Dev Workshop: Corpus Proxima & The New Railjack

[-AncientWarrior-]

On 2021-03-09 at 9:50 PM, RS219 said:

Remember how that was viable until DE decided to nerf archguns a second time because "Noooooo you're not playing the way we want you to"?

You know this is most probably the worst thing about DE's attitude to its player base.  Forcing the playerbase to play the game a certain way..why, just why .. let us play this great game the way WE want to play it!.. We all arent the same, dont put us in the same catagory of "play WF this way only"...  lol not that it will change anyway, but worth saying!

[CyberneticSusurrus]

11 hours ago, Djw176 said:

I do think it's wild that the fanbase almost universally agreed Railjack was in a bad place and wasn't very well done up until DE said they're gonna change it and suddenly people act like it's perfect sacrosanct.

Criticising proposed changes does not equate to saying that Railjack is perfect and should not be changed.

Many of the criticisms are paired with an understanding that certain aspects of Railjack would in fact benefit from a bit of work.
The disagreement comes in when some of the proposals break aspects people currently enjoy, and/or appear to cause further problems instead of correcting issues.

For a personal example:
I am very much opposed to the Grid/Avionics changes, and I really think the Flux Energy decision is beyond a bad idea.
I think the basic concept of the Plexus is not in itself a bad idea, but I hate that it is going to be afflicted with Forma and Polarities.
(We have far too many systems in the game already hungry for Forma, and Polarities murder build diversity.)
I have mixed feelings on some of the Intrinsics rework, but that seems a relatively minor issue in the grand scheme of things; those seem easier to tweak further down the line.
I actually really like the Railjack internal structure rework, and I like almost all of the general functionality tweaks, along with the expansion into Corpus and so on; that's all great stuff.

That said, you did make me realise that I was neglecting to actually point out the parts I like.
Which is important, so thanks for that reminder.

[wizardeiges]

Why not just let us use endo to upgrade the plexus? Pretty silly we could just play before to upgrade the grid but now will have to actively grind and grind and grind and reforma and grind again and reforma again and grind and grind and grind and reforma again and grind and grind and grind to get back to where we were.


Having polarity slots is also a issue for people who liked to use different avionics. Having polarity slots means a locked build. You're only limiting players on what they can use by making it go from hey fit whatever to you better forma this and stick to a strict build that having polarity slots will lock it to.

Having the freedom to experiment with the grid and a lack of polarity slots was amazing. Why remove that? to just push forma regrinding? that's disappointing. You took something great and are just making it another restrictive play only one build system.

That complaint aside on a ridiculous backstep of a change,I like everything else. I'm looking forward to the railjack changes so I can more easily play solo and with my clanmates.

[ShadeOhNiner]

  

I have seen some of these things said by many people by this point, but I do want to put my own opinion out there as well.

1: Piloting 6 seems a bit sub-par (In my opinion... This may just be me feeling like this). Piloting 6 gives a (small) chance to avoid an enemy boarding party from entering the ship if you are hit by a ramsled. This is not only useless if you do not get hit in the first place (and we shouldn't be if we are paying attention with the new mobility you guys are adding [thank for that by the way]), but impairs our ability to farm enemy crews since each boarding party we attempt to allow on the ship has a chance to just be erased rather than killed (which means no crew loot, only loot from the ramsled). I don't really know what would be a good replacement for it, but I do not think it should stay this way (although I am fine with it being changed sometime after the update is launched.).

2: Gunnery 10 needs fixing. Gunnery 10 is being changed to not only make the forced aim time longer, but will add a heat cost as well. I think most people will want to avoid this one just because it is not only being forced on them, but also gives a heat penalty. I, personally, would be fine with the extra heat cost if they made it a toggle rather than permanently on (so you can turn on auto-aim, but incur the heat penalty). I believe just making it a toggle would be quite helpful, and I have even seen a really good recommendation for making the auto-aim less jarring (I'll quote it if I find it), although I don't know how hard it would be to code with how things are now.

Here is that quote by the way:

12 hours ago, squirrel_killer- said:

I feel two changes need to happen here. One is accessibility, the other is a buff.

For accessibility, this thing forcing you to jerk around makes many, not myself but others, motion sick, and this really needs to be addressed, as this alone makes many people unable to go into gunnery aim mode without being made ill.

The next thing is, this is just kind of an underwhelming ability. I feel like it needs to be buffed, and adding a cost to a non-optional thing isn't great either.

To fix both of these I feel this should work more like the Aliens vs. Predator (2010) game's Smartgun, where rather than giving a reticle that you move and moving the camera with it, it draws a block on the screen and the reticle moves around and auto-aims at anything in that space, while the camera stays static to avoid motion sickness. Have this activated by unlocking a "fourth ability" ability at Gunnery 10. The cost of this ability, rather than energy, could be a toggle that inflicts a series of heat based debuffs, increased heat cost and reduced cooldown rate in exchange for aim-bot and adding a homing property to the projectiles.

