the problem is not Melee being too Op, the problem is the core combat mechanic itself

[MouadSaqui]

The fact that some guns have knock back effect when you are too close to enemies, is my opinion a proof that DE was intentionally pushing for more Melee usage, I don't know about you guys but this is just my opinion, and you can check this for yourselves, Do you guys remember the only Primary weapon everybody went crazy about ? The Bra-ehem-ehem-mma... Nerfed for what exactly ? oh bcs it trivializes the game, while some other weapons and frames just one shot everything out of the box, I just don't get it, Why is kuva weapons require a lot of time investment to squeeze out its full potential, while you can just level up Melee in minutes, and add 3 mods and instantly start seeing damage, I'm not ranting here I just don't see the point from these limitations.

the problem is not Melee being too Op, the problem is the core combat mechanic itself, it just happens that melee is too close to hitting enemies while guns tries to slow you down constantly, Please answer this question guys, how many of you use snipers for anything at all ? apart from Eidolon hunters, Using a freaking sniper in this game is literally pointless, it takes too long to get a perfect shot, the reload speed is absurd on some snipers, there is literally zero reason for you to take a sniper into a defense mission, bcs why would you limit your output damage with that ?

I know their intention is to bring Guns up to a melee, and lower Melee a little bit, But man.. instead of removing the pain that ruin the fun of guns, they points fingers on melee, this doesn't make any sense

 

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

I also don’t really understand the Bramma nerfs, they took a sledge hammer to that thing, and yet if you use carrier you can spam away all day?

Like, it’s exactly as obnoxiously powerful as it was before?

🤷

Was the problem really that people were using it in close quarters combat too much? So now half the weapons in the game have to knock you over?

Yeah, that whole addition to the game was stupid.

Even my Tombfinger staggers me :|

 

Imagine making a blanket nerf to all the explosive weapons in the game, and then wondering why people put guns aside for melee.

 

[TARINunit9]

Two errors here

One is that guns didn't used to have such a high stagger chance. That was added in with damage 3.0

Second:

31 minutes ago, MouadSaqui said:

Do you guys remember the only Primary weapon everybody went crazy about ? The Bra-ehem-ehem-mma... Nerfed for what exactly ? oh bcs it trivializes the game, while some other weapons and frames just one shot everything out of the box, I just don't get it, Why is kuva weapons require a lot of time investment to squeeze out its full potential, while you can just level up Melee in minutes, and add 3 mods and instantly start seeing damage, I'm not ranting here I just don't see the point from these limitations.

They actually DID nerf melee weapons for doing the same thing as the Bramma before. About two years ago, the meta was "Atterax or Tellos Boltace, Maiming Strike + Blood Rush, max attack speed + Primes Reach, spam slide attacks." This would trivialize gameplay just as badly as the Kuva Bramma, and it was nerfed hard into the ground (Boltace got a huge nerf directly, whips got a couple mod interaction + line of sight nerfs that removed their worst abuses)

[DoomFruit]

37 minutes ago, MouadSaqui said:

how many of you use snipers for anything at all

I use them for unveiling headshot while archwing or >100m headshot rivens...

...which is about once every 2 months.

[AlendasNaro]

I don't understand mentality of the people who post this kind of stuff.

[Aldain]

The numbers are part of the problems that are damaging the core combat mechanics too.

When even the biggest tank of an enemy dies in 1-3 swings of any average melee weapon everything that enemy can do is rendered moot.

Melee's power is just one of many many many problems with Warframe's balance, but any time somebody brings up anything to address that the math of Warframe isn't in a good place people jump to the defense of it saying the game is supposed to be completely brainless once you have anything in the same zip code as a meta build.

That's why I'm an advocate of a stat squish, nerf EVERYTHING'S numbers down to something more practical, that way it will be easier to keep them in a relative balance of each other rather than one thing dealing 6billion DPS and another thing barely scratching 40k to kill enemies that by and long only need 3k DPS to kill in a timely fashion.

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, MouadSaqui said:

Please answer this question guys, how many of you use snipers for anything at all ? apart from Eidolon hunters, Using a freaking sniper in this game is literally pointless, it takes too long to get a perfect shot, the reload speed is absurd on some snipers, there is literally zero reason for you to take a sniper into a defense mission, bcs why would you limit your output damage with that ?

i enjoy the vulkar wraith with augment and the recent sporothrix in regular gameplay (sporothrix works well in SP too) ,

i use the sharpshooter & hush mod with ivara (solo and any sniper i feel like at the time) as i like being a silent and deadly invisble frog (now jellyfish) taking our enemies slowly and methodically bonus points with marked for death subsume.

Lanka with mag and the right elements can be fun too.

