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Loki 2.0 (Addressing issue then Rework)


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FYI: At the bottom of this post there is a spoilers tab that contains just the rework.

Passive

Passive Problem: Loki's current passive allows him to hang to walls 10x longer. It's not much of a secret that most (if not all) players will not be wall latching much when playing with Loki, even less so will they be doing it longer than the normal wall latch time. It's a near dead passive in the warframe experience. To abilities like this, I'd say it's better to make them into mods for the specific warframe, and then give the warframe an active passive that plays well with the nature of the game. 

Passive Rework: While invisible, perform all parkour moves 100% faster. While visible, Deal 200% more damage and staggers enemies when you attack from behind.

I think people who like Loki more than other invisible warframes enjoy his speed, so the first part of this adds to that. The second part allows for synergy with his decoy, making enemies turn around while Loki delivers a deadly blows from behind, just like what you see in Loki's frozen scene when you view his ability menu:

Spoiler

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Decoy

Decoy Problem: Its health is so small that it nearly can do nothing to help you in high level content. Saryn's Molt and Nyx's Mind Control both distract like Decoy, but both of these abilities have great health, can deal damage, and other things. They help a ton in high and low level content. 

Decoy Rework & More: Giving Loki some more tricks for his sleeves

  • Decoy: Loki's normal Decoy except it now goes invincible for 10 seconds after taking fatal damage and marks nearby enemies on the map. 
  • Mine: Loki creates a mine that explodes in a 6m radius after a few seconds of an enemy being within 3m of it (or immediately if the enemy makes direct contact with it), throwing them high in the air and knocking them out for several seconds.
  • Hacker: Create a clone that unlocks locked lockers and hacks consoles. (Performs actions in 2 seconds)

Invisibility

Invisibility Problem: I get that it has to be re casted for Loki's unique downside for invisibility (Every warframe that goes invisible has one), but still it sucks as it can have you becoming visible at the worst of times.

Invisibility Rework: You can now cancel it early.

This change is just to make it play better with the change I made to the passive.

Switch Teleport

Switch Teleport Problem: This ability can work as a fun gap closer, letting you reach a group of enemies faster than jumping towards them but its not easy enough to do and isn't really worth it. The ability is also good for getting across areas without being seen however that's not really needed outside of spy missions.

Switch Teleport Rework: Now gives the player a period of invincibility when they switch places with something (Help from @(PSN)DidacoJack), and gain 15 energy per kill within 4 seconds.

The invincibility allows for some safe use of his passive. Turn invisible, Switch Teleport with an enemy, become visible, and backstab or shoot every enemy u see. 

Spoiler

turn around horror GIF by RJFilmSchool

Radial disarm

Radial Disarm Problem: It doesn't do anything to enemies without weapons already

Radial Disarm Rework: In addition to what the ability already does, casting it on enemies without ranged weapons stuns them for 5 seconds.

Full Rework

Spoiler

Passive Rework: While invisible, perform all parkour moves 100% faster. While visible, Deal 200% more damage to enemies and staggers them when you attack from behind

Decoy Rework & More: Giving Loki some tricks for his sleeves

  • Decoy: Loki's normal Decoy except it now goes invincible for 10 seconds after taking fatal damage and marks nearby enemies on the map for you and allies. 
  • Mine: Loki creates a mine that explodes in a 6m radius after a few seconds of an enemy being within 3m of it (or immediately if the enemy makes direct contact with it), knocking enemies to the ground and keeping them there for a few seconds
  • Hacker: Creates a clone that unlocks locked lockers and hacks consoles. (Performs actions in 2 seconds)

Invisibility Rework: You can now cancel it early

Switch Teleport Rework: Now gives the player a period of invincibility when they switch places with something, and gain 15 energy per kill within 4 seconds. 

Radial Disarm Rework: In addition to what the ability already does, casting it on enemies without ranged weapons stuns them for 5 seconds.

End!

I tried to make this rework make Loki more fun to play. The rework adds more stealth as he will be able to Switch Teleport with his "Mine" instead of his decoy so that no enemies are alerted, the ability to crack open more lockers, Possible funny synergy with "Mine", "Decoy", and "Radial Disarm", better agility, etc...

What do you think?

(By the way, I could not for the life of me think of a 4th ability for his 1st ability, If you can think of anything please list it as well)

Edited by (PSN)Frost_Nephilim
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I am usually against Loki rework proposals because people often just want to change his core gameplay, but it looks like you managed to keep his play style, while also making his abilities more relevant to the current state of the game. So I will say this is a Loki rework I can actually endorse!