Even if the drawbacks were double the heat cost and half the cooldown rate, effectively cutting the amount of "ammo" you'd have while this ability was active in half, it would still be an insanely powerful ability that could be treated as a "No Skill, Just Kill" power fantasy where you hit the ability then hold down fire and every bullet finds its way to an attacking fighter shredding swarms rapidly.

Another set of drawbacks could be a mild increase in heat cost, but also a slow passive heat gain when active with a short activation animation, meaning there is a period where you cannot fire during activation and you can't just sit in such a mode the whole time.

I fully believe an "auto-aim" type power up is fitting for Gunny 10, but it should be more powerful than what is currently in place, and shouldn't be an active detriment if you have the wrong weapons equipped due to the buggy nature of the lead indictors, forcing you to always play as host to ensure the right guns so that it functions "correctly" while having to accept a debuff on something you can't reliably control, and shouldn't be basically designed to cause motion sickness in those who are vulnerable to it.

3: Plexus. There is a lot of things I don't like here... While I do like the idea of having more starting capacity (60+aura [lets assume 10?] is way better than most of the reactors we have outside T3, not to mention the Aura replaces the ninth mod slot, so we don't need to worry about the mod cost there or the cost of battle/tactical mods), but I worry that changing it from the grid system (which, while it was intimidating to me at first, was quite cool and enjoyably different in my opinion) to the normal modding system that takes away from the captain's vision of how their ship should be and avionic/mod interchangeability (due to adding polarities in the mix). Not only does this make it where the captain has to deal with the stats of their ship changing on the fly as crew join/leave, but it means the crew pidgin-hole themselves into certain rolls (possibly semi-permanently depending on how they end up having to forma for the mods they need)... Worse, if two crew have, say, Tunguska related builds, that means one will have to do something else they may not be modded for (I already get sucked into operating the big-gun when no-one else can/will, I don't want my mods to relegate me to either only do that role without going back to drydock to change mods [assuming I can even fit mods for another role on due to whatever polarities I have]), but it means that you (may) lose out on some crew interchangeability due to some being modded for particular roles (again, going back to the being worse at other roles than someone else without returning to dock and swapping gear.) Maybe I am wrong, and the upgrades to railjack equipment that are happening will make the mods less meaningful, but even if that is the case the captain will have no idea what to expect from the crew's stats if they are operating in pubs rather than knowing full well what their railjack was capable of in the old system without worrying what the crew had (outside the gunnery rank needed to operate the big-gun/make certain stuff in the forge.). The last thing I want to address, the mod conversion itself. If they use the usual endo/creds for mods of their rarity/rank, we are going to end up not only spending far FAR more endo than the dirac we used, but we now have to sink (probably millions of) credits into them (which, while some players have billions to screw around with, I cant say I am/have seen too many who do).  Er... sorry for the block of text here, this section ended up longer and probably less clear than I thought it would be. 😬

4: Changes to energy. I agree with many people on here, why do the frames need to be turned into batteries for the ship? Not only is this very strange (archwings and necramechs have their own energy, they are not tied to our frames), but this gives even further ability spam potential to crews who decide to bring Hildryn or any high-energy frame with dispensary tagged on. I have not seen your system in action, but the way it sounds doesn't play out well in my head. You made all the other supplies separate for each tenno, why was flux replaced instead of just tagging it into this new system?

 

I am quite looking forward to some new game modes for railjack, and making Arcanes accessible somewhere other than Eidolons seems like it will be good for gamemode diversity. Just please consider some of the points people have been bringing up repeatedly. And for anyone who read this mess, critique would be appreciated.

[Mortico]

 

vor 39 Minuten schrieb ShadeOhNiner:

  

I have seen some of these things said by many people by this point, but I do want to put my own opinion out there as well.

1: Piloting 6 seems a bit sub-par (In my opinion... This may just be me feeling like this). Piloting 6 gives a (small) chance to avoid an enemy boarding party from entering the ship if you are hit by a ramsled. This is not only useless if you do not get hit in the first place (and we shouldn't be if we are paying attention with the new mobility you guys are adding [thank for that by the way]), but impairs our ability to farm enemy crews since each boarding party we attempt to allow on the ship has a chance to just be erased rather than killed (which means no crew loot, only loot from the ramsled). I don't really know what would be a good replacement for it, but I do not think it should stay this way (although I am fine with it being changed sometime after the update is launched.).

2: Gunnery 10 needs fixing. Gunnery 10 is being changed to not only make the forced aim time longer, but will add a heat cost as well. I think most people will want to avoid this one just because it is not only being forced on them, but also gives a heat penalty. I, personally, would be fine with the extra heat cost if they made it a toggle rather than permanently on (so you can turn on auto-aim, but incur the heat penalty). I believe just making it a toggle would be quite helpful, and I have even seen a really good recommendation for making the auto-aim less jarring (I'll quote it if I find it), although I don't know how hard it would be to code with how things are now.

