Shields mods and Toxin

[Vortex]

I'm the kind of player that always try to play off meta builds, and i can say that shield mods are a waste of slots, and this is odd.

All warframes work well with health and armor, just put Vitality + arcane guardian and if you want even more damage reduction you can put adaptation and you are fine to go no matter the situtation, also, you are blessed with Rage/Hunter Adrenaline and your infinite energy.

Now you can select any shield based Warframe, put Redirection + Arcane Aegis + Adaptation which is mandatory for high level content, ok, then you face any toxic unit and surprise! you die instantly without knowing what happened.

Its hard to take shield mods seriously, actually is better to have low shield to enjoy the shield gating instead of build shields, its way better to just build health with armor than trying to make shield viable.

I think that toxin shouldn't go through the players' shield, the shield is already weak enough, it shouldn't have such a heavy drawback.

Also, shields are the WORST thing for Kavats and Kubrows, they can't benefit from adaptation, and when you build shield you can't carry vitality or armor so your pet will be always downed.

Currently there is no situation where shields are better than life, even for hildryn it is better to use life with armor.

 

I am creating this discussion because I am tired of dying instantly to toxin, currently building shields kills the player instead of protecting.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

21 minutes ago, Vortex said:

I'm the kind of player that always try to play off meta builds, and i can say that shield mods are a waste of slots, and this is odd.

All warframes work well with health and armor, just put Vitality + arcane guardian and if you want even more damage reduction you can put adaptation and you are fine to go no matter the situtation, also, you are blessed with Rage/Hunter Adrenaline and your infinite energy.

Now you can select any shield based Warframe, put Redirection + Arcane Aegis + Adaptation which is mandatory for high level content, ok, then you face any toxic unit and surprise! you die instantly without knowing what happened.

Its hard to take shield mods seriously, actually is better to have low shield to enjoy the shield gating instead of build shields, its way better to just build health with armor than trying to make shield viable.

I think that toxin shouldn't go through the players' shield, the shield is already weak enough, it shouldn't have such a heavy drawback.

Currently there is no situation where shields are better than life, even for hildryn it is better to use life with armor.

 

I am creating this discussion because I am tired of dying instantly to toxin, currently building shields kills the player instead of protecting.

Toxin resistance is a thing.

[Vortex]

43 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Toxin resistance is a thing.

No, it isn't, 15% will not save you from nothing.

[Drasiel]

14 minutes ago, Vortex said:

No, it isn't, 15% will not save you from nothing.

they are probably referring to arcane resistance that gives you 105% resistance to toxin at max rank

[Uhkretor]

1 hour ago, Vortex said:

I'm the kind of player that always try to play off meta builds, and i can say that shield mods are a waste of slots, and this is odd.

All warframes work well with health and armor, just put Vitality + arcane guardian and if you want even more damage reduction you can put adaptation and you are fine to go no matter the situtation, also, you are blessed with Rage/Hunter Adrenaline and your infinite energy.

Now you can select any shield based Warframe, put Redirection + Arcane Aegis + Adaptation which is mandatory for high level content, ok, then you face any toxic unit and surprise! you die instantly without knowing what happened.

Its hard to take shield mods seriously, actually is better to have low shield to enjoy the shield gating instead of build shields, its way better to just build health with armor than trying to make shield viable.

I think that toxin shouldn't go through the players' shield, the shield is already weak enough, it shouldn't have such a heavy drawback.

Currently there is no situation where shields are better than life, even for hildryn it is better to use life with armor.

 

I am creating this discussion because I am tired of dying instantly to toxin, currently building shields kills the player instead of protecting.

People and their entitled view of being above the rules and. whenever that doesn't happen. demanding rules to not apply to them.

 

This leads me to believe that you have absolutely no idea of why the shield are there, to begin with, less alone their purpose.

1 hour ago, Vortex said:

I think that toxin shouldn't go through the players' shield

Yes, it should. Its really the main purpose of it, as DE already explained before.

And if that isn't enough, use the Toxin Resistance aura on top of it as every tiny bit of resistance helps. Discard Steel Charge already.

