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Repeating mistakes on AW and Railjack


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Let's start this by recalling ancient times where the aw HP and shield where warframe HP and shield multiplied by aw mods. This feature was removed because to the surprise of no one people just grabbed the highest raw EHP frame to play AW. 

And here we go again. Railjack energy is the warframe energy pool. Want to pilot with Inaros , well good luck using avionics with your rage build , better slap a unnecessary primed flow and  be ready for coffee breaks ( leave seat to do the zenurik dance or drop pizzas ). I guess I should just play Energizer bunny( volt prime ) instead to reduce the amount of coffee breaks.

Edited by keikogi
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hace 1 minuto, Teoarrk dijo:

Good luck running RJ with Lavos or Hildryn. I really wonder what the plan is with them.

+50s of cooldown and +1000 shields per abiity, I see it coming.

(its just a joke(maybe?))

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You should probably put this in the actual Workshop post. I don't expect this change to make it to Live, personally, as it's entirely too abusable and renders the Railjack energy system as perfunctory as the Warframe one.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

You should probably put this in the actual Workshop post. I don't expect this change to make it to Live, personally, as it's entirely too abusable and renders the Railjack energy system as perfunctory as the Warframe one.

Well it was anounced so I would expect it to go live even if it bites the dust latter. I also think they kind off conered themselves with the whole dome charges and misseles are now individual resources because you can´t expect the pilot to leave his seat to craft energy. 

About the whole energy system issues , I think it cuts deeper than that, it even goes as far as to destrup the railjack gameplay loop by introducing coffee breaks. It breakes both the flow and the imergion off the experience, like you are the middle off a fight need to cast a skill , you leave the pilot seat , drops the energy pizzas , wait a pulse and goes back to piloting. Like trty to imagine a captain off a ship stoping to drink coffe in the middle of fight. 

Edit: already added it there , thx for the reminder, just saw the youtube video an came here to scream into the void. 

Edited by keikogi
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1 minute ago, Teliko_Freedman said:

Wouldn't the Railjack Energy pool be based on each player's Railjack Avionics, When they enter any Piloting/Gunnery position?

No Rebeca mentions flow and energy pizzas on the video so I´m pretty sure it is the warframe energy pool

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1 hour ago, keikogi said:

About the whole energy system issues , I think it cuts deeper than that, it even goes as far as to destrup the railjack gameplay loop by introducing coffee breaks. It breakes both the flow and the imergion off the experience, like you are the middle off a fight need to cast a skill , you leave the pilot seat , drops the energy pizzas , wait a pulse and goes back to piloting. Like trty to imagine a captain off a ship stoping to drink coffe in the middle of fight. 

To be fair, that's how it's always been for me playing Railjack solo. But I get what you mean. You can still have other players drop Energy Restores for you. The video showed Rebecca gaining energy while in the Railjack seat and piloting the ship, as the Energy Restore pinged additional pulses. Honestly, this system CAN work. I just wish that energy capacity, efficiency and regeneration were handled by the Plexus, rather than the Warframe.

The current system is a bit like... You jump on the Turrets, and they use the damage buffs from your primary weapon. Not only is that a bit silly, it creates another "stat stick" issue. The current energy proposal encourages players to pick their Warframe energy not based on what they want to do WITH the Warframe, but purely based on how it interacts with Railjack. Which - as someone who relies heavily on Rage and a small energy pool - is annoying. Unless my Railjack taking damage to health would ALSO trigger rage on my Warframe, in which case... Eh?

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5 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

To be fair, that's how it's always been for me playing Railjack solo. But I get what you mean. You can still have other players drop Energy Restores for you. The video showed Rebecca gaining energy while in the Railjack seat and piloting the ship, as the Energy Restore pinged additional pulses. Honestly, this system CAN work.

Going by how well energy drops work I would bet agaist it. 

6 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

The current system is a bit like... You jump on the Turrets, and they use the damage buffs from your primary weapon. Not only is that a bit silly, it creates another "stat stick" issue. The current energy proposal encourages players to pick their Warframe energy not based on what they want to do WITH the Warframe, but purely based on how it interacts with Railjack. Which - as someone who relies heavily on Rage and a small energy pool - is annoying. Unless my Railjack taking damage to health would ALSO trigger rage on my Warframe, in which case... Eh?