Snipetron (vandal) is absolutely S#&$ , and you will not see me with it.

Then again i simply enjoy single target semi auto weapons, (prisma grinlok is lovely)

What i dislike is that most enemies are dead by the time i can get an aim , hence solo is the way.

I am hoping some mods come in that can reload my magazine on headshots or something, then it will be really fun.

[maycne.sonahoz]

2 hours ago, MouadSaqui said:

Please answer this question guys, how many of you use snipers for anything at all ? apart from Eidolon hunters, Using a freaking sniper in this game is literally pointless

Illustrating with Snipers because they are more relevant than close-quarters guns (Shotguns) or AoE guns (Ignis or Amprex style).
Illustrating with Eidolon Hunts because they are more relevant than Bounties.

If you want to argue, at least bring the right examples...

[Soy77]

3 hours ago, MouadSaqui said:

instead of removing the pain that ruin the fun of guns, they points fingers on melee, this doesn't make any sense

 

It makes total sense, actually. Not from game-design, but from our flawed human perspectives.

Just imagine a class, if the smart kid aces a test while others did terribly, all the other kids would just blame the smart kid for being smart instead of study harder themselves. Don't lie we all did that.

============

Imho DE is going the right path by focusing on buffing guns, they've made it really clear that they'll do their best to avoid nerfing melees.

You know what other stupid thing that we humans are really good at? Panicking. 

[AlphaPHENIX]

3 hours ago, MouadSaqui said:

Do you guys remember the only Primary weapon everybody went crazy about ? The Bra-ehem-ehem-mma...

You must be new here, I remember days when you couldn't go into a defence mission without seeing a Simulor.

3 hours ago, MouadSaqui said:

Please answer this question guys, how many of you use snipers for anything at all ? apart from Eidolon hunters, Using a freaking sniper in this game is literally pointless, it takes too long to get a perfect shot, the reload speed is absurd on some snipers, there is literally zero reason for you to take a sniper into a defense mission, bcs why would you limit your output damage with that ?

Because I want to, room clearing by just looking at my buttons bores me.

3 hours ago, MouadSaqui said:

The fact that some guns have knock back effect when you are too close to enemies

We used to have self-damage, in 99,8% of cases it was one-shot suicide. So first, DE released a mod that reduced self-damage, which you couldn't even put on every self-damage tool; that alone was dumb...I guess they thought it wasn't dumb enough. So they removed self-damage and within the same update, added two things which would have fixed the problem: Shield gating & AoE damage fall-off. A good desicion would have been to simply reduce self-damage, or at least keep it after adding shield gating, but no. Instead we now have self-staggerstun, Primed Sure Footed went from being a meme to something people unironically use now...and I am just done.

Wake me up when they finally realise the mod system was a mistake.

[Aldain]

15 minutes ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

So first, DE released a mod that reduced self-damage, which you couldn't even put on every self-damage tool; that alone was dumb...I guess they thought it wasn't dumb enough.

That mod didn't even work for the most part actually, most weapons that you could stick it on did enough damage to one-shot pretty much every Warframe not named Revanent.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Uhm....Snipers are amazing with frames that help increase reload speed and fire rate....and even without them....all you have to do is aim and shoot rapidly. It's up to the player to be good with them.

Surely you realize the whole point of Vectis rivens was using it as a machine gun by using Primed chamber and -mag cap...

[Yamazuki]

5 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

I also don’t really understand the Bramma nerfs, they took a sledge hammer to that thing, and yet if you use carrier you can spam away all day?

Like, it’s exactly as obnoxiously powerful as it was before?

🤷

Was the problem really that people were using it in close quarters combat too much? So now half the weapons in the game have to knock you over?

Yeah, that whole addition to the game was stupid.

Even my Tombfinger staggers me :|

 

Imagine making a blanket nerf to all the explosive weapons in the game, and then wondering why people put guns aside for melee.

 

The change was due to people whining they were instantly dying to their own damage, and not really intended as a nerf. There's also multiple ways to negate the self-cc, but not as many ways to avoid killing yourself a million times over.