Here is that quote by the way:

3: Plexus. There is a lot of things I don't like here... While I do like the idea of having more starting capacity (60+aura [lets assume 10?] is way better than most of the reactors we have outside T3, not to mention the Aura replaces the ninth mod slot, so we don't need to worry about the mod cost there or the cost of battle/tactical mods), but I worry that changing it from the grid system (which, while it was intimidating to me at first, was quite cool and enjoyably different in my opinion) to the normal modding system that takes away from the captain's vision of how their ship should be and avionic/mod interchangeability (due to adding polarities in the mix). Not only does this make it where the captain has to deal with the stats of their ship changing on the fly as crew join/leave, but it means the crew pidgin-hole themselves into certain rolls (possibly semi-permanently depending on how they end up having to forma for the mods they need)... Worse, if two crew have, say, Tunguska related builds, that means one will have to do something else they may not be modded for (I already get sucked into operating the big-gun when no-one else can/will, I don't want my mods to relegate me to either only do that role without going back to drydock to change mods [assuming I can even fit mods for another role on due to whatever polarities I have]), but it means that you (may) lose out on some crew interchangeability due to some being modded for particular roles (again, going back to the being worse at other roles than someone else without returning to dock and swapping gear.) Maybe I am wrong, and the upgrades to railjack equipment that are happening will make the mods less meaningful, but even if that is the case the captain will have no idea what to expect from the crew's stats if they are operating in pubs rather than knowing full well what their railjack was capable of in the old system without worrying what the crew had (outside the gunnery rank needed to operate the big-gun/make certain stuff in the forge.). The last thing I want to address, the mod conversion itself. If they use the usual endo/creds for mods of their rarity/rank, we are going to end up not only spending far FAR more endo than the dirac we used, but we now have to sink (probably millions of) credits into them (which, while some players have billions to screw around with, I cant say I am/have seen too many who do).  Er... sorry for the block of text here, this section ended up longer and probably less clear than I thought it would be. 😬

4: Changes to energy. I agree with many people on here, why do the frames need to be turned into batteries for the ship? Not only is this very strange (archwings and necramechs have their own energy, they are not tied to our frames), but this gives even further ability spam potential to crews who decide to bring Hildryn or any high-energy frame with dispensary tagged on. I have not seen your system in action, but the way it sounds doesn't play out well in my head. You made all the other supplies separate for each tenno, why was flux replaced instead of just tagging it into this new system?

 

I am quite looking forward to some new game modes for railjack, and making Arcanes accessible somewhere other than Eidolons seems like it will be good for gamemode diversity. Just please consider some of the points people have been bringing up repeatedly. And for anyone who read this mess, critique would be appreciated.

Hey :)

why criticize you? You basically Said all the points I‘m worried about too.

Especially the energy change has critical Lore problems.....

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

On 2021-03-12 at 3:36 PM, Roland_Snow said:

what we currently have is far better, even from a UI perspective. No idea (other than forma sales) why it is being changed to the standard modding screen.

Well at least you and I agree that these changes are for greed/ignorance, not for player enhancement in any way and at the end of the day, it is downright baffling how DE missed the biggest problem with railjack and instead decided to fix things that werent broken

The biggest problem = Railjack is an isolated content island outside of the core gameplay loop

None of these changes do anything to fix that critical flaw

[Roland_Snow]

I do not see RJ as being different from the core game as a weakness. If anything seeing such diversity (with more to come with new mission nodes and factions over time) as refreshing to the usual content.

I loved playing RJ from the moment it launched (plus a few hours because slow internet to download the launch patch) and still play on occasion. As mentioned more than a few times throughout, the only reason I slowed down how much I played was because everything I still needed to get was outside of RJ. If more regular star chart evergreen rewards were moved to RJ I would probably play RJ about as much as regular star chart if not more so.

The vast majority of this update seems like the right move to me. My last gripes with it are fairly minor now. I was initially very against the plexus but assuming similar avionics mod costs after the swap (rest of assumptions in previous math posts are based on current presented info in-game and from Rebb's posts here) then endgame players will be in a very similar effective max capacity with newer players in a far better state for that. The Warframe energy dependency seems odd to say the least considering nothing else we use draws energy from our Warframes (not even melee weapons anymore).

To be honest what I will probably miss the most about Avionics is the current UI more than anything else about it, and there are many features about it to love.

Mostly I think I am just excited to see where 29.10 and 30.0 lead for the future of RJ content since multi-faction crossfires would feel super satisfying to participate in and newer mission types for POIs seem like they still have a lot of room to grow.

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

1 minute ago, Roland_Snow said:

I do not see RJ as being different from the core game as a weakness. If anything seeing such diversity (with more to come with new mission nodes and factions over time) as refreshing to the usual content.

