The Colossal Misunderstanding of "Press E to Win"

[Traumtulpe]

I assume everyone has seen Shy's "The video that got melee nerfed", or the devstream where it was mentioned. Ever helpful, she explains the problem of Warframe to it's devs: You can win the game by pressing E a couple hundred times. And DE lapped it right up: "Thank's, we'll get right to it Shy. Fixing Warframe turned out to be real easy, what a great day."

Now, I find it difficult to imagine someone as delightfully vitriolic as Shy to misunderstand the problem so utterly, and so obviously. Her comparison to Destiny even makes it clear; She just presses a button and dies. Guess what you can't do in a random exterminate with Inaros? That's right you cannot die. You cannot fail. It doesn't matter what you do, unless you go AFK forever you'll win the mission eventually - and she does skip most of the hilariously slow killing.

So, the actual problem has nothing at all to do with melee. I'll spell it out for you: Missions are (for the most part) braindead simple and impossible to fail. At least for someone with all the mods and Warframes available.

Unfortunately, making engaging missions that can be failed by seasoned players isn't something DE is going to jump at. They'd rather run and take cover, it would appear.

Instead DE's solution is "90% buff guns, 10% nerf melee". And this isn't even wrong, it's a good idea in fact - if done right. The first step they took, "let's nerf attack speed" is already headed in the exact wrong direction though.

Attacking fast is fun, stacking attack speed isn't what makes melee strong, and she doesn't even attack fast at all in her video (it is sped up, to hide the hilariously ineffective killing). There are precisely 3 things that make melee as good as it is: Free bleeds from heavy attacks or stances, >100% crit, and hitting multiple targets at the same time.

So, if you wanted to effectively reduce melees power, you slightly reduce follow through, slightly reduce the bonus of crit mods for heavy attacks, slightly nerf Blood Rush, and stop making bleeds the only way to effectively kill armored enemies - not by destroying bleeds, mind you (got you), but by introducing alternatives (you've got a lot of useless status effects there, would be a shame if someone made them effective against armored enemies). Notice the word "slightly".

Next guns: Not all guns are bad. Launchers are quite effective actually, they cover a larger area than melee. So are snipers, the tool of choice against bosses. This does include the Steel Path. Beam weapons can be very strong as well. If you just buff guns across the board, the same ones collecting dust now will continue seeing little use. Of note is, that even with limited status vulnerability on some priority targets (like Acolytes), a rapid fire status pistol will never be effective against them. As long as you limit status effects at all, you will limit the usage of certain weapons.

Broadly speaking, weapons having issues are single target, status focussed, and ammo inefficient. Some possible solutions include mods that cause bullets to hit multiple enemies (via explosions or ricochets), Hunter Munitions in reverse (status effects gain additional benefits that function on status immune enemies), and alternatives to Arcane Pistoleer.

Lastly, just pressing E isn't something anybody does (other than to mislead developers not playing their own game). Let me show you how melee is used (and note that "just E" is the only variant I do not use at all):

PS No, that doesn't prove melee is OP - you can do the same with a gun (it's just less fun in my opinion):

PPS Have a nice day.

[Zeddypanda]

In short, to make sure I understand correctly:

• Melees are stronger than guns, and this makes sense for what's supposed to be the riskier option.
• The former statement flies out the window when we can just be immortal.
• The problem is not melee, it's immortality.

Cool vids.

[Slayer-.]

I see you have Shooting Gallery on the 4th skill slot, that would work well with a ranged Saryn.

I'm surprised you're not using Toxic Lash but I guess that would take away from the videos you're showing off.

I give you points for the use of text colour, it breaks it up nicely to read. :P

 

[Reidenshi]

22 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Lastly, just pressing E isn't something anybody does (other than to mislead developers not playing their own game). Let me show you how melee is used (and note that "just E" is the only variant I do not use at all):

 

I honestly wonder how they got to dealing with melee before dealing with non-LoS AoE. At least melee doesn't make you see those damage numbers two walls away.

