Melees are only considered overpowered because D.E. keeps removing their supposed risk.

[_4shes]

Opinion

TLDR; The problems plaguing melee and guns go far beyond just spamming E and big numbers and D.E. is seemingly tackling a byproduct of a problem instead of the root causes. It's like taking medication for one symptom of a disease rather than trying to treat the disease itself. 

Theoretically speaking, melees are where they're supposed to be for most frames. If you're not playing a tanky or immortal frame then melee is spot on in terms of risk and reward. D.E. has a tendency of nerfing and dismantling strategies caused by their own failure to understand their own game. They seem to forget one aspect of the game when looking at another despite them being intertwined in some way.

Melees are in the spot where they are supposed to be only if you're playing a non-tanky/squishy frame. Because of a problem caused by a few frames and intentional design, D.E. decides to rob Peter to pay Paul. Apparently when D.E. greenlit these frames they forgot their interactions with other aspects of the game such as melee.

I'm guessing D.E. doesn't want to tackle the root of the problem and would rather tackle the byproduct of it because it's easier and wouldn't draw attention to something else. It's understandable however, it's impossible to keep this community happy and D.E. some what makes it impossible to do so.

I still agree that D.E. should take a look at ranged, especially damage types. This a prime example of how they forget one aspect of the game when looking at another despite them being intertwined. Damage types being criminally underpowered outside of niche strats such as, impact, cold, magnetic, electricity, toxin, gas, puncture are also a reason why guns are deemed as weaker as well. If these damage types had a meaningful impact on gameplay they could have compensated for the issues we face today regarding guns. 

10 hours ago, Zeddypanda said:

In short, to make sure I understand correctly:

• Melees are stronger than guns, and this makes sense for what's supposed to be the riskier option.
• The former statement flies out the window when we can just be immortal.
• The problem is not melee, it's immortality.

Cool vids.

[Loza03]

I don't think it's one or the other. It's both - feeding into and exacerbating each other.

 

Melee does deal a disproportionate amount of damage for it's risk factor. Combo Count is trivial to maintain and Weeping Wounds and Blood Rush are therefore trivial to keep at their immensely high level, Heavy Attacks are much the same way, and Condition Overload is highly abusable with the right setups since it's very easy to bypass its main drawback and make it pure profit.

However, everything pointed out about how melee's risk only applies for select Warframes is also true. Damage types are busted, immortal frames do erase what few drawbacks melee has. These are just as problematic, if not a little more, and critically, nothing stops them feeding into each other. If there's a strong argument that melee's strengths heavily outweigh its weaknesses, then what happens when that weakness gets erased? What happens when the busted damage system gets worked on top of the busted modding for melee on top of busted immortal frames?

We need not imagine, for it's the game we play in.

 

At the end of the day, these problems aren't in isolation. We can't point at any one issue and say 'there it is! That's the source of Warframe's ills!' because that's simply not true. 

[maddragonmaster]

I took a long break from forum talking for a while since this whole thing can go south even when you suggest an decent and ok idea. though i am going to just say this. I don't think it so much as DE doesn't understand their own game. its more of that the players don't accept the path that the game goes. the reason i believe it this why is because if DE didn't understand their own game then the game would of flopped a long long time ago.

as for the melee tweaking i am holding any critiques till I get any words.

I have had so many problems with challenging content trying to be realized that i am starting to get tired of the words of challenge and difficulty. and the problems tend to shift to various points where some times its just the attempt at it and fail to have it balanced so i am not over whelmed or under whelmed with it, or the other thing where the gaming community at is whole tries its hardest to drive a wedge between each other between the "pros" and the "casuals". which i wouldn't have much problem with difficulty or a challenge if i didn't feel like i have to prove that i can enjoy a game just as much as everyone else. sure people say its ok to make mistakes but then you get ridiculed for make just one mistake, just one. 

[SneakyErvin]

33 minutes ago, _4shes said:

Melees are in the spot where they are supposed to be only if you're playing a non-tanky/squishy frame. Because of a problem caused by a few frames and intentional design, D.E. decides to rob Peter to pay Paul. Apparently when D.E. greenlit these frames they forgot their interactions with other aspects of the game such as melee.

But that isnt really true. Inaros and friends just makes it easier, melee is still over the top even on squishy frames in places like Steel Path. And this practically only applies to infested missions since squishier frames rely on energy and disruptors are a pita. Heck, even Hildryn struggles versus infested since her health pool and armor isnt very large, so a toxic ancient can really #*!% her up straight through the shields in Steel Path.

But versus other factions the impact of Inaros and a few of the others is relatively small, since all frames that rely on abilities to survive do more than fine when disruptors arent around to make everything an energy leeching mob.

