Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I suggest keep the current IPS damage strong/weakness against enemies, but completely remove their status effect and move the effect to 2nd tier elements.

IMO slash is a too strong of status effect compare to impact and puncture. This make slash weapon being praise while impact/puncture being let down. I am aware slash doesn't bypass shield, but it still works better against 2/3 of factions.

DE should Move slash effect to one of those 2nd element like Blast for example. Of course, this require another balance on all 2nd elemental effect and switch them around. Maybe they even need to introduce another element(5th element like rock?) for combination for extra rooms.

This whole rebalance thing might sound alot of work, but elements are foundation of everything. If the rebalance is done correctly, more weapons will be accessible and not just those slash one being favor. Players still have freedom to make slash status on every weapon.

 

Edited by Godmode_Ash
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

IMO slash is a too strong of status effect compare to impact and puncture. This make slash weapon being praise while impact/puncture being let down. I am aware slash doesn't bypass shield, but it still works better against 2/3 of factions.

I deem Slash overrated, people keep exalting it because the procs deal true damage which for me means nothing because wile they are stacking up procs to get a mob to bleed to death, im already killing the third mob with my Impact or Puncture (Prefered) weapons.

[DE] did propose a wile back to have Slash procs be based of a weapon`s Slash damage alone instead of the sum of all the weapon`s damage but the Slash community dumped their tears on the forums and convinced DE not to make the change.

16 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

DE should Move slash effect to one of those 2nd element like Blast for example. Of course, this require another balance on all 2nd elemental effect and switch them around. Maybe they even need to introduce another element(5th element like rock?) for combination for extra rooms.

This makes absolutely no sense, especially the "Rock" idea because it would be a Physical element and we already have 3 Physical properties and properly sculpted a rock can Impact, Puncture and Slash.

20 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

This whole rebalance thing might sound alot of work, but elements are foundation of everything. If the rebalance is done correctly, more weapons will be accessible and not just those slash one being favor.

Again, same thing i said up top, Slash to me is Overrated as you can kill mobs faster with Puncture than players filling enemies with Slash procs. I believe it was Ashisogi that made a video comparting the Tigris series and Hek series weapons to show how they performed.

27 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

Players still have freedom to make slash status on every weapon.

Uh, no they shouldnt, this kinda contradicts the whole purpose of your topic. Slash Proccing should be the focus of Slash based weapons and not have a missile or plasma bolt cause it. If the Nerf to slash [DE] had proposed had been implemented, mods like Hunters Munition would be a situational mod and not treated as mandatory for Crit based primary weapons as the Slash fandom currently treats.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

The topic of Slash's utility is really valid only against Grineer due to how their armor scaling affects damage reduction. Slash is generally not needed against either corpus or infested. 

Slash is certainly not overpowered or in need of tuning. It is very effective against Grineer but it kind of needs to be, given Grineer's poorly designed scaling damage reduction. 

The majority of community members and youtube plebs fixate on strategies for taking down Grineer, as such we see a very focused set of priorities which include slash. If corpus were made stronger then slash's popularity would drop immensely. Same with Infested. If infested were comparable to Grineer we would see a big shift in popularized mod loadouts not including slash simply because it isn't necessary against infested well into steel path.

Edited by Leqesai
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

I deem Slash overrated, people keep exalting it because the procs deal true damage which for me means nothing because wile they are stacking up procs to get a mob to bleed to death, im already killing the third mob with my Impact or Puncture (Prefered) weapons.

Slash status is still more superior than impact/puncture against non shield. You are giving example on low HP weak mob, which anything works anyway. On high level even infest, slash is still better.

 

48 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

This makes absolutely no sense, especially the "Rock" idea because it would be a Physical element and we already have 3 Physical properties and properly sculpted a rock can Impact, Puncture and Slash.

I was referring to IF DE doesn't have enough room for element to shift slash into 2nd tier element. They could add 5th element for the combination purpose. It doesn't have to be rock(earth), it was just a quick example name that I came up. The rock would be same tier as Toxic, Cold, Electricity, and Heat, and use to combine.

