the problem is not Melee being too Op, the problem is the core combat mechanic itself

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

2 hours ago, MouadSaqui said:

Trust me, if using carrier becomes a trend, I'm sure DE will nerf that too, its like they don't want such things to be common knowledge, the bramma was like literally everywhere, But instead of bringing up Explosive weapons up to a bramma they decided to Nerf the bramma....  Expect that to happen to Kuva Nukor some times soon

My point is, their nerfs failed.

If you use carrier and one of the many many ways to negate self stagger, it’s like it wasn’t nerfed at all.

I don’t see why they bothered, Bramma is now useless to inexperienced players, and nothing has changed for experienced players at all.

[Marvelous_A]

AFAIK DE still hasn't planned any real change on guns and melee so people are largely just panic over something ambiguous

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I quite literally have a working example. Here:

What "you quite literally have" is more musings from another player on what they think balance looks like... 

I realize that the trend today is to contrive objective fact out of echoed opinions and all— but that really isn't how facts actually work.

2, 10, or 20 players echoing your sentiments doesn't make them, it, or you any more true or correct.

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Feel free to read through that thread and see my thoughts on how DE can balance the game. You can test the idea ingame right now with zero changes made to the game itself.

With respect, I've seen enough of your comments to know that I don't see your ideas regarding direction as particularly informed.

That's not surprising given the fact that you don't actually know what "balance" looks like in Warframe... For that matter, no one else does either.

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

You're free to assert whatever you like. I'm still not talking about success or failure though.

Except that is "quite literally" what you are doing— You've made a causal argument for change based entirely on that same premise.

What else did you think asserting powercreep impacts player count meant ?

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

You sound like a lovely person.

Merely honest...

[PublikDomain]

8 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

What else did you think asserting powercreep impacts player count meant ?

When did I assert anything about player counts?

8 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

With respect

I don't think you know what that means...

9 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

you don't actually know what "balance" looks like in Warframe...

And how would you know that if you didn't even look? I've provided a working example and you won't even take a look. How honest.

[Teljaxx]

I still remember, way back in the dinosaur days of this game, when level 60 enemies were considered hard to kill. But now, thanks to all the unchecked powercreep DE has ignored for the past 8 years, it takes somewhere around level 200 enemies before anyone but the freshest of newbies will even break a sweat.

And yet, despite how much the maximum power we can achieve has increased, the minimum power has barely changed at all. This has created a massive spectrum of potential player power levels. And its why no matter what individual changes DE makes to certain weapons, or even whole weapon categories, it will never actually balance anything. Because each change they make will have to take into consideration every single potential combination of mods and gear the entire game. That's just not possible. Unless DE has a hyper advanced quantum AI hidden away somewhere in their offices to do all those calculations.

This is why a "stat squish", as @Aldain suggested, would be extremely helpful. Bringing the minimum and maximum potential power of any two players much closer together is going to have to happen before any other meaningful changes can happen. Then, DE will also have to keep the powercreep in check going forward as well. Otherwise, this will eventually just happen all over again.

One of the main systems that causes this massive power discrepancy is the mod system. And within that system, the primary culprit is being able to stack mods with similar stat modifiers. If we weren't able to do that, and had to just pick a single mod that increased crit chance, for example, it would go a long way towards shrinking the power gap. Then, another good change would be to add negative modifiers to more mods, similar to Corrupted mods. This would increase build diversity, and make choosing each mod more meaningful. We would actually have to min/max, instead of just maximizing everything for free.

And as @PublikDomain said, the other problem is how each different category of gear has radically different stats for some reason. Even looking at individual mods for different categories, they are completely imbalanced with each other for no reason. Why does Serration give +165% damage increase, while Pressure Point gives 120%? Normalizing the numbers across mods like this would make things much easier for both DE, and us players, to keep track of.

On top of that, there are so many powerful mod effects that only exist in one place. Like Hunter's Munitions, or Condition Overload. There are no analogues to those for any other weapon type.

The only reason DE has been able to get away with all this for so long is because they have been able to hide behind endless missions. The infinite enemy level scaling in those has acted as a band aid to cover up the festering wounds underneath. Because every time our maximum power gets a little higher, it just means we can last a little bit longer in Survival or Defense missions. And that is the closest thing to an endgame Warframe has had throughout most of its existence. So most people have been fine with it. But, all this powercreep has also been slowly unbalancing all the rest of the game. And its only been recently that its finally gotten bad enough for most people to take notice.