[Jarriaga]

I've been saying this for weeks before the gun buff announcement:

The problem there is that melee is designed for high risk/high reward but enemies are so tame at close range that they remove the risk factor that melee damage has. This makes melee the convenient choice, and would remain the convenient choice even if it dealt less damage than guns. It would still be the safer option outside ability map nuking.

We would not be having this conversation if you were dealt true damage that bypassed your abilities and shield gating if you were hit in melee range to properly balance the risk/reward equation. How many people here saying that melee needs a nerf or primaries need to be buffed to melee levels would be saying that if they took melee damage in accordance to their own melee DPS? 

I'd wager a very low number.

They would instead be crying about melee being unusable because melee enemies hit too hard, and the Infested would be the most hated faction instead of the Corpus, because the current hardest-hitting enemy is a nullifier due to players building around nothing more than abilities.

Having enemies bypass shield gating and abilities when dealing melee damage would also give more importance to WF armor being the only way to reduce damage taken from enemy melee, thus giving WF armor a reason to exist in the current game (Because why reduce damage when I can use an ability and negate it?)

21 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Inaros and friends

...Should take percentage damage from melee so they can die in 12-18 melee hits once enemies hit level 100.

[ReddyDisco]

[maddragonmaster]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I don't think it's one or the other. It's both - feeding into and exacerbating each other.

 

Melee does deal a disproportionate amount of damage for it's risk factor. Combo Count is trivial to maintain and Weeping Wounds and Blood Rush are therefore trivial to keep at their immensely high level, Heavy Attacks are much the same way, and Condition Overload is highly abusable with the right setups since it's very easy to bypass its main drawback and make it pure profit.

However, everything pointed out about how melee's risk only applies for select Warframes is also true. Damage types are busted, immortal frames do erase what few drawbacks melee has. These are just as problematic, if not a little more, and critically, nothing stops them feeding into each other. If there's a strong argument that melee's strengths heavily outweigh its weaknesses, then what happens when that weakness gets erased? What happens when the busted damage system gets worked on top of the busted modding for melee on top of busted immortal frames?

We need not imagine, for it's the game we play in.

 

At the end of the day, these problems aren't in isolation. We can't point at any one issue and say 'there it is! That's the source of Warframe's ills!' because that's simply not true. 

i could point out that the players of warframe don't moderate themselves as they probably should. but a few could brush it off as ravings of a crazy person. with people trying to disprove me. but i'll just ask something. didn't DE say they are looking into a method to preventing people from over stacking on for example melee stat like attack speed? or am i mistaken?

[Aldain]

Even with the risk there's too many things that remove risk that aren't Melee related (Limbo says hi) for it to remain at that power scaling.

[Loza03]

35 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

i could point out that the players of warframe don't moderate themselves as they probably should. but a few could brush it off as ravings of a crazy person. with people trying to disprove me. but i'll just ask something. didn't DE say they are looking into a method to preventing people from over stacking on for example melee stat like attack speed? or am i mistaken?

It's not the players job to design the game.

I, as a DM, do not ask my players to come up with the game for me. It's my job to figure out what enemies and situations would be appropriate for my players, level, abilities, weapons and hangers-on. I might ask them for what they want to see, and provide it, but I'm ultimately the arbiter about how that comes about, and I need to know when to say 'no'. And DE is our dungeon master.

 

And yeah, DE has indeed been talking about melee changes. It's prompted this being one of the major topics of discussion - that and a Quite Shy video demonstrating the absurdities of melee. 

[Zimzala]

58 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

It's not the players job to design the game.

And yet, here we are, with a literally army of arm-chair developers thinking they can 'make that game company obey' with the sheer force of their General Forum threads.

Rather than accept what the game company does and play it, or not play if they choose, we instead have an army of game players that think just because they beat some computer games, they are now qualified to re-design them.

When you have literally a group that will not shut up about how much better the game could be if DE 'would just', when they have no clue what they are are talking about in terms of time, money , and resources, we end up with this echo chamber of problem solvers that think it's 'just that easy'.

It's amazing to watch the sheer Ego behind some of these things, it's like watching the person that has never had anyone say No to them in RL and think all their ideas are gold, who then actually gets a real job and learns co-workers will not just agree like Mom, and thinks everyone else is the problem.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

4 hours ago, maddragonmaster said:

I have had so many problems with challenging content trying to be realized that i am starting to get tired of the words of challenge and difficulty. and the problems tend to shift to various points where some times its just the attempt at it and fail to have it balanced so i am not over whelmed or under whelmed with it, or the other thing where the gaming community at is whole tries its hardest to drive a wedge between each other between the "pros" and the "casuals". which i wouldn't have much problem with difficulty or a challenge if i didn't feel like i have to prove that i can enjoy a game just as much as everyone else. sure people say its ok to make mistakes but then you get ridiculed for make just one mistake, just one. 

