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low level void fissures need some major rework


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you'll have to excuse any hostility i express when starting this topic, just got done with that completely rigged lith fissure on Venus, 4, 20min runs and no one got a single relic because its horribly stacked against the player

first and foremost, lith survivals need serious work done to them, not only does the super low enemy density make it a nightmare to crack cabbages, their corruption rate is lower than chances of getting killed by a lantern shark (obviously an exaggeration)

for example that fissure run from earlier, in 4 runs of 20 minutes thats 4 rotations each, in total thats 16 rotations.... do you know how much void essence we got?.....24, 24 out of 4 runs.... while this is a bit uncommon, its actually far worse on that new corpus map set, where enemy spawn rates and spawn areas are super small and glitchier than a gen 1 Pokémon game, where the average essence amount we get is about 20 per 20 minute run, using the best tactics we can, all in the same room, trying to mainly kill corrupted enemies, and yet that still doesn't work

now im not saying this is deliberate in anyway, but i am saying there wouldn't be much incentive for DE to change it, after all it stimulates the oh so wonderful player run economy with no regulation that never has any problems at all, totally no one scalping people for their entire paycheck so they can have a riven that is a G-roll now but won't be after the next riven stat shifts
{thats a Yellowstone super volcano sized seething rant for another time though, probably be the last thing i ever post though]

even just increasing enemy density by 50% would help a massive amount and if you combine that by increasing corruption rate by 2 times it would fix the problem almost entirely

edit: forgot i cut our builds and setup for these runs, i ran inaros, meanwhile my team mates ran nekros prime, titania prime, and loki prime, none of us where nuke frames and even when waiting by chatting in the middle of the room almost no enemies corrupted, and barely any spawned and that was the problem in all 4 runs

Edited by (XBOX)Voltren Xytech
accidentally cut important information from the first draft
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while in low level is better to wait for enemies to turn corrupt, people just blindly go nuking. i don't do survival fissures so i don't have much idea but during exterminate mission, idiots with their nuke frames like gauss will run far away until extraction, completing the mission and then waste another 3-4 minutes waiting for enemy spawn which most of the time will not happen.

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Nothing about the mode needs to be changed at all. Quit bringing nuke frames and nuke weapons so the enemy has a chance to corrupt before you kill them. You don't even have to leave the spawn area, let them come to you.

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Spawn rates aren't an issue with Lith survivals but rather an issue with survival missions themselves. As spawn rates in survivals in general have always had issues and just increasing the frequency of enemies being corrupted doesn't help much if too few enemies get corrupted every time.

But it is an issue that is entirely avoidable by players simply by waiting for enemies to become corrupted first. Even if you increase spawn rates and corruption frequency you would still encounter the exact same issues with overly aggressive map nuking. And Lith missions can't be made to compensate for these types of players without compromising them for players who should be in their level ranges to begin with.

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I'd rather see them actually fix Excavation spawn rates for fissures honestly.

Even when not nuking there's a lot of waiting for fissures to corrupt things, real pacebreaker.

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I know how you feel and I give you a pretty simple fix: don't kill enemies too fast and for gods sake stay together in a certain area.

The amount of times I've had teammates kill stuff when they aren't corrupted just makes me annoyed, they're low level.. literally slap on a 90+ shield recharge and they do practically no damage. 2nd point, please... please please stay together, it's so much harder to get a good amount of enemies corrupted let alone in good volume when you have 4 players tossed across random points in the map. Let them funnel in and just kinda face tank them a lil, you can kill some off that are bugging you but really, just let them build up and when a fissure opens you'll get a good amount of corrupted to wipe out. I do agree they need to buff up enemy spawns a lil in fissures.. don't know why they seemingly spawn less in fissures but seriously we need more reactant.

On another note, a real complaint of mine is please stop making me join fissures that are halfway finished DE. It's so annoying joining a game just to see my teammates with 6 reactant already and then I simply don't have enough time to crack a relic.

