The Colossal Misunderstanding of "Press E to Win"

[Berzerkules]

11 minutes ago, Aadi880 said:

Doesn't mean there shouldn't be any change at all now does it?

Someone's gotta start somewhere. You and I both know very well that changing anything against player interests (by that, I mean nerfs), even when it is absolutely needed, will be met with backlash no matter what.

I'll be the first to say that melee is stupid strong fn right now. Attack speed does play a role in melee damage output but, De gutted enemy survivability when they changed the armor scaling and we have mods like weeping wounds, blood rush and condition overload. Limiting attack speed won't even begin to make melee not OP it will just make it annoying to play. 

OP posted a video of 5 min SP void survival with all 4 keys. I've done max lvl SP Mot survival with -75% damage from an extinguished dragon key and the ttk isn't that much different at lvl 150 and 9k+. DE made enemies easier to kill and now melee is a problem because we can walk through enemies. 

 

[Happynuke]

Nerfing speed seems strange, since speed is one of the most obvious feedbacks players feel.
Range, cc, damage, condition-stacking... those are all important, but they are mostly things that affect the enemies, while weapon speed is something that the players feel.
Who wants to run around with a cumbersome weapon? It doesn`t feel good! Except maybe, if a slow hit can deal a LOT more damage. 

Maybe that is the point? Nerfing speed won`t kill melee, because melee gets weak, but because players don`t want to use it as much? 
But not wanting to use your own weapons is not a good thing.

Targeting speed for nerfs is not a good idea, in my opinion, though I will wait how it actually pans out, before complaining. 
 

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

Slash damage is a balance problem. This problem is even worse with viral, and even more with melee.

Imho they should first deal with slash (and viral) and then look at melee vs guns.

Capping melee speed, why not, removing "stagger" why not, but also make "lifted" status worthy (ankyros prime native stance is trash).

[Voltage]

I disagree that nerfing attack speed is a bad move. Like it or not, Berserker shouldn't be multiplicative to other attack speed multipliers. It's been overlooked for a very long time and I really hope it is addressed. My only concern is how far DE goes with nerfing Attack speed. Standardizing Berserker with other attack speed mods is all I want to see. Nothing else.

[o0Despair0o]

So basically, thing's turned to crap because of some overrated youtuber's feedback.

 

Who would have guessed.

And people wonder why I hate WF youtubers with a passion...

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

il y a 36 minutes, Voltage a dit :

I disagree that nerfing attack speed is a bad move. Like it or not, Berserker shouldn't be multiplicative to other attack speed multipliers. It's been overlooked for a very long time and I really hope it is addressed. My only concern is how far DE goes with nerfing Attack speed. Standardizing Berserker with other attack speed mods is all I want to see. Nothing else.

Also crit chance are usually really high when you use berzerk, so the trigger condition is barely a limit, it's just "too good" for its drain cost.

Either make it a 12 drain mod, or nerf the attack speed it provides (more than 40%, but less than 60%)

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

5 hours ago, Berzerkules said:. 

If they actually slow melee attack speed down to a point that is significantly effects overall dps it will feel sluggish and boring to play. Sounds fun. 

I’m just inferring here but I don’t think that’s their plan. When they talked about attack speed all Scott talked about was stacking multiple attack speed mods. Which still doesn’t make a lot of sense considering 95% of weapons only need one attack speed mod.

So if their “nerf” to attack speed is just no more double stat stacking, that would still be dumb, but at least it won’t make melee unfun.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

4 hours ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

Putting a cap to attack speed is just the beginning of the incoming nerfs. It's just to guage how much lower the damage output is compare to how it is now. 

Jumping to conclusions with absolutely zero evidence is not constructive and only serves to spread irrational fear.

[(PSN)SergioMApt]

11 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

I assume everyone has seen Shy's "The video that got melee nerfed", or the devstream where it was mentioned. Ever helpful, she explains the problem of Warframe to it's devs: You can win the game by pressing E a couple hundred times. And DE lapped it right up: "Thank's, we'll get right to it Shy. Fixing Warframe turned out to be real easy, what a great day."

