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Railjack gunnery turret change


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4 minutes ago, Hierarch777 said:

Since the side-guns will be moved to the top and bottom of the ship, does that mean we'll be able to equip 3 different turrets? 


Likely not, it will probably just be the same sideguns we use now, just in a different orientation. Would be nice to change them individually though.

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39 minutes ago, Hierarch777 said:

Since the side-guns will be moved to the top and bottom of the ship, does that mean we'll be able to equip 3 different turrets? 

umm  let me get this question straight first.. we have 2 side turrets right, then you ask, when they are moved we are able to equip 3 turrets?  wheres the 3rd turret come from?

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1 hour ago, -AncientWarrior- said:

umm  let me get this question straight first.. we have 2 side turrets right, then you ask, when they are moved we are able to equip 3 turrets?  wheres the 3rd turret come from?

 

2 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Why would you think this?

moving turrets to top and bottom means two side turrets to the top and bottom... 2 from sides to 1 top and 1 bottom....

 

1 hour ago, Ailia_Grimm said:

I sometimes question the logic of people

I'd presume OP is inferring that maybe the side guns were the same for symmetry purposes and may be wondering if vertical symmetry will be kept or removed because an asymmetrical layout makes sense for a vertical orientation (As it would effectively remain visually symmetrical).

Edited by Jarriaga
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8 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

 

 

I'd presume OP is inferring that maybe the side guns were the same for horizontal symmetry purposes and may be wondering if vertical symmetry will be kept or removed because an assymetrical layout makes sense for a vertical orientation.

Why would symmetrical or asymmetrical layouts for vertical orientation matter?

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7 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Why would symmetrical or asymmetrical layouts for vertical orientation matter?

Because gun asymmetry in a ship is less jarring in a vertical orientation than in an horizontal orientation.

OP's inquiry is not unreasonable.

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34 minutes ago, -AncientWarrior- said:

umm  let me get this question straight first.. we have 2 side turrets right, then you ask, when they are moved we are able to equip 3 turrets?  wheres the 3rd turret come from?

Presently you can equip two turrets, but one of them is used by the pilot while both of the two gunnery seats use a copy of the second.

 

It would be really nice if you could choose a third turret, particularly if simply not equipping a third would allow both gunners to use the same gun as they do now. I've had a few crews where there's multiple people who would like to be on turret, but would prefer different weapons.

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5 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Because gun asymmetry in a ship is less jarring in a vertical orientation than in an horizontal orientation.

OP's inquiry is not unreasonable.

But you can still have asymmetrical layout with two guns... I still don't really follow why symmetry has any bearing to whether or not using the guns is jarring. Can you elaborate on this a bit?

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vor 12 Minuten schrieb Leqesai:

But you can still have asymmetrical layout with two guns...

The ship is symmetrical along a vertical axis. You can't have a symmetrical layout with a vertical axis of symmetry and different guns on the sides. You need the guns on both sides of the axis to be identical.

Different guns on top and bottom don't matter, because the axis of symmetry isn't horizontal anyway.

Edited by Krankbert
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16 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

But you can still have asymmetrical layout with two guns... I still don't really follow why symmetry has any bearing to whether or not using the guns is jarring. Can you elaborate on this a bit?

Sure.

Currently, you have 3 gun slots. 1 for the pilot, and 2x for the gunners. In the current layout (Horizontal), the gunner guns are mirrored because the viewpoint gap of left vs right is very wide, which makes layouts such as the current one quite impractical:

Left: Slow/powerful gun.

Right: Fast/weak gun.

The pilot can not realistically compensate the practicality of such guns when maneuvering because the pilot is likely going to strafe or circle around enemies with a preferred trajectory (To the right in my case). This in turn affects the viability of guns and are mirrored so they are more or less equally effective.

That impracticality is gone with a vertical orientation because all 3 points of view (Pilot, gunner 1, gunner 2) are all moving in the same direction even when maneuvering. This means that:

- It´s easier for 2 or more players to target the exact same enemies.

- Equipping a gun to deal with specific enemies (Different element for example) is more forgiving as the pilot doesn't need to maneuver in a specific orientation. This is particularly important now that the pilot won't be able to shoot when boosting.

That's why I believe OP's inquiry is not unreasonable. An assymetrical vertical orientation for guns removes the need to mirror/symmetry the horizontal side guns.

Also this:

7 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

The ship is symmetrical along a vertical axis. You can't have a symmetrical layout with a vertical axis of symmetry and different guns on the sides. You need the guns on both sides of the axis to be identical.

Different guns on top and bottom don't matter, because the axis of symmetry isn't horizontal anyway.

Edited by Jarriaga
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12 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Sure.

Currently, you have 3 gun slots. 1 for the pilot, and 2x for the gunners. In the current layout (Horizontal), the gunner guns are mirrored because the viewpoint gap of left vs right is very wide, which makes layouts such as the current one quite impractical:

Left: Slow/powerful gun.

Right: Fast/weak gun.

The pilot can not realistically compensate the practicality of such guns when maneuvering because the pilot is likely going to strafe or circle around enemies with a preferred trajectory (To the right in my case). This in turn affects the viability of guns and are mirrored so they are more or less equally effective.

