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Update 29.10.0: Command Intrinsic Feedback Megathread (Read First Post!)


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please make at least 2 AI crew members available even if 4 players are in team.

Then railjack stays functional if 2-3 players are on a ground mission.

 

Edited by sorcer3r
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3 hours ago, Stalker_says_hello said:

DE is ignoring like 90% of feedback 9nly cares about the liches according to Trello. Boards. 

We are actively reading through feedback, including non-lich related Command points. As the board disclaimer states:

Quote

This board's purpose is to provide an at-a-glance look at what the Warframe team is working on thanks to what your fellow players have constructively discussed.

Discussions around feedback continue outside of the board rest assured. 

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I have 2 pieces of feedback.

-assign the weapon and role to the slot, not the member.  That way when we trash one for one with better stats we don't have to waste time reconfiguring. (edit: on that note, it's a huge pain in the ass to have to bounce between fortuna and a dry dock back and forth first to compare crew, then to fire crew, then hire crew, then assign crew, god help you if you forgot to write everything down first.  Luckily there's an obvious "optimal" set of stats so once we get lucky there we never have to screw with that hassle ever again.)

-set role priorities instead of a single role.  example, the engineer already runs defense when idle, let us have a gunner run defense when there are boarders, or have a gunner run repairs as needed.  Right now it's pointless to have a pilot because nothing actually worthwhile will get done if we do (and doing so effectively deletes artillery as an option, but that's a different mess), and right now it's optimal to have as many zero point skills as possible, but if they had fallback roles it would be a different story.

As far as the intrinsics themselves go, I don't really care.  They are fine.

Edited by mkah_mvet
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My feedback regarding Command Intrinsics is that we are slowly walking into dangerous territory where we have systems to play the game for us. 

I get there are many solo players in this multiplayer game, but DE really needs to be careful as to not just create a gamemode where it's worse to have humans as team mates. This is already starting to show when having gunner AI crew as they can obliterate massive groups of fighters without the element of human error or ability. 

This system is very dangerous for the game and I honestly would like to see it stripped down. That's likely unpopular, but I feel the game would be much healthier if AI team mates weren't allowed to kill enemies at all and just exist as support units (like an Ancient Healer Specter or Shield Osprey Specter). Having Command be a system that prevents the Railjack from being destroyed while solo would still be valuable to the game, but allowing an AI crew to wipe the map while you go make lunch is bad for Warframe and sets horrific precedence.

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Personally I would like it if we could either add mods to the crew or earn more training points the more you use them (IE leveling them up). In addition to that, I'd like the option to equip different helmets onto the crew to add more variety to them (maybe even include some warframe helmets?)

And maybe ephemeras too?

Edited by Helstiir
I forgot about ephemeras
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1 minute ago, Voltage said:

Having Command be a system that prevents the Railjack from being destroyed while solo

with corpus anyway, that is the point of them.  You don't progress the missions by anything crew can do.  Granted my only objective with RJ at this point is to "finish" railjack, not "play" railjack, so I will probably never know how they behave with grineer kill fighter objectives since I'm done with that part.

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The Trello board has been fantastic. Being able to simply take a look at it to see what the team have noticed and are actively working toward is great and adds to overall transparency.

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Just giving my feedback on this topic without reading other posts.

Prior to 29.10, I was at 10/10/10/10 intrinsics with a fully upgraded railjack.

I love the idea of customizing and training my own crew.  It fills the void (pun intended) for a railjack not fully crewed by players.  I like their voice lines as it gives them more character.  I haven't found a way to see their bio, like we do at Ticker.  Still, the limited commands could be better.

Gunners seem pretty competent.

Engineers are also good at repairing hazards, but it would be nice if they could use the forge as well.  When things go well, they have nothing to do so it would be nice for them to refill dome charges.

Defenders don't seem like they should need an assignment.  I would prefer more of a toggle, like [x] leave post to fight boarding parties, that I can assign to any or all crew.

Pilots are...interesting.  They fly around but I haven't found a pattern to it.  A player pilot has priorities, such as to destroy ships, fly to POIs, or take care of objectives.  I would like some way to use them against crewships, where either they or I can use artillery while the other keeps the ship steady.  Otherwise, I've only assigned a pilot when I leave the RJ just so it doesn't sit there taking fire.

 

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1 hour ago, Voltage said:

My feedback regarding Command Intrinsics is that we are slowly walking into dangerous territory where we have systems to play the game for us. 

I get there are many solo players in this multiplayer game, but DE really needs to be careful as to not just create a gamemode where it's worse to have humans as team mates. This is already starting to show when having gunner AI crew as they can obliterate massive groups of fighters without the element of human error or ability. 