 

't

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I fully agree with OP, i have the same issue with fissure survival. It's a shame DE take the time to re design corpus ships but do nothing about spawn rates. Same can be said for orb vallas but that's for another discussion. I actually like survival as a game mode but its hard when most people you play with have not much of an idea on ´ enemies corrupting ´ are how traces drop. I dont really find its an issue on grineer missions ,ive just found corpus spawn rates to be awful on new larger maps. 

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It's like no one here read what OP wrote, because said explicty "we were in one room, waiting for corrupted, killing just corrupted". Low level missions have a lower enemy density on top of the low density of the regulsr startchart. Steel path fissures would be a very nice addition to avoid this kind of situations due the high density there.

Edited by vanaukas
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50 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Nothing about the mode needs to be changed at all. Quit bringing nuke frames and nuke weapons so the enemy has a chance to corrupt before you kill them. You don't even have to leave the spawn area, let them come to you.

Yeah, because sitting around waiting on enemies to become corrupted is super fun and engaging. God forbid we try to improve something...

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I've been saying that the new corpus tile set has terrible spawn rates since day one. The tiles are too big. You get spawns in the room you're in but the adjacent rooms that normally spawn enemies are too far away so the enemy numbers never really go up. Then there are rooms that have like 6 different levels for enemies to spawn on. You're all over the place jumping around killing enemies that spawn in packs of 3 but there are never enough of them. So damn annoying. Solo play just compounds these problems. 

I absolutely hate the reworked corpus tile sets. They look great and would be cool for a PvP game but they are fn awful to play on. 

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3 minutes ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Yeah, because sitting around waiting on enemies to become corrupted is super fun and engaging

I don't necessarily disagree but it's low level enemies that your unranked taxon could probably kill, low level survival, especially fissure isn't that fun or engaging. I see your point though, they need to make it to where we aren't waiting on our delivery of sacrificial enemies for the reactant god.

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9 minutes ago, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

I don't necessarily disagree but it's low level enemies that your unranked taxon could probably kill, low level survival, especially fissure isn't that fun or engaging. I see your point though, they need to make it to where we aren't waiting on our delivery of sacrificial enemies for the reactant god.

In exterminate you can demolish everything in your path with reckless abandon and have all the reactant you need after a couple of rooms, but in survival you have to go out of your way not to kill enemies so you can wait on them to become corrupted. It’s just silly.

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)Voltren Xytech:

you'll have to excuse any hostility i express when starting this topic, just got done with that completely rigged lith fissure on Venus, 4, 20min runs and no one got a single relic because its horribly stacked against the player

first and foremost, lith survivals need serious work done to them, not only does the super low enemy density make it a nightmare to crack cabbages, their corruption rate is lower than chances of getting killed by a lantern shark (obviously an exaggeration)

for example that fissure run from earlier, in 4 runs of 20 minutes thats 4 rotations each, in total thats 16 rotations.... do you know how much void essence we got?.....24, 24 out of 4 runs.... while this is a bit uncommon, its actually far worse on that new corpus map set, where enemy spawn rates and spawn areas are super small and glitchier than a gen 1 Pokémon game, where the average essence amount we get is about 20 per 20 minute run, using the best tactics we can, all in the same room, trying to mainly kill corrupted enemies, and yet that still doesn't work

now im not saying this is deliberate in anyway, but i am saying there wouldn't be much incentive for DE to change it, after all it stimulates the oh so wonderful player run economy with no regulation that never has any problems at all, totally no one scalping people for their entire paycheck so they can have a riven that is a G-roll now but won't be after the next riven stat shifts
{thats a Yellowstone super volcano sized seething rant for another time though, probably be the last thing i ever post though]

even just increasing enemy density by 50% would help a massive amount and if you combine that by increasing corruption rate by 2 times it would fix the problem almost entirely

I agree!
the missions are also for beginners. not everyone has useful mods and cannot collect them so quickly. Also, none of them run / move as fast as the average player.

it must be ensured that even beginners can ALWAYS unlock their keys. At AFK, of course, you can't do anything. But otherwise I don't see any disadvantages.

this can be solved in different ways:

  1. for lith you need a minimum of fissures.
  2. or make number of required fissures dependent on mr. and then you can see something like 2/2 or 3/3 next to the names of the players for example.
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People are going to tell you "just wait for them to corrupt first."

