Kuva weapon chance

[Sevek7]

Thanks for the devstream, I'm very encouraged that you're working on melee versus guns balancing, keep it up! In the discussion and presentation of Liches and Sisters of Parvos, there was a change that I was really hoping to see:

The problem: Grind time for a given specific Kuva weapon is rapidly increasing, and shifting heavily to the most boring and repetitive part of the experience: the Larvaling.

After the update, we will have 19 Kuva weapons in total. Let's say I want the new Kuva Hek. In any given mission where I kill a Larvaling I have a 1/19 chance of getting the weapon I want. To have a 90% chance of getting the weapon, I need to run the mission a whopping 43 times! 

Then, keep in mind that 10% of players will need to keep going after the 43rd run. The last time I decided to get a Kuva weapon, I spent ~20% of the time farming murmurs, stabbing the Lich to rank 5, and then finishing the job. The remaining ~80% of my time was spent hunting Larvalings until I got the weapon I wanted. 

I don't mind grinding the murmurs, because at least I'm making progress on each run. I don't mind guessing the requiem combination, because with each attempt I get closer to the correct one. What I do mind is repeating the same capture mission dozens of times and making exactly zero progress toward my goal.

Please reconsider this part of the Lich / Sisters system. 

[PublikDomain]

I saw someone else bring this up, but this process will be compounded for Sisters because each attempt at spawning a Sister will cost the most expensive Crown. You won't be able to abort the mission if you get the wrong weapon like you can with Liches, you'll have to wait around and complete the mission to get a replacement Crown.

[Mortico]

+1

And don't forget... it seems that if we want to get a sister-larvling we have to do granum void and for that we have to have enough coins... and what if the larvling doesn't have the weapon you seek? What's with the coin if you abort the mission? and if you combine that with getting every weapon with the max %toxin as I did with the current kuva weapons... it hurts just thinking about the amount of farming needed ... kinda reminds me of the 7+ layers of rng in the kuva lich system at its beginning... cruel...

[Sevek7]

3 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

this process will be compounded for Sisters because each attempt at spawning a Sister will cost the most expensive Crown.

 

3 hours ago, Mortico said:

if we want to get a sister-larvling we have to do granum void and for that we have to have enough coins

Great point! I didn't even think about this. If they keep the RNG-weapon Larvaling then this is going to be a brutal grind. I'll probably just wait 6 months until they realize the mistake and change it.

[DrivaMain]

Oh boy can’t wait to run Acheron for the 99th time! We need a way to influence the weapon’s RNG.

[Sevek7]

4 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Oh boy can’t wait to run Acheron for the 99th time! We need a way to influence the weapon’s RNG.

I am officially no longer excited for Sisters of Parvos...

[BlackAce]

9 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I saw someone else bring this up, but this process will be compounded for Sisters because each attempt at spawning a Sister will cost the most expensive Crown. You won't be able to abort the mission if you get the wrong weapon like you can with Liches, you'll have to wait around and complete the mission to get a replacement Crown.

Wait what? I missed the stream and now I'm glad I did. I would probably malding for the rest of the day if I heard that first hand.

[keTch-uP]

This needs more visibility, I think many people dont realize Corpus Larvlings at least doubled down on the time needed to spawn a specific weapon. And keep in mind this is even just the initial part of a Lich, you still need to do murmurs etc.

[Deminisis]

Had enough pain rolling Lich larvalings for a specific weapon. With 3 more kuva weapons added to the pool of RNG and the whole Granum key issue, I'm not looking forward to the release anymore...

I hope they could add something like hitting a larvaling with a shotgun will almost guarantee the larvaling will roll a shotgun.

[(NSW)Gamer-Steve]

Hm, I've mentioned in the past it would be very helpful for weapon generation if you based it on the type of weapon used to take down the Sister / Larvaling; Like using any Assault rifle to get an Assault rifle, Sniper for Sniper weapons, any Archgun to roll one of the Lich Archguns, etc.

• Took me a moment, found that post: "Kuva / Sisters of Parvos Weapon Spawning"

 

Regarding the Sisters however, what if it could be done with the other Granum Crown types as well? As long as you've completed the Tempestarii quest first of course.