Again, it doesn't have be Rock, it was just a placeholder name I quickly inputed.

 

48 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Again, same thing i said up top, Slash to me is Overrated as you can kill mobs faster with Puncture than players filling enemies with Slash procs. I believe it was Ashisogi that made a video comparting the Tigris series and Hek series weapons to show how they performed.

Slash is not overrated. Especially compare only to impact/puncture, slash is far superior in term of dealing damage against any non shield units. Why else would people use Hunter Munitions?

Slash deal better damage against grinner since it by pass armor with dot.

Slash already best damage type against infested, on top of it has dots.

For shield unit, once shield is down, slash do more damage than impact/puncture because of dots.

 

48 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Uh, no they shouldnt, this kinda contradicts the whole purpose of your topic. Slash Proccing should be the focus of Slash based weapons and not have a missile or plasma bolt cause it. If the Nerf to slash [DE] had proposed had been implemented, mods like Hunters Munition would be a situational mod and not treated as mandatory for Crit based primary weapons as the Slash fandom currently treats.

I never said nerf slash. I said put slash effect(change the name or something) and make it 2nd tier element like Corrosive, Magnetic etc.

Because base element IPS define a weapon. Having slash status so strong will out-shadow puncture/impact weapon.

Edited by Godmode_Ash
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

The topic of Slash's utility is really valid only against Grineer due to how their armor scaling affects damage reduction. Slash is generally not needed against either corpus or infested. 

Slash do more damage against infested too. Not only the bonus damage, but also the extra dots.

Like I said Slash > 2/3 of factions. I would even consider all 3 factions since slash do 50% more damage against corpus when out of shield. But let's just keep corpus very high shield for sake of argument so impact is not useless.

Slash effect is better against grineer than puncture is suppose to. So if making IPS no status effect, it makes base element more balance. People can still use slash thru modding on 2nd tier element.

Edited by Godmode_Ash
Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

Slash do more damage against infested too.

You aren't following what I was saying. I did not say slash doesn't do damage to infested, I said it is not necessary. Infested do not require slash procs across any of the star chart or well into steel path endurance missions. The way damage calculations work with their health pool means non-slash builds can be just as effective if not more effective than slash builds.

the infested in the Cambion Drift are more prone to slash builds but only because that sub faction is highly resistant to elemental combos that generally work against normal infested. But slash is also not necessary against this sub faction due to how level scaling works in Cambion Drift outside of Steel Path. Even on Steel Path slash is not necessary because high damage burst DPS is still perfectly viable.

 

If you are relying on slash procs to kill infested then you are building your weapons wrong, it is as simple as that.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I disagree, slash is strong and puncture is somewhat decent since it can bypass some armor but instead of following the logic of nerfing the strong so the weak can compare (wich will lead nowhere) I'd like to see a little buff to puncture and a impact rework since is the most useless status just behind magnetic and blast.

So yeah, instead of messing with things that are somewhat right lets work on those who are bad.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

I disagree, slash is strong and puncture is somewhat decent since it can bypass some armor but instead of following the logic of nerfing the strong so the weak can compare (wich will lead nowhere) I'd like to see a little buff to puncture and a impact rework since is the most useless status just behind magnetic and blast.

So yeah, instead of messing with things that are somewhat right lets work on those who are bad.

I didn't say nerf slash, I said move it to 2nd tier. Yes, this require some works, but at least IPS weapons will all be balanced. Slash weapon won't be the only community favorite.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Godmode_Ash said:

I didn't say nerf slash, I said move it to 2nd tier. Yes, this require some works, but at least IPS weapons will all be balanced. Slash weapon won't be the only community favorite.

Moving slash "to 2nd tier" is not a productive change. I'm sorry but the idea just is not very well thought out nor is your reasoning logical. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

You aren't following what I was saying. I did not say slash doesn't do damage to infested, I said it is not necessary. Infested do not require slash procs across any of the star chart or well into steel path endurance missions. The way damage calculations work with their health pool means non-slash builds can be just as effective if not more effective than slash builds.

the infested in the Cambion Drift are more prone to slash builds but only because that sub faction is highly resistant to elemental combos that generally work against normal infested. But slash is also not necessary against this sub faction due to how level scaling works in Cambion Drift outside of Steel Path. Even on Steel Path slash is not necessary because high damage burst DPS is still perfectly viable.