Now, I find it difficult to imagine someone as delightfully vitriolic as Shy to misunderstand the problem so utterly, and so obviously. Her comparison to Destiny even makes it clear; She just presses a button and dies. Guess what you can't do in a random exterminate with Inaros? That's right you cannot die. You cannot fail. It doesn't matter what you do, unless you go AFK forever you'll win the mission eventually - and she does skip most of the hilariously slow killing.

So, the actual problem has nothing at all to do with melee. I'll spell it out for you: Missions are (for the most part) braindead simple and impossible to fail. At least for someone with all the mods and Warframes available.

Unfortunately, making engaging missions that can be failed by seasoned players isn't something DE is going to jump at. They'd rather run and take cover, it would appear.

Instead DE's solution is "90% buff guns, 10% nerf melee". And this isn't even wrong, it's a good idea in fact - if done right. The first step they took, "let's nerf attack speed" is already headed in the exact wrong direction though.

Attacking fast is fun, stacking attack speed isn't what makes melee strong, and she doesn't even attack fast at all in her video (it is sped up, to hide the hilariously ineffective killing). There are precisely 3 things that make melee as good as it is: Free bleeds from heavy attacks or stances, >100% crit, and hitting multiple targets at the same time.

So, if you wanted to effectively reduce melees power, you slightly reduce follow through, slightly reduce the bonus of crit mods for heavy attacks, slightly nerf Blood Rush, and stop making bleeds the only way to effectively kill armored enemies - not by destroying bleeds, mind you (got you), but by introducing alternatives (you've got a lot of useless status effects there, would be a shame if someone made them effective against armored enemies). Notice the word "slightly".

Next guns: Not all guns are bad. Launchers are quite effective actually, they cover a larger area than melee. So are snipers, the tool of choice against bosses. This does include the Steel Path. Beam weapons can be very strong as well. If you just buff guns across the board, the same ones collecting dust now will continue seeing little use. Of note is, that even with limited status vulnerability on some priority targets (like Acolytes), a rapid fire status pistol will never be effective against them. As long as you limit status effects at all, you will limit the usage of certain weapons.

Broadly speaking, weapons having issues are single target, status focussed, and ammo inefficient. Some possible solutions include mods that cause bullets to hit multiple enemies (via explosions or ricochets), Hunter Munitions in reverse (status effects gain additional benefits that function on status immune enemies), and alternatives to Arcane Pistoleer.

Lastly, just pressing E isn't something anybody does (other than to mislead developers not playing their own game). Let me show you how melee is used (and note that "just E" is the only variant I do not use at all):

PS No, that doesn't prove melee is OP - you can do the same with a gun (it's just less fun in my opinion):

PPS Have a nice day.

OMG!!
You are going to get Saryn, Vectis, Nikana, Helminth abilities NERFED to the ground.
I will blame you for it until the rest of my life (jk).

Awesome videos :)

I do hope they don't screw with brainless gaming that much... in my opinion the ability to shut down my brain while I play this game is what I like about this game. I've doint it brainless for 3k hours, 5years of playing, and I still love it!
:)
Anyways I've been through a lot of game changes and in fact there will always be a way to butcher enemies quick and easily.
I was so tired of mashing "circle" that I decided in the past few days to go brainless aimbot Mesa... I feel relaxed and happy for the moment.

I don't expect endgame for Warframe, that it is not the core game nor what makes Warframe so successful (again imho).
I just want to progress in the game universe, kill the lotus and stuff like that.

Loved the OP!

Stay healthy and safe.

 

[Krankbert]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb o0Despair0o:

So basically, thing's turned to crap because of some overrated youtuber's feedback.

 

Who would have guessed.

And people wonder why I hate WF youtubers with a passion...

Nice to see that not even the devs are exempt from the Youtuber gambit.

[SneakyErvin]

One problem doesnt make another less of an issue.