[SephirothWS]

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned either is whether or not we can have a Sister and a Lich simultaneously or if the two systems are exclusive to each other, whereas if you have a Kuva Lich, you cannot get a Sister, and vice versa...

[--END--Rikutatis]

I agree, this won't be such a huge a problem for the first few weapons, but it'll become excruciating once you're down to only needing a few very specific weapons and RNG decides to go against you. 

I think most people are probably excited for the Railjack component of the bossfight as well, but for me that's another turn off because I highly dislike railjack and haven't gone through the grind to upgrade mine yet. So I guess this might become another railjack gated content I won't have much access to (at least sevagoth I can buy por plat). 

[Steel_Rook]

Yeah, the Dev Stream made my blood run cold with what they showed. It's already bad enough aborting Cassini 100 times just to force the game's RNG into spawning the weapon I want. Now with the Sisters of Parvos, that process is made substantially longer. Not only can I no longer abort the mission if I get the wrong weapon (because I need to recover the Granum Crown I've used), but I also have to deal with the Granum Void - one of the worst things in the game. I guess I can just sit on my hands and wait for the timer to count down, but that's still SO much delay it's not even funny.

We need a deterministic way to pick the weapon we get out of a Lich/Sister Larvling. Period. I don't care what it is, I don't care if it's grindy - as long as it's deterministic, I'll be happy. Scott McGregor talked about Lich Bait, scrapping one weapon in order to generate a Lich with another. That would be pretty painful but still better than the S#&$show we have now. Generating a Larvling is easily to worst, most boring, most unpleasant part of the whole Lich system. If the Sisters of Parvos launch without an improvement to Larvling generation, it's going to be dead on arrival.

Stop it with the RGN! Fine, generate my Lich/Sister randomly, I don't care. But let me pick the weapon myself. There's grind and then there's wasting my god damn time.

[Ianto]

I am glad this thread exists. I was just about to log in to mention this issue myself.

It can take hours of repeated runs to get a specific kuva weapon with the current system. Even though the mission takes no more than a minute or two to get the larvling to spawn, getting the wrong weapon, quitting, restarting and repeating is already the single most soul destroying part of the process. Even with a high end computer and a lightning fast internet connection, there is still another layer of time wasted due to the various loading and menu/result screens to go through before you can try again.

Adding in the time it takes to get the Zenith Crowns (2-4 mins getting the treasurer to spawn in the relevant mission along with it's standard completion) and the additional time in the void to proc the sister spawning, the process seems like a nightmare of wasted time in the making. You are looking at having to grind coins for hours for sister spawns that can be burned through in a fraction of that time, if you don't get the weapon you want. Failing that, you would have to complete each mission in which the wrong weapon was generated all the way to the end, making it take exponentially longer than the already frustrating system we have endured until now.

To cap all this off, due to the extra layer of RNG introduced by element roll even when you do acquire the weapon you want, you are likely to have to repeat this process, along with the full sister kill, multiple times for every single weapon.

No part of that sounds fun, or a worthy use of player time investment to be honest.

The simple solution is to remove the RNG from the generation system. Just give us a token or something similar upon vanquishing the sister that can be traded for a weapon of our choice. The random element percentage rolls can be retained if you really want some level of RNG to pad out the engagement time of the content. You can even break the tokens down by progenitor element if you wish, so a toxin token from Saryn for example. Any form of bad luck protection would be better than the proposed system though, in honesty.

[--RV--arm4geddon-117]

Running that granum void in order to have a corpus larvaling spawn is an unnecessary layer of extra grind, we don't go to rathuum arena and complete a round IF we want to have a grineer larvaling spawn AFTER. ( rathum is an example )

Just let them spawn the same way grineer ones do which is already excruciating when you gonna chase the same weapon over and over to max its bonus or need another bonus element.

[SheikaVoid]

11 minutes ago, --RV--arm4geddon-117 said:

Running that granum void in order to have a corpus larvaling spawn is an unnecessary layer of extra grind, we don't go to rathuum arena and complete a round IF we want to have a grineer larvaling spawn AFTER. ( rathum is an example )

Just let them spawn the same way grineer ones do which is already excruciating when you gonna chase the same weapon over and over to max its bonus or need another bonus element.

