Too Grindy

[Sevek7]

I tried to get a Magnetic damage Kuva Nukor. Killed a very large number of Larvalings over the last two months or so. Still no Nukor.

I think everything with a drop chance <10% should have a token / RNG breaker / pity system. i.e.: you earn tokens from completing a task, and a certain amount of those tokens can be traded for the thing that the task rewards. Exactly like you did with Lavos parts in Orphix Venom. 

Thanks!

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

The whole grind should be reworked like that. Exactly like Orphix Venom. Not just future content, but past content as well.

The Warframe of today has no place for the kind of grind that was very prominent in 2017 and earlier.

This should apply to all grind runs for parts to build weapons, frames and so on. It should apply to Kuva Weapons. Quest frames should be available to be re-farmed from their respective quests instead of Simaris, now that the game promotes building a second unit of many frames due to the Helminth room. The list goes on and on.

Newbies would appreciate and become more invested, imho.

[Teridax68]

I completely agree with the OP. Grind in Warframe has been an ongoing issue pretty much since its launch, and while grinding kind of is part of Warframe, the problem is that the grinding in Warframe is pretty seriously flawed: it feels awful to spend time in order to progress towards a certain goal, and end up no more ahead than before purely due to bad luck, yet this is the defining experience of most forms of grind in the game. We complete missions for a random chance at a reward, so when we get that reward it's good, but when we don't... well, we just wasted time. Because there are no real alternative way of obtaining those same rewards short of forking over a currency backed by real-world money, our only other option is to repeat that same bit of content and bang our heads against the wall until we either finally get what we want or give up. It's a grinding engine practically designed to induce burnout, as it generates constant frustration without any real hope of consistent progress, let alone a safety net against extreme streaks of bad luck.

Because of this, I think Warframe would do well to start integrating pity mechanics across all of its grinding: we already had this in Orphix Venom, where all of our random rewards could also be purchased via the currency we reliably obtained during the event. This made for a smooth progression system where we still took time to get what we wanted, but always felt like we were progressing reliably no matter what. This is something that could easily be extended to many current grinds by putting loot table rewards into their associated shops, e.g. putting Arbitration's mission arcanes, mods, etc. into the shop. As for regular missions, we probably need some sort of unified system for converting the byproducts of our grinding into the reward we want, rather than dozens upon dozens of token systems. Something like a Horadric Cube that let us put in some rewards in a drop table and change them into others could be neat.

Really, there is no excuse for Warframe not to have pity mechanics when those have been a standard in gaming since before its launch: Diablo 3 implemented pity legendaries not long after its launch, and pretty much every gacha game has a pity system when those games are literally about nothing other than grinding RNG loot endlessly. If those games can have pity systems, so can Warframe, and at this point it really should.

[OllyDG]

came in expecting the usual "game sucks theres rng" post, but i seriously agree with this. DE, if you're listening, please add an orphix venom style grind currency. thx <3

[LillyRaccune]

I've been grinding only casually, but some of the RNG really isn't random at all. Like the MacDonalds Monopoly Board scandal, the only way to win was if you went international and farmed different countries.

Here's my "monopoly board":

• Lavos - Alt Helmet x6, main bp x4, chassis x1, neuroptics x1. Zero systems.
• Khora - chassis x10, main bp x2, systems x2. Zero neuroptics.
• Hildryn - neuroptics x12, chassis x7. Zero systems.

Yes it would be nice if OP's suggestion was taken seriously. Even if I have to grind more times, it would be a "light at the end of the tunnel". lol

[Steel_Rook]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Because of this, I think Warframe would do well to start integrating pity mechanics across all of its grinding: we already had this in Orphix Venom, where all of our random rewards could also be purchased via the currency we reliably obtained during the event. This made for a smooth progression system where we still took time to get what we wanted, but always felt like we were progressing reliably no matter what. This is something that could easily be extended to many current grinds by putting loot table rewards into their associated shops, e.g. putting Arbitration's mission arcanes, mods, etc. into the shop. As for regular missions, we probably need some sort of unified system for converting the byproducts of our grinding into the reward we want, rather than dozens upon dozens of token systems. Something like a Horadric Cube that let us put in some rewards in a drop table and change them into others could be neat.