The issue is that with certain missions, like defense or survival, you can't really just ignore enemies until they corrupt because you either have to keep them off the defense target or you have to kill them to keep life support up.  

The other issue is that it's just a stupid mechanic.  Make the mission harder.  Put in weird "void" modifiers on them.  Do whatever, just stop making my relic opening entirely dependent on RNG drops from RNG enemy spawns.  I did the damn mission, open my damn relic.

Not to mention when the game bugs out and just refuses to spawn more enemies in missions like Sabotage or Capture, so you're left sitting at 5/10 reactant and can't do a damn thing about it but abort or take 10 times as long.  

I'm also like 75% sure that reactant drop rate, as well as enemy spawn and therefor corrupted spawn are tied to host/client connection.  So when one person has a laggy connection you get less spawns and less drops.  I've been in many endless missions (especially survival.) where we were straight shat upon by the reactant drops, then the laggy person DC'd and suddenly there was a reasonable amount of reactant so long as no one was hard nuking.

The entire system is stupid and is implemented very poorly and needs a massive overhaul.  I'd rather deal with random sortie/nightmare-style conditions in every single fissure than have to put up with the reactant system.  It's been an annoyance for 2,500 hours.

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3 hours ago, (XBOX)Voltren Xytech said:

you'll have to excuse any hostility i express when starting this topic

No. We don't. There's no reason for you to be hostile. Stop killing enemies so quickly. Wait for storms to pop up to change enemies.

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29 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:


The issue is that with certain missions, like defense or survival, you can't really just ignore enemies until they corrupt because you either have to keep them off the defense target or you have to kill them to keep life support up.  
 

Not true. 

The low level enemies are no real threat to the objective--as long as you're watching it. That last bit is key. Don't leave the objective. Don't be That Guy. 

Enemies that do make it that far should be eliminated, but you shouldn't be going out of your way to seek them out just because of the low corruption rate relative to kill speeds. It should go without saying that bringing mass kill 'frames (or anything AoE) is counterproductive, but we also know That Guy will do it anyway. Don't be afraid to clue the clueless in. Whether they pay attention or not is another issue. 

Survivals simply aren't that big of a deal. If it really bothers you just bring a desecrate Nekros and let events take their natural course. It also helps (a lot) if the team sticks together and hangs around the same O2 canister. That Guy will have an influence here, so don't be him. 

Sense a trend here? 

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26 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

No. We don't. There's no reason for you to be hostile. Stop killing enemies so quickly. Wait for storms to pop up to change enemies.

I agree there’s no need to be hostile, but don’t you see the problem with “stop killing enemies so quickly” in a Survival mission? The entire point of the game mode is to kill quickly and keep up life support. And sitting around waiting on enemies to change just stinks, it’s not fun.

It also makes no sense that it’s not consistent. I don’t have to stop killing enemies quickly in an exterminate, so why should I have to in a survival? Again, it’s just silly.

Personally I’d like to shoot things in a horde shooter, but hey that’s just me.

Edited by (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face
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24 minutes ago, Sloan441 said:

Not true. 

The low level enemies are no real threat to the objective--as long as you're watching it. That last bit is key. Don't leave the objective. Don't be That Guy. 

Enemies that do make it that far should be eliminated, but you shouldn't be going out of your way to seek them out just because of the low corruption rate relative to kill speeds. It should go without saying that bringing mass kill 'frames (or anything AoE) is counterproductive, but we also know That Guy will do it anyway. Don't be afraid to clue the clueless in. Whether they pay attention or not is another issue. 

Survivals simply aren't that big of a deal. If it really bothers you just bring a desecrate Nekros and let events take their natural course. It also helps (a lot) if the team sticks together and hangs around the same O2 canister. That Guy will have an influence here, so don't be him. 

