Leeches

[Zimzala]

Just now, -QueenUnicorn- said:

Or maybe the tools that you deify so heavily aren't as effective as you think they are, 

Its not that these tools aren't used, its that these tools you keep referencing do very little to mitigate the problem

How?

I have never encountered a leacher, so i know the tools work effectively if used.

Can you show me how they can be implemented and not be effective?

I mean, if you gather a team in chat and everyone says they are into the mission and someone was lying and does not participate, OK, perhaps that happens, but beyond that? You just avoid that player and done.

Solo or make your own groups, things the OP immediately shoots down, are the tools available.

A kick system has been shot down for years.

A better matchmaking system would be great, but is not reality.

Each player has the power.

Many seem to think i am defending the idea of leaching, when that is not the case.

I am promoting learning how to shape your game time with the tools provided, but there are players that simply refuse to use them and kvetch the world should revolve around them.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

Just now, BiancaRoughfin said:

Sadly it doesnt always work since you can just let your team play for example 4 waves of a defense mission then half way on the 5th you can just run around shooting random mobs just to deal damage and collecting the drops then return to your corner.

I know, but he’s defending leeches like what they’re doing isn’t against the rules when it clearly is.

We could definitely use better systems to prevent it, I just don’t know what that would look like.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

6 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Sadly it doesnt always work since you can just let your team play for example 4 waves of a defense mission then half way on the 5th you can just run around shooting random mobs just to deal damage and collecting the drops then return to your corner.

It was an MR 30 that asked us why we were running around killing one time in a Hydron run. He basically just wanted to bring the enemies to the middle with speed nova and just stay near the pod. 

[Zimzala]

Just now, Yamazuki said:

You can replace "job" with literally anything if you like. Matchmaking is just an automatic LFG system consenting to completing an objective set by DE. Afking is acceptable in a pre-made group if the group chooses.

Stating a behavior is "bad" isn't being "bent". It's also not "my" rules, it's DE's.

Either way, people have a right to be bothered by people violating rules they agreed to, just as how you're allowed to be emotional about other people being bothered.

"Rights"? WTH does any of this have to do with 'rights'?

There is no social justice war here, just players that refuse to use the tools they are given, including, Solo Mode, Pre-Made Teams, and Reporting Players that break the rules.

[Zimzala]

10 minutes ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

I know, but he’s defending leeches like what they’re doing isn’t against the rules when it clearly is.

We could definitely use better systems to prevent it, I just don’t know what that would look like.

'He' as in me?

If so, this is too funny.

Where have I defended this practice?

[-QueenUnicorn-]

8 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

How?

I have never encountered a leacher, so i know the tools work effectively if used.

Can you show me how they can be implemented and not be effective?

I mean, if you gather a team in chat and everyone says they are into the mission and someone was lying and does not participate, OK, perhaps that happens, but beyond that? You just avoid that player and done.

Solo or make your own groups, things the OP immediately shoots down, are the tools available.

A kick system has been shot down for years.

A better matchmaking system would be great, but is not reality.

Each player has the power.

Many seem to think i am defending the idea of leaching, when that is not the case.

I am promoting learning how to shape your game time with the tools provided, but there are players that simply refuse to use them and kvetch the world should revolve around them.

"I have never encountered a leacher" - anecdotal evidence 101

 

besides that, these "tools" can be ineffective through a multitude of ways, the lack of clear knowledge of how to use them, The game incentivizes play with multiple people an example being relics, rewards being lost if one leaves the mission before making to exit, Solo play can be draining for those unable to actually play solo for a variety of reasons, and many more.

There are other solutions like matching MR rank, or changing how players joining/dropping missions work and many more unexplored ideas

The tools you proclaim simple aren't effective for some people, and it has been repeated almost at nauseum how much they don't work. But saying "suck it up" isn't a solution because clearly the current tools don't work  and doesn't remedy anything.   

[(PSN)Unstar]

1 hour ago, Flint__ said:

They've been a huge problem since forever because there's no way to pick them off except to leave, then they just go find someone else to carry them.

If someone is AFKing, just report them.  Leeching is considered a form of Harassment, so that's the category you should use (source: Rebb).  Then finish the rest of the mission knowing they're going to get theirs.

Now, if you think someone is being "lazy", that's a very subjective thing to think and is not a violation of anything.  You can't and shouldn't report that.  There are plenty of 100% valid reasons for someone to not be playing in the optimal way that you think they should be.  And honestly, if the best way you can describe a behavior you don't like is "lazy", then it's more likely that the problem lies with you and not them.

[Krankbert]

vor 22 Minuten schrieb (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face:

DE literally has systems in place to prevent you from getting rewards if you’re AFK.

It’s clearly against their rules, not sure why you’re defending leeches so hard.