I tend to refer to this as a "deterministic fallback," but yes - agreed completely. Some system which allows us to burn unusable RNG drops into currency with which to then buy the item we want if RNG happens to be particularly unfavourable to us would be very, VERY much appreciated. I bring this up every time the issue comes up, but even the harshest, most exploitative "pride and accomplishment" lootboxes typically have such a deterministic fallback. You get credits for duplicate items, you can directly buy non-duplicate items for credits.

When I first started playing Warframe, I thought Baro was such a deterministic fallback system. After all, he would burn your random Void Relic RNG drops into Ducats, and then let you buy stuff from him for Ducats. Except... The items he sells are unique to him and not obtainable any other way - and also entirely different from the items you burn for his currency. In other words, he's just another vendor who just happens to use Prime Trash as currency. We need a vendor where we can sell junk from the same drop table as an item we want, then eventually just get the item after getting junk enough times.

Actually...

How about we use Simaris' Research Console for this. In that console, we can pick an item we want as a "research project." Progress in this project would be represented by a percentage bar. To fill this bar, we'd need to get drops from a drop table which contains that item. If the bar fills to 100%, we get the item. If we get the item from a drop, the research project auto-completes and rewards us with some Affinity, instead. No duplicate items. This accomplishes two goals. Firstly, it gives players a deterministic fallback in case RNG is keeps giving them junk. Secondly, it tasks players with actively picking the item they want to target for deterministic fallback, allowing for only one item at a time. This gives players a bit more agency and "the grind" a bit more strategy.

Let's give a specific example. Say a new player was unlucky enough to never get a Horner Strike mod. They go to Simaris and start a Hornet Strike Research. The mod can drop from a Cetus Bounty, Defense, Excavation, Excavation, Infested Salvage, Spy or Survival. The research starts at 0% and gains a number of percentage points equal to half the drop rate of the item or 10%, whichever is less. Because this player is still clearing the Star Chart, they go to Malva on Venus, where Hornet Strike has a 7.69% drop rate off Rotation B. The player stays for 20 minutes but doesn't get a Hornet Strike. They still get 3.85% progression on their Hornet Strike Research. The player is frustrated, so they go to Cetus and do a level 5-15 bounty for Hornet Strike. They do a full bounty but don't get a drop. They still get 7.52/2 = 3.76% progression towards their Hornet Strike research from Stage 2 and 30.56/2 = 15.48%, rounded down to the 10% cutoff progress from Stage 3. After the Cetus Bounty, the player's Research progress sits at 17.61%. Not a lot, but not bad. A few more of those runs and they'll get a Hornet Strike for sure... Although they'll probably get the drop before maxing out at 100% anyway.

I personally feel that that would be both fair to the player and also still "grindy" enough to placate DE's investors.

 

[OllyDG]

23 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Say a new player was unlucky enough to never get a Horner Strike mod

this actually happened to me lmoa, i never used pistols until like 500 hours in because hornet strike had never dropped for me

[Voltage]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Hikuro-93 said:

The whole grind should be reworked like that. Exactly like Orphix Venom. Not just future content, but past content as well.

The Warframe of today has no place for the kind of grind that was very prominent in 2017 and earlier.

This should apply to all grind runs for parts to build weapons, frames and so on. It should apply to Kuva Weapons. Quest frames should be available to be re-farmed from their respective quests instead of Simaris, now that the game promotes building a second unit of many frames due to the Helminth room. The list goes on and on.

Newbies would appreciate and become more invested, imho.