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vor 7 Minuten schrieb (PSN)Frost_Nephilim:

Passive

Passive Problem: Loki's current passive allows him to hang to walls 10x longer. It's not much of a secret that most (if not all) players will not be wall latching much when playing with Loki, even less so will they be doing it longer than the normal wall latch time. It's a near dead passive in the warframe experience. To abilities like this, I'd say it's better to make them into mods for the specific warframe, and give then give the warframe an active passive that plays well with the nature of the game.

top contribution. don't want to distract you any further.
and if that is changed, please adjust or even remove the riven challenge. without loki it becomes extremely uncomfortable.

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6 minutes ago, NeoRetro10K said:

I am usually against Loki rework proposals because people often just want to change his core gameplay, but it looks like you managed to keep his play style, while also making his abilities more relevant to the current state of the game. So I will say this is a Loki rework I can actually endorse!

Tysm! Really happy you feel that way! 😊

I like Loki's kit too and definitely didn't want to see any of it go away, just wanted it to be enhanced. I don't feel like i have quite nailed it yet but it's a start

5 minutes ago, Battle.Mage said:

top contribution. don't want to distract you any further.
and if that is changed, please adjust or even remove the riven challenge. without loki it becomes extremely uncomfortable.

That is something I had not considered, I'm not to familiar with the challenge but there are mods that could help get you through it still though yeah?

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Le 11/03/2021 à 19:40, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim a dit :

I tried to make this rework make Loki more fun to play. The rework adds more stealth as he will be able to Switch Teleport with his "Mine" instead of his decoy so that no enemies are alerted, the ability to crack open more lockers, Possible funny synergy with "Mine", "Decoy", and "Radial Disarm", better agility, etc...

What do you think?

(By the way, I could not for the life of me think of a 4th ability for his 1st ability, If you can think of anything please list it as well)

I agree about most of Problems because I love Playing Loki since it is my FIRST Warframe (yeah around update 7, we had Loki as starter Warframe, a hardcore starter -_-;; ) but I mainly Play Ivara (Prime) today and not Loki when I want to play the "YOU CAN'T SEE ME" ninja...

-Passive : Wall latching x10 is only good for one riven challenge and almost nothing else unlike most recent passive (like ember). I'd prefer somthing like Titania, a basic x2 Wall latching and aim Glide and a melee Critical bonus than a damage bonus because it suit Loki better than crude damage bonus.

-Decoy : Decoy durability or the absence of durability is a problem as it is also limited in time !!! Making decoy with a larger amount of health boostable with strenght should be a good start; Using HOLD to cast it on a enemy target with only a time limit and with "Savior Decoy" aug it will be very funny (like in the old trailer where loki escape Krill's hammer by switching with a grinner soldier)

-Switch Teleport Problem : Its' a good one but as the original should be improve Using HOLD to lock on on a enemy target and TIP to activate it; with could smoothen and fasten "Safeguard Switch". Another lazy way could to switch with nearest ennemi (TIP)  / Ally (Hold) without having to target it, the energy cost could be higher but it will be worth.

-Invisibility : it is fine to me because it's the "Loki Main Ability", a benefit from its passive should be great. Only Ivara invisibility is accually eclipsing Loki one because it is a continous one. Upgrading Lok invisibility to the 4th one will hinder newer player and itshould stay a 3th BUT It absolutely need to be rework regarding Ivara One. (I don't know how much player use less Loki since, but it is a major factor of why I don't play Loki anymore)

-Radial disarm : Radial what !? Joke apart, its a good ability but a bit expensive too me (like Rhino Stomp, unlike Most exalted weapons)... Even if it do great thing in high level with a large range; Radial Disarm and his augment could be a Third ability.

 

My Personnal Opinion : Invisibility is Loki signature, like Rhino's skin and Excalibur's Javelins... but since Ivara's Invisibity is continious, even without running she outperfom Loki as THE silent killer. You just have to roll and roll to stay invisible and kill lots of ennemies without the fear of "becoming visible at the worst of times".

This is (should be) Loki, the trickster, the deceiver.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I want this change. DE need to make up their minds with passives. Are they supposed to be good or worthless? Some frames have their gimmick built into them by it's passive or the passive itself reinforces the way they're supposed to be played. Zephyr's update made it where you get a free 150% percent crit chance from being in the air. The air frame now has a damage bonus passive to incentivize people staying in the air. Which is good. And you basically came up with a similar set up for his passive. So, 100x yes to this.

