Guns and Melee rebalancing

[(XBOX)UltraMagnus5000]

I feel like all weapons should have an innate blood rush, weeping wounds, and condition overload built into it (including guns with all guns having combo count) as those will always be go to picks. Their are other go to picks that probably should also be an innate things in weapons but I do not feel like naming them all as I rather highlight the very important ones. The higher level your weapon is the higher rank the mods are. With these changes it can help open more slots for melee and help for more diverse builds. While guns on the other hand build setup will be the same which probably will still make them fall off compare to melee. A way it can be fixed is increased the base damage of guns, this might not be the best or only way but it is the only one I can think of. I know DE are going change melee it speed will not be insane by preventing stacking speed mods and most likely speed multipliers. Instead it should be a speed cap because some melee weapons are too slow without speed stacking. The cap should be around 1.6 to 1.75 as it still fast but not insanely fast or slow. At the same time it will not help some melee as some stances seem to have slower movements than others in my opinion so stances need a rework before melee speed changes. A stance change that is needed is more air combos as most people stay in the air because of better evasiveness.

[lukinu_u]

As I mentionned in another topic, Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, Condition Overload,etc... should just be nerfed to be worth it ONLY if you play them correctly.
Right now all of these mods outperform their normal counterpart very early (Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds at x2 combo, Condition Overload with 1 status), which mean they are just upgrade of the normal mods, rather than being sidegrades that better but with a counterpart.

I  think changing the value of the these mods to be as strong as the normal ones much later would help :
- Blood Rush from 60% to 24% per Combo level, it equals True Steel at x6 combo, up to +264% at max combo.
- Weeping Wounds from 40% to 20% per Combo level so it equals Melee Prowess at x5 combo, up to +220% at max combo.
- Condition Overloda from 120%  to 55% per status, so it equals Primed Pressure Point at 3 status and grow stronger above up to 880% with all 16 status.

With these changes, using the "normal" mod can be benificial depending on your playstyle, which should bring more diversity in builds.

[BiancaRoughfin]

32 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

As I mentionned in another topic, Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, Condition Overload,etc... should just be nerfed to be worth it ONLY if you play them correctly.
Right now all of these mods outperform their normal counterpart very early (Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds at x2 combo, Condition Overload with 1 status), which mean they are just upgrade of the normal mods, rather than being sidegrades that better but with a counterpart.

I  think changing the value of the these mods to be as strong as the normal ones much later would help :
- Blood Rush from 60% to 24% per Combo level, it equals True Steel at x6 combo, up to +264% at max combo.
- Weeping Wounds from 40% to 20% per Combo level so it equals Melee Prowess at x5 combo, up to +220% at max combo.
- Condition Overloda from 120%  to 55% per status, so it equals Primed Pressure Point at 3 status and grow stronger above up to 880% with all 16 status.

With these changes, using the "normal" mod can be benificial depending on your playstyle, which should bring more diversity in builds.

I agree, those mods are what break Melee in my opinion as they stack too easily and increase way too much the bonus given.
Personally i have been considering builds with those mods overrated for a wile now and have no longer incorporated them into my builds, preferring for mods that give innate bonus since enemies usually die far faster and before i stack enough bonus that would make them worth using.

[Aldain]

2 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

As I mentionned in another topic, Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, Condition Overload,etc... should just be nerfed to be worth it ONLY if you play them correctly.
Right now all of these mods outperform their normal counterpart very early (Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds at x2 combo, Condition Overload with 1 status), which mean they are just upgrade of the normal mods, rather than being sidegrades that better but with a counterpart.

I  think changing the value of the these mods to be as strong as the normal ones much later would help :
- Blood Rush from 60% to 24% per Combo level, it equals True Steel at x6 combo, up to +264% at max combo.
- Weeping Wounds from 40% to 20% per Combo level so it equals Melee Prowess at x5 combo, up to +220% at max combo.
- Condition Overloda from 120%  to 55% per status, so it equals Primed Pressure Point at 3 status and grow stronger above up to 880% with all 16 status.

