Jump to content
Dante Unbound: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

New Railjack isnt Railjack anymore


Taiepii

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, NoLazyShadow said:

Make points of intrests optinal or mix them with dogfighting OR let players complete any of those: either you do points of intrests before boarding or you clear out the space

Points of Interest are already optional and already mixed in with dogfighting. You can also run them after mission completion, near as I can tell. In fact, every mission I ran clearing Venus Proxima had at least one Point of Interest (the Orokin Obelisk) and multiple had two. One had a ship attached to a comet firing ice shards at my Railjack, one had a fighter carrier that I hacked and disabled permanently. Don't get me wrong - I'm not opposed to adding even more Points of Interest as those really are the highlight of Railjack. Just... What is your disagreement with this model?

 

1 hour ago, NoLazyShadow said:

Endless railjack missions also would've been a great addition

Depends on what you mean by "endless." Railjack Defence is endless, though it's the ground portion that is. I wouldn't be opposed to an endless space combat mission, certainly, but it would have to be something more complex than just a never-ending dogfight. Warframe already has a serious issue of simplistic objectives reducing the game to just "shoot the dudes again, until further notice." I would hope DE aren't going to keep adding to it. In fact, I'm genuinely surprised that Defence of all things was among the first mission types reintroduced to Railjack. Defence sucks ass and is easily the game's worst, least compelling mode. Why that? It can't have been easier to do, given they had to kludge in the Evac/Remain prompt in a really awkward fashion.

 

1 hour ago, gbjbaanb said:

Still, railjack is now pretty much ground combat (and bugs, oh the bugs!) with a bit of space combat thrown in as an aside to get you there (assuming you can enter the ground combat phase - ohhh, those bugs). I can;t see the point if all you're doing is running a defence or extermiate mission, you might as well do them on the normal starchart!

How are you figuring that? There's plenty of Railjack content outside of the core mission type. If all you do is skip past the Railjack session rushing for mission completion then sure - you won't see a lot of either space or points of interest. But... Well, they're there. Like I said above - every mission I ran had 1-2 optional Points of Interest, which ran me through a fair bit of space combat. At least comparable to a Veil Proxima Skirmish, at the very least. Sure, you can rush past that, but you can rush past a majority of Warframe content. Free Roam maps barely benefit from being Free Roam when players just Archwing from point to point. Assassination missions might as well spawn you at the boss since everyone just bullet-jumps past 1 Km of enemies. Corpus Proxima missions allow you to interface with as much - or as little - of Railjack as you wish. I like the core combat system, so I've done a considerable amount of it in every mission I've run so far.

Moreover, yes - I could have run a regular Extermination mission if all I wanted was an Extermination. That's not all I wanted, however. I wanted an Extermination mission INSIDE OF a Railjack mission. I want the ability to travel from ship to ship and wage ground warfare within them. I want to fly between Alad V's rigs on Jupiter and visit multiple of them per run. I want to freely swim between underwater labs in Uranus' oceans. If I had my way, I'd entirely deprecate ground missions altogether and replace them fully with the existing Railjack implementation. Would give us a perfect use for our Landing Craft, too. Want to run a mission without a Railjack? Manually pilot your Landing Craft to approach an enemy vessel, dock with it and deposit your Warframe inside. Do well and you get to attack the enemy with their pants down. Get spotted and you're jumping into a waiting security team.

Railjack has a lot more potential to it than JUST a space fighting sim. If anything, the space fighting sim is easily the least compelling aspect of it. It's there because it has to be in order for the system to make sense, but it's the combined arms approach of stacking all our tools that truly make this mode special. So yes - you need to have less Railjack in order to have at least some of literally everything else in the game. The overall Railjack framework is what draws me to the system far more so than the fish-looking spaceship.

 

1 hour ago, gbjbaanb said:

So restoring space-combat only skirmish in makes a lot of sense. However, as was mentioned in the devblog, they deliberately removed this because those skirmish missions were what most people were playing. So in other words, they removed it because it was the most fun and gave us normal missions but with a bit of railjack instead.

As we've established before, as DE themselves have outright stated, this simply isn't the case. Things don't get nerfed because they're fun. Things get nerfed because they displace other things which are more fun. YOU appear to like predominantly space ship combat missions. OK, fair enough, but that's a highly reductive view of Railjack. I prefer a combined arms approach. If the most efficient way to play Railjack is also the most efficient, then that's going to kill adoption of the system long-term and completely burn out the majority of the playerbase. I have to keep reminding people that this game is chiefly about Warframe combat. Everything else we have - from Operators to Archwings to Necramechs to the Railjack itself - is a tool to support that gameplay. The legacy Railjack mode almost entirely lacks the core Warframe gameplay and that's one of the reasons for its low adoption - on top of multiple other things, of course. Bringing more of the reason for which a majority of people come to Warframe into Railjack is not a bad thing.

Without wishing to accuse or presuppose: If you choose to deliberately skip the not-insubstantial Railjack aspect of Corpus Proxima missions, then I have to question whether Railjack really is what draws you to them. You're given a choice to have dogfights and explore Points of Interest outside the primary objective, so why not do that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

YOU appear to like predominantly space ship combat missions

That's not true. I do like space combat missions when I'm doing Railjack. And I do like the ground combat missions when I'm doing normal warframe.

