Are melee combos too easy to execute?

[PhiThagRaid]

There has lately been a large increase in the discussion relating to melee being too "spam E" focused, in all those discussions I have not seen anyone bring up the most recent(been a while, but is still most recent) updates to the melee combos.

Some background for those who may be too new to remember the old combos or a refresher for those who might've forgot.

The melee combo system(not combo counter system) used to have sequences of varying directional and mouse inputs while meleeing that would perform a combo, a while back all of these combos were simplified to be executable by just holding one direction/mouse input constantly. Thus previous to execute combos the player had to pay attention to which part of a combo they are in and switch over to the next set of inputs to successfully perform a combo. Compared to the current combo system where the player can just spam E and just change which other button they are holding to change the combo being executed. 

So, ofcourse the melee system would currently feel like a spam E gameplay loop if that is what the combo system allows. There is no reason to pace your melee strikes and when not switching to other weapons there is no reason to stop spamming E.

I will admit that spamming basic attacks could still be an uninteresting, yet effective, strategy. 

My main point of this discussion is to see if others would agree that the simplified combo system is (at least part of) the problem, but if a revert were to be done, my suggestion would be to nerf quick melee to create a bigger gap between quick melee and combos and thus encourage the use of intricate combos, thus spicing up the way melee is played.(suggesting nerf to quick melee since I think the current power level for melee is good if it were more engaging and took more skill to execute)

[Acos]

I generally hate the concept that making something difficult to control is somehow offering a rewarding experience when you get used to doing it. Part of the reason "spam e" is so prevalent is because nobody wanted to be bothered trying to master a very finnicky and obtuse network of directional inputs and keyboard gymnastics. I greatly prefer the way melee functions as of right now. 

[Berzerkules]

I didn't like the old system. What we have now is easy and intuitive. 

Old system felt like a bad fighting game. Want to do a move? better go hit the wiki ands see what the moves for the stance I have equipped. Now get the timing down based on the weapon speed I currently have. Swap weapons, back to the wiki.... Ugh nty. If I wanted to play a fighting game I'd go play a fighting game. I want to slay hoards of Grineer please and thank you. 

With the old system I just default to spin to win. It was easier and did more damage. Now I can easily figure out base/forward attack, block/forward block attacks. Takes seconds to see if I enjoy the stance instead of wasting time practicing timing for each weapon with varying attack speeds. 

Edit: A lot of people act like you just hit e and win the game. When I play I'm all over the place using the range of mobility options available, priming with my guns, using abilities and operator, melee attacks are as much a key part of my mobility as they are damage. I know the game isn't that difficult once you have the gear but it's fun as hell to play still. I don't see much of a difference between shooting guns at that guy over there and using melee. You're still just spamming some combination of keys/mouse or controller buttons.

Melee is a huge part of the game for me. It adds a layer that other shooters don't have. I could play any of the thousands of other shooters out there but I don't, WF offers something I can't find anywhere else, a smooth intuitive melee in a stupid fn grindy shooter.

[Sovyul]

The way combos worked back then were just a chore to execute imo, i like the new combo executions

If they were to revert back the changes, people would just steer towards stances that don't require much mental input once again (there were several reasons why tempo royale was so loved, and the EZ combo good moveset was one of them)

[TARINunit9]

10 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Old system felt like a bad fighting game. Want to do a move? better go hit the wiki ands see what the moves for the stance I have equipped. Now get the timing down based on the weapon speed I currently have. Swap weapons, back to the wiki.... Ugh nty.

The move list WAS in the game, but you had to inspect the stance in the Mod upgrading bench. Can't be blamed for thinking it was datamined for the wiki

[Berzerkules]

Just now, TARINunit9 said:

The move list WAS in the game, but you had to inspect the stance in the Mod upgrading bench. Can't be blamed for thinking it was datamined for the wiki

I know. You couldn't see that info or test the moves while at the mod bench though. It was easier to have wiki page up on the other monitor while in mission or in the sim. 

[PhiThagRaid]

18 minutes ago, Acos said:

I generally hate the concept that making something difficult to control is somehow offering a rewarding experience when you get used to doing it. Part of the reason "spam e" is so prevalent is because nobody wanted to be bothered trying to master a very finnicky and obtuse network of directional inputs and keyboard gymnastics. I greatly prefer the way melee functions as of right now. 