With these changes, using the "normal" mod can be benificial depending on your playstyle, which should bring more diversity in builds.

Honestly the scaling speed is a solid issue as well, but the other question is how they work together with the regular mods or other mods that provide similar gains (True Steel/Gladiator set 60/60s etc).

Condition Overload is the only one that currently replaces a base damage mod in most builds, and only because of the change to its scaling making it additive and not multiplicative with the base damage mod.

Either way I agree that the mods are too efficient for what they cost and the little effort needed, hell you could slap Corrupt Charge onto a weapon and that automatically makes Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds better picks because you start at a permanent x2 state (and Drifting Contact negates Corrupt Charge's drawback while also adding to Weeping).

But to answer the initial proposal by the OP...

5 hours ago, (XBOX)UltraMagnus5000 said:

I feel like all weapons should have an innate blood rush, weeping wounds, and condition overload built into it (including guns with all guns having combo count)

ABSO-FRIGGIN-LOUTLY NOT.

We need less of this absurd hyperscaling, not more of it.

[Loza03]

There's a number of reasons why this isn't really a good idea.

 

1: Rampant power creep. This causes every weapon in the game to have access to +760% crit chance, +479% Status and +... whatever% attack. This outright necessitates a massive enemy buff - no enemy in the game has access to anything near this level of defence.

2: leading on from 1, this begs the question - how much? After all, this now means that every weapon in the game functionally has 192 different possible base stats - 12 possible levels of Combo, and 16 status effects. This is before any mods are put in place, which already makes it a partial shot in the dark how much damage any given weapon can deal.

3: It dilutes the effect of player input. A player has access to immense damage output and huge damage numbers that change on what I would imagine to a new player would be arbitrarily. Likewise, the effects of their modding would seem arbitrary, since the damage they do varies arbitrarily anyway. This is by such a huge degree. It'd be a turn-off from the main progression systems of the game.

[(XBOX)UltraMagnus5000]

Oh finally other people who think there should be nerfs to the melee because I did not want to say something about it when majority of people do not want nerf when it is needed for a more difficult game as having a smarter AI is harder to code than nerfing something or making AI bulkier or do more damage 

[Dragazer]

On 2021-03-10 at 3:34 PM, Aldain said:

Either way I agree that the mods are too efficient for what they cost and the little effort needed, hell you could slap Corrupt Charge onto a weapon and that automatically makes Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds better picks because you start at a permanent x2 state (and Drifting Contact negates Corrupt Charge's drawback while also adding to Weeping).

On 2021-03-10 at 12:22 PM, lukinu_u said:

As I mentionned in another topic, Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, Condition Overload,etc... should just be nerfed to be worth it ONLY if you play them correctly.
Right now all of these mods outperform their normal counterpart very early (Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds at x2 combo, Condition Overload with 1 status), which mean they are just upgrade of the normal mods, rather than being sidegrades that better but with a counterpart.

With BR and weepwou you only get 60% crit and 40% status respectively when at 2x combo... what are you guys even talking about?

[Dragazer]

On 2021-03-10 at 1:08 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

I agree, those mods are what break Melee in my opinion as they stack too easily and increase way too much the bonus given.
Personally i have been considering builds with those mods overrated 

make up your mind

[BiancaRoughfin]

3 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

make up your mind

About?

[Dragazer]

1 minute ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

About?

you say the mods are what break melee in one sentence then in the next you say that they are "overated" 

[BiancaRoughfin]

Just now, Dragazer said:

you say the mods are what break melee in one sentence then in the next you say that they are "overated" 

Yes they break Melee making it too powerful and i consider them overrated because people give too much value to them and they arent that mandatory for the content we currently have. Not too hard to understand that.

[lukinu_u]

Il y a 8 heures, Dragazer a dit :

With BR and weepwou you only get 60% crit and 40% status respectively when at 2x combo... what are you guys even talking about?

2x combo mean nothing, you can get to 4-5x combo in less than a second (if you the target isn't already dead). These mods should be balanced around the combo limit, because it's extremly easy to reach and maintain.