Sense a trend here? 

You're being pretty condescending with that last bit there, like I'm too stupid to understand those concepts, but you're only reinforcing my point.

Watching the objective straight up means killing enemies that aren't corrupted, because it's not like there's some guaranteed chance that they'll corrupt before they reach the target.  In lower level fissures especially most of them probably won't.  You can't wait for those to corrupt.  That's literally the point I made.

Your points about not nuking also reinforce the idea that reactant is a stupid mechanic because you're not only dependent on RNG for the drops, but you're dependent on your squad to: 

  • Not nuke.  That's pretty funny.  Pubs not nuking if they have the ability to.  
  • Stay together and not screw up spawn.  Also funny.  Nearly every player in the game, from fresh faced, totally stock Excals to tricked out vets will wander off chasing red triangles instead of staying with the group.

My relic opening should not be dependent on pubs or even recruited players understanding the meta behind cracking relics.  Survivals can be especially rough not only because of players not staying together (and Nekros can only help with LS if you're killing enemies, many of which won't be corrupted.  Unless you're implying he helps with reactant.  He doesn't, if you weren't aware.) but because of the spawn issues that happen with client/host lag.  I've specifically tested this with people that I have a bad connection with.  You get less spawn if anyone has a bad connection.  I've been in a squad with all competent players who understand the mechanics and were waiting for corrupted enemies to spawn (to the detriment of our life support levels.) and still not cracked a relic because of spawn and corruption issues that I firmly believe were due to connection issues.  Many times in a row.  Yet I can get into a squad with a bunch of casuals that just nuke everything but all have a good connection to each other and we have 10 reactant within 3 minutes of a 5 minute rotation. 

There are mechanical issues that create problems with these fissures.  From things they've said about their own netcode and testing they've said is coming up, they pretty much implied that Xbox has more connection issues with their code that they've been waiting to fix, so there's a chance you're not seeing the same issues because of a different netcode for PC.

Regardless, it's still a stupid, pointless, RNG mechanic and it needs to go.

Edited by (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan
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Another big issue I recall with survival fissures is just how utterly broken they can become if players spread out.

I can't count the number of times I've had to remind people not to wander more than 1-2 rooms away because it spreads the spawns too thin for them to be corrupted properly.

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23 minutes ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

I don’t have to stop killing enemies quickly in an exterminate, so why should I have to in a survival?

If everything dropped reactant like they drop reactant in an exterminate, no one would ever complain about this again.  But if everything dropped reactant like they do in an exterminate there'd be no reason to even have a reactant mechanic, and that alone is enough reason to just flat out remove it.

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9 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

You're being pretty condescending with that last bit there, like I'm too stupid to understand those concepts, but you're only reinforcing my point.
 

Wasn't really directed at you. It was directed at your point and to those it might concern. 

Not that That Guy will ever pay any attention to such things, since you'll see it over and over and over again. 

Nevertheless, if you want this sort of mission to go more smoothly, my points still stand. 

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Just now, Sloan441 said:

my points still stand

They don't though, and the fact that you aren't addressing, but rather dismissing my counter points is just further proof that you were being directly condescending to me and that I just need to hit ignore on you.

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Make the mission harder

so hard that your nuke players take enough time to kill the enemies. Sure. Just, ermm, how will this affect the starting players with MR1 and their bratons who are trying to crack their lith relics?

The issue is always high level players going into a Lith fissure and killing everything in less than a second. Even if they shoot them, the guns are so OP for the mission level, they all die with a single shot. This isn't a problem - high level players shoudl already know that to work a lith fissure and crack the relic, they need to take it real easy. This applies to all the mission types - defence, interception, even mobile defence! I've been in missions and seen some players run around killing everything to the point where they stopped spawning. Which is a bummer when you only have 8 reactant. there's a simple answer to it though, stop killing everything like a top level player and work the mission like a lower level one. God help you if you actually have to attempt to play the mission and not try to speed through it in 1 minute flat for the rewards.

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