Essentially, they're just applying a band-aid fix to the fact that the Granum void is already abandoned content for anyone who hasn't finished the Protea quest/farmed the stuff from the void.

Additionally, gating the larvalings behind the Zenith Crown is just ridiculous, especially with how the grind for the actual Parazon mods is probably going to be just as painful as before.

[notHunky]

I think instead if they want to implement the Granum void in some way, they should have us spend a Granum crown to send her into the void AFTER we have a chance to down the larvaling and see which weapon she has. Also they should only spawn if we have a crown equipped.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

They definitively need to rework the Larvling part of the equation, as it's by far the worse part of the whole process nowadays, especially as they keep adding more weapons and diluting the pool. When you have to run the same mission 75 times in a row like I did a couple days ago to get the weapon you wanted (a bad roll at that too), and you realize they are adding three more weapons to an already bloated system where you can't influence the weapon the liches carry... Good luck getting the weapon you want when you have a 1/20 chance of it being the right weapon.

And don't get me started on the Sisters version, which seems insanely more grindy. For one, you now have to do the mission AND a granuum void each time you want to roll the slot machine, and if you don't get the roll you wanted, you basically wasted a granuum crown and you have to wait like five minutes for the treasurer to spawn to recover it not to get into negative coins real fast... Making it impossible to do quick capture runs like you do with Kuva Larvlings to roll the slot machine every minute or so... It's one thing to run a one minute mission 75 times that you could also abort about rolling the lich, but running a five minutes mission 75 times... That's something entirely different... Especially since you can't even abort it since you need to recoup your granuum crown.

Granted there will in theory be less Corpus Sister weapons at launch , but it's still a problem, especially once you have most of the weapons and you just need that last one.

Solution:

We need a way to influence what weapons the lich can carry, just like we can influence the element by using specific frames. Here's my proposal.

• The game uses the weapon used for the larvling kill to determine the weapon that spawns.
• For example, if you use a Karak on a Lich, he will have a X% chance of having the Kuva Karak. Percentage could depend on how much DE wants the process to be streamlined or not... Personally I would put 100%, but I could see them going for something like 60% or even lower to still require multiple runs, but give a way to target farm still.
• For weapons that have no other pre-existing variations (like the Kuva Bramma, Kuva Ayanga, Kuva Chakkur, Kuva Hammer Thing ), the game would either check all weapons of that category , or a specific weapon that's close in spirit to the weapon in question (Ex: Either all bow kills would have a chance to get you a Kuva Bramma or all Daikyu kills would since it's probably the closest bow in shape and size with the Bramma ).
• Or they could leave the new weapons as only being attainable as a random drop at first, then you could use your existing Kuva Bramma to farm further versions for Valence Fusion.
• For weapons not on the list of weapons that influence the weapon probability, they would retain the current behaviour of generating random drops. Basically if there's no corpus Nikana, feel free to use a nikana to kill your larvling if you want a truly random weapon with no weighting.

TLDR: Just allow us to kill the larvling with the weapon we want (ex: a karak) to give a large % chance of the lich having a Karak. There's nothing fun running the same mission over and over to reroll the weapon a guy has. And please no more giving Mastery Rank on each Sister Weapons formas. It's such a chore to level up all these weapons five times, even stuff we don't like... Make the 5 forma thing optional.

 

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

No adjustments are being made to the Requiem grind, right? The mods aren't being reduced to common rarity in the relic missions or having infinite charges?

No adjustments are being made to reduce the amount of murmur progression required to fully confront a Lich, right? We still have to murder random schmucks instead of linking the grind to, say, successfully ran missions? Even spy missions would make more sense in regards to contextualizing a Lich's weakness!

We have to waste our time & a Zenith Granum Crown in one of the most intolerably boring modes for a random Granum weapon, is that what I'm getting from what was said & what I've read?