[Oorel]

For a lot of these issues we are often stuck between half-finished updates and/or reworks. Melee 3.0 is not complete, the status rework is not complete. its messy.

I don't think melee vs gun is that much of a big deal, way overblown. I think the real issue is that its all unfinished atm.

Still, its being addressed so we'll see. I don't think bringing up guns to match melee is exactly the right move, especially not like you laid it out, innate CO etc. I think guns should maybe get a pass on stats like melee's did. Figure something out when it comes to slow weapons and their relationship with the status system where it is now. procs are mostly built around a cap of 10, or an infinitely stacking approach that's heavily favoring fire-rate. So give slow weapons a massive boost to status chance (+400%) or rework some statuses to be effective at a single proc.

 

On 2021-03-10 at 6:22 PM, lukinu_u said:

As I mentionned in another topic, Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, Condition Overload,etc... should just be nerfed to be worth it ONLY if you play them correctly.
Right now all of these mods outperform their normal counterpart very early (Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds at x2 combo, Condition Overload with 1 status), which mean they are just upgrade of the normal mods, rather than being sidegrades that better but with a counterpart.

I  think changing the value of the these mods to be as strong as the normal ones much later would help :
- Blood Rush from 60% to 24% per Combo level, it equals True Steel at x6 combo, up to +264% at max combo.
- Weeping Wounds from 40% to 20% per Combo level so it equals Melee Prowess at x5 combo, up to +220% at max combo.
- Condition Overloda from 120%  to 55% per status, so it equals Primed Pressure Point at 3 status and grow stronger above up to 880% with all 16 status.

With these changes, using the "normal" mod can be benificial depending on your playstyle, which should bring more diversity in builds.

I'm kind of with you on Blood Rush and Condition Overload. I do think you are taking it way too far down, but the approach is alright. Blood Rush is also stacking with the Gladiator set-bonus so that would also need an adjustment I guess. I can see Blood Rush at 30-40% certainly. for Condition Overload I think 80-100 is acceptable. not sure.

I think you are horribly wrong about Weeping Wounds though, id like to see that buffed actually, take it to 50-60% even. I think its a mod that had gained a lot from status chance going above 100%, but its also a bit dull that its so rare to get into really crazy procs around 300%, I wanna see more of that, not piddling around 100-200 at best in most cases, dull.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

Le 10/03/2021 à 18:22, lukinu_u a dit :

As I mentionned in another topic, Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, Condition Overload,etc... should just be nerfed to be worth it ONLY if you play them correctly.
Right now all of these mods outperform their normal counterpart very early (Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds at x2 combo, Condition Overload with 1 status), which mean they are just upgrade of the normal mods, rather than being sidegrades that better but with a counterpart.

I  think changing the value of the these mods to be as strong as the normal ones much later would help :
- Blood Rush from 60% to 24% per Combo level, it equals True Steel at x6 combo, up to +264% at max combo.
- Weeping Wounds from 40% to 20% per Combo level so it equals Melee Prowess at x5 combo, up to +220% at max combo.
- Condition Overloda from 120%  to 55% per status, so it equals Primed Pressure Point at 3 status and grow stronger above up to 880% with all 16 status.

With these changes, using the "normal" mod can be benificial depending on your playstyle, which should bring more diversity in builds.

the Cedo alt fire proc 7 status at once, in AoE with a projectile that bounce between targets with a better autoaim than Nezha chakram.

So currently condition overload is even better than what you wrote...

So nerfing the Cedo is also "needed"

Then this won't change heavy attacks forced slash procs and viral / slash being above other status.

And it also won't change naramon trivializing combo meter.

The changes quoted above are necessary but not sufficient imho.

[(XBOX)UltraMagnus5000]

1 minute ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

the Cedo alt fire proc 7 status at once, in AoE with a projectile that bounce between targets with a better autoaim than Nezha chakram.

So currently condition overload is even better than what you wrote...

So nerfing the Cedo is also "needed"

Then this won't change heavy attacks forced slash procs and viral / slash being above other status.

And it also won't change naramon trivializing combo meter.

The changes quoted above are necessary but not sufficient imho.

true.