[trst]

Honestly I'm pretty sure the actual reason they're targeting attack speed is because it's not the problem.

It lets them say it was nerfed to try and appease the crowd that wants it nerfed while not really impacting the performance of melee. It's the classic DE method of taking a middle ground approach that is trying to appease two different groups while really leaving both unsatisfied. As at the end of the day melee will still be overpowered, especially relative to guns, while the anti nerf crowd will still only see them as nerfed and nothing more.

[DrivaMain]

I believe the attack speed nerf is to counter users using macros to abuse melee to ridiculous level. I have seen many users do that.

5 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Unfortunately, making engaging missions that can be failed by seasoned players isn't something DE is going to jump at. They'd rather run and take cover, it would appear.

The game's largest part of the player base are full of casual challenge phobia players. They will "REEE" everytime something challenging gets added or if it can't be cheesed. They'll use excuses like "Fake Difficulty" or "unfair".

DE will never let go of their biggest source of revenue. This game's balance will never be "balanced enough" unless DE willing to bite the bullet and let go of their main audience.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

 DIgital Extremes really needs to stop tinkering with things, actually finish what they start and accept what is and embrace the over the top mobile game power fantasy. Going back to fix what can’t be fixed because it’s broke at a fundamental level isn’t going to do anything accept waste dev time.

 The “melee nerf” won’t make a bit of difference what-so-ever. In the end It will still be the same mash “E” to win and stances will still clip through and miss everything like a knife threw a wet paper bag. This games melee has never had feeling at all and isn’t the least bit satisfying imo. 

[0_The_F00l]

Even though I agree with the core argument , 

The example you have used in the videos are not quite right , due to the combination of weapon and frame along with the helminth ability you have chosen.

You are not showing the effectiveness of melee vs guns , 

You are showing the effectiveness of an Armor reducing , cc capable dps frame with a sniper.

But it's defintely an acceptable reference point ,

as long as we can significantly reduce enemy defenses (or can rapidly spread viral or corrosive procs ) in a group and get consistent headshots they are good enough in a camping environement.

 

[Traumtulpe]

6 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You are showing the effectiveness of an Armor reducing , cc capable dps frame with a sniper.

You don't have to use Dragon Keys if you don't want to use damage buffing abilities. I am too lazy to cast them otherwise (as it makes no difference), so the keys make the game more fun for me.

[Aldain]

Another one of these eh?

At least this time it isn't using the Kuva Tonkor as a measure of "Guns are fine".

[ReddyDisco]

with the amount of attack speed you can get you need a macro to properly use it all since your feeble meat appendages can't keep up, this speed 'nerf' won't be noticeable.

it does appear DE chose the option of least backlash, all i care to see is what the new 10 ranged mods they cookin up

[Yamazuki]

21 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Even though I agree with the core argument , 

The example you have used in the videos are not quite right , due to the combination of weapon and frame along with the helminth ability you have chosen.

You are not showing the effectiveness of melee vs guns , 

You are showing the effectiveness of an Armor reducing , cc capable dps frame with a sniper.

But it's defintely an acceptable reference point ,

as long as we can significantly reduce enemy defenses (or can rapidly spread viral or corrosive procs ) in a group and get consistent headshots they are good enough in a camping environement.

 

Removing armor hardly matters for any decent gun, even in SP. I don't even use burst weapons in SP, and I don't need to remove armor. I only remove armor on specific targets, and that's mainly for efficiency, as not even E spam would outright kill them. The biggest issue with some weapons isn't their damage, but frequent reloads. I can kill enemies, even armored, rather quickly with some high fire rate low damage weapons, but some weapons end up with frequent reloads, and increasing the damage doesn't fix the frequent reloading issue.

There are clearly guns that function in SP, the issue is, a lot of them don't, and just more damage while ignoring everything else doesn't fix this.