Looks like DE really did fall outta the stupid tree & proceeded to hit every branch on the way down. I don't know if it's obstinance, ignorance or both, but there's honestly very little to look forward to with this mess they're concocting. They've had over a year's worth of feedback when it came to Liches, but they're not even going to touch up on them. Instead, they'll release the Sisters in an even more redundant state.

[SheikaVoid]

Just now, (PSN)IndianChiefJeff said:

No adjustments are being made to the Requiem grind, right? The mods aren't being reduced to common rarity in the relic missions or having infinite charges?

No adjustments are being made to reduce the amount of murmur progression required to fully confront a Lich, right? We still have to murder random schmucks instead of linking the grind to, say, successfully ran missions? Even spy missions would make more sense in regards to contextualizing a Lich's weakness!

We have to waste our time & a Zenith Granum Crown in one of the most intolerably boring modes for a random Granum weapon, is that what I'm getting from what was said & what I've read?

Looks like DE really did fall outta the stupid tree & proceeded to hit every branch on the way down. I don't know if it's obstinance, ignorance or both, but there's honestly very little to look forward to with this mess they're concocting. They've had over a year's worth of feedback when it came to Liches, but they're not even going to touch up on them. Instead, they'll release the Sisters in an even more redundant state.

Honestly, I'd have few issues if the Requiem grind wasn't so goddamn awful.

I've had countless relics drop the thirtieth Exilus adapter/riven sliver bundle and just had to call quits at that moment, lol.

Why can't there be a more meaningful way to acquire the mods themselves, now that murmurs have been streamlined?  It's like fixing the faucet but not the pipes.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

55 minutes ago, SheikaVoid said:

Why can't there be a more meaningful way to acquire the mods themselves, now that murmurs have been streamlined?  It's like fixing the faucet but not the pipes.

Requiem Relics exist because of the mods, not in spite of them, so I'll never know why DE decided to prioritize Riven Slivers (Did I mention how much I hate Rivens) over the mods.

Seriously, I really don't want to mention this because I've done so umpteen different times, but why can't Deimos, in some capacity, be used to provide an entirely new method to farm these mods? The Entrati family & the Requiems are intrinsically linked, but it seems as though DE forgot that like they forgot how Revenant was supposed to be tied to the Ropalolyst.

If I could drink myself into a stupor, I would, given DE's frequent ineptitude...

[(NSW)Gamer-Steve]

9 hours ago, (PSN)IndianChiefJeff said:

but why can't Deimos, in some capacity, be used to provide an entirely new method to farm these mods?

That's actually an interesting idea, perhaps all those Obelisks around the Cambion Drift could have a chance to drop whichever Requiem mod the symbol is for, if you do whatever you need to do for the resources, etc.?

• If an entire Requiem mod would be a bit too easy (Giving a full mod 5% to drop may not be a great idea), maybe a ^1/4 of the mod could be found there (A 10-15% drop chance for a piece?). When you have all 4 fractured pieces of said mod, you can transmute them all together to reforge that Requiem mod.
   
  • I think making it into fractured pieces could be a good alternative compared to getting an un-fractured mod from a Requiem relic, one method being faster, but the other would be a bit slower, yet doable for those who want to try it. Especially since there are a lot of Obelisks around the Drift.

 

Not sure if the Vaults should have one of the mods however, but I'd leave that up to DE.

[DoomFruit]

12 hours ago, SheikaVoid said:

Why can't there be a more meaningful way to acquire the mods themselves, now that murmurs have been streamlined?  It's like fixing the faucet but not the pipes.

And in keeping with that analogy, there seems little point in fixing the faucet or pipes when the water is filled with algae. Why should these mods even break in the first place?

[Venus-Venera]

Am 31.5.2021 um 21:39 schrieb Sevek7:

Thanks for the devstream, I'm very encouraged that you're working on melee versus guns balancing, keep it up! In the discussion and presentation of Liches and Sisters of Parvos, there was a change that I was really hoping to see:

The problem: Grind time for a given specific Kuva weapon is rapidly increasing, and shifting heavily to the most boring and repetitive part of the experience: the Larvaling.