21 minutes ago, Vortex said:

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Toxin resistance is a thing.

No, it isn't, 15% will not save you.

Let me rephrase what he meant -> Arcane Resistance is a thing.

1 hour ago, Vortex said:

I am creating this discussion because I am tired of dying instantly to toxin, currently building shields kills the player instead of protecting.

A player that fully understands the purpose of shields knows better than to die from Toxin.

 

There are no lack of tools to avoid dying from Toxin, starting with you.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

7 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

they are probably referring to arcane resistance that gives you 105% resistance to toxin at max rank

Any toxin resistance - mod, arcane, adaptation. It all helps.

[Drasiel]

28 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Any toxin resistance - mod, arcane, adaptation. It all helps.

eh I'd argue that the toxin resistance aura is only barely better than nothing, but that's more to do with it being an aura and assuming you are 4 stacking to get any real performance from them. 15% toxin resistance won't do much at the levels that wipe out 1000 health in one go, 60% would though.

[Vortex]

2 hours ago, Drasiel said:

they are probably referring to arcane resistance that gives you 105% resistance to toxin at max rank

Would be great if isn't for procs only ><

[bubbabenali]

Antitoxin? gives 45% toxic resistance. And against the procs I usualy use Rapid Resilence

[ShortCat]

16 hours ago, Vortex said:

I am creating this discussion because I am tired of dying instantly to toxin, currently building shields kills the player instead of protecting.

Is there a problem that toxin damage bypasses shields? On the enemy side - yes. On the player side - no.

Number of enemies who can deal Toxin damage in the entire game can be counted on 1 hand. If you are not paying attention, you will find yourself on the ground. 

[Vortex]

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

Is there a problem that toxin damage bypasses shields? On the enemy side - yes. On the player side - no.

Number of enemies who can deal Toxin damage in the entire game can be counted on 1 hand. If you are not paying attention, you will find yourself on the ground. 

There are plenty, infested from deimos, normal infested and corrupted represent way more than just "1 hand" count, also, toxin damage on our hands are strong until you fight steel path and eximus units.

Anyway, Toxin shouldn't do the work against shield, this is what magnetism are supposed to do.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

Toxin shouldn't bypass shields except on status proc. Or make the arcane 102%RD and not 102% status resistance.

[Birdframe_Prime]

To be fair, you're late to this little party.

Since Shield Gating, at least the Warframe version, was brought in people have noted that it's the mechanics of the shield, not the value of the shield, that matters.

The only frames that even care about the actual value of shields are Harrow (who scales the Duration of his 2, not the Strength, off the amount of shields sacrificed), and Hildryn, who uses shields as her energy pool.

Frames that make decent Shield Tanks are ones that can restore their shields quickly, not ones that have massive values of it. Harrow can easily do this, Hildryn too, Mag quickly gains into her Overshield just from using her 3 to restore her shields and her 4 to then gain bonus ones, Gauss is amazing due to how often you cast to activate functions like the Augur set, his Kinetic Plating making him very tanky in the right places, and because his Passive Battery giving him both Recharge Speed and Recharge Delay speed, meaning that his shields come back incredibly quickly while using Redline.

But it's funny, because people often ignore how health doesn't regen like shields, and so they neglect a lot of the healing methods that are in the game, such as gear, arcanes, the Operators, melee mods... it's interesting to me.

So the logical result is that you mod in Health as a safety net. You rely on Shields and Shield Gating to reduce any incoming damage, but there will be a time when it doesn't work, so having enough Health and Damage Reduction, means you won't die in those specific times. Having a healing function always helps too, I personally like the Magus Repair, because I can pop out, my frame is invulnerable, I'm invulnerable as I crouch, and my Operator heals up any Warframe in four or five ticks.

But then...

You have to consider the extended situation; there's one damage type that bypasses our shields.

What are the sources of that damage type?