The only thing that I really got a question on is the 1 ability. Is it like vauban's 2 and ivara's 1 functionality wise? where there's multiple options to choose from, and you have to hold down to fully activate? Might be neat. What you got is fine. 3 options is not bad as it does get kind of cumbersome to flick through the options. I would be fine with the standard 2 options with hold/tap respectively. Like you held down for decoy and tapped for mines (so you can set up trap fields fast). But all in all, it's a nice rework idea.

A slight nit pick, I would update his 4 cast animation in the air where he would spin around. Instead of just doing the ground cast animation. Having him do it in the air but stand in a way like he's on the ground is just silly. Really hold DE to it. No easy way out of coding it like other abilities that force you back on the ground. Actually just make a new animation for air casts DE.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, PR1D3 said:

DE need to make up their minds with passives. Are they supposed to be good or worthless? Some frames have their gimmick built into them by it's passive or the passive itself reinforces the way they're supposed to be played. Zephyr's update made it where you get a free 150% percent crit chance from being in the air. The air frame now has a damage bonus passive to incentivize people staying in the air. Which is good. And you basically came up with a similar set up for his passive. So, 100x yes to this.

I think theyre going to go ahead shift to more useful/active passives, which i love because it further helps set warframes apart from each other and even helps bring out the theme of a warframe for the player to feel more of. Before, id say passives felt like 1/4 of a "cherry on top". Now you get the whole cherry

And thanks! Glad you like it!

1 hour ago, PR1D3 said:

The only thing that I really got a question on is the 1 ability. Is it like vauban's 2 and ivara's 1 functionality wise? where there's multiple options to choose from, and you have to hold down to fully activate? Might be neat. What you got is fine. 3 options is not bad as it does get kind of cumbersome to flick through the options. I would be fine with the standard 2 options with hold/tap respectively. Like you held down for decoy and tapped for mines (so you can set up trap fields fast). But all in all, it's a nice rework idea.

Yup thats how it would work. And true, less abilities means less switching

I was thinking that maybe i should do away with the hacker clone idea and use this idea that someone else gave to me about combining switch teleport and decoy. The idea was to tap to cast decoy, hold to swap places with it which i thought was really neat

The mine ability i was going to move to his 3rd ability and prehaps make more trap options for his 3rd. I recently invisioned turning loki into a trickster+trap warframe since deception is the key to making traps work, fits really well together

1 hour ago, PR1D3 said:

A slight nit pick, I would update his 4 cast animation in the air where he would spin around. Instead of just doing the ground cast animation. Having him do it in the air but stand in a way like he's on the ground is just silly. Really hold DE to it. No easy way out of coding it like other abilities that force you back on the ground. Actually just make a new animation for air casts DE.

I share in this desire as well xD, will def add that

Edited by (PSN)Frost_Nephilim
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2 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

I was thinking that maybe i should do away with the hacker clone idea and use this idea that someone else gave to me about combining switch teleport and decoy. The idea was to tap to cast decoy, hold to swap places with it which i thought was really neat

The mine ability i was going to move to his 3rd ability and prehaps make more trap options for his 3rd. I recently envisioned turning loki into a trickster+trap warframe since deception is the key to making traps work, fits really well together

That sounds neat. If you wanted to do away with the hacker clone, that's not really a big deal. We do have that helminth hacking ability too. I know people would do the whole "well vauban and protea got traps" blah if you do come up with traps on 3 but I see it working. However what you have now, to me at least, is gold. You're not completely rewriting the script when it comes to his abilities, and kind of baking an augment into his teleport. It wouldn't be that big of a stretch or work, which I bet DE would be keen on. Having him be a gadget/trap trickster would make him synergize thematically with Mirage. I like the idea of having the ability to switch teleport for the invincibility, but also have the ability to swap places with traps. Especially if you just have to map the decoy and mine on the 1 key. Tap to throw a trap/mine like a frisbee behind enemies, swap places with it, goes off with a flashbang effect cc'ing them, and then you shoot them in the back during that brief invincible window of ST, cloak, reposition.

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7 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

That sounds neat. If you wanted to do away with the hacker clone, that's not really a big deal. We do have that helminth hacking ability too.

True true, helmith ftw

8 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

I know people would do the whole "well vauban and protea got traps" blah if you do come up with traps on 3 but I see it working

I feel that, id even go as far as to say that Hydroid is trap themed too

Maybe should try something different

12 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

However what you have now, to me at least, is gold. You're not completely rewriting the script when it comes to his abilities, and kind of baking an augment into his teleport. It wouldn't be that big of a stretch or work, which I bet DE would be keen on. Having him be a gadget/trap trickster would make him synergize thematically with Mirage. I like the idea of having the ability to switch teleport for the invincibility, but also have the ability to swap places with traps. Especially if you just have to map the decoy and mine on the 1 key. Tap to throw a trap/mine like a frisbee behind enemies, swap places with it, goes off with a flashbang effect cc'ing them, and then you shoot them in the back during that brief invincible window of ST, cloak, reposition.