 

If you are relying on slash procs to kill infested then you are building your weapons wrong, it is as simple as that.

I kept getting the response saying slash is not necessary because enemies are too weak.

Regardless enemies difficulty, slash is too strong compare to impact/puncture, thurs I propose change.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Leqesai said:

Moving slash "to 2nd tier" is not a productive change. I'm sorry but the idea just is not very well thought out nor is your reasoning logical. 

Can you elaborate more?

The only downside I see is that there will be alot more works. Shifting elemental names, adding extra space etc. But if it is done right, IPS will be balanced. Can you think of a better way to balance IPS?

Link to post
Share on other sites
hace 1 minuto, Godmode_Ash dijo:

I didn't say nerf slash, I said move it to 2nd tier. Yes, this require some works, but at least IPS weapons will all be balanced. Slash weapon won't be the only community favorite.

So slash won't do a thing but other element will have slash effects? Excuse me but leaving the stat completely useless isn't a nerf? anyways, won't change a thing since the people will build the weapons with the status that has the procs aaaand I didn't said nerf slash either, I said following that logic....

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

So slash won't do a thing but other element will have slash effects? Excuse me but leaving the stat completely useless isn't a nerf? anyways, won't change a thing since the people will build the weapons with the status that has the procs aaaand I didn't said nerf slash either, I said following that logic....

Yes, exactly. Slash won't have effect, only faction bonus damage. Player can still build the "new slash" whatever its call on 2nd tier. So IPS is balanced.

It is not a nerf because slash is not taking out of the game, just a new name and in different tier.

You can say its a nerf to existing slash weapon, but not nerf to slash status itself. But the whole point is to balance IPS.

Edited by Godmode_Ash
Link to post
Share on other sites
hace 1 minuto, Godmode_Ash dijo:

So IPS is balanced.

Welp, can't be unbalanced if doesn't make a thing.

Silly proposition but made me remember that the elements are even less balanced than last year (funny thing since the element rework was supposed to do the opposite)

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

32 minutes ago, taiiat said:

so you want IPS to not have any Status Effects?

that sounds boring.

 

23 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Welp, can't be unbalanced if doesn't make a thing.

Silly proposition but made me remember that the elements are even less balanced than last year (funny thing since the element rework was supposed to do the opposite)

Many things in this game are broken or unbalanced, I am sure most of you would agree on that at least. Personally I would prefer a more balanced game than having new contents. New contents add new problems while existing problems not being fix. We are sitting on top piles of issue waiting for it to brust.

Perhaps the way I suggest solving IPS issue is too far reach, it involve in balance all weapons, adding new elements, renaming, and possibility of rebalancing all the other elements.

But slash is definitely overpowered compare to puncture/impact and it is one of the fundamental issue for weapon balancing(other than crit).

 

If anyone has better method to balance IPS I would like to hear it.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

I kept getting the response saying slash is not necessary because enemies are too weak.

Regardless enemies difficulty, slash is too strong compare to impact/puncture, thurs I propose change.

This is simply incorrect. You may firmly believe this to be true but you are mistaken. The reasons why it is not overpowered have been explained to you earlier in the thread. 

 

46 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

Can you elaborate more?

The only downside I see is that there will be alot more works. Shifting elemental names, adding extra space etc. But if it is done right, IPS will be balanced. Can you think of a better way to balance IPS?

Your suggestion does not address the concern you have regarding Slash's effectiveness. It just makes modding for slash builds different. 

Slash is simply not as powerful as you describe. Slapping it onto another elemental proc, or assigning it "2nd tier" status does nothing. How long do you think it would be until people realize they can simply mod their weapons differently and benefit from roughly the same effect as the current system? Your proposal is just not well thought out.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think your post is onto something, but it seems people have jumped to defend IP 

See, the problem is, statuses as a whole are not in a very good place. I know people praised the status update a few years ago, I am still not sure why. All this did was push a viral + slash meta into a lot of builds instead of a corrosive one like we had prior to that update. This meta is arguably stronger. Where Corrosive was used to remove armor, viral + slash negates the need for this and completely bypasses armor. 

