Dev Workshop: Zephyr Revisit 2021 (Video Workshop)

[master_of_destiny]

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Hi, I'm Birdframe_Prime, the most active Zephyr Rework Thread presence on these Forums since 2015. I literally make it my job to project, imagine and request things to do with Zephyr. I do apologise that you were caught in this conversation without realising that.

Nice to meet you ^^ [/s]

The answer to the question was: 

  Reveal hidden contents

And as far as we've heard it's staying, DE said this is a buff to the one side, meaning that there still will be the other.

But the rest of my comment was a literal response to the rest of your comment.

For example, you went into why you consider the suck version existed before... when it was an outward ragdoll? I mean, you're the one trying to quibble over definitions. I just said that, in terms of Air Burst, it was always an outward blow instead of an inward suck, and the inward suck was the bit added the most recently. And you went onto a digression of how you don't count it as a 'suck' or a 'blow' because it was a ragdoll? I mean... that's just pure semantics. That's you actually quibbling.

Then you diverted even further into the mechanics of Tornado, in a conversation about Air Burst? Saying that you 'apparently had to outline it too', which is genuinely odd because it had no baring on the conversation. You tried to argue that the suck existed first because Tornado existed? Before Air Burst? The topic of the conversation being the order of suck vs blow on Airburst? Why then did you try to further your argument by including Tornado?

So I responded to the actual question by saying that in terms of the new additions, we're not losing the ragdoll area denial, we're gaining more control and can actually combo the functions. It's not imagination, this is a literal way to use one ability to help out another (not in a 'synergy' fashion, in just a basic complimentary fashion) that will exist in the update. I even commented on your point about 'area denial' to point out that the grouping function of these new updates is far better than basic area denial due to how Warframe enjoys a far smoother combat system on grouped enemies rather than on enemies pushed out of an area.

Honestly your response was riddled with condescension, tried to pull the 'I've played this frame a lot' card (which is why I felt it necessary to sarcastically introduce myself at the start of this comment), and this most recent response from you about me wanting to 'imagine things' just reeks of hypocrisy when you when off on tangents first.

I'm here for a good time because my favourite frame is getting buffed, so you can go boil your head if you're going to bring that kind of nonsense to the table.

 

Stop.

 

I asked a question.  You provided no answer.  You then introduced an "oh no, let me tell you the real truth" reply.  Stop.  Just stop.  Somebody else provided an answer, that you could not.  If you're so deeply defining yourself with a single component in a game, and still cannot answer a basic question without demonstrating ignorance....well, you've made an elegant demonstration of the contrary.

 

You'll excuse me, but this is a thread about a rework.  I'm not going to engage with you again, because the response has not been useful or moved things forward.  Hopefully you can understand this.  If not, do not be surprised when I don't respond.

[Drachnyn]

Am 9.3.2021 um 20:28 schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

Removed the hold-to-charge mechanic from the beginning, and instead made it so you can hold the ability at any time while in the air and it will toggle into hovering mode that holds you in flight while draining Energy every second. Hovering will now also allow you to move around instead of being fixed in place.

Is there really an energy cost necessary? A crit buff from the passive and a debuff to enemy accuracy does not exactly sound so op that it needs an energy drain with it. Evading melee enemies already is a non issue.

On top of that aerial melee is not quite as powerful as ground melee.

[master_of_destiny]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

There are cases where you'd want blow over suck?

...

 

 

Team play.  That said, most of the enemies are mooks....so it's an edge scenario.  

 

The point here is that not all enemies seem to be influenced by sucks.  I've seen more consistency that enemies have at least a slight stagger with the blow (looking at Noxes and the like).  If you can stagger enemies consistently, then significantly better but squishier frames can use their abilities.  This at least means she can be a consistent team player, because lord knows she doesn't have anything resembling consistent damage.  Paired with a DPS frame, this rework will make her reasonably viable as a Vauban style CC machine with a huge defense instead of Vauban's damage.  

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

3 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Ash has a (functional) 234% bonus for his passive

It’s a 87.5% bonus, ~134% bonus if you count the bugged version we currently have.

Using Loki isn’t a good barometer either, as his passive isn’t a damage increase.

[TARINunit9]

17 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

 ~134% bonus if you count the bugged version we currently have.

Yes. 100+134=234. And even if you wanna use the 134 additive version, that's pretty close to the potential 150 of Zephyr's upcoming

[IzzyTH-I51]

On 2021-03-09 at 3:45 PM, [DE]Momaw said:

Nekromast said:

Really liking the update! But what about her momentum when crashing against a wall with her 1? Would love if the momentum stops like Gauss 1 does

On 2021-03-09 at 3:45 PM, [DE]Momaw said:

Wish granted!

 

 

question about this, should it not also cause a dive bomb explosion when hitting walls and other surfaces that now cancel its momentum, even more similar to Guass?