There are only a few that you will encounter in regular play; Enemies are the Crawler/Lobber Crawler, the Mutalist Osprey, the Toxic Ancient, the Venomous Eximus and the Nox. There are also the Ghouls, which are less common because they only appear in one place. Now the Mutalist Osprey is likely the most dangerous single unit, because of the gas clouds... which are telegraphed, last a short duration, and you can easily avoid if you're paying attention. The Toxic Ancient and Venomous Eximus units are next, because they grant Toxin damage to all their allies, making them priority targets and you should always kill them first. The Crawlers... who really even notices them? The Nox only has Toxin on death, as his main weapon deals Corrosive, it's the field he leaves behind that you can avoid. And the same with the Ghouls, their toxin damage is the radial burst when they die.

Of these there's kind of an obvious trend, right?

You don't go into the big noxious cloud of toxin damage? And you kill priority targets first?

I mean... if you're modding for a bit of health and DR anyway, what's even the problem here?

Sure, if you round a corner right into a Toxic Ancient's roar, that's bad. But that happens to even some of the tanky health-based frames.

My point is...

Just use Shield frames appropriately.

If you're going to a map where you know that you're going to get lots of Ancients, Eximus and Ospreys? Maybe consider modding or playing a little differently, because you know there's a source of damage that can actually affect you.

[syl42]

I would be fine if shieldgating had a duration based on the amount of shield, from 300ms to 1sec max, based on the amount of shield (for example at 1000 shield, you have 1sec).

This would prevent people abusing Brief Respite with a Dragon Key.

As for toxin damage, I'm fine not using the same warframe for all content. I usually bring the warframe most suitable for the content I'm about to do. If I can't handle infested content (which is roughly 1/3 or less of the content), I should bring a health based warframe.

[Drasiel]

5 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Is there a problem that toxin damage bypasses shields? On the enemy side - yes. On the player side - no.

Number of enemies who can deal Toxin damage in the entire game can be counted on 1 hand. If you are not paying attention, you will find yourself on the ground. 

 

4 hours ago, Vortex said:

There are plenty, infested from deimos, normal infested and corrupted represent way more than just "1 hand" count, also, toxin damage on our hands are strong until you fight steel path and eximus units.

Anyway, Toxin shouldn't do the work against shield, this is what magnetism are supposed to do.

There are 9 units that can deal toxin damage and 4 boss/miniboss enemies 

Off the top of my head I think 5 of them are grineer and only deal toxin damage on death. The rest are infested but the normal units aren't really the big problem they are fairly uncommon even when swarming and everyone except one of the crawlers is pretty noticeable. The real problem is toxic ancients giving every unit near them toxin damage. 

[Vortex]

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

To be fair, you're late to this little party.

Since Shield Gating, at least the Warframe version, was brought in people have noted that it's the mechanics of the shield, not the value of the shield, that matters.

The only frames that even care about the actual value of shields are Harrow (who scales the Duration of his 2, not the Strength, off the amount of shields sacrificed), and Hildryn, who uses shields as her energy pool.

Frames that make decent Shield Tanks are ones that can restore their shields quickly, not ones that have massive values of it. Harrow can easily do this, Hildryn too, Mag quickly gains into her Overshield just from using her 3 to restore her shields and her 4 to then gain bonus ones, Gauss is amazing due to how often you cast to activate functions like the Augur set, his Kinetic Plating making him very tanky in the right places, and because his Passive Battery giving him both Recharge Speed and Recharge Delay speed, meaning that his shields come back incredibly quickly while using Redline.

But it's funny, because people often ignore how health doesn't regen like shields, and so they neglect a lot of the healing methods that are in the game, such as gear, arcanes, the Operators, melee mods... it's interesting to me.

So the logical result is that you mod in Health as a safety net. You rely on Shields and Shield Gating to reduce any incoming damage, but there will be a time when it doesn't work, so having enough Health and Damage Reduction, means you won't die in those specific times. Having a healing function always helps too, I personally like the Magus Repair, because I can pop out, my frame is invulnerable, I'm invulnerable as I crouch, and my Operator heals up any Warframe in four or five ticks.

But then...

You have to consider the extended situation; there's one damage type that bypasses our shields.

What are the sources of that damage type?

