The Colossal Misunderstanding of "Press E to Win"

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

On 2021-03-04 at 1:04 AM, Aadi880 said:

Currently, every hit you do staggers the enemy.

Yeah and there was a whole dev workshops about it. Steve even hyped it up during the melee rework dev stream. Now they will take it away 2 years later? DE is always back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. 

[Krankbert]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)YoungGunn82:

Yeah and there was a whole dev workshops about it. Steve even hyped it up during the melee rework dev stream. Now they will take it away 2 years later? DE is always back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. 

Revising ideas that don’t work out instead of blindly sticking to them is normal. If you don’t want that how about you start playing a game that is abandoned and no longer worked on.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, Krankbert said:

Revising ideas that don’t work out instead of blindly sticking to them is normal. If you don’t want that how about you start playing a game that is abandoned and no longer worked on.

You don’t get it or you haven’t been here vary long, because you have no idea what I’m talking about. DE has a long history of implementing, then taking that away then implement it again. It’s a waist of Dev time. And It happens way to often.
 DE has spent many many many hours days week months implementing the current melee. Now ultimately the whole melee rework was a waste of time. And this is coming from someone who doesn’t care for melee in this game but the problem is reworking things take away for others things. Especially if the rework outcome will ultimately change nothing. SMH 

[Traumtulpe]

Can we stop the silly "melee staggers enemies, that's OP" horsecrap? Nobody cares. Nobody who knows how the game works anyway. The best CC is death. and melee makes enemies dead real fast. That's why we use it. That's why it's good. Not because you can beat up a heavy gunner for 5 minutes without her fighting back...

[SneakyErvin]

On 2021-03-05 at 3:25 PM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

There are already rules, but for some people there aren't "enough". One person's rule is another person's restriction. Luckily DE hasn't listened to some of these people. We'll see how the update goes. 

Rules yes, but not enough or the correct ones to actually fullfil the role that rules should have, which is to balance things.

On 2021-03-05 at 4:32 PM, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

I am so sick of these Warframe Youtubers constantly putting themselves on a pedestal and thinking that they're the voice of the community. I don't give a damn about guns. Yet now Melee is going to be gutted because of a loud and obnoxious minority. I wish they'd stop squeeling at the developers because the game isn't how THEY want it to be and end up ruining it for the majority of us!

Oh bullcrap! This isnt some WCC fueled change, this is something several of us have talked about for a long long time before these WCCs highlighted it. There is a higher probability they've browsed reddit and WF forums and seen peoples concerns regarding melee and then based their videos on that. It is so freakin' silly to think it originated with the WCC since the videos didnt pop up until after this was a hot topic on the different WF forums.

And how flarkin' poorly do you build your melee if you think this slight change will gut melee? It is so over the top atm that it could be gutted severely and still effectively kill. You know something is wrong when you can bring low MR crap melee into Steel Path and still wipe the floor with everything. Melee has been a problem since scaling mods were introduced, and melee 3.0 aswell as the enemy scaling changes just further added to the problem, making the gap between melee and ranged wider.

[Zimzala]

On 2021-03-06 at 12:26 AM, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

Yeah and there was a whole dev workshops about it. Steve even hyped it up during the melee rework dev stream. Now they will take it away 2 years later? DE is always back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. 

Then I suggest not playing GaaS games, TBH.

[Jarriaga]

6 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Can we stop the silly "melee staggers enemies, that's OP" horsecrap? Nobody cares. Nobody who knows how the game works anyway. The best CC is death. and melee makes enemies dead real fast. That's why we use it. That's why it's good. Not because you can beat up a heavy gunner for 5 minutes without her fighting back...

That's a very toxic mentality. Its logical conclusion leads the game towards brain-dead spamming with zero engagement, challenge, or catharsis. It does not lead towards a better game or a better experience. 

[Tiltskillet]

6 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Can we stop the silly "melee staggers enemies, that's OP" horsecrap? Nobody cares. Nobody who knows how the game works anyway.