I loved playing RJ from the moment it launched (plus a few hours because slow internet to download the launch patch) and still play on occasion. As mentioned more than a few times throughout, the only reason I slowed down how much I played was because everything I still needed to get was outside of RJ. If more regular star chart evergreen rewards were moved to RJ I would probably play RJ about as much as regular star chart if not more so.

The vast majority of this update seems like the right move to me. My last gripes with it are fairly minor now. I was initially very against the plexus but assuming similar avionics mod costs after the swap (rest of assumptions in previous math posts are based on current presented info in-game and from Rebb's posts here) then endgame players will be in a very similar effective max capacity with newer players in a far better state for that. The Warframe energy dependency seems odd to say the least considering nothing else we use draws energy from our Warframes (not even melee weapons anymore).

To be honest what I will probably miss the most about Avionics is the current UI more than anything else about it, and there are many features about it to love.

Mostly I think I am just excited to see where 29.10 and 30.0 lead for the future of RJ content since multi-faction crossfires would feel super satisfying to participate in and newer mission types for POIs seem like they still have a lot of room to grow.

Let me ask then, what point does Railjack serve?

How does it contribute to the core of warframe?

And if its needed, why is it isolated from regular missions? (ie why can we not fly from Fortuna to space to Cetus, as was shown in E3 2016?)

You loved railjack since launch, yet nobody else did, including the devs, which is why they are undoing everything Railjack was

Perhaps stockholm syndrome has set in as you "refresh the page every hour", but I suggest playing other games to broaden your perspective. Genshin Impact and Destiny 2 are good, Outriders comes later this month and the demo is out for free now

[Sled_]

Updating my previous "Cautiously optimistic but worried about energy" now that we have another FAQ and a few more pages of discussion.

Plexus Costs:
-I run the 130 (max possible) avionics reactor and just did the conversion to mod math. Based on the screenshots mods cost 1-3 more drain then the avionics (sentient scalpel actually costs 2 less), except for the tactical and battle mods which appear to not cost drain. All the single stat auras (maxima, anode) grant 11 drain and the new split aura (defense matrix) gives 7. Assuming that every mod has 2 more drain, I replace my now-aura avionics with like-drain mods (before), you use at least one of each polarity (which looks reasonable right now), and we are correct that the battle/tactical now cost zero I will be at 78/71 capacity in the new plexus. This means that a person should need, at maximum one Forma and much more likely zero to maintain status quo while now having the option to use forma to go beyond what we currently do. Given that (or at least assuming that) my reactor will be doing shiny new things instead of being in charge of avionics drain I am not opposed to this.

-More concerning to me is the potential credit cost to bring those mods to full. Even if our max avionics get converted into max mods and the dirac to endo drop conversion is sufficient any new player now has a whole new subset of mods to get credits for that is not in the current system. Will there be something to counteract this new grind? This could be more credit drops from the railjack missions, credit rewards for scraping wreckage or simply not needing credits for railjack mods.

-While there is apparently an appetite for a discussion on whether the mod system as a whole needs an overhaul (and how) I do not feel it is within the scope of this update for it to happen now. I reserve my comments on that discussion for when and if it happens in the future. 

 

Balance Changes:
-While nothing that has been said about the changes immediately jump out at me as bad it is incredibly hard to judge these things from text descriptions alone. I am ok trying these changes raw but I would be less apprehensive if this was put to a test cluster first.

 

One Big Warframe:
-While I took great pride in providing the best railjack I could for my clanmates and I am not certain splitting the mods up among the crew is going to help our particular setup it is probably for the best for two reasons. First is a person using sub-optimal mods will no longer be a no-sell for prospective crew. I enjoyed the sled and missiles over tether and void. If I forgot to swap back when going public I would watch people join and drop. Bringing your own kit means you will always have the tools you want. Second is that you can now build for your niche. I love archwing but would never run the archwing buff mods as doing so would actively handicap the rest of the crew. Now I can go full ham on my madness without hampering my crew.


Flux to Energy:
-In my previous post I glossed over the problem of newer players not having the infinite energy solutions that others do (primed flow, zenurik dash, unlimited pizza, etc). Making the forge also supply energy probably deals with that but I kinda glossed over it because it is overshadowed by the infinite energy problem. In the vacuum of testing it might be ok but once it hits public we are going to have the same flow breaking problems without the forge making energy. As long as the unlimited ammo buttons on the warframes exist and people can use those buttons on the railjack then people are going to be using them on the railjack. As long as the less resource intensive button is frame specific then that is the shell that is going to be used. Adding back the ship based "gain battle avionic ammo" function to the ship does not address the flow problems introduced by linking it to your ground combat frame. Necramechs don't feel they need to run off warframe energy, archwings don't feel they need to run off warframe energy, why make it so that railjack has to. Please leave the vehicle energy pools vehicle based.