Making the game one big vendor sounds incredibly shallow and boring, especially when it will just shoehorn players into only bothering with the best token/minute ratio task.

The game having random drops is fine. I really don't see a problem with it as long as it's been tested and tuned prior to release and launches with cemented reward pacing. It's only irritating that new content is undermined a few weeks or a month or two after launch which basically tells everyone not to touch new content if they value their time.

[Drachnyn]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Voltage:

Making the game one big vendor sounds incredibly shallow and boring, especially when it will just shoehorn players into only bothering with the best token/minute ratio task.

On low drop chances we are already going for the highest chances, the way we play wouldnt change there. It would just make it so that people cant be f'd over by bad luck. You can actually properly earn something if it comes from tokens. There is nothing earned with getting a low drop chance thing, you just got lucky. That's not a skill.

vor 11 Minuten schrieb Voltage:

The game having random drops is fine. I really don't see a problem with it as long as it's been tested and tuned prior to release and launches with cemented reward pacing.

Having random drops is fine, there needs to be a token system to keep variance in check.

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Voltage:

It's only irritating that new content is undermined a few weeks or a month or two after launch which basically tells everyone not to touch new content if they value their time.

Then DE should release something that respects your time and is good from the start. This arguement should never in any case be used to keep a bad system bad. DE has repeatedly released rewards and systems with a very reserved way of balancing. They are planning to fail just so they can forever feel safe from releasing something broken. That's a S#&amp;&#036;ty way to design things.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Sevek7:

I tried to get a Magnetic damage Kuva Nukor. Killed a very large number of Larvalings over the last two months or so. Still no Nukor.

I think everything with a drop chance <10% should have a token / RNG breaker / pity system. i.e.: you earn tokens from completing a task, and a certain amount of those tokens can be traded for the thing that the task rewards. Exactly like you did with Lavos parts in Orphix Venom. 

Thanks!

yes ... the whole thing is too boring and without a booster I would never do that to myself. Especially since I can't find a group except from LFG every few hours!
and weapons are still ok ................ you have it fast enough. only "kuva ephemera" ??? I really wanted the one with skill like volt. and got it too. and I best forget that there are other kuva ephemeras.

[Teridax68]

31 minutes ago, Voltage said:

The game having random drops is fine. I really don't see a problem with it as long as it's been tested and tuned prior to release and launches with cemented reward pacing. It's only irritating that new content is undermined a few weeks or a month or two after launch which basically tells everyone not to touch new content if they value their time.

Testing and tuning only goes so far with random drops due to their very nature: an item tuned to drop after a certain number of runs on average will inevitably drop on the first run for some players, and only after a very large multiple of the average for others. The latter isn't desirable to players, because it feels horrible, but neither is it to DE, because it makes players burn out and complain. This is why most other games that heavily rely on RNG rewards have inbuilt safety nets that guarantee rewards after a certain number of tries, because past a certain point it's not worth padding the game any further if it puts players on the verge of quitting.

2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

How about we use Simaris' Research Console for this. In that console, we can pick an item we want as a "research project." Progress in this project would be represented by a percentage bar. To fill this bar, we'd need to get drops from a drop table which contains that item. If the bar fills to 100%, we get the item. If we get the item from a drop, the research project auto-completes and rewards us with some Affinity, instead. No duplicate items. This accomplishes two goals. Firstly, it gives players a deterministic fallback in case RNG is keeps giving them junk. Secondly, it tasks players with actively picking the item they want to target for deterministic fallback, allowing for only one item at a time. This gives players a bit more agency and "the grind" a bit more strategy.

I like this idea. It lets us set ourselves towards a goal and declare an intent to obtain an item, which means we get to set our own fallback option when hunting down something specific. It won't impact anyone just playing the game regularly, but would help those on the hunt for individual mods, arcanes, etc.

[Robolaser]

There will always be many things each and every player won't be able to obtain by pure luck, or perseverance (i mean, realistically)

This obviously is strongly incentivizing to either buy it in the ingame store, or from another player. That's the whole point.