Welp, in harder content, I care.   Two things there really stick out to me switching from ranged to melee on a non-invisible frame and neither one of them is the sheer amount of damage.  (Which is there, but I don't feel that difference so much.)   The first is ease of damage application.  The second is how safe it feels.  Both differences are more extreme with,  but not exclusive to, melee versus non-AoE ranged weapons.

 

Quote

The best CC is death. and melee makes enemies dead real fast. That's why we use it. That's why it's good. Not because you can beat up a heavy gunner for 5 minutes without her fighting back...

Absolutely, the best CC is killing things.  But when we're not killing everything in one hit, actual CC comes into play.  Of course, there's more to melee safety than CC, but that's an important component.

I'm glad DE is looking at this, though I'm also a little worried that if they take things too far, it's going to be a hard adjustment.    For instance, right now in the harder SP missions, I really don't have much room for error playing Banshee.   And when I'm not using melee primarily, it's my bail-out.   I'm already thinking I may have to resort to shield gate abuse, something I've mostly resisted to this point.  And if not that, than maybe just a lot more running away.  😄

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

And how flarkin' poorly do you build your melee if you think this slight change will gut melee? It is so over the top atm that it could be gutted severely and still effectively kill. You know something is wrong when you can bring low MR crap melee into Steel Path and still wipe the floor with everything. Melee has been a problem since scaling mods were introduced, and melee 3.0 aswell as the enemy scaling changes just further added to the problem, making the gap between melee and ranged wider.

Clearly you don't know DE very well. Their approach to "balancing" the game is the equivalent of using a Ghoul Saw to perform brain surgery. So unless they abandon their foolish plans of catering to a bunch of whiners who wanted balance in a PvE game (AKA: morons) I can predict with 100% accuracy that melee is going to die horribly.

Also, I build well enough to reach level cap in Steel Path Endurance. I've tried all of the different melee types and stances in the game. Come back to me after trying to complete a Steel Path Survival with impact weapons that have no forced slash procs (Bo Prime, Pulmonars, etc) or any heavy weapons without attack speed mods. I can assure you all melee weapons will be just as effective after DE is done with them.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Rules yes, but not enough or the correct ones to actually fullfil the role that rules should have, which is to balance things.

Oh bullcrap! This isnt some WCC fueled change, this is something several of us have talked about for a long long time before these WCCs highlighted it. There is a higher probability they've browsed reddit and WF forums and seen peoples concerns regarding melee and then based their videos on that. It is so freakin' silly to think it originated with the WCC since the videos didnt pop up until after this was a hot topic on the different WF forums.

And how flarkin' poorly do you build your melee if you think this slight change will gut melee? It is so over the top atm that it could be gutted severely and still effectively kill. You know something is wrong when you can bring low MR crap melee into Steel Path and still wipe the floor with everything. Melee has been a problem since scaling mods were introduced, and melee 3.0 aswell as the enemy scaling changes just further added to the problem, making the gap between melee and ranged wider.

There's no such thing as balance on any game. If you point me in the direction of the most "fun" and balanced game you can think of, I probably wouldn't play it if you paid me. 

There's a reason why a Mages spells graduate from Fire 1 to Fireaga 4. Games progress and things derive from the original version. I totally agree with small, focused, targeted tweaks, but some game wide sweeping change is a bad idea in my opinion. We don't have their data, but I'm pretty sure there's a good balance of people that like the power Fantasy that support the game, as well as people that want said sweeping changes that also support the game. So this puts DE in a position of basically deciding to lose potentially a large portion of their playerbase (money) on a gamble to drastically change their game and everything people are used to. 

DE wouldn't have released the Helminth if they cared about making another boring balanced game. They need to buff guns (giving customers what they asked for) and add more power in the game because some people clearly want it and are having fun using their imaginations with all the different playstyles.

[killerJoke66]

39 minutes ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Clearly you don't know DE very well. Their approach to "balancing" the game is the equivalent of using a Ghoul Saw to perform brain surgery. So unless they abandon their foolish plans of catering to a bunch of whiners who wanted balance in a PvE game (AKA: morons) I can predict with 100% accuracy that melee is going to die horribly.