[topgunLT1]

1 hour ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

Well at least you and I agree that these changes are for greed/ignorance, not for player enhancement in any way and at the end of the day, it is downright baffling how DE missed the biggest problem with railjack and instead decided to fix things that werent broken

The biggest problem = Railjack is an isolated content island outside of the core gameplay loop

None of these changes do anything to fix that critical flaw

The problem is that they divided update 30 into two, we are only getting half of the problems they are solving right now. This update 29 is nothing but a test to see how the new system works in live servers and also balance out the issue before they throw in update 30. Not to mention, Duvuri and New War is also in the works that should also tie in to this update based on that early Duvuri announcement trailer. I like what they are trying and that it'll take a long time to make it, especially when its not a paid dlc content like in destiny etc. The problem is that they are breaking down these updates into chunks to keep the player base active and keep the f2p money flowing while they do the major content development in the background; this is a no win situation for either side as it only slows down their own dev time, and also the players dont like to taste crumbs of the big cookie they want.

With all that said, I dont want to deviate this forum in other direction, so I'll also give a feedback on this warframe 3.0 update. 
#I dislike the use of Energy as a resource for Railjack. I only have 500-600 hrs of gametime in warframe, of this i had over 50hrs in Railjack. I was only able to do that cause Railjack's resources were isolated from the main game, meaning I can jump on it and farm it to level up Railjack. This new energy dependence means that I'll now need to take in only the best warframe I have with best mods to get the best out of the Railjack. Not to mention, endo will now also be used to update railjack buffs. You are overbearing one system (endo) into doing everything. I barely have them to upgrade my regular mods 😐

#thank you for removing the stamina bar. Railjack mobility was crucial for its survival and with the new added debuff threats, its good that the stamina bar is no longer restricting players from dodging enemies, which was the 1st problem i faced while upgrading Railjack in the beginning. This should definitely bring in a lot of players to try out the Railjack mode. 

#reduced ship size is good, but make that old interior model as an optional ship variant that can be collected, because there are no interior variants as of right now. 

#glad to see the railjack exclusive damage type removed. No game should increase the complexity of combat system by just duplicating and renaming the existing system. Repurpose it , but do not duplicate/rename it. 

 

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

1 hour ago, topgunLT1 said:

The problem is that they divided update 30 into two, we are only getting half of the problems they are solving right now. This update 29 is nothing but a test to see how the new system works in live servers and also balance out the issue before they throw in update 30. Not to mention, Duvuri and New War is also in the works that should also tie in to this update based on that early Duvuri announcement trailer. I like what they are trying and that it'll take a long time to make it, especially when its not a paid dlc content like in destiny etc. The problem is that they are breaking down these updates into chunks to keep the player base active and keep the f2p money flowing while they do the major content development in the background; this is a no win situation for either side as it only slows down their own dev time, and also the players dont like to taste crumbs of the big cookie they want.

With all that said, I dont want to deviate this forum in other direction, so I'll also give a feedback on this warframe 3.0 update. 
#I dislike the use of Energy as a resource for Railjack. I only have 500-600 hrs of gametime in warframe, of this i had over 50hrs in Railjack. I was only able to do that cause Railjack's resources were isolated from the main game, meaning I can jump on it and farm it to level up Railjack. This new energy dependence means that I'll now need to take in only the best warframe I have with best mods to get the best out of the Railjack. Not to mention, endo will now also be used to update railjack buffs. You are overbearing one system (endo) into doing everything. I barely have them to upgrade my regular mods 😐

#thank you for removing the stamina bar. Railjack mobility was crucial for its survival and with the new added debuff threats, its good that the stamina bar is no longer restricting players from dodging enemies, which was the 1st problem i faced while upgrading Railjack in the beginning. This should definitely bring in a lot of players to try out the Railjack mode. 

#reduced ship size is good, but make that old interior model as an optional ship variant that can be collected, because there are no interior variants as of right now. 

#glad to see the railjack exclusive damage type removed. No game should increase the complexity of combat system by just duplicating and renaming the existing system. Repurpose it , but do not duplicate/rename it. 

 

Really well written for your first post on the forums, I hope to see more of your feedback going forward

I just want what DE promised at E3 2016 - Railjack that lets you fly between planets/missions of regular warframe and connects the open world zones

Duviri and New War most likely are on the backburner, we havent even gotten Pets 2.0 or Corpus Liches yet despite them being done last year

The 3rd spider orb raid is likely DE's next big update since that is done and literally has been sitting in Orb Vallis for 4 years now

Warframe energy instead of Flux means everyone will run Helminth Protea for energy orbs plus arcane energize and have to periodically stop to spam energy pizzas

DE removed stamina bars from Warframes, Archwing, and now Railjack. Why do Mechs still have it?

If DE shrinks the ship, it is not a cosmetic change, it will completely change the hitbox and geometry. They cant let us keep the old version as a skin, nor would they. Liset interior changes set the precedent for this, no going back.

