Kuva weapon chance

[Voltage]

Great ideas. I would love to see this. My only feedback is using your Grineer solution for Corpus as well. It would be much better if a consistent system was applied to both Kuva Liches and Sisters while also having infinite room for weapon expansion. Granum Crowns are an annoying mechanic to lock larvlings behind in the first place, so I would rather see the location division system applied here too.

Dividing weapons into sub-groups would be fantastic regardless.

[Oorel]

18 hours ago, Voltage said:

Great ideas. I would love to see this. My only feedback is using your Grineer solution for Corpus as well. It would be much better if a consistent system was applied to both Kuva Liches and Sisters while also having infinite room for weapon expansion. Granum Crowns are an annoying mechanic to lock larvlings behind in the first place, so I would rather see the location division system applied here too.

Dividing weapons into sub-groups would be fantastic regardless.

I'm weary of the Granum Crown implementation as well. If getting a 'Larvaling' takes a bit more time, while also getting the right weapon takes less time I'd be ok with a more involved 'Larvaling' spawning process in general.
For feedback that's suggesting specific changes and not simply pointing out an issue I felt it was appropriate to not deviate too far from what DE has communicated is already implemented to some degree though. The nature of feedback is maybe misunderstood in general for forums and I think that the most useful kind if to simply say "this doesnt work and this is why" rather than suggesting very specific fixes in detail, leave the design to the Designers. 

[Steel_Rook]

Agreed wholeheartedly. I sincerely suspect that the Sisters of Parvos would be dead on arrival if they release in the state DE described them as in the Devstream. Requiring players to go through the Granum Void and earn a crown just to get a roll at the Larvling slot machine is not acceptable. It's barely acceptable for Kuva Larvlings, and even then only because we can abort on failure. There needs to be a better way of selecting our desired weapon.

 

On 2021-06-07 at 6:35 PM, Oorel said:

A generic solution;
A lure item for drawing out specific weapons. I believe this was part of the kuva lich system during development, however while I don't think its a very interesting solution, its a definite improvement.

I'm personally in favour of Scott McGregor's generic solution you cite there, because it gives me a purely deterministic means of selecting my weapon. No need to repeat the mission, no need to hope on RNG. The weapon itself can still roll its random loot stats, just as long as it's the weapon I want. Of course, Scott proposed the cost for this being the sacrifice of a previously-earned weapon, though that was before we could pre-screen Larvling weapons. I'm willing to put extended effort into a Larvling system as long as I only need to do it once per weapon.

 

On 2021-06-07 at 6:35 PM, Oorel said:

My proposed solution;
Dividing weapons into smaller pools. This will need to be done differently based on the faction, so lets extrapolate on that.

I'm not necessarily opposed to this, though it's not my personal favourite. While reduced, it still has an RNG component which means streaks of bad luck can still cause dozens of runs before the right weapon pops up, not to mention pool dilution with additional weapons. Like Warframe elements, this is also probably going to end up as a "go check the Wiki" thing. As a compromise, however, I'd still take this over status quo. It's not BAD. It's just a compromise which leans too hard into RNG still.

With the above said - why not both? Let players scrap a Lich/Sister weapon to build a Lure OR roll on the slot machine from smaller weapon pools? I'd say that's a win-win. We pay more for more certainty, we pay less for some randomness. And before you ask "who'd ever scrap a Lich weapon over running the mission a few times" - I would. Lich content is most of what I do these days, and I'm perfectly fine running through a throwaway Lich every now and again. I take my chance with RNG, kill the first thing I get. Maybe I get what I want, or if not - burn it, spawn a Lich with for sure the weapon I want.

Giving the system some redundancy would be nice.

[Mortico]

Hey :] I've seen an idea in another similar topic. Why not let us determine which weapon spawns by equipping the normal version(or category for new weapons) of the weapon we seek? If we don't do that the randomly generated weapon would remain.

DE uses something similar right now don't they? The frame type sets the lich element. 