We were also given armor removal applied to any Warframe through Helminth.

[Godmode_Ash]

1 hour ago, DrivaMain said:

I believe the attack speed nerf is to counter users using macros to abuse melee to ridiculous level. I have seen many users do that.

 

You don't really need macro to spam LA. I bound my melee to mouse wheel and it's significantly faster than pressing a key.

[TARINunit9]

Honestly I don't blame DE for immediately jumping to Attack Speed. The last two times they reworked lazy melee play -- the first time was the removal of Coptering, the second time was Atterax/Tellos Boltace with Maiming Body Rush Overload -- Attack Speed was a pretty big factor. It wasn't the biggest factor (which is why it wasn't changed those two times) but it was undeniably a factoe

[Slayer-.]

4 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

 

You don't really need macro to spam LA. I bound my melee to mouse wheel and it's significantly faster than pressing a key.

I do that as well, I have normal button for melee and the mouse wheel also, because seriously doing endurance runs is not good for my main melee finger so I switch it up to give that finger a rest while using the wheel.

Though it sucks if I'm using the wheel and get too close to an air support, it's also my use button and stealth take down button, if I press the middle mouse a bit hard while scrolling it I activate the air support, so while near them I go back to the button just for melee. 

------------------------------------------------

Why am I seeing a trend where players who use macros for nefarious reasons gets the rest of us penalized, all the maro users are going to go and do is adjust their timings between key actions so all it will achieve is to piss the rest of us off who don't use macros. 

[(PSN)Yggranya]

2 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

They will "REEE" everytime something challenging gets added or if it can't be cheesed. They'll use excuses like "Fake Difficulty" or "unfair".

DE will never let go of their biggest source of revenue. This game's balance will never be "balanced enough" unless DE willing to bite their bullet and let go of their main audience.

Ah, indeed, it's the casual ruining your game again, eh? Just like clockwork.

 

Funny, considering the easiest and fastest way to rewards is through cheesing, the best mate of wannabe "hardcore" players in any game. Cue raids and anything even remotely like it. DE will not rework the game to make it balanced, that much is certain. There will never be anything challenging in warframe, that's a fact. At most it will be the same old "more health and damage = difficulty" BS.

[(PSN)Shelneroth]

Why do people keep saying DE are just focused on nerfing attack? They mentioned it as one of sevral things they are looking at. They went off on a tangent about attack speed but nothing implied it was their sole focus. They also aren't basing everything on Shy's video either. It's just the most stark example of the problem.

[Aadi880]

Its worth mentioning that "attack speed" is not the only thing that affects melee's bonkers level of damage.

Its also the cc they provide.

Currently, every hit you do staggers the enemy. Meaning, there is no risk factor at all if the enemy is unable to even do anything when you smack 'em.

DE specifically mentioned removing the staggers. So, I think there will be a bit more risk involved.

But regardless, I think what could to be done, is when you are in 2 to 3 meters from an enemy, then the enemy will start dealing percentage damage. This would I think fix some problems regarrding immortality.

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

5 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

I assume everyone has seen Shy's "The video that got melee nerfed", or the devstream where it was mentioned. Ever helpful, she explains the problem of Warframe to it's devs: You can win the game by pressing E a couple hundred times. And DE lapped it right up: "Thank's, we'll get right to it Shy. Fixing Warframe turned out to be real easy, what a great day."

Shy is friends with DE, specifically at least with Rebecca so no surprise they lap up what she makes.

[Berzerkules]

5 minutes ago, Aadi880 said:

Its worth mentioning that "attack speed" is not the only thing that affects melee's bonkers level of damage.

Its also the cc they provide.

Currently, every hit you do staggers the enemy. Meaning, there is no risk factor at all if the enemy is unable to even do anything when you smack 'em.

DE specifically mentioned removing the staggers. So, I think there will be a bit more risk involved.