Simplifying damage types means a huge nerf to damage. Instead of chem which could be combined with electric and heat and it caused enemies to attack each other, chem will turn into toxin which combined with heat will create gas damage which is useless. Particle will no longer rupture enemy hulls, being turned into slash which does nothing to armored fighters. Simple = less combinations and less effective damage

Im MR 30 and over 4000 hours played. Some of these changes may look good to more casual/newer players, but they are all nerfs in disguise. 

Without putting Railjack into the core gameplay of Warframe, no matter how easy they make it, there will still be no reason to play it

Removing Gian Point means DE sees that mission as rewarding. Instead of buffing all missions to the Gian Point level, DE chooses to nerf it out of existence. 

[Graavarg]

Forma being central to the game is not in itself a problem. The problem is that the game has developed past one of the original intentions with forma, making a certain build (using "big" mods of a certain polarity) more powerful (by halving the mod space requirement) while at the same time limiting the use by increasing the mod space requirement for mod with other polarities.

All this comes pretty gdamn clearly across in the 50+ pages of feedback, the addition of yet another "forma sink" might even be the single most common negative feedback to the new railjack system. It is also the one thing that doesn't get any defenders, or even some positive response. However, I think it is important to understand that all this negative feedback has very little to do with the new railjack, it is a reaction to a part of Warframe that doesn't work all that well.

Crying about the economic side of forma is (in my opinion) ok while irrelevant at the same time. Sure, we all want more forma easier and cheaper, but at the same time none of us want DE/Warframe to go under and we have no real say, so basically we just have to trust DE anyway. Crying about it doesn't help, and claims that we are getting ripped off are pretty ridiculous. My personal view is that DE has quite a stellar record concerning "taking our money", compared to a lot of  other companies. If anything, our "need for power" is what is ripping us off, no need to blame DE for our psychological failings.

While every forma added to a weapon makes one polarity cheaper to use, it locks all the other polarities out. This really is a problem, since we not only end up with pretty much the same build on most weapons (of a type), we also end up with a huge amount of mods that are never used, because they are locked out from the "standard" builds due to their polarity.

There is a small change to the polarisation system that would help with this: if polarities were unlockable properties of mod slots, instead of mutually exclusive add-ons, we could unlock ("add") as many polarities as we would want for the same slot. This would allow us the freedom to select/build what and how we want. It wouldn't help with the "forma sink"-part, but that is basically an economical/psychological problem anyway. That the current polarity system forces us to limit the diversity of using mods and builds is, on the other hand, a structural problem. It affects our ability to utilize the potential in the game and thus also lessens our enjoyment.

I mean, how many times have you sat there with a forma ready for use, knowing that if you apply it you will get more power but also lock your warframe/weapon into a much more narrow usage category. A hundred times? A thousand? And re-forma'ing an already forma'ed slot is even worse.

Implementing such an "unlockable polarity"-function in the Plexus would be a very good way to test it, since we all will have just one (Plexus). And I am pretty damn sure that while there is a sizeable portion of the playerbase that doesn't like the idea of "another forma-sink", only a really small minority (if even that) would oppose the ability to freely add additional polarities to a mod slot.

[Cail]

I know it's probably not a big deal to a lot of players but could we get a marker for when crew ships have a squad mate on board? It'll show up when they are piloting, but as far as I could tell there has never been a way to tell when they are just boarded. It has led into a few situations where multiple people have boarded the same ship accidentally or a ship has been dome charged while someone was trying to hack the core to destroy it internally.

[ShadeOhNiner]

15 minutes ago, Cail said:

I know it's probably not a big deal to a lot of players but could we get a marker for when crew ships have a squad mate on board? It'll show up when they are piloting, but as far as I could tell there has never been a way to tell when they are just boarded. It has led into a few situations where multiple people have boarded the same ship accidentally or a ship has been dome charged while someone was trying to hack the core to destroy it internally.

It (should) show you when you are in archwing mode if someone has boarded a enemy crewship (puts a blue outline around the red marker)... but the strange thing is it does not give that info to the guy on the dome-gun or the pilot. Pretty sure it doesn't do so for the gunners in the side (soon to be ventral/dorsal) turrets either. perhaps this will be fixed in the upcoming update?

[smashedwookie]

14 minutes ago, Cail said:

I know it's probably not a big deal to a lot of players but could we get a marker for when crew ships have a squad mate on board? It'll show up when they are piloting, but as far as I could tell there has never been a way to tell when they are just boarded. It has led into a few situations where multiple people have boarded the same ship accidentally or a ship has been dome charged while someone was trying to hack the core to destroy it internally.

This should already be in, when someone is in an enemy ship, the ship will have a light blue circle around it when you target it.

[Cail]

6 minutes ago, ShadeOhNiner said:

It (should) show you when you are in archwing mode if someone has boarded a enemy crewship (puts a blue outline around the red marker)... but the strange thing is it does not give that info to the guy on the dome-gun or the pilot. Pretty sure it doesn't do so for the gunners in the side (soon to be ventral/dorsal) turrets either. perhaps this will be fixed in the upcoming update?