I have been saying this for years now: You can't balance an infinite scale. And you can't have an endgame if there is no end. If DE ever want's to balance anything at all, they will have to choose a specific point to balance everything around, both for players and enemies. A fulcrum, if you will. And they can't have that if they just continue to hide behind their endless game modes and act like everything is fine.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 2021-03-04 at 4:32 AM, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

I also don’t really understand the Bramma nerfs, they took a sledge hammer to that thing, and yet if you use carrier you can spam away all day?

Like, it’s exactly as obnoxiously powerful as it was before?

While I didn't agree with the Bramma nerfs it was hardly a sledge hammer.  By your own admission it's just as strong as it was before, which directly implies that it was a very minor nerf.  Self stagger was an ass change though, hard agree on that.  Though I don't think that's got anything to do with melee.

People use melee because it's all a numbers game.  I tried to make an argument that if you can wipe a map by using just enough or slightly more damage than necessary then it's pointless to destroy your own QOL and weapon usability and limit your options by min/maxing damage 10x past that.  Mod for the content you're playing.  I got called an idiot for modding for efficiency and ease of use over "big number best number."  Big number is only best number when you need that big number.  There's a handful of places you need that and it's mostly in SP or endurance running.

Considering the sizable part of the player base that enjoys either just getting big numbers for no reason or enjoys endurance running and limit pushing, I think they need to leave that power creep in the game.  It's 100% needed for those parts of it.  If they were trying to balance down where enemies around 200ish were the top end they would have to nerf pretty much every decent weapon in the game.

The issue with guns isn't the overall lack of strength exactly because a large portion of the player base isn't running endurance or longer SP runs.  Gun work fine for 90% of content.  The issue with them is usability.  People don't want to put up with a long reload animation or a fire rate that leaves enough time in between firing to pull the trigger 25 times.  People don't want to use an auto rifle that requires you to target each individual enemy out of a mob of 20 when there's another mob of 20 waiting to spawn in behind them.  Auto rifles feel great in games where you're using cover and fighting 5-10 enemies per engagement with engagements more spread out.  That's not this game anymore.  Spawn mechanics and enemy numbers and abilities have pushed the player base toward the AOE meta.  Guns need better mechanics, utility and usability in order to be as popular as something like melee where there is no reload time, attack speed is fast as hell, and damage output is good regardless of attack speed.

Single shot rifles need heavy innate punchthrough and possibly ricochet mechanics.  The ability to hit more than one thing at a time.  That, or other forms of utility.  Many of them, like the Veldt and Latron need a hard damage buff.  

Burst rifles need to have time between bursts more heavily effected by fire rate so that there isn't as much of a completely arbitrary delay in firing.  Other utility or mechanics for spreading damage would help them see more use as well.

Auto rifles need to have lightning fast reload speeds.  Even the ones with large magazines should have very fast reload speeds to make up for the time on target most of them require.  That, or a massive damage boost and keeping reload as is, but that could get broken pretty fast.

Either enemy spawn mechanics need to change and drop rates and mechanics adjusted accordingly, or all of the guns need to be pushed toward group engagement over single target.  Guns will never be as popular as melee as long as they have trouble engaging with the large groups of enemies on screen.
 

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

5 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

If DE ever want's to balance anything at all, they will have to choose a specific point to balance everything around, both for players and enemies.

I am completely opposed to pretty much any nerf DE puts out precisely because they refuse to address enemy balance, and have only gotten worse about enemy balance in recent years.  If they were to actually balance the enemies, game mode mechanics and grind, I would be completely fine with hard nerfs to get everything into a much tighter spectrum.  Removal of mandatory mods, multishot, CO, etc in favor of tuning a weapon's utility and having weapon choice be more about the base mechanics of that weapon instead of what parts of it you can exploit with mods would be welcome.

I don't think that a large portion of the playerbase would be on board with massive changes across the board and I don't think DE wants to put in the work though.

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

14 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

While I didn't agree with the Bramma nerfs it was hardly a sledge hammer.  By your own admission it's just as strong as it was before, which directly implies that it was a very minor nerf.  Self stagger was an ass change though, hard agree on that.  Though I don't think that's got anything to do with melee.

People use melee because it's all a numbers game.  I tried to make an argument that if you can wipe a map by using just enough or slightly more damage than necessary then it's pointless to destroy your own QOL and weapon usability and limit your options by min/maxing damage 10x past that.  Mod for the content you're playing.  I got called an idiot for modding for efficiency and ease of use over "big number best number."  Big number is only best number when you need that big number.  There's a handful of places you need that and it's mostly in SP or endurance running.