There are only a few that you will encounter in regular play; Enemies are the Crawler/Lobber Crawler, the Mutalist Osprey, the Toxic Ancient, the Venomous Eximus and the Nox. There are also the Ghouls, which are less common because they only appear in one place. Now the Mutalist Osprey is likely the most dangerous single unit, because of the gas clouds... which are telegraphed, last a short duration, and you can easily avoid if you're paying attention. The Toxic Ancient and Venomous Eximus units are next, because they grant Toxin damage to all their allies, making them priority targets and you should always kill them first. The Crawlers... who really even notices them? The Nox only has Toxin on death, as his main weapon deals Corrosive, it's the field he leaves behind that you can avoid. And the same with the Ghouls, their toxin damage is the radial burst when they die.

Of these there's kind of an obvious trend, right?

You don't go into the big noxious cloud of toxin damage? And you kill priority targets first?

I mean... if you're modding for a bit of health and DR anyway, what's even the problem here?

Sure, if you round a corner right into a Toxic Ancient's roar, that's bad. But that happens to even some of the tanky health-based frames.

My point is...

Just use Shield frames appropriately.

If you're going to a map where you know that you're going to get lots of Ancients, Eximus and Ospreys? Maybe consider modding or playing a little differently, because you know there's a source of damage that can actually affect you.

I got it, but what's the point of using shields when building health + armor give you way more benefits without taking the risk of being one shoted?

I could agree about the regeneration of shield, but actually we have way more ways to regen health than shield, even your companion can instantly heal you 100% by just attacking the enemy once.

I really don't see the benefit of using shield mods in any situation, you can run health build without arcane grace but you can't run shield without aegis for example, shields don't take any advantage over health and if you choose the health path you can still enjoy shield gating without any diference.

Actually i'm running health on everything because is safer, cheaper (slots) and i can play without worry about being insta killed by any kind of toxic damage (as everyone does).

I still believe that toxin shouldn't bypass shields, at least not the direct hit, this should be a feature for the proc only as @MonsterOfMyOwn stated above.

[syl42]

I'm not sure if it's cheaper to build health. You usually want some armor with it, that means a mod (Steel Fiber) and/or Arcane Guardian.

After the introduction of Shield Gating, the first character I played with shield was Volt. I use Redirection, but I guess I could drop it since I also use Pillage. And on some other frames, I build without Redirection (Gauss, Trinity). I use Rakta Dark Dagger with Gauss if I'm in trouble, but since he's quite fast with a lot of CC, I'm doing fine.

I'm not doing level 9999+ SE missions, just regular Steel Path, and it works fine. If you use Adaptation and have a way to replenish your shield, it's fine.

[Yamazuki]

6 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I mean... if you're modding for a bit of health and DR anyway, what's even the problem here?

If it's SP, since that's the only place I can think of where someone would die to toxin damage in a single hit, some HP and DR isn't enough to prevent dying. You would have to abuse immortality/stealth to avoid 1 shots, or permanent aoe cc to prevent any enemy from dealing damage.

It's also not as if DE has an issue with making toxin not bypass shields, they already made toxin not bypass shields against an enemy, as they are aware bypassing shields via toxin makes them useless. It's also weird they nerfed gas/slash in this regard and left toxin, despite one of the reasons for changing shields was to make corpus not as trivial, but you could give them a trillion shields, and they still would be useless due to toxin anyways.

For players, toxin 1 shots also defeat the purpose of why shield gate was even added to begin with.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The Toxic Ancient and Venomous Eximus units are next, because they grant Toxin damage to all their allies,

Only Toxic Ancients give toxin damage to allies. Venomous eximus don’t give allies toxin damage.

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The Nox only has Toxin on death, as his main weapon deals Corrosive, it's the field he leaves behind that you can avoid.

Nox’s goo gun does Impact and Toxin, not Corrosive.

[PhiThagRaid]

2 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

If it's SP, since that's the only place I can think of where someone would die to toxin damage in a single hit, some HP and DR isn't enough to prevent dying. You would have to abuse immortality/stealth to avoid 1 shots, or permanent aoe cc to prevent any enemy from dealing damage.