I see, it might sadly be a bit engrained into Warframe that players want to be efficient and adding complexity does not add to efficiency in any manner.

I for one think that the problem is that the skill floor and the skill ceiling are basically the same currently and it's all just spamming E. I believe the higher the skill ceiling the better and that combat is there to be enjoyed and not just sped through with the least effort and that mastering something is innately satisfying

[Uhkretor]

39 minutes ago, PhiThagRaid said:

Are melee combos too easy to execute?

Yes

[PhiThagRaid]

21 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

I didn't like the old system. What we have now is easy and intuitive. 

Yeah, I understand wanting intuitive systems, but I would've liked there to still be complexity/depth. As the game has a longer lifespan than you would play a single player game, there is a lot of time for you to start mastering elements of it. If you reach the skill ceiling within a month, then for the rest of the time you are just slowly getting bored of that thing you have mastered.(I would atleast)

26 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

I want to slay hoards of Grineer please and thank you. 

This is one thing that bothers me, but is also deeply engrained, just wiping out hordes and hordes of enemies no problem. Mainly that many gamemodes are 100% focused on that, eg. ESO and Survival. Since obviously if you are encouraged to wipe out tons of enemies as fast as possible combat can become sweeping instead of engaging in combat. But this is a bit off track.

33 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

With the old system I just default to spin to win.

Yeah, that would also be something to avoid, since that's replacing E spam with Crouch E spam.

34 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Takes seconds to see if I enjoy the stance instead of wasting time practicing timing for each weapon with varying attack speeds. 

Understandable, not too sure how this could be kept as an upside of the transfer were to be done back. The best ideas I could come up with off the top of my head are: 1. Perhaps allow a toggle in the simulacrum to specifically easily test the combos. 2. Add in game animations to see how each combo will look.

39 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

A lot of people act like you just hit e and win the game. When I play I'm all over the place using the range of mobility options available, priming with my guns, using abilities and operator, melee attacks are as much a key part of my mobility as they are damage. I know the game isn't that difficult once you have the gear but it's fun as hell to play still. I don't see much of a difference between shooting guns at that guy over there and using melee. You're still just spamming some combination of keys/mouse or controller buttons.

Yeah, I've seen that, hope I didn't come across that way. Mainly working from the Devs own words in admitting that they/some of the community seem to think that is the case. 

Personally I have stuck with melee since I started playing, since I found hack&slash combat to be refreshing from pure gunplay. So primaries and secondaries are not something I use consistently. 

I definitely agree that melee is powerful for mobility, it was super weird to fight Nihil without a melee.

Yep, the game is still great, I would just like a higher skill level to strive towards.

Perhaps that's why gunplay can sometimes get boring,  holding down the fire button to fire 100 rounds into an enemy is the same amount of complexity as doing a 100 of the same melee attacks. Guns just usually fire faster and require less clicking to get in those hits.

53 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Melee is a huge part of the game for me. It adds a layer that other shooters don't have. I could play any of the thousands of other shooters out there but I don't, WF offers something I can't find anywhere else, a smooth intuitive melee in a stupid fn grindy shooter.

Agreed, Warframe does have great melee, but I felt that for the old system already, so the intuitiveness wasn't something I was looking for too much.

[Leyvonne]

39 minutes ago, PhiThagRaid said:

I for one think that the problem is that the skill floor and the skill ceiling are basically the same currently and it's all just spamming E. I believe the higher the skill ceiling the better and that combat is there to be enjoyed and not just sped through with the least effort and that mastering something is innately satisfying

Warframe isn't really a skill based game tho. Fancy, rewarding combos have a place in a game like Nioh or Sekiro, but in Warframe they'd just feel off and I think majority of players wouldn't bother with them at all.

[PhiThagRaid]

1 hour ago, Sovyul said:

(there were several reasons why tempo royale was so loved, and the EZ combo good moveset was one of them)

Shh, keep this on the down-low, won't ya? You're messing with my plans to get TR to be worth a loadsum so I could make a killing on the market.

[PhiThagRaid]

19 minutes ago, Leyvonne said:

Warframe isn't really a skill based game tho. Fancy, rewarding combos have a place in a game like Nioh or Sekiro, but in Warframe they'd just feel off and I think majority of players wouldn't bother with them at all.