The "slowly walking..." doesn't mean anything, either the game plays itself or it doesn't, and anyone who has done lots of the new RJ missions, especially since the latest hotfix, knows full well that RJ Command is nowhere remotely near the game playing itself. Command cannot kill or even effectively disable crewships. Command crews cannot do objectives. Soloing even 1 objective Flexa missions is vastly slower solo and 3 AI crew than with even one additional half-decent human crew member, who can quickly do objectives and crew ships. With 2 even half-decent human crew, the missions can be done near as quickly as old Gian. Unless the team is premade, it's very rare to see a full competent human crew.

Sure, with the 3 human bads one often gets pugging, it can be slower because none of the bads will do the objectives, board crew ships or even man the turrets. Some will actively try to troll and impede the mission. But that reality is not the Command Intrinsic's fault but DE's long-standing flaw of allowing bads or newbs into higher level content prematurely so they can be carried. It's ridiculously easy to get 7 Intrinsics now that allows leeching the higher level missions.

DE has been hyper-viligant over the years in preventing players from botting the game and that will likely continue. New RJ has absolutely no possibility of doing that as it stands, especially in light of the last hotfix. Once the ship is well-built and geared, fighters have always been mostly nuisance anyway and there is no reason to dumb down Command other than possible lock-on delays of gunner crew to get them more like human gunners.

To the thread generally, 1. for whatever reason, Munitions Vortex is mostly useless now, fully charged does almost no damage to gold-barrier stripped crew ships, and the range is pathetic even with good reactors boosting range. 

2. The best turrets manned by humans or AI do pitiful damage on gold-barrier stripped crew ships and needs to be buffed to somewhere between pre hotfix levels and current. Crew ships should of course not be quickly disabled with turrets, but the damage now is pitifully weak.

3. AI crews if using a pilot should at least kill external arrays, without this, soloing some of the longer Grineer missions is beyond tedious now in light of the buffed crew ships and nerfed turret damage. High level Grineer RJ missions are about right at 10-15 minutes solo IMO, not the 20 minute + slogs they have become.

4. As far as Corpus RJ? If I wanted to play Defense, Exterminate or the other non RJ modes, I'd just do those, and not add a frivolous RJ themed front end onto them. Once I got everything from those in a couple sessions, I won't be back to Corpus RJ ever... until they force it on us as a hurdle to progression... as they will inevitably do down the line. I will wager many feel exactly the same way.

5. Engineering, Tactics and Gunnery lvl 10 Intrinsics need to be completely reworked into something different. Tactics is niche and the others ridiculous in light of the larger changes to RJ. Command and Piloting high ranks need to be buffed as to duration and CD.

EDIT 6. Most importantly, if I start the mission, it should always load my ship. And the captain of their ship should be able to LOCK OUT the helm and the dome and override and empty the slingshot from trolls and bads. If this functionality exists, I haven't found it and it is mandatory for pugging. Should have been in the original RJ release. Even though solo missions take much longer, the HIGH risk of bads and trolls in pugs is aggravating.

Edited by Buttaface
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1 hour ago, misterglas said:

Defenders don't seem like they should need an assignment.  I would prefer more of a toggle, like [x] leave post to fight boarding parties, that I can assign to any or all crew.

Yes! That's how it should be.

(and yeah, liches just don't get any assignment. That's fine!)

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There's a lot to love about command thus far, so I'll lead with the biggest positives I've experienced.  This is all from a totally solo player so keep that context in mind.  Apologies if it's a bit of a ramble.

1.  Gunners seem pretty darn good at their jobs, at least my rank five gunner does.  Having just one guy on the turrets is very effective overall and a big help for a solo player with keeping the fighters at bay while off-ship.  If anything, they might be a little too good at their jobs.  I often come out of a point of interest to find my ship unscathed and surrounded by a debris field of drops.

2.  I absolutely love being able to customize my crew with all the stray attachments and syandanas I've picked up but hardly ever use because I have no eye for making good fashion.  And giving them modded weapons out of my ever expanding arsenal of guns that I never use but can't bring myself to throw away makes me irrationally happy.  I've given mine themed sets from their syndicates (as best as I can without everything unlocked) and it's amazing.  It's actually given me new drive to get the rest of the syndicate weapons and whatnot to finish their loadouts.  If anything, I only wish I could arm them a little more fully, like a specter.  Give my Steel Meridian crewmate a full Vaykor loadout, you know?

3.  Having an engineer has made solo play so much smoother.  I don't miss having to run back and forth putting out fires and whatnot myself only to pick up more damage in the course of making the trip (smaller interior helps too) leaving the only sane option to be simply ignoring it until I got a catastrophic breach.