It's also not as if DE has an issue with making toxin not bypass shields, they already made toxin not bypass shields against an enemy, as they are aware bypassing shields via toxin makes them useless. It's also weird they nerfed gas/slash in this regard and left toxin, despite one of the reasons for changing shields was to make corpus not as trivial, but you could give them a trillion shields, and they still would be useless due to toxin anyways.

For players, toxin 1 shots also defeat the purpose of why shield gate was even added to begin with.

When I started SP my Gauss would get 1 shot by toxin clouds, adding Adaptation made them do nothing to him. So, yes it is enough to prevent you from dying, no need to abuse anything.

Toxin does bypass shields on enemies, the change was that slash doesn't do that anymore.

As a person who mainly runs Gauss, toxin is basically the only dangerous damage type, but all the damage sources can be avoided unlike the way all other damage types are afflicted. Eg. you can't dodge IPS attacks from enemy guns if they are hitscan weapons.

[Vortex]

12 hours ago, PhiThagRaid said:

As a person who mainly runs Gauss, toxin is basically the only dangerous damage type, but all the damage sources can be avoided unlike the way all other damage types are afflicted. Eg. you can't dodge IPS attacks from enemy guns if they are hitscan weapons.

Unless you find a toxic ancient that instantly shot their hook killing you instantly, i can avoid any kind of toxin damage by placing an ancient specter, but with that i even need to use shields, making shield useless, again.

I still believe that toxin shouldn't bypass shields, if you face any kind of toxin unit on steel path you can die instantly.

15 hours ago, syl42 said:

I'm not sure if it's cheaper to build health. You usually want some armor with it, that means a mod (Steel Fiber) and/or Arcane Guardian.

You can work with Vitality + Arcane Guardian only, you have plenty healing sources and we will get another one with Sevagoth.

But for shields, you need at least Redirection + Arcane Aegis + Adaptation to work, you don't have another shield sources but the hildryn skill.

And the worst part is that your pet will be squishy with shields as they don't benefit from your adaptation or the regen from aegis, and the pet itself don't have any kind of damage reduction to work with shield.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

Toxic ancient grappling hook damage scales with level, i remember being 1HKO by a lvl 250ish ancient with a wisp >2000HP (yes sometimes you have to be on ground... to use melee and with parasitic eximus you can't spam your 2nd or 3rd).

Over 2k damage on a single hit with a really efficient autoaim that bypass shield is a bit too much, as appart from HP meatshield, permanent invisibility or invincibility you'll just die. And meatshield will still die instantly too past a given enemy lvl.

[Birdframe_Prime]

17 hours ago, Vortex said:

I got it, but what's the point of using shields when building health + armor give you way more benefits without taking the risk of being one shoted?

Uhhh... there isn't one? My entire point was agreeing with the topic and saying that you're really late to this because the whole discussion came up and was pointed out at great length when Shield Gating was introduced?

There hasn't been any change to the system since it was introduced, DE have made zero comments on the efficacy of it, and nowadays people have just accepted that the only two times to mod for Shields is early game, where the EHP actually works thanks to the lower base damage of all enemies, and on Hildryn where it's an Energy pool.

Every other frame relies on the mechanics of shield gating, not the numbers.

[Vortex]

22 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Uhhh... there isn't one? My entire point was agreeing with the topic and saying that you're really late to this because the whole discussion came up and was pointed out at great length when Shield Gating was introduced?

There hasn't been any change to the system since it was introduced, DE have made zero comments on the efficacy of it, and nowadays people have just accepted that the only two times to mod for Shields is early game, where the EHP actually works thanks to the lower base damage of all enemies, and on Hildryn where it's an Energy pool.

Every other frame relies on the mechanics of shield gating, not the numbers.

This is sad.

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, Vortex said:

This is sad.

It is.

But it's also the direction DE have gone since the original update to the damage system that put 'armour ignore' functions onto Status instead of the direct damage types, left the players to counter direct health damage, only gave Health a functional damage reduction method through Armour (which still got ignored by Bleed)...

Every change DE has made has basically chosen to go the route of 'mod health, and only use shields for their mechanics' since 2013.