The reason why they dont start with nerfing health on frames like Inaros and Grendel or focus on LoS changes for AoE skills for instance is because melee is effective on the whole roster and all the weapons within the category are effectively outliers compared to guns. atm, including the poopiest of the pooey melee really.

And I think people who worry about the AS nerf missed the actual context. This was in relation to all the mod options we have access to for melee that alters AS aswell as stacks and in some cases use multiplicative math in the formula (zerker). This is probably the area where they'll target AS so it gets a diminishing return in some way the more you mod. The quickest solution would be to turn zerker into an additive mod instead of having it as a multiplier ontop of modified AS. Leaving it at 75% like now, which is 20% higher than Primed Fury, but with the drawback that it doesnt modify finisher speed, which is a fair trade for the much lower capacity cost and higher AS bonus.

[Tiltskillet]

37 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The quickest solution would be to turn zerker into an additive mod instead of having it as a multiplier ontop of modified AS. Leaving it at 75% like now, which is 20% higher than Primed Fury, but with the drawback that it doesnt modify finisher speed . . .

If its bonus functions the same as other AS% mods, I suspect it will speed up  finisher animations to the cap  just as those mods do.

 

[killerJoke66]

the whole situation with the melee attack speed is funny because for example with the nami & skyla prime you have so much as overload that if you try to melee even without bersekers your fingers might get numb unless you use macros or other easy key binds insread of mashing e ... anyways i used to find that funny how you couldnt use/utilize as steroids too much in warframe

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Tiltskillet said:

If its bonus functions the same as other AS% mods, I suspect it will speed up  finisher animations to the cap  just as those mods do.

 

They'd need to tweak it then since it would be better than it is now in most builds because many people run only zerker. A 9 cost mod that gives 75% AS increase and caps finisher speed would just be too good when the prime costs 14 and gives only 55% speed.

[Tiltskillet]

10 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

The biggest issue with some weapons isn't their damage, but frequent reloads. I can kill enemies, even armored, rather quickly with some high fire rate low damage weapons, but some weapons end up with frequent reloads, and increasing the damage doesn't fix the frequent reloading issue.

Increasing the damage  makes adding reload/mag/efficiency mods/arcanes/abilities more viable though.

[killerJoke66]

but then theres the issue with , if they nerf berserkers some melees' base attack speed is so low that only current berserkers save it 

[Voltage]

4 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

but then theres the issue with , if they nerf berserkers some melees' base attack speed is so low that only current berserkers save it 

Not every item in the game has to be good. It's like the sacrifice we made with Chroma for self damage to be removed. It's an acceptable loss. I think it's way healthier to fix the game's math and allow better gear progression than try to make "everything viable" that caters to this braindead mission play.

[Tiltskillet]

14 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

They'd need to tweak it then since it would be better than it is now in most builds because many people run only zerker. A 9 cost mod that gives 75% AS increase and caps finisher speed would just be too good when the prime costs 14 and gives only 55% speed.

I agree it could get tweaked further, though not because  finisher speed seems all that pertinent.

Edit: "could" rather than "should" because I can see an argument for small buffs to Fury/PFury instead.

[Aldain]

I'm actually having trouble thinking of any weapons aside from the Arca Triton that are so slow that they are unsalvageable by anything but Berserker.

How many weapons are in that 0.733 attack speed bucket? 0.8 is the next slowest but I can get reasonable mileage out of Quickening on the few that have that speed personally.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

So even with a riven and a second frame buff, a sniper is barely keeping up with melee got it.

Always nice to show builds for transparency. That way we all have the same base to reference instead of having to try and guess what you’re using.

[Zimzala]

Assume nothing, I don't watch that crap on YT, never will.

I am frankly sick of this idea that 'everyone' puts do much 'faith' into what a few players with YT channels have to say.

IMO, the only reason DE even mentioned it was to 'show they listen' when, IMO, they probably already had the plans, etc.

What some random talking head means nothing to me and IMO, it's the players that are doing this, assuming that since Devs mentioned a YT head they are somehow going to do 'exactly' what YT head said to do, etc.