Yeah, I should probably accept that fact, but I'm hardheaded, so probably won't. 

I do think that it could've been more skill based and all difficulty that DE adds seems to be laughed off by many members of the community as just adding bulletsponges or removing player gear. 

I think it is a bit of a two sided problem, though. Players want to farm things as quickly and efficiently as possible, thus players don't want to deal with complex combos or take down enemies methodically, instead just wanting to sweep the waves of enemies into oblivion with little to no effort. DE being a company that try to listen to the community picks up on these desires(perhaps not directly, but by seeing what is requested) adding their own interpretation on top of it.

Warframe revision of last year was great, but it sadly made all non-SP enemies a joke. Railjack revisit was based on test cluster feedback, but again enemies were dramatically weakened. 

Warframe has a lot of space to add skill based gameplay, but the community is split on the topic some wanting to be overpowered and others wanting a challenge. One of those is much easier to implement and focuses the audience that would most likely grow the popularity of the game.

[LegendaryNeurotoxin]

I kinda liked that there was a real combo system before, though I found them tough to execute at times, and sometimes would execute an unwanted combo in the process of trying to time, aim, and dodge attacks. 

These days, forward, hold right click, and mash E, takes care of most things. If they don't die outright, I can stop holding forward for a moment. Tempo Royale with Paracesis and right click is basically a popup spam loop.

I think gunblades are the only ones that require pattern use because you always wanna maximize the rapid fire stuff for combo, and with an impact -armor build those extra hits strip armor even faster. 

I would like to see stances that are more technical again, where someone who just wants to easy mode an easy combo stance can do so, but a more technical player can augment their fighting with timing and technical gameplay. This would also make it easier to justify reducing the power and effects of low-skill combos--maybe taking some of their combo features out and pushing them to be damage-only without combo procs. 

[Acos]

1 hour ago, PhiThagRaid said:

I see, it might sadly be a bit engrained into Warframe that players want to be efficient and adding complexity does not add to efficiency in any manner.

I for one think that the problem is that the skill floor and the skill ceiling are basically the same currently and it's all just spamming E. I believe the higher the skill ceiling the better and that combat is there to be enjoyed and not just sped through with the least effort and that mastering something is innately satisfying

To the point; I don't think making the controls more obtuse is the same as making the game more complex, or rather, more engaging. An example of such would be the game requiring me to do something different to achieve a goal other than simply pressing E; An enemy that has a shield that requires me to use a heavy attack to throw him off balance, or an enemy that requires me to parry his attack to make him vulnerable are examples of complexity. Requiring me to press > + ^ + A + B to use an attack is ultimately just making the "E" button more difficult to use, but doesn't fundamentally change the game or change how I approach combat. It's not complex, its' obtuse. 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

a someone who was around for the older melee combos, I'd probably be ok with it, but IMO there needs to be a decent payoff: spamming E should still offer a basic, fast and repeatable combo, but maybe have it do less damage and not have stun/CC effects. meanwhile other combos that include blocking, moving, or perhaps even a well timed jump could be added to make for more interesting effects. in addition, each weapon class would need something, they are good at, e.g. Hammers would be king of knockdown CC, while rapiers would offer high damage single target combos and countermoves, and dual Daggers/Swords could allow for instant counter moves which, if timed correctly, parry the enemy's own melee attack with one hand while striking with the other: something you'll see in a lot of martial arts.

some of these animations would be really cool, and could be made like Parazon Finishers so they can't be interrupted either. trust me, adding more stylish stuff -while requiring some elbow grease from the animators - would only encourage melee to be used more: even cooler if switching weapon as you get melee'd results in a unique counter as well!

[(PSN)Shelneroth]

I'm not sure how much effect the old combos compared to new combos have on melee's dominance. I supose the old complex inputs were the skill based equivalent of aiming for guns. Having a good aim is much more impactful than mastering combos. I've an awful aim, it's one of the reason I favor melee. Guns like the Kneel with it's headshot reliance are basically worthless for me. Conversly under the old combos I started of mashing e and mostly got by fine. There were only niche situations I felt a better grasp of the system would of helped. Eventually I learnt a couple of moves for a couple of weapon types. That felt more than sufficient. 