Considering the sizable part of the player base that enjoys either just getting big numbers for no reason or enjoys endurance running and limit pushing, I think they need to leave that power creep in the game.  It's 100% needed for those parts of it.  If they were trying to balance down where enemies around 200ish were the top end they would have to nerf pretty much every decent weapon in the game.

The issue with guns isn't the overall lack of strength exactly because a large portion of the player base isn't running endurance or longer SP runs.  Gun work fine for 90% of content.  The issue with them is usability.  People don't want to put up with a long reload animation or a fire rate that leaves enough time in between firing to pull the trigger 25 times.  People don't want to use an auto rifle that requires you to target each individual enemy out of a mob of 20 when there's another mob of 20 waiting to spawn in behind them.  Auto rifles feel great in games where you're using cover and fighting 5-10 enemies per engagement with engagements more spread out.  That's not this game anymore.  Spawn mechanics and enemy numbers and abilities have pushed the player base toward the AOE meta.  Guns need better mechanics, utility and usability in order to be as popular as something like melee where there is no reload time, attack speed is fast as hell, and damage output is good regardless of attack speed.

Single shot rifles need heavy innate punchthrough and possibly ricochet mechanics.  The ability to hit more than one thing at a time.  That, or other forms of utility.  Many of them, like the Veldt and Latron need a hard damage buff.  

Burst rifles need to have time between bursts more heavily effected by fire rate so that there isn't as much of a completely arbitrary delay in firing.  Other utility or mechanics for spreading damage would help them see more use as well.

Auto rifles need to have lightning fast reload speeds.  Even the ones with large magazines should have very fast reload speeds to make up for the time on target most of them require.  That, or a massive damage boost and keeping reload as is, but that could get broken pretty fast.

Either enemy spawn mechanics need to change and drop rates and mechanics adjusted accordingly, or all of the guns need to be pushed toward group engagement over single target.  Guns will never be as popular as melee as long as they have trouble engaging with the large groups of enemies on screen.
 

They reduced its ammo reserves to 5.

They made the weapon able to knock you over, and it’s AOE is pretty significant, it renders the weapon useless in any frame that needs to stay moving to stay alive (most.)

They did, in fact, take a sledgehammer to it. They earnestly tried to brutalise it, but they failed. Reducing the maximum ammo to 5 becomes meaningless when paired with carrier, so why even reduce it in the first place? And there are ways around self stagger.

They made the weapon garbage tier for any frame that wants to use a different companion or can’t work stagger mods into their kit.

Was that really who the nerf was aimed it?

Was being able to use a Kubrow what made Bramma so OP to begin with? It was just a senseless change that shouldn’t have gone live.

[ganjou234]

On 2021-03-06 at 4:40 AM, Padre_Akais said:

Power creep is inevitable in any game where things get constantly added over time—When people harp about power creep they seem to lose the notion that power dynamics aren't static in live service games. This is vastly more noticeable in scenarios where the items added are designed to modify a class of items...

Players can argue that is "shouldn't be as pronounced", etc but ignore that it's always voluntary.

Put simply, There is no player in Warframe that is accidentally overpowered.

 

With respect to you, I find concepts like "stat squishing" to be silly as it's merely designed to functionally drop numbers and is not effective in creating scenarios of parity or challenge. It's shifting the goal post from nerfing for effect to what amounts to just nerfing the number itself.

All of the nerf herding is "crab in a barrel" logic in that it presumes, ad nauseam, the same thing, "If we can only get X fixed...That'll solve everything.".

It never has...

It never will...

I don't think people think that a "stat squish" is the only solution, they're simply saying that it's a start of what could be a way of fixing things. You can see a lot of these kind of posts for the longest time (as early as 2014 iirc), has suggested a holistic fix.

Say....

normalize weapon stats (stat squish) -> Become creative and rework most of the mods to become more than stat modifiers-> fix/remove enemy level scaling -> Improve enemy and AI design -> Improve level design -> Improve enemy director -> etc....

[ganjou234]

34 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

People don't want to put up with a long reload animation or a fire rate that leaves enough time in between firing to pull the trigger 25 times. 