That impracticality is gone with a vertical orientation because all 3 points of view (Pilot, gunner 1, gunner 2) are all moving in the same direction even when maneuvering. This means that:

- It´s easier for 2 or more players to target the exact same enemies.

- Equipping a gun to deal with specific enemies (Different element for example) is more forgiving as the pilot doesn't need to maneuver in a specific orientation. This is particularly important now that the pilot won't be able to shoot when boosting.

That's why I believe OP's inquiry is not unreasonable. An assymetrical vertical orientation for guns removes the need to mirror/symmetry the horizontal side guns.

Also this:

Well having read through this I still don't really understand. I think this might be one of those things I am just not smart enough to understand. I mean.. If one of the vertical guns is at the front of the ship and one is at the back of the ship it would technically be asymmetrical right? And it would also avoid the issues created with horizontal alignment right?

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vor 10 Minuten schrieb Leqesai:

Well having read through this I still don't really understand. I think this might be one of those things I am just not smart enough to understand. I mean.. If one of the vertical guns is at the front of the ship and one is at the back of the ship it would technically be asymmetrical right?

But it isn't. That's not where the guns are mounted on the railjack. There isn't one at the front and one at the back, they're both at the same place on the side. What in the world are you talking about? Stop nitpicking and get back to what the Railjack actually looks like.

Edited by Krankbert
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Just now, Krankbert said:

But it isn't. That's not where the guns are mounted on the railjack. What in the world are you talking about?

Two things:

1: I was using a hypothetical to explain vertical asymmetry as far as I understand/misunderstand it.

2: We have not seen where exactly the guns will be located on the new Railjack. I am not talking about the current mount points.

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vor 3 Minuten schrieb Leqesai:

Two things:

1: I was using a hypothetical to explain vertical asymmetry as far as I understand/misunderstand it.

Well, then stop. No one cares that a hypothetical railjack could be asymmetrical with side guns. The existing one that people are talking about isn't. You're not merely misunderstanding, you're deliberately making an effort to miss the point.

Edited by Krankbert
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13 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Well having read through this I still don't really understand. I think this might be one of those things I am just not smart enough to understand. I mean.. If one of the vertical guns is at the front of the ship and one is at the back of the ship it would technically be asymmetrical right? And it would also avoid the issues created with horizontal alignment right?

Technical asymmetry? Depends on what you're measuring. Gameplay asymmetry vs geometrical/aesthetical asymmetry.

Geometrical and aesthetical symmetry is measured from the front across a vertical slit across the center. From that perspective, the current layout (Mirrored left/right) is symmetrical and would be asymmetrical if the guns on the left and the right would be different. That doesn't happen with guns that are at the top/bottom/front/back as your viewpoint from the front will split them all across the vertical slit,  keeping geometrical symmetry even if all 4 guns were different.

But yes, top/bottom and front/back both address the issues created with the left/right mirroring orientation. That's precisely why DE are changing the placement.

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20 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Well, then stop. No one cares that a hypothetical railjack could be asymmetrical with side guns. The existing one that people are talking about isn't. You're not merely misunderstanding, you're deliberately making an effort to miss the point.

Angry Full House GIF

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19 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Technical asymmetry? Depends on what you're measuring. Gameplay asymmetry vs geometrical/aesthetical asymmetry.

Geometrical and aesthetical symmetry is measured from the front across a vertical slit across the center. From that perspective, the current layout (Mirrored left/right) is symmetrical and would be asymmetrical if the guns on the left and the right would be different. That doesn't happen with guns that are at the top/bottom/front/back as your viewpoint from the front will split them all across the vertical slit,  keeping geometrical symmetry even if all 4 guns were different.

But yes, top/bottom and front/back both address the issues created with the left/right mirroring orientation. That's precisely why DE are changing the placement.

Gotcha. That makes a lot of sense and I appreciate your explanation.

 

I still don't really understand how this relates to the TC's original question though. 

2 hours ago, Hierarch777 said:

Since the side-guns will be moved to the top and bottom of the ship, does that mean we'll be able to equip 3 different turrets? 

Even though what you say is true, why would we be able to equip 3 different turrets? There are only two turrets regardless of where they are placed. 

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6 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Gotcha. That makes a lot of sense and I appreciate your explanation.

 

I still don't really understand how this relates to the TC's original question though. 

Even though what you say is true, why would we be able to equip 3 different turrets? There are only two turrets regardless of where they are placed. 

The OP is referring to the 2 gunner turrets no longer being mirrored. This effectively means 3 different total guns, which is not practical in the current left/right placement because of the movement issue, but would not be a problem in top/bottom or front/back placements.

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7 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

The OP is referring to the 2 gunner turrets no longer being mirrored. This effectively means 3 different total guns, which is not practical in the current left/right placement because of the movement issue, but would not be a problem in top/bottom or front/back placements.

Ohhhhhhh

Wow I finally fully understand. Jeez...

I need to stop doing warframe forums at work. It is embarrassing that it took me this long to get it.

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2 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Ohhhhhhh

Wow I finally fully understand. Jeez...

I need to stop doing warframe forums at work. It is embarrassing that it took me this long to get it.

 

We all have days like that. I have them reguarly.

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