Overall I much prefer the current system. Even if it is a problem (and I'm doubtful) I think more good would be lost then gained by dropping it.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

I dont think "too easy" is a problem, you should want combos to easy to pull off imo. 

Problem with melee is choice

Like it would be nice to not be at a disadvantage when chosing to use your gun for a while, it would be cool to perform some smooth and quick multikill finishers in the mist of a fight, recieve a temporary boost to damage for doing something perfectly, etc

More combat choices for meta gameplay sort to speak.

[Kaotyke]

2 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

Want to do a move? better go hit the wiki ands see what the moves for the stance I have equipped.

Ok... just... going to correct this: you could have just ESC > Melee Combos while in mission...

[Berzerkules]

6 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

Ok... just... going to correct this: you could have just ESC > Melee Combos while in mission...

Were you able to do that with old melee? I thought that was a more recent addition?

Edit: I was totally wrong. Went and found real old screen shots. I always just used wiki because it was right there on other screen without having to bring up esc menu while in mission

[Kaotyke]

5 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Were you able to do that with old melee? I thought that was a more recent addition?

Yeah. As far as I remember it was always these since melee 2.0.

[Slayer-.]

I have my Melee Attack on one key and Melee Heavy Attack on another key, I like to do a quick slash at an enemy if my gun is out from there I can go straight into combo's that I use all the time because of the extra damage they give we don't have Quick Melee anymore DE removed it or renamed it, players who just spam melee are missing out badly on the combo system they have at their fingertips.

The old melee system was you had to get your timings just right or the combo would not work, I like the new system I find it easier to switch between different combos on the fly now.

I have Cleaving Whirlwind on my Scindo Prime, at the moment nothing can stop it's killing power, I can easily go from Broken Bull into Drifting Stampede and to get some distance fast I can go into Sundered Tusk all at the push or release of a button, no more PAUSE then press this key, DE changed it for a reason and I'm all for it.

 

[PublikDomain]

The new system is overall better. It's easy to pull off combos, but that's fine, that was the point of the change. While I liked some parts of the old system, I'd much rather think about my positioning and my target priorities and how I want to move than about getting the right timing on a combo. Having combos standardized so you can think "I want to hit that guy over there" and just switch to a block combo to close the gap is way better than "was it tap tap hold wait tap or tap hold tap wait tap?"

[Aldain]

Pause combos were fine in the old system IMO, or would have been were it not for how messed up attack speed can be at times, it was the move combos that were the problem...anyone remember Bullet Dance and having to hold BACK to get one combo to work?

I like the structure of what we have now, but the issue is that some of the stances just don't flow properly since some moves were based on the pause/hold actions we used to have.

Whenever they do go back to finally finish their melee 3.0 changes I'd say they should look into each stance and make them distinct and all flow properly with improved animations, with the prospect of lowering attack speed with the coming update it could be a good time to reevaluate the animations and which work well and which work poorly.

[Marvelous_A]

It should be easy to execute. QWOP style of melee input is sadly not my preference.

[KittySkin]

Yes, they are. Super easy to execute and I love that fact. Old combo system was a nightmare to use, specially those pause combos or the ones thst meeded directional inputs after 2 or 3 regular attacks.

That system can work on a game like DMC, where attacks are slow AND the only thing you are focusing on, agains a reduced number of enemies.

On warframe we are having to hit S#&$loads of enemies with super fast weapons and enemies gets decimated in seconds, compare that to DMC where and enemy can resist 10 hits in a row without dying, and you can see how meaningless combos with obtuse inputs yet super nice animations are.

There was a reazon for the old "best stance its quick attack" and people avoided equiping melees and instead used quick attacks or spin attacks, and that was ease of use.

What they failed HARD on the new combos its the implementation, its all over the place. All weapons should have 4 combos. Standing soft attack (just attack) that hits fast and hard, but lacks any kind of mobility and cc, walkimg soft attack that hits fast and with low damage, but have mobility and a bit of cc, strong standing attack (block + attack) that its slow, hits hard AND have strong cc and moving strong attack that have good damage, good mobility and a little bit of cc on the final hitnof the combo, like a slam or something along the lines.

This way all combos are eaay to use, all provide something and in the end, while easy to execute, its a system that allows you to actually learn and manage combos to get the best out of each one of them.