This is why i think holstered auto-reloading should become a default feature on automatic weapons. I use it on all builds that I have with long reloads.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

On 2021-03-06 at 7:36 AM, Padre_Akais said:

You are suggesting to keep them manageable by dropping them... Potatyto / Potahto

Help me understand something here. We all want the same end goal, a properly balanced game, right? So if a stat squish were applied universally to players and enemies, the only thing that would change is the numbers become easier to manage. That just seems like a natural first step toward proper balance, IMO. Why are you so opposed to it? What is the advantage to keeping the numbers unmanageable?  

[Loza03]

9 hours ago, ganjou234 said:

I don't think people think that a "stat squish" is the only solution, they're simply saying that it's a start of what could be a way of fixing things. You can see a lot of these kind of posts for the longest time (as early as 2014 iirc), has suggested a holistic fix.

Say....

normalize weapon stats (stat squish) -> Become creative and rework most of the mods to become more than stat modifiers-> fix/remove enemy level scaling -> Improve enemy and AI design -> Improve level design -> Improve enemy director -> etc....

As a proponent of it, I don't even think it's a complete solution.

Warframe's problems are complicated, and deeply rooted.

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

As a proponent of it, I don't even think it's a complete solution.

Warframe's problems are complicated, and deeply rooted.

Agreed, most of the issues are more inherent to actual content design choices rather than just the numbers.

...It's just that the numbers are breaking everything so badly that we can't even tell what is good or bad design anymore.

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Help me understand something here. We all want the same end goal, a properly balanced game, right? So if a stat squish were applied universally to players and enemies, the only thing that would change is the numbers become easier to manage. That just seems like a natural first step toward proper balance, IMO. Why are you so opposed to it? What is the advantage to keeping the numbers unmanageable?  

Because it's not the root of the problem... 

It's basically just asking DE to do some inane crap for grins and giggles all the while knowing players are going to complain once it's done because it didn't solve the problem anyway.

Ideas like the one in this thread are, for all intents and purposes, trolling.

"Uh, they did it in a different game so it'll work here..." Is essentially throwing random solutions at a problem that hasn't even actually been identified yet. 

• Anyone mentioning auditing the interactions between different mechanics to remove the ones that aren't intended? 
• Anyone talking about hard capping attributes?
• Anyone talking about changing the way enemies in groups take damage to slow down one shots? 
• Anyone got an idea on what the game's cadence would look like when those got removed?

Not really... One or two folks will mention something like that every now and again and it goes over about like a wet fart—Everyone acts like they didn't hear it and finds some place else to be instead.

Why is that? I don't know— I think it's because those are the types of changes that will actually inconvenience them too... 

Instead, it's "Let's squish some stats" or  whatever the proposed nerf of the month is next... Or worse, Lemmings littering the Forum spouting whatever their favorite Youtuber (the biggest bunch of armchair devs there is) said constantly and without any hint of perspective.

I've been here for years now (all of them) and none of these things have ever accomplished anything positive as it relates to "balance".

All of this ignores what the actual Developers view as balance to begin with and replaces it with a 100k different subjective interpretations.

Most of which, funnily enough,  being achievable by a few less forma...

So, to make a long story short (too late)... I'm not opposed to changes if they make sense and actually resolve a real issue— This one won't accomplish anything meaningful though.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

14 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Because it's not the root of the problem... 

It's basically just asking DE to do some inane crap for grins and giggles all the while knowing players are going to complain once it's done because it didn't solve the problem anyway.

Ideas like the one in this thread are, for all intents and purposes, trolling.

"Uh, they did it in a different game so it'll work here..." Is essentially throwing random solutions at a problem that hasn't even actually been identified yet. 

• Anyone mentioning auditing the interactions between different mechanics to remove the ones that aren't intended? 
• Anyone talking about hard capping attributes?
• Anyone talking about changing the way enemies in groups take damage to slow down one shots? 
• Anyone got an idea on what the game's cadence would look like when those got removed?

Not really... One or two folks will mention something like that every now and again and it goes over about like a wet fart—Everyone acts like they didn't hear it and finds some place else to be instead.

Why is that? I don't know— I think it's because those are the types of changes that will actually inconvenience them too... 

Instead, it's "Let's squish some stats" or  whatever the proposed nerf of the month is next... Or worse, Lemmings littering the Forum spouting whatever their favorite Youtuber (the biggest bunch of armchair devs there is) said constantly and without any hint of perspective.

I've been here for years now (all of them) and none of these things have ever accomplished anything positive as it relates to "balance".

All of this ignores what the actual Developers view as balance to begin with and replaces it with a 100k different subjective interpretations.