 

Most of my negative feedback (beyond reiterating a bunch of stuff about liches) comes down to pilots.

Pilot behavior isn't great.  I get that this is probably an absolute nightmare to program, heck, one AI class in college was enough to scare me off that subject ever since, but it needs work.  Currently I am hard pressed to see any useful role for a pilot.  When I leave the ship I am better served by just leaving the ship stationary with someone on the guns and the other two defending/repairing.  And when I'm on the ship, having a pilot at the helm renders the artillery and slingshot effectively unusable.

The solution, I think, might be to give the player a way to give more specific orders to the pilot.  Add something to the tactical menu like "pursue primary objective" to send the pilot to take up a holding pattern around the capital ship.  Or "evasive maneuvers" to tell them to floor it.  Better still, a way to designate targets like crewships.  The waypoint system might be the obvious candidate, but if the pilot would point the ship at something long enough for us to waypoint it, we'd already be able to use the slingshot at least.  It'd probably need to be something through the tactical menu, even if it's just as simple as ordering them to target the nearest crewship it'd be enough to get the job done. 

This could also be expanded upon for commanding gunners to fire on mission targets.  I get that having them automatically blast them might feel a bit like letting the game play itself, but perhaps obligating the player to issue the order to an appropriately assigned and skilled crewmember would do enough to keep it feeling interactive and thematic?  Plus, access to orders could be a great way to fill out the intrinsic tiers with something more interesting than slots and points.

That's all "pie in the sky" sort of stuff though, I suppose.  I'm sure that it's a whole heck of a lot easier said than done to add a system like that on top of everything else going on in Railjack already.  Pilot does need something if it's going to be worthwhile to use, though.  Right now it's more of a hindrance than a help.

A more grounded alternative for the artillery would be to allow the player to fire from the pilot seat by commanding a rank five gunner to take the artillery seat.  This would mechanically give the player control, but would come balanced with an opportunity cost of not being able to have that crewmember do anything else while they're on that seat, if just giving the player this ability via an intrinsic is considered too cheap of a barrier to entry.  I can understand being reluctant to pursue this option, of course, from the perspective of it giving the pilot too much power within their role that should be distributed elsewhere.  At the same time, however, I maintain that the artillery and slingshot are functionally useless to a solo player who lets the AI pilot, so this might be a case of picking a poison.  Then again, I'm not sure where we'd bind the artillery on a controller for the pilot.  Maybe map it like a fourth battle mod?  The slingshot could just be given more leeway to aim away from where the ship is currently facing.  Honestly, those might be the most feasible solutions.

And now some random thoughts:

1.  I'd love it if my syndicate crew members would replace the generic NPC's for syndicate missions.  Not a priority I'm sure, but it'd be nice to see.

2.  It goes without saying that I'd love representatives from some of the other syndicates to be available.  Solaris, Ostrons, maybe even Myconians or Quills or even just the people who run the relays.  If the normal Solaris have too many conflicts with their animation rigging, maybe base some off of Little Duck's model and call them Solaris rail agents instead?  I'd believe that Solaris who pilot ships have different rigs than Solaris doing heavy manual labor.

3.  Add a crew lounge/barracks room to the dojo that populates with all the crew you have contracted.  Who wouldn't want their own personal ten-forward?

Edited by UnderRevision
Glaring typo that I somehow missed.
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1 hour ago, Voltage said:

I get there are many solo players in this multiplayer game, but DE really needs to be careful as to not just create a gamemode where it's worse to have humans as team mates.

Railjack is already too easy to be griefed. Players have enough dealing with them in pubs. This is already shows that Railjack rarely work in Public Games where everyone has different interests and goals. You know what most people say what to expect of Command :

I would rather have dumb OBEDIENT AI teammate than dealing with some randoms who doesn’t do their jobs”

Having humans players if they we willing to cooperate are still more efficient than AI, for one humans can do ground objectives while AI cannot. So if you have a full squad you can split up and do all objectives simultaneously.

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If you make one AI change in the near future, it should be to make crew members capable of targeting radiators or other similar objectives (and it should be a top priority for them). 

Even if you park your Railjack right in front of a radiator and have gunners assigned and go into a base and expose the radiator, the gunners will NOT shoot the radiator that is right in front of them. If you assign a pilot, they'll just fly around aimlessly rather than go to a base with an exposed radiator and destroy it.

This means that soloing missions with these types of objectives take just as long as if the crew intrinsic still didn't exist. I have to exit the ship, expose a radiator, go back to the ship, manually shoot it myself, then go back to the base and do it again. In some missions there are two bases with these objectives, which takes a lot of time going back and forth pointlessly because your crew is too dumb to shoot at an exposed radiator. 