We remove one layer of RNG and DE gets us to need the weapon slot for the normal weapon. 

Win-Win right ? :]

[Oorel]

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

I'm not necessarily opposed to this, though it's not my personal favourite. While reduced, it still has an RNG component which means streaks of bad luck can still cause dozens of runs before the right weapon pops up, not to mention pool dilution with additional weapons.

I wish I could remember what DE did for duplicate protection, there is something like that in the live version of the game I just don't remember exactly what the implementation was. If a pool has 5 weapons maybe you wont allow duplicates to spawn until every possible option has been seen, so the order is random but there is some luck protection.
It's a bit messy, RNG is obviously a big part of the game and the monetization strategy as well. finding a good balance is important. 

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

With the above said - why not both?

Would be good. The deterministic approach is kind of expensive so that's a fair trade-off in a way. The lures as described at the time was still before Larvalings showed you their loot, so its based on that older version of the system as well, since we moved on its less relevant as Scott described it. Still, specific lures with some cost is worth doing.

[Steel_Rook]

On 2021-06-08 at 10:55 PM, Oorel said:

Would be good. The deterministic approach is kind of expensive so that's a fair trade-off in a way. The lures as described at the time was still before Larvalings showed you their loot, so its based on that older version of the system as well, since we moved on its less relevant as Scott described it. Still, specific lures with some cost is worth doing.

Yup, that's what I was thinking. Give me a deterministic "out," make it expensive and I'll be pretty happy. People can still gamble on the cheap, or they can invest to skip the gamble. I would honestly like to see less RNG for rewards in general. I know this is a looter shooter in theory at least, but I've personally always hated the RNG approach. Doubly so when it exists purely as a time sink where I have to keep repeating the same action until I get the desired discrete result.

[Fireshock]

On 2021-06-08 at 11:51 AM, Mortico said:

Hey :] I've seen an idea in another similar topic. Why not let us determine which weapon spawns by equipping the normal version(or category for new weapons) of the weapon we seek? If we don't do that the randomly generated weapon would remain.

DE uses something similar right now don't they? The frame type sets the lich element. 

We remove one layer of RNG and DE gets us to need the weapon slot for the normal weapon. 

Win-Win right ? :]

This is an idea I had also. Makes it so players have to actually build the soon to be forgotten "normal" weapons and you get to skip the RNG entirely. There's still some effort involved in building that initial weapon (especially in cases like Brakk) so it wouldn't just be free, either.

It never made sense to have to go through grind before being able to grind your Lich. There's enough grind involved with killing a Lich, there shouldn't be extra grind on top of that just to pick the weapon they have. And as OP mentioned it's only going to be worse when we can't just speedrun Cassini and are forced to do Granum Void every time.

[Xikto]

Currently we have 16 kuva weapons, that means if you want an specific kuva weapon you have 6.25% chance of getting it, if i try to tell you exact same thing in Wiki format it would be 
Expected 32-33 Runs & Nearly Guaranteed 181 ± 60, assuming each run is 1.25 minutes ur expected or general average time is gonna be around 40 minutes.
now that already is ......... well........ how do i put this........ kinda bad, and now you seem to want to add EVEN MORE to the EXACT SAME drop table.
this can be fine with some farms because they will drop other stuff or you will get many things at once, but in this case you are specifically trying to do this one thing with nearly no other reward and no a super small amount of kuva does not count, all of this just to start the actual grind is quite a bad design.

 

My solutions: We have quite a few grineer planets, just put some weapons on certain planets, like ogris can be acquired from earth mars and ceres, this gives you a lot of freedom to play with the drop %, but i think about 16.6% is a good place to put it at or in other words 6 weapons per planet,

[GwinKyblood]

welcome to RNG system 

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

Could make it go like this:

Saturn (Pistols): Brakk, Kraken, Nukor, Seer, Twin Stubbas
Uranus (Rifles/Shotguns): Drakgoon, Hind, Karak, Kohm, Quartakk
Sedna (Explosives): Ogris, Tonkor, Zarr, Grattler, Hek (nowhere else to put it really)
Kuva Fortress (Uniques): Ayanga, Bramma, Chakkhurr, Shildeg

Now you have a 20% chance for most, and a 25% chance for the unique ones.