Most of which, funnily enough,  being achievable by a few less forma...

So, to make a long story short (too late)... I'm not opposed to changes if they make sense and actually resolve a real issue— This one won't accomplish anything meaningful though.

No one is claiming a stat squish is a complete solution, though. From what I’ve read, those in favor of a stat squish see it as step 1 in a long list of steps.

Of course a stat squish alone doesn’t fix anything, but again, it makes the numbers more manageable so other problems can more easily be fixed. I still don’t see any logical arguments for keeping the numbers in their current unmanageable state.

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Of course a stat squish alone doesn’t fix anything, but again, it makes the numbers more manageable so other problems can more easily be fixed.

To put it in an analogy, trying to fix things right now would be like trying to add a room to a house with all the furniture still in place, you're just gonna break things in the process.

The stat squish is just the cleanup to prevent yourself from breaking that priceless vase while taking a wall out to add on another room.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

Ideas like the one in this thread are, for all intents and purposes, trolling.

Give him exactly what he asks for and now you're "trolling". 🙄

Uh huh.

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

I still don’t see any logical arguments for keeping the numbers in their current unmanageable state.

That's odd, because you literally just made one...

↓

2 hours ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Of course a stat squish alone doesn’t fix anything

There is no logic in citing cause for an action you know will have no effect.

That is illogical by definition.

Frankly, I'd have more respect for the argument in question if folks were honest about it... "I don't like big numbers and hate seeing people kill stuff fast... They need to squish the stats.".

But arguments for the sake of a balance you've never actually seen or numbers you don't actually calculate? They amount to sophistry.

And as to the notion of keeping numbers more manageable...

No one is carrying a slide rule or calculator into missions so any mention of making numbers "more manageable" is, at best, disingenuous and, at worst, petty trolling.   

[PublikDomain]

8 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

That's odd, because you literally just made one...

I don't think that's how that works, buddy... Maybe try including the entire quote?

2 hours ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Of course a stat squish alone doesn’t fix anything, but again, it makes the numbers more manageable so other problems can more easily be fixed.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

57 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

That's odd, because you literally just made one...

↓

There is no logic in citing cause for an action you know will have no effect.

That is illogical by definition.

You literally just deleted the rest of my quote where I gave you the effect it would have: it would make the numbers more manageable so other problems can be more easily fixed. 

Quote

Frankly, I'd have more respect for the argument in question if folks were honest about it... "I don't like big numbers and hate seeing people kill stuff fast... They need to squish the stats.".

You are missing the point. An enemy with 20 HP and a player that deals 30 damage is no different than an enemy with 20,000 HP and a player that deals 30,000 damage. Both enemies die equally as easy, but one set of numbers is easier to manage.

Warframe currently has such out of control multipliers on top of multipliers that we’ve ended up with numbers the devs simply can’t manage.

It’s the same reason you simplify your fractions on a math test in school. You don’t write 15/30, you write 1/2.

57 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

But arguments for the sake of a balance you've never actually seen or numbers you don't actually calculate? They amount to sophistry.

And as to the notion of keeping numbers more manageable...

No one is carrying a slide rule or calculator into missions so any mention of making numbers "more manageable" is, at best, disingenuous and, at worst, petty trolling.   

We’re talking about making the numbers more manageable for the devs, not for the players.

I’m sorry but I just feel like you’re not understanding the point we’re trying to make.

And one last thing, I’m kind of baffled by the assertion that we’re trolling. Seems pretty clear that this is a legitimate opinion we hold, so if you disagree just tell us you think we’re wrong.

Saying we’re trolling is, at best, disingenuous and, at worst, kinda makes it seem like you’re the one trolling.

[Aldain]

29 minutes ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

You are missing the point. An enemy with 20 HP and a player that deals 30 damage is no different than an enemy with 20,000 HP and a player that deals 30,000 damage. Both enemies die equally as easy, but one set of numbers is easier to manage.

This, the math needed to hit 30k is usually a lot more complex than to hit 30, that's what we mean by making things managable.

Think about how a damage formula looks for Warframe:

Base Damage multiplied by damage multipliers multiplied by damage type vs health/armor/shield type multiplier multiplied by critical multiplier multiplied by headshot multiplier multiplied by (insert multiplier here)...

Obviously this isn't the actual math, but five minutes on the Damage subsection of the Warframe wiki shows formulae like this:

To those using Dark Mode, forgive me but I can't get a background to make it stand out, but could ANYONE tell at a glance what this is a formula for without looking it up?