The problem is there. Slash can synergise with viral in ways Puncture and Impact cannot synergise with other elements. You cannot combo Impact or Puncture with something else to make them more effective. 
In addition to that, their inherent effects of Weakened (puncture) and Stagger (impact) are for the most part redundant in a majority of Warframe content. 

Weakened is useless for a few reasons. We are unlikely to proc this in an AoE wide enough for us to reduce damage from all enemies, and reducing their damage against us is in the grand of schemes not really the best solution (killing them is far easier and how most players play the game).

Stagger could have been interesting if it did not have such specific conditions to proc, which when translated into the real game means you will basically never see this proc as the enemy will likely die (ironically this could be to a slash proc) before you get a chance to mercy them. 

 

How would I fix it? Well, this is one for DE to answer I am afraid. I don't have any ground breaking solutions for the elements themselves. 

I do think enemies need proper scaling and a cap, and once this is in place, the devs can start balancing elements and damage around enemies. I am not sure what tool or benchmark is used for balancing at the moment, it is clear to me for most of the casual content I play, my mods simply do not really matter beyond a little damage and multishot. This indicates to me balance was not really considered when status was revised. 

I fear the topic of enemy scaling, AI, and such is veering away from your point here so I'll stop there. 

Don't let people tell you slash is not OP my friend, it really is, people seem to be in denial as they run around with their viral, slash and heat modded weapons. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

This is simply incorrect. You may firmly believe this to be true but you are mistaken. The reasons why it is not overpowered have been explained to you earlier in the thread. 

The only reasoning against my idea I saw was that enemy die too fast to matter. Would you kindly point out what else?

Slash against grineer, we already agree its best.

Slash is intended against infested faction, we don't need to argue on this.

Slash is pointless against shield. But once shield is done, slash does % more damage against corpus unit than impact, also proc dot.

 

Please explain to me how slash is not overpowered among the IPS, and how is slash balanced?

15 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Your suggestion does not address the concern you have regarding Slash's effectiveness. It just makes modding for slash builds different. 

My concern is that a base element being too strong. Not slash itself too strong.

I have no problem if Slash is in 2nd tier, because 2nd tier elemental are modded also have stronger effect(viral for example). Player actually have to make choice on modding.

 

15 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Slash is simply not as powerful as you describe. Slapping it onto another elemental proc, or assigning it "2nd tier" status does nothing. How long do you think it would be until people realize they can simply mod their weapons differently and benefit from roughly the same effect as the current system? Your proposal is just not well thought out.

Yes it is, Slash is VERY strong.

You can't be serious telling me impact/puncture is as strong as slash. And yes, I am only comparing base element IPS, not viral/heat/mag/toxic etc. Thrus propose moving slash away from base IPS to 2nd tier.

 

Edited by Godmode_Ash
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, MetalGrayFox said:

I think your post is onto something, but it seems people have jumped to defend IP 

I think it's because of my grammar. People read my post but not really understand what I am trying to express. I kept re-edit my post to fix my grammar and try to make my post easier to read.

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

I think it's because of my grammar. People read my post but not really understand what I am trying to express. I kept re-edit my post to fix my grammar and try to make my post easier to read.

It isn't your grammar at all. It is because your suggestion and reasoning are simply not well thought out. Your suggestion simply doesn't make sense, not because you worded it in a weird way but because your reasoning is not well thought out. 

It has been explained. Slash is very effective against Grineer. Its use against Infested is negligible. Simply because it -works- doesn't make it good. Slash against infested is a really pointless option because burst DPS is far more effective against infested than any other faction. Burst DPS is not slash damage...

So the crux of your argument is that slash is too good and you want to move it to a different elemental combination. This is absurd. Not only does it not address your primary argument, that slash is overpowered, but it doesn't address the relation of slash to impact and puncture. 