Ty ty! & Agreed!

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think that making Loki's 1 multi-use should be just making it a sidegrade to Celestial Twin, where it's less damage and meat but does more things depending on what you're targeting. Instead of giving it Invulnerability on breaking and cycle to a separate hacking and damage function, make it contextual where it attacks with your actual secondary at fractional damage if cast on the ground, turns an enemy into a meatshield if you cast it directly targeting one, goes for interactables to auto-hack, open doors, and so on if you use it on a location with one in 3m, and acts as a buff of some description if cast on an ally, at the detriment of turning them into a bullet magnet. Then the augments don't need changed because it's still always a decoy, just with more functions.

No real complaints with Invisibility having manual shutdown to re-cast, that's increasingly commonplace in reworks and new releases for the very same quality of life reasons.

With Switch Teleport, my own suggested improvement is to, rather than bake in Safeguard Switch, make it so holding the ability teleports to the target while leaving a Decoy at your previous location, making the current intended maneuver one-button if slightly slower and less energy efficient. The Decoy already acts to be an anchor to teleport exactly where you want, it's just that it's an annoying bit of clunk like Gaara damage stacking or properly using Lavos because you have to keep targeting that spot to set it off while moving and use two buttons to do so. Again, you have Invisibility, now without awkward mid-firefight drops, you don't need much extra survivability.

Radial Disarm is honestly fine with the sheer number of ways there are to avoid melee in the game, let alone Loki screwing with them by tossing Decoys and going invisible. The issue is that it's very rarely worth using even with the augment, and even with your improvement, because you also have a load of ways to avoid being threatened by ranged enemies, with the most direct being just nuking them into oblivion with weapons whenever your Invisibility timer's low to go back to being untargetable. It suffers the issue of all debuff-specific-enemy abilities in that you just kill them in two seconds anyways, so why waste the energy? Consequently, it almost needs the Chaos Sphere treatment, where it keeps disabling enemies in the area as they enter for a decent period of time.

Edited by Banelingline
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I proposed some upgrades/spice up refresh ideas back in 2019 for Loki 🤣

So I've made a few adjustments to the original post to update it to 2021, let me know what you think 😀

 

A few ideas to spice up Loki's abilities with his Trickster/Advanced Stealth style of play

1. Decoy - Loki casts a Decoy that lures enemies to it's position firing it's pistol. The decoy soaks up damage (based on power strength) then explodes with X radiation damage after absorbing X amount of damage with a percentage chance of inflicting a radiation status effect e.g. base of 20% chance to a 80% capped max. Increased power strength would increase the damage done and damage soaked up, and chance of inflicting the radiation status effect. Power Duration would dictate how long the decoy is "alive" for, but the decoy can only soak up enough damage based on power strength calculated health. 

2. Invisibility - when under the effect of invisibility Loki would now have unlimited wall latch duration allowing him to wall latch as long as he is invisible. Invisibility keeps Loki safe, although he gets caught in crossfire if he's on the ground, allowing him to wall latch indefinitely whilst under this effect would keep with his stealth and tactical positioning theme, and allow him to move more efficiently from walls to attack from novel angles. 

3. Switch Teleport - OK... now this ability needs a slight spice up! I'm thinking that in the process of switching with the enemy Loki places a "weak spot" on an enemy like Banshee's Sonar, and the enemy is counted as an Ally causing enemies to attack it briefly based on power duration! 🙂 Holding the button to cast the ability cause Loki to switch places with any active Decoy, without the need to target the Decoy.

4. Radial Disarm - I think radial disarm is a powerful ability... but one that makes Loki super vulnerable when facing high level enemies in melee (as he's squishy!). Maybe this could be offset by radial disarm giving Loki a small armour buff for each enemy disarmed. the bonus armour granted would be based on power strength and would last for a set duration based on power duration. 

New Passive!

Gift of the Trickster

Loki has a permanent 10% velocity/speed bonus to performing parkour movements, 20% when invisible. When turned invisible by any source, Loki gains a "Gift of the Trickster" buff for 3 seconds where he reflects 50% of the damage dealt to him back to enemies as radiation damage (with a 50% chance to proc radiation status). 

LINK to original post in 2019: Loki Update/Partial Re-Work

Edited by ShadowOptics
typos!
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