I also think there's a bug where a crew member can get stuck in a gunner seat. I tried to assign a gunner to pilot once, came back to the ship, nobody was in pilot seat, so I check to see where he is. He's assigned to pilot but he's stuck in a gunner seat. If you re-assign him to gunner, he says he can not comply (I guess because the seat is already taken by him?). You can assign him to any other role, he won't get out of the gunner seat but if you re-assign to gunner from any other role, he says he can't comply. 

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Still missing out on half my affinity earned for my necramech and companions when finishing a railjack mission because I don't get any mission completion affinity. Specifically noticed in Railjack Defense.

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I LOVE MY CREW! 

However, there are a few things I like to see.

1. Either give us the ability to command our pilot to "stand down", or allow us to control the RJ from the FA seat. It's annoying to keep running back and forth, while trying to fire at 3 weak points.

2. Our pilot should be able to "boost" and "drift".

3. Back in the day, there was a released sketch of Red Veil helm designs. I can't find it now, but I was wondering if we could obtain different helmets for our crew. Either through their syndicates, a drop in the RJ table, etc.

4. It's about time our operators got syndicate uniforms.

 

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8 minutes ago, GrazeZeroLow said:

I LOVE MY CREW! 

However, there are a few things I like to see.

1. Either give us the ability to command our pilot to "stand down", or allow us to control the RJ from the FA seat. It's annoying to keep running back and forth, while trying to fire at 3 weak points.

2. Our pilot should be able to "boost" and "drift".

3. Back in the day, there was a released sketch of Red Veil helm designs. I can't find it now, but I was wondering if we could obtain different helmets for our crew. Either through their syndicates, a drop in the RJ table, etc.

4. It's about time our operators got syndicate uniforms.

 

agreed.gif

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1. normal crew= customizable color, armor, syandana  >   kuva lich= non customizable

2. normal crew= can grab full modded weapons   >   kuva lich= nope

3. normal crew= can select perk   >   kuva lich= defeeeeeeeeeeeenceeeeeee (remember agor rok's engineer perk from tennocon, did u forgot it DE?)

ll

usual merc borrow ur ship's seat : just pay little credits and resource >>> grineer elite commander aka capital ship owner : 2.5~3.5 hour hard grinding with painful RNG

 

yeah, it makes no sense

u know, full covered mask kuva lich is unique, and if that lich's both arms and legs are symmetrical that mean more rarity, that's good for end game collecting and runs lich market more actively, but there are disappointments that usual crew is better than end game crew,

 

1. color pallet of lich's each elements are limited (ex, if u want pure white and black color pallet u must spawn cold lich, even u don't want cold lich's skill group), and can't equip armors and syandanas not like ususal crews, u know, if that is available, grineer style market syandanas and tennogen syandanas's sales performance will increase, imagine graxx spitefire syandana or jattuk mantle on lich's back

2. weapon swap must be available, it's sucks that usual crews can equip full modded weapon while grineer high commanders pewpew with kraken and stubbas non modded. 

3. where are classified kuva lich's class from tennocon? did u forgot engineer agor rok?

+ hope kuva lich can changes it's progenitor shoulder deco in same element group (ex, mirage normal helmet -rad  -> octavia prime helmet -rad), for more fashionframe. it's actually not a randaom option, that can be selected by larvling stabber.

 

i know kuva lich crew is not fully updated yet cause their voice line on railjack is none, hope this be solved asap.

btw, even lich crews are useless i'll just collect them for collection.

Spoiler
 
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13 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

We are actively reading through feedback, including non-lich related Command points. As the board disclaimer states:

I'd say that even if it was true paying attention to 10% of the feedback is impressive considering the shear amount of it. Wonder what the average feedback receive to devs ratio is!

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15 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

We are actively reading through feedback, including non-lich related Command points. As the board disclaimer states:

Discussions around feedback continue outside of the board rest assured. 

Thanks Dani. Btw its good to see you on the forums more ^.^ 

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a lot of the skill tree feels useless. feels "the same" . it should rather be "unlock three crewmates" at lets say skill 1, and then at skill five, "unlock three training points" . but the present ones right now feels more like a neat thing to buy at the market and be done with it, rather than something you use actively. 

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I still find it silly that an advanced, on board AI can't do simple things like turn on a fire suppression system, run preplanned evasion routes or use the Forge to keep supplies up. It can't even do what the computer in a current day vehicle like a Tesla can do. 

Yes, I realize it's a multiplayer game and with a team of 4 players, but who wants to be an order clerk, a fireman or hull repairman?  Everyone wants to be an away team assassin, not in the rear with the gear.