Ah see, if this is the case then yeah I never noticed since I'm always piloting and using the dome gun. Thanks for the clarification though!

[Dargadon]

В 08.03.2021 в 23:03, [DE]Rebecca сказал:

Warframe Energy, Round 2 FAQ.

Railjack energy, both in current and upcoming iterations, leaves very bland feeling. Why Reactors themselves do not passively generate energy just like Archwing do?

My suggestion about RJ Energy rework may be late, but still i'd like to share.

• Keep Flux energy away from Warframes.
• Add passive "Flux generation per second" stat to Reactors. Each model can have it's own distribution of total Flux and Flux generation.
• Forgable Flux consumables should increase passive energy generation for 10 seconds instead of, as today, just provide instant chunk of Flux.

[(XBOX)Diva LadySly]

Thanks so much for such a detailed and informative explanation of the new update. Excited to get started playing.

 

[(PSN)Chronox_05]

very excited for what this is going to bring, really looking forward to the new questline: call of the tempestarii.

youre doing a good job, no, a great job DE!

[smashedwookie]

5 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Forma being central to the game is not in itself a problem. The problem is that the game has developed past one of the original intentions with forma, making a certain build (using "big" mods of a certain polarity) more powerful (by halving the mod space requirement) while at the same time limiting the use by increasing the mod space requirement for mod with other polarities.

All this comes pretty gdamn clearly across in the 50+ pages of feedback, the addition of yet another "forma sink" might even be the single most common negative feedback to the new railjack system. It is also the one thing that doesn't get any defenders, or even some positive response. However, I think it is important to understand that all this negative feedback has very little to do with the new railjack, it is a reaction to a part of Warframe that doesn't work all that well.

Crying about the economic side of forma is (in my opinion) ok while irrelevant at the same time. Sure, we all want more forma easier and cheaper, but at the same time none of us want DE/Warframe to go under and we have no real say, so basically we just have to trust DE anyway. Crying about it doesn't help, and claims that we are getting ripped off are pretty ridiculous. My personal view is that DE has quite a stellar record concerning "taking our money", compared to a lot of  other companies. If anything, our "need for power" is what is ripping us off, no need to blame DE for our psychological failings.

While every forma added to a weapon makes one polarity cheaper to use, it locks all the other polarities out. This really is a problem, since we not only end up with pretty much the same build on most weapons (of a type), we also end up with a huge amount of mods that are never used, because they are locked out from the "standard" builds due to their polarity.

There is a small change to the polarisation system that would help with this: if polarities were unlockable properties of mod slots, instead of mutually exclusive add-ons, we could unlock ("add") as many polarities as we would want for the same slot. This would allow us the freedom to select/build what and how we want. It wouldn't help with the "forma sink"-part, but that is basically an economical/psychological problem anyway. That the current polarity system forces us to limit the diversity of using mods and builds is, on the other hand, a structural problem. It affects our ability to utilize the potential in the game and thus also lessens our enjoyment.

I mean, how many times have you sat there with a forma ready for use, knowing that if you apply it you will get more power but also lock your warframe/weapon into a much more narrow usage category. A hundred times? A thousand? And re-forma'ing an already forma'ed slot is even worse.

Implementing such an "unlockable polarity"-function in the Plexus would be a very good way to test it, since we all will have just one (Plexus). And I am pretty damn sure that while there is a sizeable portion of the playerbase that doesn't like the idea of "another forma-sink", only a really small minority (if even that) would oppose the ability to freely add additional polarities to a mod slot.

I think you pretty much nailed the reason why players are starting to see forma as a bad thing. Over the last 2 years Lich were released (5 forma sink for full mastery) necramech was released (5 forma sink for full mastery, maybe more for proper use) and now rail jack is about to be released as yet another forma sink. What more the Corpus Queenpin will be coming by the end of the years as yet another forma sink. Also not to forget that the Dev Stream mentioned something about wanting to work on the gun damage and that would result in lots of new mods.

This is what people are starting to get burned on. As you pointed out, forma in itself isn't all that bad. The problem come from the polarity limitation it creates, which makes build experimentation very hard when you are limited by all the polarities.

With the backlash this workshop get on the subject of forma,  DE should realize that it might be time for them to consider changing how forma polarity work across the game.

• Be it allowing us to add multiple polarity to a specific slot and use the right one if it was unlocked when we place a mod in.
• Or simply change forma to give universal polarity, well minus umbra. meaning All forma type give universal for the slots they affect, and Umbra could make the slot truly universal by adding the oh so rare polarity most build don't really require.

Yes that would be a big change, but ultimately this feel like it would benefit the game more than keeping on going with the current iteration of forma.

[Shemarria]

17 minutes ago, (XBOX)Diva LadySly said:

Thanks so much for such a detailed and informative explanation of the new update. Excited to get started playing.