Sure it could be seen as taking advantage of some people's frustration management issues, but DE is a business first and foremost.

Anything that could allow to completely bypass "bad luck" probably won't ever be implemented gamewide.

[Steel_Rook]

3 hours ago, OllyDG said:

this actually happened to me lmoa, i never used pistols until like 500 hours in because hornet strike had never dropped for me

It happened to me, as well :) I don't recall how long it took, but at one point I took stock of my mods and realised I didn't have a "basic damage mod" for Pistols. Only had a Flawed version. Spent quite a while grinding out one Interception mission on Jupiter, I think, trying to get it. I've not had that issue with any other base damage mods, excluding Primed Point Blank.

 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

I like this idea. It lets us set ourselves towards a goal and declare an intent to obtain an item, which means we get to set our own fallback option when hunting down something specific. It won't impact anyone just playing the game regularly, but would help those on the hunt for individual mods, arcanes, etc.

Right :) It turns the fallback option into a personal project. It also avoids turning the whole game into one giant unified vendor because the player is limited to just one project at a time. We can't passively amass currency as we play and just buy all the items we're after, nor can we buy newly-added items from subsequent patches as those projects would need to be started from scratch. Personally, I feel that's a good way to give players some more agency and an RNG safety net without significantly impacting DE's precious grind.

Drop rate conversion into project progression might need to be looked into, of course. I'm looking at setting the research project required runs to roughly double the "expected" metric as calculated on the Wiki. That way, players can plan ahead and set their own goals, starting a project for the item they expect to be the hardest to get and making passive fallback progress towards it.

I would personally be pretty happy with this system for one simple reason - every failed roll at least brings me a bit closer to my goal. I might not have gotten the item I wanted, but I'm that much closer to eventually getting it for sure.

 

*edit*
Oh, and before I forget - the best part about my proposal is that it can work for practically anything in the game, as research projects can be generated automatically directly from a trawl of the game's drop tables. When starting a project, the game can dynamically generate a list of activities and percentage progress for each activity, and even directly tell the player about it in the research screen (like how Colour Research tells us what enemies to hunt). Best of all, the player still limited to just the events that drop the item and still required to actually take part in said events, so the gameplay loop isn't circumvented.

[(PSN)sister-hawk]

8 hours ago, Voltage said:

Making the game one big vendor sounds incredibly shallow and boring, especially when it will just shoehorn players into only bothering with the best token/minute ratio task.

The game having random drops is fine. I really don't see a problem with it as long as it's been tested and tuned prior to release and launches with cemented reward pacing. It's only irritating that new content is undermined a few weeks or a month or two after launch which basically tells everyone not to touch new content if they value their time.

There’s one in every crowd 🙄

[LuckyCharm]

Honestly with how the game used to be where you could get most frames relatively easy, and needed to grind out mods was how I liked it. It gave reason and excitement to going out and getting things. Being held back by rng from that latest frame or weapon is a major buzzkill when you farm for many many runs and still not get the part you need. 

Personally I wouldnt want a token system, but I would like frames to be moved to more accessible places that dont require huge grind walls, and have mods worth farming for put in their place instead. Especially with how cookie cutter builds work on pretty much everything it'd be nice for a mod overhaul 

[OmegaVoid]

21 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

some of the RNG really isn't random at all

Am I being pernickety if I point out that random distribution is normally uneven, until it's averaged over the very long term? (I do hope your luck improves, though.)

17 hours ago, Robolaser said:

There will always be many things each and every player won't be able to obtain by pure luck, or perseverance (i mean, realistically)

This obviously is strongly incentivizing to either buy it in the ingame store, or from another player. That's the whole point.

Doesn't work that way for drops which aren't tradeable, though. And nobody payin' Market Plat for a Warframe 🤪. Jus' sayin'.