[Artekkor]

Yes. I'm surprised the obvious accumulating issue of this hasn't been adressed yet. Couple more kuva guns and it will hell on earth to grind this content island.

[keTch-uP]

This thread keeps popping up(and rightly so), however DE has yet to adress the problem.

Keep in mind the grind will be even worse when Granum Larvlings will require a coin to spawn plus the time spent in the Granum Void. However, if DE decides not to do anything I still suggest farming Granum weapons first since you will need all  and hopefully more people realize by then how insane the Kuva weapon grind will be and start complaining.

[Xikto]

6 hours ago, keTch-uP said:

and hopefully more people realize by then how insane the Kuva weapon grind will be and start complaining

It is funny how many of these issues could be fixed if 4 members of DE were obligated to stream the game farming various items for like 5 hours a week.
Kinda mind blowing that the game developer neither plays the game nor is listening to people who actually do, they tend to stick by what they think the game is and decide how it should be without having comprehensive insight on the matter, and then forget about what island of grind they made and just move on!

[CephalonCarnage]

15 hours ago, Xikto said:

members of DE were obligated to stream the game farming various items for like 5 hours a week

"So today, we;re going to farm a damaged necramech weapon barrel. Oh look, theres one, first run, how lucky we are. Why do people complain about this?"

😆

 

I think that all drop tables need to be tweaked per user, so when a player gets a drop, that item reduces its chance by 1% and all others are increased slightly. Over time, the drops you do not get will slowly increase in drop chance. Next thing: players complan that they cannot farm for multiples of 1 specific item as it slowly reduces in chance. So you're damned no matter what they do.

[Xikto]

10 hours ago, gbjbaanb said:

"So today, we;re going to farm a damaged necramech weapon barrel. Oh look, theres one, first run, how lucky we are. Why do people complain about this?"

😆

 

I think that all drop tables need to be tweaked per user, so when a player gets a drop, that item reduces its chance by 1% and all others are increased slightly. Over time, the drops you do not get will slowly increase in drop chance. Next thing: players complan that they cannot farm for multiples of 1 specific item as it slowly reduces in chance. So you're damned no matter what they do.

If they got that lucky, i am willing to accept that, because anything more than nothing is something!

Yes there are many things that in reality must be done about the RNG system, my biggest complaint is the fact that the system is not cycle based and is a loose RNG system, as in it doesn't have a X cycle that will 100% have all of the possible drops for example if you have 6 drops (with similar chances) then make a cycle of 12 or perhaps 18 and it will 100% have proportionate number of items in that cycle, the concept of 'getting lucky' will equally apply but if you get as unlucky as possible, you are rest assured that if you run it that many times, you WILL get what you want!

[DrivaMain]

Kuva Weapon grind is slowly becoming the riven unveil grind. More weapons added into the drop table reduces the odd of getting a desired drop. There needs to be a pity system in this grind, heck even on RNG in general.

[Venus-Venera]

Am 24.6.2021 um 17:57 schrieb Xikto:

My solutions: We have quite a few grineer planets, just put some weapons on certain planets, like ogris can be acquired from earth mars and ceres, this gives you a lot of freedom to play with the drop %, but i think about 16.6% is a good place to put it at or in other words 6 weapons per planet,

can not be otherwise. who would like to play the same mission as a robot pointlessly?
more control is urgently needed!