Also, I build well enough to reach level cap in Steel Path Endurance. I've tried all of the different melee types and stances in the game. Come back to me after trying to complete a Steel Path Survival with impact weapons that have no forced slash procs (Bo Prime, Pulmonars, etc) or any heavy weapons without attack speed mods. I can assure you all melee weapons will be just as effective after DE is done with them.

i agree with all your points but i have one concern , crapping on useless mobs is fine until someone gets bored of it , sometimes players just want endurance type of thing to feel tested 'mechanically' , i like both aspects of it personally ... but DE needs to be really decisive about the path they wanna go with and stick with it , in my opinion .

[Aldain]

You wanna know the ultimate way to make Steel Path "hard"?

Universal CC immunity.

Watch how imbalanced it actually is when you can't just turn the A.I. off with a few staggers from sword swings or -insert CC frame here-.

...But then people will just play Ivara/Loki/Octavia instead.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, Zimzala said:

Then I suggest not playing GaaS games, TBH.

No. Even Scott has admitted that sometimes the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing and I feel his frustration. It’s like this: 

DE: adds 

DE: reworks add

DE: adds again

DE: has to rework the rework because of the add 

DE: adds again

DE: has to rework the reworks rework because of the add

Its a never ending cycle of catch up and update outdated and rework the rework because the lack of communication between add ons/updates/future updates/mechanics. It’s lunacy.
   

[Zimzala]

30 minutes ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

Its a never ending cycle of catch up and update outdated and rework the rework because the lack of communication between add ons/updates/future updates/mechanics. It’s lunacy.   

Just like every GaaS game I have played in the last two decades.

What you call lunacy, I call a living game and I love it.

In a game where Void Magic changes reality as it does in WF, it makes it even more fun to me.

[Tiltskillet]

45 minutes ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

No. Even Scott has admitted that sometimes the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing and I feel his frustration. It’s like this: 

DE: adds 

DE: reworks add

DE: adds again

DE: has to rework the rework because of the add 

DE: adds again

DE: has to rework the reworks rework because of the add

Its a never ending cycle of catch up and update outdated and rework the rework because the lack of communication between add ons/updates/future updates/mechanics. It’s lunacy.
   

That's a normal process.  It's part of every complex online game I've ever played.  These games evolve, but developers can and should only change so much at a time.  Partly because they know that every change they make will have unforeseen consequences for other systems, that will require further changes.

Although I'd grant you this studio is even more disjointed in that approach than most in my experience.  Largely due to the degree they rely on live releases and usage for balance evaluation.

[Krankbert]

Am 6.3.2021 um 20:17 schrieb (XBOX)YoungGunn82:

You don’t get it or you haven’t been here vary long, because you have no idea what I’m talking about. DE has a long history of implementing, then taking that away then implement it again. It’s a waist of Dev time. And It happens way to often.

Please just reread my previous post, and if you still think I didn't understand what you wrote just continue doing that.  Don't bother restating your idea a third time. I got it. You think they should just get it right the first time and don't understand why it doesn't work like that because you apparently haven't been part of a single non-trivial project in your entire life.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

6 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

There's no such thing as balance on any game. If you point me in the direction of the most "fun" and balanced game you can think of, I probably wouldn't play it if you paid me. 

There's a reason why a Mages spells graduate from Fire 1 to Fireaga 4. Games progress and things derive from the original version. I totally agree with small, focused, targeted tweaks, but some game wide sweeping change is a bad idea in my opinion. We don't have their data, but I'm pretty sure there's a good balance of people that like the power Fantasy that support the game, as well as people that want said sweeping changes that also support the game. So this puts DE in a position of basically deciding to lose potentially a large portion of their playerbase (money) on a gamble to drastically change their game and everything people are used to. 

DE wouldn't have released the Helminth if they cared about making another boring balanced game. They need to buff guns (giving customers what they asked for) and add more power in the game because some people clearly want it and are having fun using their imaginations with all the different playstyles.

Why do you think balance and fun are mutually exclusive?

[Aldain]

17 minutes ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Why do you think balance and fun are mutually exclusive?

I'm more concerned that they think there's no such thing as balance in any game.

Even Mario Party games have some semblance of balance, and that is literally an RNG cluster&$^#.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Why do you think balance and fun are mutually exclusive?