Sounds even more weird if warfamre mods work on railjack , so stuff like rolling guard would work on railjack. Personally I would just split the things completely. 

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1 hour ago, keikogi said:

Sounds even more weird if warfamre mods work on railjack , so stuff like rolling guard would work on railjack. Personally I would just split the things completely. 

Agreed. Railjack energy really should be part of the Harness specific mods, rather than using Warframe mods. I'm fine with shifting more of Railjack progress to each individual player over the ship itself, but I don't want the stats of one item bleeding into the stats of another. We have enough Stat Stick issues already.

 

47 minutes ago, Vaml77 said:

I expect the worst for the future of railjack with the changes coming ...

Whereas I expect great things. Railjacks using Warframe energy in place of ship energy is pretty much the only real concern I have, along with potentially limiting Necramechs to Railjack missions only (as opposed to letting us use them anywhere on the Star Chart). Far as I'm concerned, Railjack needed a lot of these changes. They may not appeal to Early Adopters, but it's pretty clear by this point that the original vision of Railjack being Warframe Guns of Icarus is no longer on the table. I for one am perfectly happy about this, as I feel the proposed redesign is a much better fit for Warframe's pace.

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I do not understand why they didn't just apply the exact same rationale as all the other Railjack resources:
Provide an independent pool, instead of a shared one.

It didn't require anything else, and certainly not something as silly as making your warframe energy pool essential for Railjack crew roles.

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16 hours ago, keikogi said:

This feature was removed because to the surprise of no one people just grabbed the highest raw EHP frame to play AW

Smh

Its weird, they managed to make omni have its personal ammo pool, but not flux energy?

Maybe they felt it would be weird to give every player their own flux energy pool or something. Idk but I would have been cool with

- Cooldowns (not too long, not too short)

- Each turret having its own flux energy pool

- Host only one who can use flux

- Making a battery of some sort (like the cold and hot power cores you can carry in sabotage missions) that acts as a personal flux energy pool.

Idk why linking flux energy to warframe energy was the only idea they could come up with when every person who plays warframe knows warframes have different energy pools, meaning it could cause issues. 

That problem is seriously not something 1 could miss when you ask yourself "what problems could come out of using Warframe energy for flux energy?"

Like i know they might get rushed sometimes but thats just ridiculous, the ideas given above took 2 minutes to throw out. Take less than an hour to think about which of them is okay to pick or which comes with the least problems.

Repeating mistakes "

Ikr

Theres a few members at DE that dont know the game without question. 

Glad that theyre trying to be more open about running things over with all of us first. Helps us get rid of ideas like this 1 that can only be made by someone whos a bit new or doesnt pay much attention to what happens in Warframe....

Edited by (PSN)Frost_Nephilim
Better wording
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What have they done?

I'll go and look in disbelief later.

 

but first undertsand that the problem with revolite, flux energy etc was never a problem with the resources or mechanism for crafting and using it. The problem was 100% the lack of any instruction on what the heck it was and how to use it. As a RJ player, I always tell new guys about it, and then they go from "WTF is this" to "OMG this is really cool". Its that simple. The lack of a tutorial or basic information on how to operate your railjack is mind-numbingly bizarre.

 

And I bet, with all the changes they make to RJ. The one thing that will still be missing is any form of tutorial.

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7 minutes ago, gbjbaanb said:

but first undertsand that the problem with revolite, flux energy etc was never a problem with the resources or mechanism for crafting and using it.

The problem absolutely was the shared resource pool. I don't know if you've kept track, but I did. I saw thread after thread after thread of people asking "Can I ban people from using my Railjack energy?" and "Trolls are wasting my Railjack energy!" and "Only the host should be able to use energy." etc. Far as I'm concerned, there's no benefit to using a shared resource pool. However, that doesn't mean we can't still use the same personal resource pools.

Quite literally the only reason I can see for going with Warframe energy over Railjack energy is "Well, now the pilot will need to leave the seat!" Solution - let players craft resources for each other in the Forge. Problem solved. Yes, they would be using their own resources, but guess what - that's what Restores do now anyway. Someone else needs Energy but you're playing Lavos? Drop one of YOUR Energy Restores anyway. It's what a good team-mate ought to do.