That's what Command Intrinsic should be IMO, not just some hired crewmates. Get rid of the AI if all it can do is provide witty repartee.

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loving the new update so far, but was a bit of a let down to see that the on-call crew member disappears after 3 minutes, with a 10 minute cooldown. I think it would feel better if it were 5 minutes on either one. Or have the time limit removed entirely, but if the crew member dies start a 10+ minute cooldown.

Really like the rest of the update though. :) Keep it up.

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Hello!

I for one an really loving the new crew system! It's been really great seeing all the new little stories and personalities, and enjoying the A+ va work. It really brings the ship alive a bit for those of us who are interested in immersion and worldbuilding. 

 

That being said, I would love to see the factions we can get crew from expanded, and I figure this is as good a place as any to make that request.

It would be really really great if you guys could implement if you could, at a minimum, implement Solaris crew!! They were the originally in the mix from what you showed on the dev streams. I'm guessing they were pulled from the pool for functionality and/or lack of customizability reasons, but frankly I would gladly give up being able to fashion frame them just to have members of my favorite warframe faction available. (Honestly the animation for the Steel Meridian lady crew looks like it was originally for a Solaris anyway, what with the random large wrench she's leaning on?)

So uh yeah. Solaris Please? So I can properly staff my SU Themed railjack ;D ?

Building on this, Ostron crew might be fun as well - from what I recall in the codex, the non Cetus Ostrons are actually a spacefaring nomadic people. 

While their floating markets may ply the rails of the Origin system, Cetus is the Ostron home: a trading hub where travelers from across the system meet to exchange information, wares and plunder in safety, protected by the Unum-enforced laws of barter and parley - free from the influence of Grineer and Corpus.

- "Cetus" fragment from the thousand year fish series.

Konzu also references his uncle running into infestation out at the edges of the system. Given all this, some Ostrons might want to ride along with the tenno to see old orokin structures or get some revenge on the grineer for being buttfaces.

 

Finally we have the Entrati faction, which is the least likely to be implemented. The best I can come up with is some kinda tiny Necramech, a Loid/Otak style drone hooked up to a skeletal body armature, or maybe a stranded 'survivor' Like Garv & Latrox.

Heck maybe just let us hire Garv or Latrox :D?

 

Also Baro should obviously offer Prisma Crew: they're just like normal crew but have a love of diamonds and cost ducats!

 

Thank you DE for all your hard work, and have a lovely weekend!!!

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Gunner AI Crew have now been slowed way down. They start off well, but then just stop altogether for a relatively long period of time. Then they start up again after awhile, but whatever was done was a bit overdone. Also, now far more fighters spawn after they have supposedly been called off. I guess it works, but is not really immersive.

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The command intrinsic themselves are ok. Most of the issues are AI issues.

Pilots are currently cowards they need to be set at the minimum to always face the closest Crewship doesn't matter if they strafe or circle strafe while doing so they just need to stop turning their backs. I am not going to complain about them not using avionics because that could cause other issues.

Gunners are mostly ok they just need to be able to prioritize targets, including pop up radiators they currently ignore entirely. I am not going to complain they don't use the dome because I frankly would like more to do as a player.

Engineer does fine. Some may want it to handle things in the forge, but again I kind of want more to do even as primarily a solo player.

Defenders are fine. 

I'm not a fan of the hired crewmembers also having random base stats to account for when getting them from ticker. There is also an issue when changing crew members that develops the more crew members you have, it starts to rear it's ugly head at 10 and gets progressively worse, if the freeze doesn't crash you the long loading circle after will make you crazy.( I do not know if the amount of Lich options has an affect, but day one I did have two hard locks when in that menu while viewing Lich, and I have a good number of Lich)

As a purely unrelated side note. The slight lowering of damage felt better, but in my opinion could go much further, but then I guess as someone wanting to be engaged I may be an outlier, because I really enjoyed the amount of management of solo railjack play on release, minus the bugs. Just my opinion.. The removal of a somewhat balanced flux system, for an entirely not balanced energy system that can be exploited was a bad decision, and I would have rather seen a fix like not allowing clients to use all of the hosts flux instead, but as a solo player I miss it because it gave me a system to manage, much like the repairs and hazards during combat that was highly engaging, and very satisfying.

I would not mind some Volatile missions outside railjack. I found the game mode refreshing, and engaging, sort of like old railjack.

It's kind of like snow skiing, I am all about steep+moguls for days, or fresh powder out of bounds, but after the wrecking crew comes through and grooms the slopes, I lose interest as flat isn't my thing.

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