 

 

3 minutes ago, (PSN)shadows_eye05 said:

very excited for what this is going to bring, really looking forward to the new questline: call of the tempestarii.

youre doing a good job, no, a great job DE!

What they're saying. 👍
ONLY nit pick... The energy thing; that's it.  I still would love the flux energy being well...FLUX and tied to the RJ's reactors.
Otherwise, I'm all for the changes since *waggles hand* the first UI and loadout screens for avionics were a mess for most laypeople (Being a Mechwarrior player back in the day Armored Core player up till it no longer was being published for PS2, and an ORIGINAL Elite player, it wasn't hard at all for me) and being all one colour?  Yeah: a lot of Tenno were confused & frustrated.

Also liking the fact our 'Jack's will be more streamlined.  
So yeah; bring on the Boxheads... Bring on the G'neer.  Heck, bring more Sentients!  The Sanguine Regis is ready.  😈

P.S.; will the EXTERIOR graphics mirror the changes in turret placement?  Re; Turret models on top and bottom mounts ala Mellenium Falcon, or still show up on the side mounts in Dry dock?  Just curious.

[(XBOX)DC COWBOY]

I've been trying to keep up on the forums and Reddit posts, but haven't seen an answer to the question of whether or not there will be resource reimbursement for already built and fused components / armaments based on the drop in resources to build them moving forward.  I think this happened from RJ 1.0 to RJ 2.0, but I don't want to assume the same here.  I REALLY want to upgrade my stuff but don't want to unnecessarily waste resources if we won't be refunded and the prices will drop.

[fakeplayerr]

Mostly good changes, but some of them just dont make sense as mentioned previously here and slightly tweaking old system would have been just fine.

1) Avionics to mods and dirac to endo. Converting all the dirac into endo, that is fine. Now, making them mods, which will cost way more than dirac upgrades, as modding requires also millions of credits. Looking at those screenshots, we already can see some Rank 10 mod which costs us 1,4 million credits and 40k endo or smth to max out.

2) Also mods and their capacity. Before with avionics we had reactor where T3 component can give us like 120 extra capacity. Now we only have 30 and requires some serious forma action + orokin catalyst probably. Give us base capacity of 60 or 90 or whatever that doesnt force us putting in another 8 forma. 

3) Biggest no-go imo - loss of Railjack energy! Just why? why? Does not make any sense. Operators have their own, frames have their own, archwings have their own and now this massive spaceship will run on tenno throwing energy pads under their feet! So silly. You guys mentioned numerous times, that you want diversity in this game etc - but this eventually ends with 4 people running hildryn or if you decide to ban him from railjack missions, then thats no good to players who enjoy playing with her etc. Other than that, we now have to run primed flow on every frame there, which again means less diversity in builds. Oh btw, railjack weapons can be forgotten then, as it is even easier to spam nuke abilites now than ever before.

In general, this and all this ammo sharing system is kinda off imo, I enjoyed having squad working within ship, forging all that stuff etc etc. Feels kinda weird that every tenno now carries dome charges and ordnance ammo in their napsacks when joining the mission, Those things should be on ships arsenal, lets be honest.

 

But still looking forward to it, lots of good stuff to be positive about.

[nebfab]

49 minutes ago, smashedwookie said:

I think you pretty much nailed the reason why players are starting to see forma as a bad thing. Over the last 2 years Lich were released (5 forma sink for full mastery) necramech was released (5 forma sink for full mastery, maybe more for proper use) and now rail jack is about to be released as yet another forma sink. What more the Corpus Queenpin will be coming by the end of the years as yet another forma sink. Also not to forget that the Dev Stream mentioned something about wanting to work on the gun damage and that would result in lots of new mods.

Yea. I stayed away from that whole "how many forma we will need for RJ?" argument, because I didn't really see Railjack needing some forma on its own as a big deal, and it may be anywhere from "none" to "a lot" depending on the exact meta no one knows yet.

But the way forma economy is heading is troubling, and the fact that resentment over it just boiled over because of something relatively vague and possibly insignificant, like railjack changes and not over a new bunch of lvl40 forma sinks doesn't mean it's not something worth thinking over.

 

[nebfab]

14 minutes ago, (XBOX)DC COWBOY said:

I've been trying to keep up on the forums and Reddit posts, but haven't seen an answer to the question of whether or not there will be resource reimbursement for already built and fused components / armaments based on the drop in resources to build them moving forward.  I think this happened from RJ 1.0 to RJ 2.0, but I don't want to assume the same here.  I REALLY want to upgrade my stuff but don't want to unnecessarily waste resources if we won't be refunded and the prices will drop.

Early adopter rewards are partly based on the number of wreckages you built and include resources, so, I guess they're meant to play that role (1.0 to 2.0 wasn't a straight refund either, IIRC, it was a similar tiered system, but I might misremember.)