He isn’t defending leeches, he is defending the status quo of the game. The game currently doesn’t have a way to kick players, therefore he will viciously attack anyone who asks for one. It’s what he does, the specific topic doesn’t matter. Just ignore him and move on.

[Berzerkules]

The way affinity is earned, one of the best ways to rank up is to leach. The way DE designed the game encourages leaching. 

[Zimzala]

Just now, -QueenUnicorn- said:

"I have never encountered a leacher" - anecdotal evidence 101

 

besides that, these "tools" can be ineffective through a multitude of ways, the lack of clear knowledge of how to use them, The game incentivizes play with multiple people an example being relics, rewards being lost if one leaves the mission before making to exit, Solo play can be draining for those unable to actually play solo for a variety of reasons, and many more.

There are other solutions like matching MR rank, or changing how players joining/dropping missions work and many more unexplored ideas

The tools you proclaim simple aren't effective for some people, and it has been repeated almost at nauseum how much they don't work. But saying "suck it up" isn't a solution because clearly the current tools don't work  and doesn't remedy anything.   

Yes, I give an example form my experience that proves the tools can be used to avoid players with whom one does not want to play.

And?

Lack of knowledge is on the player. If you think you needs more rewards per minutes, then you have to make the call on your own, PuG or not. Solo play can be draining, how does this even merit a thought? 

The tools are effective ,there are simply some people that don't like how they work.

If you want the tools to work better, then advocate to better matchmaking.

Saying you don't like the tools or they don't work for you is just saying the game is not your thing.

And yes, 'suck it up' is the solution. Accept reality.

You are advocating for DE to be a nanny-state so player never have to encounter other players they don't like to play with which is impossible.

[Zimzala]

3 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

He isn’t defending leeches, he is defending the status quo of the game. The game currently doesn’t have a way to kick players, therefore he will viciously attack anyone who asks for one. It’s what he does, the specific topic doesn’t matter. Just ignore him and move on.

Not true.

I would love, love more code to be added to allow for better matchmaking.

I am advocating people to stop acting like martyrs over another player not dancing to their tune in a PuG, when each player can avoid PuGs.

The leacher haters always, always, want to vilify anyone that does not jump on that hate train, seen this for years.

[PublikDomain]

35 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

I have never encountered a leacher, so i know the tools work effectively if used.

You've never used the tools so you know they work? The tools don't work, you're just too inexperienced to have learned this. 🤦‍♂️

Go play some PUG Railjack right now and tell me there's not a problem with AFKing. People just love to loiter around in turrets for their free meal.

34 minutes ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

We could definitely use better systems to prevent it, I just don’t know what that would look like.

Couple of quick ideas:

• Add a vote-kick. Use metrics like the existing afk timer, average velocity, input rate, distance to enemies, hits/assists/kills, etc. to determine if a player isn't participating much compared to other teammates, and open up voting only if that happens. This info can be added to the existing reporting tools to help support identify real complaints.
• Send notifications when a player you've reported has action taken against them. It'd do a lot to build confidence in the existing systems, which are a black box right now.
• Add a reputation system. In the end-mission screen you can give players kudos or complaints. Over time you build up a reputation score, and have badges that show common traits like "helpful" or "passive". The reputation can decay over time, won't move much with repeated interactions with the same player, clanmates, friends, etc. The matchmaking will prefer matching you with similar reputations, and a setting can be added like the minimum ping limit to set a minimum relative reputation. IE "I don't want to play with someone that has 1000 rep less than me, just let me host a new session".

It's not all that hard to come up with.

16 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

The way affinity is earned, one of the best ways to rank up is to leach. The way DE designed the game encourages leaching. 

Ooh, this too. Adjusting the way Affinity is gained would help a lot to make this kind of behaviour less rewarding.

[Krankbert]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

Not true.

I read this forum a lot and I've never - literally never - seen you not do that. At one point you expressed that you perecived criticism of the game as a personal attack against the developers and every players who likes it. I have seen you openly state that you would be fine with an idea that you vehemently opposed in a thread if the developers chose to put it into the game, and that you were only opposed to it because a player was asking for it.

[Yamazuki]

5 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

"Rights"? WTH does any of this have to do with 'rights'?

As in, they are "allowed" to do so. Meaning, they don't need your permission to state their thoughts, and is not against the rules.

5 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

just players that refuse to use the tools they are given

Complaining on forums is a tool they are given. If no one complains, to any business, that's equivalent to satisfaction. Some changes were made exclusively because of people spamming mindlessly on forums. One would think that after posting over 1k times this would be realized.

5 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Solo Mode

Defeats the purpose of multi-player. Pugging adds variety, and some people actually enjoy playing supportive Warframes.

5 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Pre-Made Teams

Doesn't stop anyone from leeching. Similar to how radshare premades have that one person that deliberately tries sneaking intacts.

You're complaining about others allegedly trying to force a playstyle on others, since apparently leeching is a style, all while you demand people do as you say.