As I said before, an idea of fun for one person is a restriction for another. All I can do is have faith that DE doesn't massively nerf the game to appease these people.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 2021-03-03 at 10:27 PM, DrivaMain said:

They will "REEE" everytime something challenging gets added or if it can't be cheesed. They'll use excuses like "Fake Difficulty" or "unfair".

Bullet Sponges with non-dodgeable, no counterplay aside from luck and just flat out running away, auto-hits with enough damage to 1-2 shot a tank frame at full health is not a "challenge" and is 100% artificial difficulty.  If something is either piss easy or completely broken where game mechanics get turned off, you get teleported to an enemy with no chance at negating that teleport, stun locked and insta-killed and there is no in-between difficulty, it's boring as hell or legitimately unfair, then yes, there is a balance issue.  And that's this whole game right now.  You can straight up plow through SP right up until specific units appear and then you're asking the game "How?  What the f*ck just hit me?  How am I dead from full health instantly when I was no where near anything?"  You either burn those units with cheese as soon as they show up or you get burned instantly.  

People defend these units like they represent a legitimate threat, but they're not.  They're the pinnacle of broken Warframe design.  

"If we left all the game mechanics in place, like CC, then the game would be too easy, so we're turning off several game mechanics for these units."

Okay, we'll just use movement and kite them.

"They can teleport you directly to them and stuck lock you."

Okay, we'll use the extreme damage that the modding system you put in allows for to just AMF those units in short order so that we don't get insta-murdered by the AI having ridiculous cheese available to them.

"So we've seen the insane things melee is capable of on the Steel Path, and despite saying we wouldn't balance around that, we're going to balance around that and nerf some stuff."

DE wants us to die, like it's fun to die and not get the drops you're after.  

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

8 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

For instance, right now in the harder SP missions, I really don't have much room for error playing Banshee.   And when I'm not using melee primarily, it's my bail-out.   I'm already thinking I may have to resort to shield gate abuse, something I've mostly resisted to this point. 

I run a Nyx with no health or shield mods in SP.  I utilize the Augur set and Brief respite along with subsumed Condemn and ability spam (which is further assisted by Zenurik with Lockdown spam, Arcane Energize and energy pad spam if RNG doesn't like me.) and a combo of a Gaze secondary built entirely for status and a heavy attack weapon with CO.  SP is entirely about abusing and cheesing the current systems and it's precisely because the lack of balance means you don't have much room for error.  It's not because of a real "challenge" imo.  It's because you're having to use cheesy strats to combat cheesy enemies.

If they do what a lot of their community is assuming they'll do (which says a lot by itself.) and screw the pooch on the changes to melee, we're all going to have to abuse things like shield gating and all the other "abusive" strats that everyone wants nerfed even more.  You can't even play SP like a duck and cover shooter like certain devs want, and not just because of guns being weak, but spawn mechanics and enemy CC cheese straight up doesn't let you stay in cover.  You have to kite HARD if you're trying to not "abuse" any of the meta strats.  Kiting in a game like this feels like complete and total trash, imo.

[DrivaMain]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

DE wants us to die, like it's fun to die and not get the drops you're after.  

That's the point of difficulty

It is meant to make the player suffer with a degree of unfairness so they have to overcome it. The Warframe player base do not want that.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

Just now, DrivaMain said:

That's the point of difficulty

It is meant to make the player suffer with a degree of unfairness so they have to overcome it. The Warframe player base do not want that.

Difficulty is requiring skill to overcome obstacles.  There is zero skill involved in dealing with units that can teleport you to them at will with no counterplay available, stun lock you and then chew through thousands of EHP in 2ish hits.  Everyone always has some smart BS to say "Keep your distance and don't get hit, hurrrr" but they just teleport you to them.  "Get in close and just melee them to death before they can do that even though we just said to keep distance, hurrrrr" but being within melee range of nearly all of the units in question means they melee you, which often times will lift/stun lock you and then they chew through your health in a couple hits even as a tank frame.  The AI and how aggressive it decides to be literally decides the fight for several units in this game.  Counterplay is not available in any form or fashion to an enemy unit that can CC you from anywhere at will and has enough damage to blow through 3500 health and 2k+ armor in one hit.