The issue with self-cc is it was applied even to weapons that did no self-damage, and then to Operator Amp equally despite that not dealing enough damage to themselves.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

another way of solving the melee problem could be by introducing genuinely skilled Melee enemies; take the Guardsman for example: they're supposed to be elite troops, masters of the Amphis Staff. they can block melee attacks and deflect bullets to some degree, perhaps this could be extended to Bailiffs, and introduce Elite Butchers, Scorpions, Flameblades etc that don't just swing their melee all crazy like but perform combos, block and parry melees. then players will have an incentive to keep switching between guns and melee, and conversely, bulletproof enemies like Shield lancers are more easily taken down with melee, so both weapon types have a purpose.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb MouadSaqui:

The fact that some guns have knock back effect when you are too close to enemies, is my opinion a proof that DE was intentionally pushing for more Melee usage, I don't know about you guys but this is just my opinion, and you can check this for yourselves, Do you guys remember the only Primary weapon everybody went crazy about ? The Bra-ehem-ehem-mma... Nerfed for what exactly ? oh bcs it trivializes the game, while some other weapons and frames just one shot everything out of the box, I just don't get it, Why is kuva weapons require a lot of time investment to squeeze out its full potential, while you can just level up Melee in minutes, and add 3 mods and instantly start seeing damage, I'm not ranting here I just don't see the point from these limitations.

the problem is not Melee being too Op, the problem is the core combat mechanic itself, it just happens that melee is too close to hitting enemies while guns tries to slow you down constantly, Please answer this question guys, how many of you use snipers for anything at all ? apart from Eidolon hunters, Using a freaking sniper in this game is literally pointless, it takes too long to get a perfect shot, the reload speed is absurd on some snipers, there is literally zero reason for you to take a sniper into a defense mission, bcs why would you limit your output damage with that ?

I know their intention is to bring Guns up to a melee, and lower Melee a little bit, But man.. instead of removing the pain that ruin the fun of guns, they points fingers on melee, this doesn't make any sense

 

Yes. warframes move too fast and single target makes little sense. there are already niches and these are boss fights. and maybe camping. although when camping i would prefer to use an aoe weapon with unlimited munition.

in addition, mele is extremely good as a finisher with a lot of status procs from other weapons.

[AlphaPHENIX]

11 hours ago, Aldain said:

That mod didn't even work for the most part actually, most weapons that you could stick it on did enough damage to one-shot pretty much every Warframe not named Revanent.

Ya...ya that too.

[PublikDomain]

On 2021-03-04 at 3:19 AM, Aldain said:

Melee's power is just one of many many many problems with Warframe's balance, but any time somebody brings up anything to address that the math of Warframe isn't in a good place people jump to the defense of it saying the game is supposed to be completely brainless once you have anything in the same zip code as a meta build.

The tides are changing slowly but surely. It feels like more people agree with some sort of stat squish now more than ever.

[Aldain]

8 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

The tides are changing slowly but surely. It feels like more people agree with some sort of stat squish now more than ever.

I must admit I keep getting a noticeable amount of rep every time I bring it up, does make me wonder if the idea is becoming more popular.

[(PSN)Unstar]

On 2021-03-04 at 1:14 AM, MouadSaqui said:

Do you guys remember the only Primary weapon everybody went crazy about ? The Bra-ehem-ehem-mma... Nerfed for what exactly ? oh bcs it trivializes the game

As others have pointed out, plenty of other weapons have been "nerfed", which is why I'm going to simply focus on the fact that the Bramma still trivializes the game.  It's a beast.  I honestly can't tell the difference between when it was nerfed and the way it is now.  But a lot of people heard that it was nerfed and just stopped using it, presumably because they assumed it would be bad after a nerf.  Very much not the case.

On 2021-03-04 at 1:14 AM, MouadSaqui said:

Using a freaking sniper in this game is literally pointless, it takes too long to get a perfect shot, the reload speed is absurd on some snipers, there is literally zero reason for you to take a sniper into a defense mission, bcs why would you limit your output damage with that ?

A sniper rifle is a tool for a very specific job.  If you try to use it to get a bunch of kills very quickly, yes, your average player will be disappointed because they will have a very low damage output.  That's why you don't use a hammer to screw a bolt.

Similarly, the Bramma is an amazing crowd destroyer and wipes the floor with most enemies, but if you try to take down a boss like Sargas Ruuk or Vay Hek with it, you'll be even less effective than a sniper in a defense mission would be.

Every tool has strengths and weaknesses.  If you use a tool that is utterly weak for the job you want to do, that's not a problem with game design; that's just evidence that you can actually make meaningful choices in the game.

[Dunkelheit]

Good thing that we now have another thread about melee and gun balance, which they are about to change, we don't have results and we don't know the outcome. So all discussions are entirely pointless until the changes finally happened.

 

[MouadSaqui]

Reading your comments, I now see how this community is sabotaging their own game, its unbelievable, you guys have no brains at all, including some admins, Look guys this isn't 2016 anymore, Warframe is not the only looter shooter in the market, there always will be a "threat" of said game that threatens Warframe's existence, DE still thinks another open world of WOW mechanic will save it, but in fact the only thing that will is Logic and common sense, there is no reason for DE to buff guns if you literally can one shot every single Unite using Warframe abilities, The game core mechanic is sabotaging how fun it could be, you guys are so blind to see this, Want a powerfull gun ? Just use Mag bubble (Magnetize) and shoot through it, Just use Mirage and tripple your damage, and the list is endless...... 