 

[IzzyTH-I51]

double posted, weirdly didn't get a notification of successful posting.

[Leqesai]

4 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

Is there really an energy cost necessary? A crit buff from the passive and a debuff to enemy accuracy does not exactly sound so op that it needs an energy drain with it. Evading melee enemies already is a non issue.

On top of that aerial melee is not quite as powerful as ground melee.

Yes there should be an energy cost to staying in the air indefinitely. Zephyr being in the air is pretty much god-mode. 

[Drachnyn]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Leqesai:

Yes there should be an energy cost to staying in the air indefinitely. Zephyr being in the air is pretty much god-mode. 

But that's just what her 3 does, which already has an energy cost. Like I said, not getting hit by melee enemies is already very easy.

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

I asked a question.  You provided no answer.

Ah, so the problem is two-fold; 1. You can't read

8 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

If not, do not be surprised when I don't respond.

And 2. You got called on your BS in a public Forum and your ego's smarting.

As you said, you're not going to respond, that saves the rest of this thread having to watch you whine about it further.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

8 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Yes. 100+134=234. And even if you wanna use the 134 additive version, that's pretty close to the potential 150 of Zephyr's upcoming

I was pointing out that saying a 234% bonus is incorrect terminology. His slash procs do 234% of a normal slash proc’s damage, which is a 134% bonus. 
Additionally, Ash’s (bugged) 134% bonus is still multiplicative to base, not additive. So by that logic, Zephyr’s bonus would also be multiplicative to base, not additive.

[RAZORLIGHT]

This is the kind of rework we need for several frames, can't wait to try it.

 

Haven't been excited for an update for such a long time now, please don't mess it up, this is your last chance in my case.

[IR4_IR4]

What about Anchored Glide ? This mod will disable also new crit chance secondary pasive?

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 minute ago, IR4_IR4 said:

What about Anchored Glide ? This mod will disable also new crit chance secondary pasive?

Good question, but I don't think so. I think DE will keep it to just the 'low gravity' aspect, and likely reword the mod during the update.

For example, when they updated Titania they gave her a passive of 'gain health when casting an ability', this is not disabled by Ironclad Flight, which disables the passive Vacuum she has during Razorwing.

So DE can disable passive effects specifically when the frame technically has two.

[IR4_IR4]

hace 23 minutos, Birdframe_Prime dijo:

Good question, but I don't think so. I think DE will keep it to just the 'low gravity' aspect, and likely reword the mod during the update.

For example, when they updated Titania they gave her a passive of 'gain health when casting an ability', this is not disabled by Ironclad Flight, which disables the passive Vacuum she has during Razorwing.

So DE can disable passive effects specifically when the frame technically has two.

Your reasoning is logical, I think the same as you, it should happen as with Titania, but ... who knows :)

[Azamagon]

Overall, this looks fantastic! Especially the changes to her 2nd and 4th!

However, I still feel that her 1st needs... something extra, some utility. It has 3 features and an augment, yet most of it still feels slightly underwhelming. Lemme explain:

1. Her new Hover - This one looks nice. Sure, it could be faster to move around in, but it offers something rather unique.
2. The Tailwind dash - Basicly, a fancy and more boosted bullet jump. Due to its niche useability, it feels empty.
3. The Divebomb - Basicly, a more damaging melee slam. It too feels quite empty. Sure, it has the niche of QUICKLY forcing Zephyr down to the ground, unlike melee slams (since they can have a rather big delay, due to how they can react to her floaty passive)
4. The Augment - Feels like a clunky "repair" to the Divebomb's damage-longevity. Sure, it might be powerful, but why go through the tedium of all this, when one has melee?

And I'd not even suggest much, just tiny tidbits - although I feel the augment could use a full on revamp. For example:

1. Give her Tailwind dash a status-cleanse, or leaving briefly lingering slowing winds in her wake, and greatly increase the "width" of the damaging+knockdown effect.
2. Make Divebomb also have mini-Rhino Stomp effect (think, 2 seconds of the slowdown-lift). It too could do the status cleanse, perhaps.
3. How about reversed thinking for the augment? Like: Based on how many enemies are struck by your last tailwind-dash or divebomb, boost the crit-passive and make its effect linger for a while when grounded? So instead of clunkily forcing her to be more in the air like the current augment, instead give her ground-QoL - so she's viable in more places than in open worlds, where's she's ALREADY great.

[Steel_Rook]

Question on Tailwind: Will we have to hold the button continuously to hover? Or can we hold it for a bit (say 1 second) then release to keep Zephyr flying? On PC, Tailwind is bound to the 1 key by default. Moving while holding that button is incredibly awkward.