Furthermore your assertion that slash is too strong to be a base damage type is absurd. Tying it to a 2nd tier damage type would do nothing but cause it to proc more often because elemental damage values can be much higher than base IPS unless you specifically stack the IPS damage mods (which is a really naive way to build weapons even if you focus on slash because +slash mods do not affect slash damage).

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

It isn't your grammar at all. It is because your suggestion and reasoning are simply not well thought out. Your suggestion simply doesn't make sense, not because you worded it in a weird way but because your reasoning is not well thought out. 

This makes me kinda happy. I post on forum to practice my writing. =)

 

20 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

It has been explained. Slash is very effective against Grineer. Its use against Infested is negligible. Simply because it -works- doesn't make it good. Slash against infested is a really pointless option because burst DPS is far more effective against infested than any other faction. Burst DPS is not slash damage...

Even if you don't want to consider Slash Dot, how is puncture/impact going to do more dmg against the infested than slash?

Assuming 100 puncture damage vs 100 slash damage, how is puncture going to have more burst damage than slash when infested is weak to slash?

Unless you are saying infest is too weak that anything works, but then what's the point of using it as an argument?

 

20 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

So the crux of your argument is that slash is too good and you want to move it to a different elemental combination. This is absurd. Not only does it not address your primary argument, that slash is overpowered, but it doesn't address the relation of slash to impact and puncture. 

Yes, slash "effect" is too strong as base IPS effect. Should be moved up to 2nd tier at least where players at least have to make choice on modding.

By removing IPS their status effect, the only thing matter is their strong/weakness vs faction. Hence more balanced for BASE weapon element.

 

20 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Furthermore your assertion that slash is too strong to be a base damage type is absurd. Tying it to a 2nd tier damage type would do nothing but cause it to proc more often because elemental damage values can be much higher than base IPS unless you specifically stack the IPS damage mods (which is a really naive way to build weapons even if you focus on slash because +slash mods do not affect slash damage).

I said slash effect is too strong as BASE element. I have no problem if slash effect is as strong in 2nd tier thru modding. That's why I said this is NOT a nerf to slash effect, but nerf to HIGH slash weapon.

Edited by Godmode_Ash
Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, MetalGrayFox said:

The problem is there. Slash can synergise with viral in ways Puncture and Impact cannot synergise with other elements. You cannot combo Impact or Puncture with something else to make them more effective. 

indeed! there is quite limited synergy with any of the Damage Types. except for that one pairing.
but synergy isn't a bad thing, it's just the only real case of synergy. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, taiiat said:

indeed! there is quite limited synergy with any of the Damage Types. except for that one pairing.
but synergy isn't a bad thing, it's just the only real case of synergy. 

Even without synergy, Slash is already too strong among IPS. 

Edited by Godmode_Ash
Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, taiiat said:

indeed! there is quite limited synergy with any of the Damage Types. except for that one pairing.
but synergy isn't a bad thing, it's just the only real case of synergy. 

There should definitely be more syngergistic combinations between procs.

Gas+Heat for example could cause an explosion

Cold+Impact should increase impact damage and cause impact procs to deal true damage

Puncture+Corrosive should magnify the effect of corrosive based on stacks of puncture by permanently reducing armor by a %. IE 10 puncture stacks + 10 corrosion stacks = 100% armor strip permanently on target.

Electricity+Magnetic should spread magnetic damage/proc across an AOE (think of electric super magnets)

Radiation+Magnetic should cause affected enemies to deal increased damage to one another

Slash+Puncture should magnify the bleed proc duration based on puncture stacks

Blast+Impact targets affected by blast procs should have impact procs magnified, at a total of 10 procs between blast and impact targets should be forced knockdown

 

Just brainstorming but this is the direction I'd like to see changes to status take.

 

Also, I do believe that the following status effects are pretty lame:

Puncture
Impact
Blast
 

These three status effects would certainly do with a rework...

Puncture should cause targets to take more damage, not deal more less damage...
Impact should have the accuracy debuff in addition to the stagger
Blast should cause knockdown or at least large staggers.. I honestly have no idea why they nerfed blast so hard. 

Edited by Leqesai
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...