I’ve read this paragraph 3 times and still can’t make heads or tails of it.

Not trying to be mean, genuinely just trying to understand what is the point you’re trying to make?

[(XBOX)Apoll0 666]

Good lord, everyday it's another 5 posts about someone who's saying they know the best way to fix melee and explain the "real problem". I myself rarely use melee unless I'm doing Dark Sector farming with Nekros, then I really need to slice some infested, other than that I love my Dread and Acceltra. I can understand if it's a very noticeable problem in steel path or so but still, has never been an issue for me.

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

...Should take percentage damage from melee so they can die in 12-18 melee hits once enemies hit level 100.

It could work, but it would still be too many hits needed to take them down given how rare it is for enemies to actually melee outside of infested missions. I think the solution for Inaros and Grendel would be to lower their health drastically to more normal levels. The game doesnt have room for frames that can reach around 5k hp, and even less room for those that can reach near 10k.

[TARINunit9]

5 hours ago, _4shes said:

Theoretically speaking, melees are where they're supposed to be for most frames. If you're not playing a tanky or immortal frame then melee is spot on in terms of risk and reward. D.E. has a tendency of nerfing and dismantling strategies caused by their own failure to understand their own game. They seem to forget one aspect of the game when looking at another despite them being intertwined in some way.

Melees are in the spot where they are supposed to be only if you're playing a non-tanky/squishy frame. Because of a problem caused by a few frames and intentional design, D.E. decides to rob Peter to pay Paul. Apparently when D.E. greenlit these frames they forgot their interactions with other aspects of the game such as melee.

I disagree. 

This isn't the first thread to pop up since the stream to claim "melee is inherently risky because you have to be close to the enemy." That is true in most games, but it's a non-factor in Warframe. This isn't a recent thing like you claim in the thread title, this has ALWAYS been true. Tenno move so fast and have so many ways to ablate a couple glancing hits, that melee and guns are equally risky for Tenno

No, melee is overpowered because it is just plain more powerful. Factor one: you get more damage out faster. Factor two: it's much easier to execute. Combine factor one with factor two and you get overpowered

[_4shes]

39 minutes ago, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

Good lord, everyday it's another 5 posts about someone who's saying they know the best way to fix melee and explain the "real problem". I myself rarely use melee unless I'm doing Dark Sector farming with Nekros, then I really need to slice some infested, other than that I love my Dread and Acceltra. I can understand if it's a very noticeable problem in steel path or so but still, has never been an issue for me.

My guy where did I say anything about knowing how to fix melee. I'm simply expressing my opinion. What do you expect to hear on the forums especially after a major devstream explaining several things pertaining to melee and gun balance? I swear warframe players are masochistic. They enjoy coming to posts they dont enjoy reading just to say they don't enjoy reading it. If you didn't like seeing it just move on. I guess I can say, good lord, everyday it's another 5 comments about someone who's saying they're tired of seeing something. Also my point was about how warframes invalidate the risks thus make melees appear to be more powerful I didn't mention any fixing of melees. 

[_4shes]

2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I disagree. 

This isn't the first thread to pop up since the stream to claim "melee is inherently risky because you have to be close to the enemy." That is true in most games, but it's a non-factor in Warframe. This isn't a recent thing like you claim in the thread title, this has ALWAYS been true. Tenno move so fast and have so many ways to ablate a couple glancing hits, that melee and guns are equally risky for Tenno

No, melee is overpowered because it is just plain more powerful. Factor one: you get more damage out faster. Factor two: it's much easier to execute. Combine factor one with factor two and you get overpowered

First, my title is in present perfect continuous tense it doesn't claim or indicate that anything is recent. All it indicates is something that has started in the past and is continuing into the present. 

Second, you are right that melee is more powerful and overpowered but I'd argue that knock downs, nullifiers and toxic clouds from the infested are all prominent obstacles in the game. Saying it's a non factor in warframe is disingenuous as it doesn't represent all situations. Not all builds and frames are knockdown immune and not everyone has their hands on prime sure footed or a frame with an ability that makes them immune to knock down. My main point is unless you're playing a tank or a frame who can become immune, the risks of melee still apply to you very much so. You have a point but not everyone is playing with a perfect build all the time 

[Orokin]

The whole problem is everything about the game.

Unbalanced armor scaling causes exponential EHP growth for one faction,

Slash procs are unbalanced because they completely ignore armor,

Primary/secondary weapons cannot deal with armor as effectively because they don't have slash procs,

Melee weapons are completely unbalanced because they do a lot of slash procs, a lot of damage and because the risk vs reward is not there,

The risk vs reward is not there because there is a huge differential between EHP of tanky frames and non-tanky frames making it difficult to balance enemy damage,

Enemy damage scales exponentially so they don't have to balance anything and can just say "play at whatever level feels fun",

Exponentially increasing damage and increasing enemy accuracy with hitscan weapons means that any sort of skill is thrown out the window and players have to rely on invulnerability to stay alive, or braindead invisibility, or braindead complete enemy CC.