That unfairness is not difficulty, it is artificial difficulty.  It's no more "difficult" than if the game randomly decided to kill you.  It's no more difficult than dealing with bugs that hard lock mission progress.  Those things wouldn't be fair either.

You masochists and your obsession with "getting one-shot with no recourse is a totally fair and balanced thing because it's supposed to be hard" just need to block me because you're not going to convince me that the enemy auto-hitting me is a "challenge" that I need to overcome.

[Traumtulpe]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

You can't even play SP like a duck and cover shooter like certain devs want, and not just because of guns being weak, but spawn mechanics and enemy CC cheese straight up doesn't let you stay in cover.

Did you watch the sniper video? I don't cheese shield gating (though I make use of it), and actually use cover.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

There is zero skill involved in dealing with units that can teleport you to them at will with no counterplay available, stun lock you and then chew through thousands of EHP in 2ish hits.

I haven't fought enough Acolytes for a conclusive statement, but so far they are extremely hit and miss for me. Sometimes the Acolyte raises his arms without even looking at me, while I am at a distance and shooting him from invisibility - upon which I am teleported to him and perfectly stunlocked until death from full shields. At other times the Acolyte does nothing at all.

The Valkyr one usually dies while still in the Warcry animation (hilarious, I have complained about it's length many times before), Nekros has dodgeable projectiles, Limbo's melee attacks can be juked. There is probably an avoidable trigger for the teleport / stunlock cheese.

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Clearly you don't know DE very well. Their approach to "balancing" the game is the equivalent of using a Ghoul Saw to perform brain surgery. So unless they abandon their foolish plans of catering to a bunch of whiners who wanted balance in a PvE game (AKA: morons) I can predict with 100% accuracy that melee is going to die horribly.

Also, I build well enough to reach level cap in Steel Path Endurance. I've tried all of the different melee types and stances in the game. Come back to me after trying to complete a Steel Path Survival with impact weapons that have no forced slash procs (Bo Prime, Pulmonars, etc) or any heavy weapons without attack speed mods. I can assure you all melee weapons will be just as effective after DE is done with them.

So you've reached level cap in Steel Path and admit that melee will likely be as effective after the nerf, so... what exactly are you complaining about regarding the nerf and how is "just as effective" suddenly the same as "gutted"? Obviously melee could use a far larger nerf aswell.

18 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

There's no such thing as balance on any game. If you point me in the direction of the most "fun" and balanced game you can think of, I probably wouldn't play it if you paid me. 

There's a reason why a Mages spells graduate from Fire 1 to Fireaga 4. Games progress and things derive from the original version. I totally agree with small, focused, targeted tweaks, but some game wide sweeping change is a bad idea in my opinion. We don't have their data, but I'm pretty sure there's a good balance of people that like the power Fantasy that support the game, as well as people that want said sweeping changes that also support the game. So this puts DE in a position of basically deciding to lose potentially a large portion of their playerbase (money) on a gamble to drastically change their game and everything people are used to. 

DE wouldn't have released the Helminth if they cared about making another boring balanced game. They need to buff guns (giving customers what they asked for) and add more power in the game because some people clearly want it and are having fun using their imaginations with all the different playstyles.

There are plenty of games with balance. Pretty much any game based on a PnP rpg system is balanced.

Also, people need to stop using the phrase "power fantasy" as if it means total annihilation. We'd have a power fantasy even if we were severely nerfed since we'd still waddle through enemies and piling up bodies like a supe no matter what. We'd still be that 1 man army taking down batallions of enemies without breaking a sweat. And if a slight nerf to melee and a large buff to ranged alters the idea of power fantasy to some I can only stand here confused and laughing. "Drastically change" isnt a term to be used when we are talking about minor nerfs to something already way overpowered. 

Helminth is probably the first good step towards balance since it evens out the roster a bit more while also adding some much needed depth. And what extra power could people possibly need to make the game more fun? 1HKing isnt enough? May aswell start to introduce mods that drops loot while standing in the orbiter, cos we are soon at that point anyways.