Now picture if you will what changing even ONE variable in this will do, THAT is what we mean by making things managable, by reducing the massive numbers of variables that need to be calculated.

[Teljaxx]

54 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

That's odd, because you literally just made one...

↓

There is no logic in citing cause for an action you know will have no effect.

That is illogical by definition.

Frankly, I'd have more respect for the argument in question if folks were honest about it... "I don't like big numbers and hate seeing people kill stuff fast... They need to squish the stats.".

But arguments for the sake of a balance you've never actually seen or numbers you don't actually calculate? They amount to sophistry.

And as to the notion of keeping numbers more manageable...

No one is carrying a slide rule or calculator into missions so any mention of making numbers "more manageable" is, at best, disingenuous and, at worst, petty trolling.   

Simply removing the flat tire on your car won't make it driveable. But you have to do so before you can replace the tire, and actually fix the problem.

And that's the real problem here. DE has ignored all the things that have been slowly breaking in this game for so long, that there is no easy fix anymore. Its not even as simple as replacing a single flat tire. At this point, all the tires are flat, the axles are bent, the differential is cracked, and the engine is missing half its pistons. And before we can even start to try and fix things, we have to identify all the issues, and figure out where to even begin.

I know everyone hates the Wouldacouldashoulda, but that's exactly what has happened here. DE should have planed things out better from the start. If they had actually bothered to pick a specific point to balance everything around from the beginning, and actually stuck to it, then things would have never ended up like this. But now, its probably too late. I don't actually even know if its possible for them to actually fix everything at this point. It will most likely take them years of doing nothing but fixes to get things to where the should be.

So really, it might just be time to claim the car as totaled, and buy a new one. AKA, make a sequel, and avoid these same mistakes the next time around.

Or, we could all do what you keep doing, and insulting everyone that's actually trying to help fix things, while completely avoiding actually doing anything constructive yourself. Because ignorance is the real solution, isn't it? If you don't admit there even is a problem, then it can't hurt you, right? And ignoring the problem totally isn't what got us into this mess in the fist place. Nope nope nope...

[Zimzala]

To the tune of "the Wheels on the Bus"...

"The armchair developers go 'round and 'round..."

The only real issue is that the players will never all agree with each other, much less all agree with DE, so it's just people talking in circles, if not just talking past each other, with intense passion and purpose, 'round and 'round we go...

As one comedian once said, it's like "watching a teenager who did a thing twice, talking to a teenager who has only done the thing once", trying to convince them they "know how it all works"...

[Aldain]

DE has gotten things wrong before, they've admitted to getting things wrong before and have made improvements on suggestions from people who noticed what they got wrong.

All from "armchair developers", sometimes something that even a normal everyday person can figure out by logic can be missed by an expert because of a difference in perspective.

Even the Workshop that dropped has components of feedback from said "armchair developers", things that are intensely important like quality of life changes to things DE likely only tested on paper for Railjack (resources being adjusted again for example) and launched far more complex than they needed to be.

So if they've used player feedback before, admitted that they got something wrong before and have adjusted things from feedback from "armchair developers" then why does it not stand to reason that somebody, somewhere might be right about the numbers being too complex for their own good?

[Zimzala]

7 minutes ago, Aldain said:

DE has gotten things wrong before, they've admitted to getting things wrong before and have made improvements on suggestions from people who noticed what they got wrong.

All from "armchair developers", sometimes something that even a normal everyday person can figure out by logic can be missed by an expert because of a difference in perspective.

Even the Workshop that dropped has components of feedback from said "armchair developers", things that are intensely important like quality of life changes to things DE likely only tested on paper for Railjack (resources being adjusted again for example) and launched far more complex than they needed to be.

So if they've used player feedback before, admitted that they got something wrong before and have adjusted things from feedback from "armchair developers" then why does it not stand to reason that somebody, somewhere might be right about the numbers being too complex for their own good?

Sure, but there is a big difference in what we are talking about, it's not black and white, at all.

What I am referring to is this idea that the minutiae, the tiny, specific details of the math and the numbers, cannot be properly tweaked in a forum thread, because players do not have all the data, period.

We are the test bed for the game on PC, after all.

I think it's funny, hilarious some days, that posters will go 'round and 'round in circles "at each other's throat's", over all these little details.

It's funny to me, I get called weird for that all the time, by my wife and others.

It's not calling out things could be better, it's not giving constructive feedback, it's How that data is presented, the circular arguments are hilarious.