[Azamagon]

Just now, Steel_Rook said:

Question on Tailwind: Will we have to hold the button continuously to hover? Or can we hold it for a bit (say 1 second) then release to keep Zephyr flying? On PC, Tailwind is bound to the 1 key by default. Moving while holding that button is incredibly awkward.

I think someone already said; No, it's kind of like a toggle. Once active, it stays active until jumping/rolling/casting Tailwind - or along those lines.

[Steel_Rook]

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

I think someone already said; No, it's kind of like a toggle. Once active, it stays active until jumping/rolling/casting Tailwind - or along those lines.

Thank you. It's a bit of a large thread so I must have missed it. Definitely good news, then. Can't wait for the redesign :)

[ToaSirian]

On 2021-03-09 at 11:14 PM, God_is_a_Cat_Girl said:

The Hovering is interesting but I think it would benefit immensely from one of the changes that Hildryn got which was the dodge while on her 4 (which costs "energy" aka shield). I wouldn't mind of it costs energy but a short dodge would complement her movement while hovering (and complement the argument for the change which is that standing still is dangerous, but her hovering speed won't save you from that either, but dodging might), rather than relying only on her 1 which might move too far.

Make her side front and back rolls a small aerial burst in respective direction!

[Arthegall]

Love these buffs! Would be great if we had control to place each individual tornado where you want. Tap to place up to 3 and hold for wandering tornados would be perfect. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2021-03-09 at 10:14 PM, God_is_a_Cat_Girl said:

I wouldn't mind of it costs energy but a short dodge would complement her movement while hovering (and complement the argument for the change which is that standing still is dangerous, but her hovering speed won't save you from that either, but dodging might), rather than relying only on her 1 which might move too far.

Hmmm... I'm not sure why Zephyr would need that, because unlike Hildryn, Zephyr would still have both the single-use in-air dodge roll as usual, but also the ability to drop out of Hover and use aim-glide and the slide which all impart momentum. Also I would put forward the view that there's no real need of a dodge in the air specifically as Zephyr, because Turbulence exists, so she can take all the time in the world up there.

Outside of that, I see that the Hover is a momentum stopper, so I can see savvy players using Tailwind for the exact duration of the animation and buffering the 'hold 1' to Hover immediately at the end and kill the momentum so they can turn her 1 into more of a... hmm... hummingbird pattern, is how I'd put it. Dash, hover, dash, hover, roll, hover, dive bomb, jump in the air, repeat.

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

I'm so happy I took Zephyr prime out of the foundry recently.

[Birdframe_Prime]

23 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

I'm so happy I took Zephyr prime out of the foundry recently.

If you're looking to level her fast before the update, grab the Target Fixation augment from the Syndicates, slap that on with a little power Strength to make it work, range to have more fun, then Duration to keep up her 3.

Jump and Dive Bomb through regular Sanctuary Onslaught, stacking the damage (as far as I remember it lasts through the transition to a different stage as long as you don't touch the floor), remember not to touch ground for longer than it takes to impact it and then jump again, you'll kill a surprising amount of enemies that way.

Whether you do this Solo or in a squad, killing with her actual abilities the whole while, it's one of the fastest ways to 0-30 Zephyr. 

(Actually, regular SO in a squad is the fastest way to level a Warframe regardless, due to the high spawn rates and the two-minute rounds giving you an exit when you actually want one.)

[quxier]

On 2021-03-09 at 8:28 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

- Removed the hold-to-charge mechanic from the beginning, and instead made it so you can hold the ability at any time while in the air and it will toggle into hovering mode that holds you in flight while draining Energy every second. Hovering will now also allow you to move around instead of being fixed in place.

On 2021-03-10 at 3:08 AM, [DE]Momaw said:

It's a toggle. Press and hold for a moment to turn on hovering mode. You can then release the key and you will stay hovering as long as you have energy. You can stop hovering by using Tailwind, using melee ground slam, or using Jump

On 2021-03-11 at 1:33 AM, AdunSaveMe said:

Is there any reason this can't be a double tap instead? Is there any reason we can't have the option to make all held inputs and charges a double tap? Holding down keys for abilities in this game REALLY sucks. It's so awkward and sometimes outright painful. And those are abilities that you aren't trying to time an activation at the right height.

Why not just tap to break and hold to divebomb? Divebombing seems like thing that can "wait" a little bit. On the other hand Break, in my opinion, should be quick, hence tap (instead of hold).

On 2021-03-09 at 8:28 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Airburst
- Changed from a radial explosion that knocks enemies outward into a short duration vortex (like we did for Gauss’s Mach Crash Augment) so the pull is more reliable.
- We’re leaning on the pull mechanic as it synergizes great with Tornadoes since you can pull enemies into them.

Do both version works similarly? One version creates vortex that pulls enemies in, like in the video. Other version push enemies away. Does the "push away" create vortex that push enemies away?