thing of just adding either a direct copy or crit version of CO for guns (even tho they dint have to because your argument was comparing quicksand instead of a realistic self contained base... and even showed off overframe values which support my point after you add average time to max combo and add non-outlier stance multi).

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You completely missed the neutral combo? Or are you just focusing on 700+? And yes, some stances are bad. You've cheery picked such odd example, I don't know what you're going for here.

No, i picked attack chains that arent animation locked to hell and back. You know the standard of pre 2.9998 melee.

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melee is doing more damage than it ever has

Again like the rest objectively false. Melee 2.0 had over 60% average mission dps (assuming you didnt fail and let combo run out) and actually scaled far better, especially when one adds your unrealistic CO fluffing.

 

Edited by Andele3025
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1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

unrealistic CO fluffing.

Kuva Nukor isn't a thing that exists, I swear!

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

TLDR so you are completely ignoring part of the skill ceiling and over half the damage AND are unfairly fluffing melee numbers by counting external buffs which not only do take time because there is not just the gun shooting bit of the animation but the swap isnt even instant, ok. Guns all then do 2400 million damage because sonar.

You completely ignoring that the kuva nukor and vermisplicer exist, while insisting there's time to headshot every enemy is just absolutely hilarious. Especially when you also pretend guns don't need to reload. The sonar strawman was addressed, but it's hilarious you keep pushing it.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

outlier multiplier stances

I even gave you a chart of a weapon you basically called trash, using a stance you don't think is "outlier", despite the stances you think are outlier being less so than the trash ones you think are normal, and it blows away your comparison points.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

No, i picked attack chains that arent animation locked to hell and back. You know the standard of pre 2.9998 melee.

Dude, what. You can roll out of any swing at anytime. I honestly don't even get this complaint. Especially when they're less animation locked than before, when we couldn't roll out of them. The only way out of a pause combo in the old system was to stop meleeing, and wait for the window to reset. Instead of like now, where you just input the combo you want to switch to and do so. Plus you know, being able to roll cancel all melee, which didn't exist before.

9 hours ago, taiiat said:

i'm referring to Punch-Through.

group up a bunch of Enemies, and use PT to hit all of them
each individual Enemy makes its own 4 Chains. so you can hit the same group of Enemies half a dozen, maybe up to a dozen times a piece.
rip your Framerate, but, the performance is there.

That still doesn't increase the weapon's single target dps, and melee still wins on the group dps because of follow through. 

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