But regardless, I think what could to be done, is when you are in 2 to 3 meters from an enemy, then the enemy will start dealing percentage damage. This would I think fix some problems regarrding immortality.

The reasons DE gave to nerf melee make no sense. 

If they actually slow melee attack speed down to a point that is significantly effects overall dps it will feel sluggish and boring to play. Sounds fun. 

We have so many cc options and DE is worried about the cc provided by forced impact procs from stances. Who needs staggers from melee when we can just toss resonator on any frame and turn off enemy ai. 

Whatever, maybe we'll get guns buffed and be just like the hundreds of other random shooter games out there, just with more grind, no endgame or pvp. 

 

[0_The_F00l]

3 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

Removing armor hardly matters for any decent gun, even in SP. I don't even use burst weapons in SP, and I don't need to remove armor. I only remove armor on specific targets, and that's mainly for efficiency, as not even E spam would outright kill them. The biggest issue with some weapons isn't their damage, but frequent reloads. I can kill enemies, even armored, rather quickly with some high fire rate low damage weapons, but some weapons end up with frequent reloads, and increasing the damage doesn't fix the frequent reloading issue.

There are clearly guns that function in SP, the issue is, a lot of them don't, and just more damage while ignoring everything else doesn't fix this.

We were also given armor removal applied to any Warframe through Helminth.

It depends on your definition of "decent gun" do you mean one which has access to consistent Slash procs ? Then yeah , for them Armor removal is not a top priority.

But I get your point. Yeah, some weapons have poor qol , poor enough that it offsets the potential damage they can do. 

Good thing we have reload speed mods , but are you willing to give up even more potential damage for it ? Some weapons kinda need 2 qol mods to be viable , those are usually the ones that get shafted and also are the ones that are most fun for me if I get just the right riven for it covering that qol.

But again , my point is that the videos are not a good representation , as they are depending on special abilities that reduces the gap between the weapons.

[Aadi880]

12 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

The reasons DE gave to nerf melee make no sense. 

If they actually slow melee attack speed down to a point that is significantly effects overall dps it will feel sluggish and boring to play. Sounds fun. 

We have so many cc options and DE is worried about the cc provided by forced impact procs from stances. Who needs staggers from melee when we can just toss resonator on any frame and turn off enemy ai. 

Whatever, maybe we'll get guns buffed and be just like the hundreds of other random shooter games out there, just with more grind, no endgame or pvp. 

 

Doesn't mean there shouldn't be any change at all now does it?

Someone's gotta start somewhere. You and I both know very well that changing anything against player interests (by that, I mean nerfs), even when it is absolutely needed, will be met with backlash no matter what.

[NekroArts]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Shelneroth said:

Why do people keep saying DE are just focused on nerfing attack? They mentioned it as one of sevral things they are looking at. They went off on a tangent about attack speed but nothing implied it was their sole focus. They also aren't basing everything on Shy's video either. It's just the most stark example of the problem.

My best guess is that they'll also look at stances. Some stances are able land more hits per melee-input than others. Dual swords without stances are just terrible, but after adding Swirling Tiger the number of hits shoots up. Heavy blades with the same attack speed won't be able to produce the same results no matter what stance you give them; all of their stances have few swings that can only go up to 2 hits.

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

2 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

DE is worried about the cc provided by forced impact procs from stances.

It's not forced impact procs, every melee swing has an innate stagger which effectively stunlocks everything inside your melee range, being a contributing (but not determining) factor to the overall ease of use and absence of risk. If anything, it will make squishy frames even squishier in melee, but maybe that will highlight how stupid it is having frames and abilities that remove that whole "dying" deal from the game. 

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

Putting a cap to attack speed is just the beginning of the incoming nerfs. It's just to guage how much lower the damage output is compare to how it is now. It's not like Titania's Dex Diwata is OP and needs to be nerf so catchmoon can clear Steel Path mobs just as quickly.