After the update, we will have 19 Kuva weapons in total. Let's say I want the new Kuva Hek. In any given mission where I kill a Larvaling I have a 1/19 chance of getting the weapon I want. To have a 90% chance of getting the weapon, I need to run the mission a whopping 43 times! 

Then, keep in mind that 10% of players will need to keep going after the 43rd run. The last time I decided to get a Kuva weapon, I spent ~20% of the time farming murmurs, stabbing the Lich to rank 5, and then finishing the job. The remaining ~80% of my time was spent hunting Larvalings until I got the weapon I wanted. 

I don't mind grinding the murmurs, because at least I'm making progress on each run. I don't mind guessing the requiem combination, because with each attempt I get closer to the correct one. What I do mind is repeating the same capture mission dozens of times and making exactly zero progress toward my goal.

Please reconsider this part of the Lich / Sisters system. 

Yes. i find the beginning quite pointless. it would be better to distribute "the larvaling" with very few weapons per planet. then you can farm it in a targeted manner.

because now it is extremely boring! Even if the run takes 1-2 minutes, you have to restart the missions! that only bothers!

[Oorel]

The current problem;
We only have access to Kuva Liches right now, with a pool of 16 weapons. If you are looking for a specific weapon, it can easily take 40 minutes+ to get the correct Larvaling to appear doing the fastest mission possible (Cassini on Saturn). We are soon to see an increase to this weapon pool once again, reaching 19 weapons in total.
As players get more of the weapons and start looking for more and more specific Larvalings, its taking longer and longer on average to get started with your Kuva Lich and as more weapons are added to that spawning process is only worsening. 
While Sisters won't appear with as large of a weapon pool as we now have with the Kuva Liches, their acquisition is a longer process.
For those uninitiated; In a Corpus Ship mission, you will complete a Granum Void challenge (spending a Granum Crown), if you do the Sisters equivalent of the Larvaling can spawn and you can choose to start hunting that Sister for their gear or leave it to repeat and get a different weapon.
I believe that the Sisters acquisition will quickly become a problem as more weapon get added while it will be decent for the early days of the Sisters.

 

A generic solution;
A lure item for drawing out specific weapons. I believe this was part of the kuva lich system during development, however while I don't think its a very interesting solution, its a definite improvement.

 

My proposed solution;
Dividing weapons into smaller pools. This will need to be done differently based on the faction, so lets extrapolate on that.

 

Dividing Kuva Lich Weapons into smaller pools;
A kuva Larvaling will spawn in any Grineer mission above level 20. There are a lot of missions that work for this and some interesting exceptions, namely Plato on Lua. Most of the time Kuva Larvalings are spawned on either Saturn or Sedna missions.
I think the weapons can be split into smaller pools depending on their location. A group for Saturn, Sedna and Lua, but as new weapons are being added up to a total of 19 soon, there should be a new place for Larvalings to spawn to further divide the weapons.
I would propose the Kuva Fortress as a 4th location.

This could look like this in practice;

Kuva Larvaling drops:
Saturn
Kuva Kohm, Kuva Hind, Kuva Brakk, Kuva Drakgoon, Kuva Hek
Sedna
Kuva Twin Stubbas, Kuva Seer, Kuva Ogris, Kuva Ayanga, Kuva Grattler
Lua
Kuva Shildeg, Kuva Nukor, Kuva Quartakk, Kuva Shakkhurr
Kuva Fortress
Kuva Bramma, Kuva Tonkor, Kuva Karak, Kuva Kraken, Kuva Zarr

 

Dividing Sisters' Weapons into smaller pools;
As the Granum Void is involved with the Larvaling spawning in this case, the natural divider could be the Granum Crown itself determining the group of weapons the Larvaling equivalent will potentially hold.
This means mission level wont matter for Sisters, as any coin can be used on any golden hand in a mission, but getting new coins still rely on the treasurer/mission level.
Initially 3 groups of weapons will be decent for a lower weapon total than the current Grineer, as more weapons are added I believe additional Granum Crown Tiers could be a fairly simple solution to help the acquisition process down the line.

 

 

This is a solution I think could work well, however the reason I'm posting about this at all is that I think the problem itself is an important one to adress no matter how its done.