 

11 minutes ago, gbjbaanb said:

As a RJ player, I always tell new guys about it, and then they go from "WTF is this" to "OMG this is really cool". Its that simple.

As a whale and early Railjack adopter, I was (and remain) the only one in my group of friends with a decent Railjack. I've introduced about 10 people to Railjack over the last year or so. I've not had a single one of them go "OMG this is really cool!" when introduced to the forge. Instead, reactions have varied between "Well, this is bad design." to "Well, this is dumb." "Cool story, bro." I'm sure SOME people like working the forges, but I've not run into any of them personally. If anything, I'm surprised they kept the Forge mechanic AT ALL in Railjack 3.0. Their original "Warframes of Icarus" design for Railjack as seen in 2019 was dead on arrival. Railjack 3.0 appears to be an attempt to turn Railjack INTO Warframe, so I really don't see the point in keeping a system which exists solely to justify the perfunctory role of the on-board engineer, whose only job thus far has been busywork created deliberately for them. The Forge is one of those systems.

Obviously, tutorial introductions would help Railjack, as they would help all of Warframe. I don't think tutorials can REPLACE the Railjack changes, however. That entire system came with so much listless baggage there for no reason beyond it was in other games that the best thing DE can do with it is take pruning shears to it.

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17 hours ago, keikogi said:

Let's start this by recalling ancient times where the aw HP and shield where warframe HP and shield multiplied by aw mods. This feature was removed because to the surprise of no one people just grabbed the highest raw EHP frame to play AW. 

And here we go again. Railjack energy is the warframe energy pool. Want to pilot with Inaros , well good luck using avionics with your rage build , better slap a unnecessary primed flow and  be ready for coffee breaks ( leave seat to do the zenurik dance or drop pizzas ). I guess I should just play Energizer bunny( volt prime ) instead to reduce the amount of coffee breaks.

 does that mean i can just use hyldrins shields to cast stuff in railjack ?

Edited by (NSW)Leafar
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1 hour ago, (NSW)Leafar said:

does that mean i can just use hyldrins shields to cast stuff in railjack ?

Edited 1 hour ago by (NSW)Leafar

I don't have faintest clue.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Leafar said:

wait now that i think about it ...isnt Railjack energy determined by the Engine of the railjack ? what will the engines do now ?

I suppose they were replaced by the new hull piece since they delth with avionics and and flux energy and both off these were scraped 

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I... don't get it. Separate Railjack Mods have been made, why not have Flux Energy Mods for the Railjack?

A lot of my Warframes don't use Energy Mods, so it's either gimp those builds for the sake of more RJ power, or gimp the Railjack.

Just... why? 😕

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On 2021-03-09 at 1:48 PM, Steel_Rook said:

when introduced to the forge

ah well, that's a fair comment. They tend to think the whole RJ experience is cool, not the stupid forges. Still, they could have solved all problems by making each player get a flux energy pool like they have with the revolite "ammo". I have however, never seen anyone use up all the flux energy unless its the pilot/host using it for its intended purpose. And a engineer role is a good thing - not everything has to be pewpew. And the engineer does also deal with the boarding parties or is the first out to the objective so its not all omni play.

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40 minutes ago, gbjbaanb said:

ah well, that's a fair comment. They tend to think the whole RJ experience is cool, not the stupid forges. Still, they could have solved all problems by making each player get a flux energy pool like they have with the revolite "ammo".

Agreed. Give players a separate Flux Capacity bar drawn from the Railjack's reactor. Then, when crafting more Flux Energy in the Forge, give players an energy-over-time buff rather than a direct energy increase. That way, a pilot can craft themselves, say, 5 minutes of energy-over-time and just stay at the controls until it expires. Additionally, let players craft resources for each other in the Forge and that takes care of that completely.

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I would like to know whose those ideas of linking the flow of railjack to the energy of warframes were ... this is beyond my comprehension. The flow energy of the railjack must belong to the railjack .... this change proposed by the plexus and flow in other words will only worsen the experience with the railjack.

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