4 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

The way affinity is earned, one of the best ways to rank up is to leach. The way DE designed the game encourages leaching. 

That's only relevant for specific missions, and if leveling anything. People aren't afking for affinity to level weapons/companions, and they're often out of range of it to begin with in any mission that isn't like Hydron/ESO/GP.

[-QueenUnicorn-]

13 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Yes, I give an example form my experience that proves the tools can be used to avoid players with whom one does not want to play.

And?

Lack of knowledge is on the player. If you think you needs more rewards per minutes, then you have to make the call on your own, PuG or not. Solo play can be draining, how does this even merit a thought? 

The tools are effective ,there are simply some people that don't like how they work.

If you want the tools to work better, then advocate to better matchmaking.

Saying you don't like the tools or they don't work for you is just saying the game is not your thing.

And yes, 'suck it up' is the solution. Accept reality.

You are advocating for DE to be a nanny-state so player never have to encounter other players they don't like to play with which is impossible.

"and?" it matters because as you have previously discussed the lack of reliability in anecdotal evidence, any you provide yourself is just as easily dismissed.

You keep stating the tools are effective, but they clearly don't work because its been a recurrent issue in this game for over half a decade now. The tools in place like AFK timers do little to dissuade leeching, and report functions have not tangible impact  for those doing the reporting. Tools are needed that have immediate and noticeable impact on the leeching occurring in the moment.

And No, "Suck it up" isn't the solution because it simply allows the issue to fester. these tools where implemented for the exact reason to avoid leeching, but because leeching continues, the tools need to focus less on the symptoms of the leeching and more on how to prevent leeching itself. 

Affinity works in this game as a method to encourage leeching, that needs to be addressed. Passive reward sharing also acts as a way to encourage leeching. A possible solution is individualizing rewards based on performance, but that would need to be balanced. There are ways and tools to make the situation better, but by road blocking and simply saying  "suck it up" no improvement to the overall game play experience can be had.

 

[ReddyDisco]

Sun rises in the east

Chicken lays eggs

The Mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell

 

Leeches are gonna be there, you report and move on

[Zimzala]

29 minutes ago, -QueenUnicorn- said:

"and?" it matters because as you have previously discussed the lack of reliability in anecdotal evidence, any you provide yourself is just as easily dismissed.

You keep stating the tools are effective, but they clearly don't work because its been a recurrent issue in this game for over half a decade now. The tools in place like AFK timers do little to dissuade leeching, and report functions have not tangible impact  for those doing the reporting. Tools are needed that have immediate and noticeable impact on the leeching occurring in the moment.

And No, "Suck it up" isn't the solution because it simply allows the issue to fester. these tools where implemented for the exact reason to avoid leeching, but because leeching continues, the tools need to focus less on the symptoms of the leeching and more on how to prevent leeching itself. 

The tools work if used.

Show me an example. The AFK timer is not a player tool. Your POV that the report tool should work in real-time is very silly as there is no way DE could staff that. 

Suck it up is the only answer, unless you think you can 'force' DE to make changes that they have not yet been seen to want to make. It's not a gaming democracy.

As I have stated, if this was the 'huge problem' some players think it is, then it would impact DE's bottom line and they would act.

Just because this behavior happens to really, really, REALLY, tick off a portion of the player base, as it does in all multiplayer games, does not mean it's some huge, game-wide problem. 

Again, I would love better matchmaking, I would team if we had some more control, but I Solo because that's the toll available to me to avoid the drama of the leach haters and the play-bosses, etc.

And yes, all I can present is my own anecdotal experience and my thoughts on Why DE has or has not done more in this area.

If you want to make a suggestion to DE about how to improve the game experience, then by all means, there are places for that.

This is the General Forum where we discuss things as players.

Your argument that some players 'just want to PuG' is fine. Those players have the personal responsibility to understand that game mode. "Should' they have to deal with jerks? How is that even a question? The world if full of people who will not agree with you or have your same gaming style/outlook. If you pick a random, you get a random. That's how it works.

"Should" it be different? Who am I to judge? Would I like for matchmaking to be better? I sure would.

The argument wants the game to take care of never placing a player with a group they don't like...we don't have that and if you want it, IMO, asking for a kick function is not the answer, nor is asking DE to make a nanny state where no one has to ever encounter a player they think is a jerk.

[Zimzala]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

Not doing what you sign up for when selecting missions has literally, and factually, nothing to do with "dancing to people's tunes". 

And there are tools to report that player and tools to allow you to leave that mission to avoid that player.

I would love to be able to have a player ignore list that worked in-game, but we don't have that.

Advocate for that if it's what you want, but that's not going to change human behavior.

There will always be players that try to shaft other players in-game, that's reality.

[Digressive]

This thread has devolved into arguing and multiple replies needing to be removed, so I'm going to lock it.

Thanks