 

[LillyRaccune]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Every tool has strengths and weaknesses.  If you use a tool that is utterly weak for the job you want to do, that's not a problem with game design; that's just evidence that you can actually make meaningful choices in the game.

This. This is right. This is why there's a problem, because some weapons have enough destructive force to defeat any logical/technical disadvantage.

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

I honestly can't tell the difference between when it was nerfed and the way it is now. 

Pre-nerf Bramma:

• High-damage precision projectile (read:sniper-bullet).
• Initial shape-charge-warhead explosion with IPS+blast elements (read:Ogris-on-steroids-with-frag-grenades).
• Followed by seven additional explosive clusters of similar blast radius with a potential for slash damage (read:Continous-Rod-Warhead).

Post-nerf Bramma:

• High-damage projectile.
• Initial small explosion with three smaller/weaker explosive clusters (read:Kulstar).

Summary: I'm so happy that DE nerfed Bramma because (on my ps4 experience) 1-in-3 players was using Wukong "AFK-Deth-Machine" in every mission.

12 minutes ago, MouadSaqui said:

The game core mechanic is sabotaging how fun it could be, you guys are so blind to see this, Want a powerfull gun ? Just use Mag bubble (Magnetize) and shoot through it, Just use Mirage and tripple your damage, and the list is endless...... 

Not exactly endless. Majority of weapons are underpowered-MR-fodder. But I do feel frustrated when many players are all using the same "meta" weapons. TTK is not equivalent to potential damage. That's why Mag's bubble with a bow and Mirage's Hall-of-Plasmors are already "industry standards".

Yes I agree parts of the damage system and energy economy system are poorly executed. No I do not agree that "The game core mechanic is sabotaging how fun it could be". Not at all. I suggest you go to the "Post DevStream Railjack Feedback" sub-forum and help invent new mission types and new enemy types to make the game "more fun".

[Aldain]

Endless power creep is the only thing that will Sabotage Warframe in the long run.

These problems have been present for years, and only gotten worse in many cases, and it is even more clear how out of control the power creep has been after DE fixed the also hysterically out of control Armor scaling on the Grineer. 

But people got the wrong idea, the game isn't easier because the Grineer are squishier now, it just shows that the only reason it wasn't already that easy was because the Grineer were just as broken as the player numbers. We wouldn't need stupidly durable enemies if we didn't have obnoxiously powerful weapons, and now that one part has clearly been brought down, the scales need to be balanced on the other half too.

The numbers have been messed up for so long that some people have gotten used to it, and just assume that it is working, when in reality it isn't, DE's attempts at content show clearly just how impossible it is for them to not deliver content that isn't already solved by the playerbase before it even launches.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

1 hour ago, MouadSaqui said:

Reading your comments, I now see how this community is sabotaging their own game, its unbelievable, you guys have no brains at all, including some admins, Look guys this isn't 2016 anymore, Warframe is not the only looter shooter in the market, there always will be a "threat" of said game that threatens Warframe's existence, DE still thinks another open world of WOW mechanic will save it, but in fact the only thing that will is Logic and common sense, there is no reason for DE to buff guns if you literally can one shot every single Unite using Warframe abilities, The game core mechanic is sabotaging how fun it could be, you guys are so blind to see this, Want a powerfull gun ? Just use Mag bubble (Magnetize) and shoot through it, Just use Mirage and tripple your damage, and the list is endless...... 

 

Ah yes, the classic “everyone else is stupid because they don’t agree with me” response.

Love it, can’t wait for the replies. 

[Loza03]

33 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Every tool has strengths and weaknesses.  If you use a tool that is utterly weak for the job you want to do, that's not a problem with game design; that's just evidence that you can actually make meaningful choices in the game.

Can does not mean will however.

The vast majority of content only asks for the Bramma, and in fact, quite a bit of the content that seems to ask for the Rubico can also be brute-forced with the Bramma. Anything that doesn't have a weak point is fair game

I tested out Hek (on the Steel Path no less) and, TBH, the only issue was ammo. And even then only in the turkey phase, since the difficulty hitting him in his flying phases was offset by the fact that the Bomblets can hit his weakpoints, and it only took 3-4 hits to move to the next phase. Very good damage. Plus the base damage of the Arrow on impact is actually the same as the Rubico, albeit the Rubico sports better crit chance, crit damage and the Combo count which greatly increases it, so that's moot. Still, Bramma is a much better pick for Hek than Rubico for Defence.