[sunderthefirmament]

On 2021-06-24 at 10:57 AM, Xikto said:

Currently we have 16 kuva weapons, that means if you want an specific kuva weapon you have 6.25% chance of getting it, if i try to tell you exact same thing in Wiki format it would be 
Expected 32-33 Runs & Nearly Guaranteed 181 ± 60, assuming each run is 1.25 minutes ur expected or general average time is gonna be around 40 minutes.
now that already is ......... well........ how do i put this........ kinda bad, and now you seem to want to add EVEN MORE to the EXACT SAME drop table.
this can be fine with some farms because they will drop other stuff or you will get many things at once, but in this case you are specifically trying to do this one thing with nearly no other reward and no a super small amount of kuva does not count, all of this just to start the actual grind is quite a bad design.

 

My solutions: We have quite a few grineer planets, just put some weapons on certain planets, like ogris can be acquired from earth mars and ceres, this gives you a lot of freedom to play with the drop %, but i think about 16.6% is a good place to put it at or in other words 6 weapons per planet,

I love this suggestion.  It would also alleviate the sheer Cassini-ness of the current system.

[Xikto]

I really hope they address this when adding the new kuva weapons, or there will be complaints about new kuva weapons being hard to get when the odds per kuva weapon go down from 6.25 to 5.2% per kuva weapon which is entering whole new tiers of bad.

Like it probably will be so that sometimes starting the lich takes longer than doing the lich itself, and remember that we need up to 10 (let's say average 5) liches per weapon to make a 60% one.

[OwlOfJune]

https://old.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/octfzq/new_kuva_lich_weapons_are_great_but_perhaps_it_is/

 

Made similar post on Reddit, for some reason ppl upvoted it at first by now being downvoted heavily to zero.

EDIT : Now it is on positive. Guess I triggered some very salty Kuva Mafia or sthing.

[Schwitzer]

The pool dilution is especially bothersome for those who wish to rank up their Kuva weapons to 60% as they then need to do multiple runs per weapon. 

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

I support this

 

DE:

we all know the True Purpose of Kuva Weapons, is to encourage Forma Sales.

making it easier for players to obtain those Kuva Weapons, will therefore speed up Forma Sales.

that is a $$win$$ for everyone.

 

(see what I did there? gotta speak their $language$)

 

[Yamazuki]

On 2021-07-04 at 4:48 PM, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

I support this

 

DE:

we all know the True Purpose of Kuva Weapons, is to encourage Forma Sales.

making it easier for players to obtain those Kuva Weapons, will therefore speed up Forma Sales.

that is a $$win$$ for everyone.

 

(see what I did there? gotta speak their $language$)

 

The thing is, they "fixed" the issue by just making them tradeable. There's a reason why new stuff is either on the market, or traded. People eventually give up due to frustration and just buy plat/packs to buy the item from the market or someone.

[Xikto]

2 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

The thing is, they "fixed" the issue by just making them tradeable. There's a reason why new stuff is either on the market, or traded. People eventually give up due to frustration and just buy plat/packs to buy the item from the market or someone.

Today i finally managed to buy a kuva brakk duo to lack of sellers, took me 3 days of running cassini and every time i finished the mission i would send a message in trade chat (market had 0 sellers for toxin brakk)
I didwell over 150 runs of that mission and didn't get a brakk and at the end i finally found someone to sell it to me.
The issue with this "fix" is that the islands of grind becomes ghost towns after a bit and then good luck even finding someone to buy it from!

[Nebu4]

Hi, today I was trying to spawn a Sister of Parvos with the Tenet Spirex.

Although here's where the issue appeared. I've been non-stop running missions for straight 2 hours and 40 minutes trying to just spawn the sister with my desired weapon (which I still did not obtain yet).

This is insane, fighting the lich/sister on its own takes less time than grinding for the weapon you want if you're unlucky.

A way to potentially fix this is by allowing only one certain weapon to be obtained at an hour of a day (e.g. it's 1pm, the only weapon that can be obtained at that time is the Kuva Zarr / Tenet Tetra. After 30 minutes other weapons are available). 

Right now at the moment, there's only a 12.5% chance to get the Tenet weapon and ~5.26% chance to get the kuva weapon that a player favors.