So many players here just want to set their hair on fire and claim the world is burning when it's just them, it's astounding.

I know this breathless Hypes and Endless Armchair Designing and Critiquing never ends, but for this game, it's just OTT right now, IMO.

Humans just love to make up conspiracy theories though, it's what we do, I know not to expect anything more or less, sometimes as others have stated, it just gets old and tired.

[Tiltskillet]

27 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I'm actually having trouble thinking of any weapons aside from the Arca Triton that are so slow that they are unsalvageable by anything but Berserker.

How many weapons are in that 0.733 attack speed bucket? 0.8 is the next slowest but I can get reasonable mileage out of Quickening on the few that have that speed personally.

It's not so much the attack speed number IMO but the weapon type and the stance that can make weapons feel slow without loads of attack speed.  Prime example for me is Crushing Ruin Jat Kittag.  1.0 AS, but I feel like I'm moving through molasses without at least two speed bonuses.  There are much better examples too,  but not on stances I use enough to remember.

OTOH, I think some of this will just be a matter of getting accustomed to a slightly new system.    I just hope they cut fewer of the CC effects out of weapon stances that don't offer tons of dps.  With less attack speed, these will be even fringe-ier.  (Without other changes.)

[Ziltrex]

Not every change pleases everyone but we will see what will happen. I personally think buff to specific weapon groups needed also some melee needs slight nerfs and buffs aswell if they want to achieve the playing diversity but it is only stays 1 or max 2 year until new meta grown. The problem with warframe is the fundaments which let you kill hordes of enemies after a level with no ease or any strategy. The game is horde shooter and they won't overly nerf the melee because their main audience wants powerfantasy. Basically all the things what they packed up to the pile as update is made the current cirmcumstances because they moved on from a harder more tactical game to a less tactical number fest. The current playerbase who prefers this style which is consists multiple subgroups aswell are in the majority and they only will spend money on the game if the devs cater them. No matter what developer you are you cannot cater a wide diversified playerbase unless you make strict rules or sandbox game. 

Now they will change on the speed but that would means later they need to touch the system again because the problem is more or less the unfinished damage 3.0 which could fix the different procs, elemental and physical damage types so easier to balance the gears around them. DE is only good to bandaid the symptoms but they does not want to go deeper because that could mean their roadmap must be recalculated and revisit. Time and money investment with uncertain success if they fail also they must deliver new content. They could hire plus 50-100 person to focus on the bugfix, rebalances or just make candy contents so they could work on the more meaningful contents.

I am all for changes if the changes are reasonable and could positively effect the game but currently I do see the melee in a better place because each weapon in it can be useful so the choice of use is there. 

If I can use my braton more efficient than before then I would be happier. There is a list of weapon families what needs mostly the changes. It is not about how strong or efficient on killing at the starchart it is about making more choices later they could add more difficulity.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

47 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Assume nothing, I don't watch that crap on YT, never will.

I am frankly sick of this idea that 'everyone' puts do much 'faith' into what a few players with YT channels have to say.

IMO, the only reason DE even mentioned it was to 'show they listen' when, IMO, they probably already had the plans, etc.

What some random talking head means nothing to me and IMO, it's the players that are doing this, assuming that since Devs mentioned a YT head they are somehow going to do 'exactly' what YT head said to do, etc.

So many players here just want to set their hair on fire and claim the world is burning when it's just them, it's astounding.

I know this breathless Hypes and Endless Armchair Designing and Critiquing never ends, but for this game, it's just OTT right now, IMO.

Humans just love to make up conspiracy theories though, it's what we do, I know not to expect anything more or less, sometimes as others have stated, it just gets old and tired.

I agree. Anyone with a modicum of common sense knows riven stat locking isn't coming anytime soon, yet DE had to play dumb because they were forced to appease the masses' silly suggestions and say "We're....not discussing this now, maybe after all our other plans in the works, since you guys also asked for x y and z". 

[Vortex]

Melee should be nerfed asap.