 

So yeah this is a multifaceted problem that won't be solved with "reduce melee attack speed" and "give some new primary mods".

[Zimzala]

14 minutes ago, Orokin said:

The whole problem is everything about the game.

Hyperbole much?

Too funny.

[TARINunit9]

59 minutes ago, _4shes said:

Second, you are right that melee is more powerful and overpowered but I'd argue that knock downs, nullifiers and toxic clouds from the infested are all prominent obstacles in the game. Saying it's a non factor in warframe is disingenuous as it doesn't represent all situations. Not all builds and frames are knockdown immune and not everyone has their hands on prime sure footed or a frame with an ability that makes them immune to knock down. My main point is unless you're playing a tank or a frame who can become immune, the risks of melee still apply to you very much so. You have a point but not everyone is playing with a perfect build all the time 

I don't really think any of this applies either. Knockdowns really aren't a factor in melee play. You actually need Atlas/Sure-Footed more as a ranged fighter than a melee fighter

Though I don't have perfect archival memory to know how long this has been true; I don't remember if this has always been true, or only since Damage 3.0 upgraded blocking to allow you to block knockdowns while attacking (yes, you can do this. You can even hear the clanging sound of a successful block. Grineer Prosecutors can do it too)

[(XBOX)Apoll0 666]

1 hour ago, _4shes said:

My guy where did I say anything about knowing how to fix melee. Also my point was about how warframes invalidate the risks thus make melees appear to be more powerful I didn't mention any fixing of melees. 

I meant to put a "or" there, either they're making their "flawless fix" or explaining "the real problem" . The melee/primary fix changes haven't been released yet theres still a new person everyday explaining some way that DE was wrong and how they should've looked at it a different way. 

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

42 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Hyperbole much?

Too funny.

What’s wrong with hyperbole? There are so many facets of this game that lack proper balance, saying “everything” is obviously hyperbolic but it still conveys the point that this game has a ton of unbalanced systems.

[Zimzala]

Just now, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

What’s wrong with hyperbole? There are so many facets of this game that lack proper balance, saying “everything” is obviously hyperbolic but it still conveys the point that this game has a ton of unbalanced systems.

Wrong?

It's hilarious to me.

It's hilarious that some posters get this worked up to the point they think they have to spout hyperbole in their prose in their attempt to get the rest of us to 'stop having fun'.

It's hilarious to me that some people have lost sight of any sort of reasonable discourse over some tweak to a video game that they have to make it sound like the sky is falling.

These are all opinions, there is no 'right and wrong', just some really, really funny POVs, IMO.

The Internet runs on hate and Hyperbole.

I just thought that sentence was really, really funny.

As for a point it conveys? All it conveys to me is that the poster should find another game, if not another hobby. Nothing more.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

2 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Wrong?

It's hilarious to me.

It's hilarious that some posters get this worked up to the point they think they have to spout hyperbole in their prose in their attempt to get the rest of us to 'stop having fun'.

It's hilarious to me that some people have lost sight of any sort of reasonable discourse over some tweak to a video game that they have to make it sound like the sky is falling.

These are all opinions, there is no 'right and wrong', just some really, really funny POVs, IMO.

The Internet runs on hate and Hyperbole.

I just thought that sentence was really, really funny.

As for a point it conveys? All it conveys to me is that the poster should find another game, if not another hobby. Nothing more.

You are reading WAY too much into one little sentence.

I have a co-worker that’s late to work a lot, so I might say “oh Bob is always late”. Is Bob actually ALWAYS late? Of course not, but everyone knows what I mean. 

Is EVERYTHING in Warframe actually unbalanced? Of course not, but everyone knows what I mean.

[Zimzala]

7 minutes ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

You are reading WAY too much into one little sentence.

I have a co-worker that’s late to work a lot, so I might say “oh Bob is always late”. Is Bob actually ALWAYS late? Of course not, but everyone knows what I mean. 

Is EVERYTHING in Warframe actually unbalanced? Of course not, but everyone knows what I mean.

I am just finding humor among all this negative crap people post about a video game.

I dunno what you are on about, TBH, I see humor where I see humor, even in the midst of all of this whining.

I prefer more precise language and less hyperbole, as well as assumptions like 'everyone knows what I mean'.

I think you are reading WAY too much into my prose. 

[Skaleek]

Melee damage is so much higher than ranged that any risk is irrelevant.