What I don't like is having to do both when I only want to do one.

I can do the railjack mission, but then I'm still stuck with being forced to do a ground combat mission at the end. So given the squad are now people trying it out and don't know all the POIs or other things are even there, we end up being pulled into the ground combat mission anyway as it only takes 1 person to enter the target. As you say there are loads of features in railjack to do, then why would they need to slap on the ground mission anyways. Might as well just do the other parts and not even have any ground missions at all (except maybe in one or two of the mission nodes perhaps). That's our problem, we're forced to do those ground combat missions - they are the goal. The railjack is absolutely the means to get there, by design. Obviously.

 

Most people didn't play RJ because they tried it and had no way to know what to do. So they gave up and went back to normal missions. The remaining few who were lucky enough to be told, played it a lot because it was great fun. and we played the skirmish missions like Gian Point because that was entirely railjack missions without the ground combat elements. DE has faile dto appreciate both these things - we now get ground combat as the primary purpose of the node, and still have no tutorial of what to do in the railjack!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, gbjbaanb said:

The remaining few who were lucky enough to be told, played it a lot because it was great fun. and we played the skirmish missions like Gian Point because that was entirely railjack missions without the ground combat elements. 

A lot of people played gian point because it was quick rewards. Not because it was explicitly fun over other missions. I actually found most other mission types more fun, just not rewarding enough for the time spent to justify grinding anywhere other than the quickest node. Most of the time I found gian point boring because a pilot would kill everything with tether and the leftover roles are afk engineering or mostly afk FA. 

I do hope that they introduce a pure railjack survival, as I find the core experience fun. But, I don't want it to take away from the other mission types because they feel much more like an appropriate mission to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, NecroPed said:

A lot of people played gian point because it was quick rewards.

I suppose a lot did, but I know many who played Gian point even after their RJ was fully modded up because htey liked the RJ experience. They did play a few other nodes, but not as much or as often. Many people play endless survival missions in the normal starchart, I'd say only a few do that for fun - most do it for the loot. Nobody suggests removing the survival mission nodes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i must say, i like the direction they are taking with Railjack, the combination of Space fights and Missions with Warframes plays really well.

DE could improve it with combining Objectives inside the Ships with Railjack objectives, for Defense and Exterminate Missions it could be something like this:

- Defense: the Railjack Crew can lower the amount of Enemies Spawned and thus shorten the time of waves by shooting down the reinforcements entering the ship from outside.

- Exterminate: As the Away Crew slaugthers the Crew of the enemy Ship the Railjack Crew can destroy escapepods that contain the VIP´s leaving the ship for additional progress on the extermination Mission.

So if both teams work together the time the Missions take could be reduced.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, gbjbaanb said:

I suppose a lot did, but I know many who played Gian point even after their RJ was fully modded up because htey liked the RJ experience. They did play a few other nodes, but not as much or as often. Many people play endless survival missions in the normal starchart, I'd say only a few do that for fun - most do it for the loot. Nobody suggests removing the survival mission nodes.

I'm skeptical that only a few would play survival for loot over fun. Last I heard it was the most played game mode in Warframe, surely that has something to do with it being enjoyable. It's basically just Warframe gameplay at it's core, so if people aren't playing survival for fun, than are they even playing Warframe because they find it fun?

I'd be more inclined to say the location of the survival (Rather than the choice of game mode) is determined by loot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After having cleared the new starchart and playing more , here's my new updated impressions , keep in mind i'll mostly be talking about the solo experience since the coop experience is currently nearly unplayable due to all the issues making it very unlikely you will be able to complete the mission without being stuck unable to vote to return to dojo or having other similar issues.. So solo it is for now. Also note I mostly play Exterminate and Defense, not because I like these, but because the other modes are badly balanced for a single player squad and a failure in the ground part means forfeiting everything I looted beforehand . Once this gets adressed i'll be more likely to go into stuff like Volatile and Orphix Venom, but for now , I'll stay in ground missions where there are no failure states after 10 seconds of not shooting a pipe or not being fast enough to take out orphixes solo :

  • I actually like the Railjack Part of missions. No surprise there, it's still really fun to drop out of your ship ,explore these side areas, keeping an eye on the health of your ship and doing all of the new Railjack content is pretty fun. Some missions have pretty sizeable Railjack Parts when you add in the derelict + a couple small bases you can tacked for unidentified items and the main controntation, and even have cool commanders to dispatch. I usually feel like I did what I had to do in the mission by the time this part is over , that it should end there on a high note.
  • Then comes the point in a mission where you have to enter the "starchart" section, and it's where the whole momentum of the mission comes crashing down, along with the illusion your are in a dynamic linked world between RJ and ground.
  • Everyone is forced to go into a loading zone, then they load into a meh starchart experience while the Railjack is totally removed from the world. Then you have to do that task, which is most of the time not particularly fun and takes too long, then you all gotta wait at extraction for the permission to warp and leave the zone.
  • I've had alot of fun ignoring the starchart section and just running around the capital starship fighting the enemies that spawn... Sadly they only come in packs of four and there's not really any challenge there, but it makes you wonder how much better the whole thing would be instead of forcing you into a starchart mission , the conclusion was a proper Railjack + Ground combo scenario.

My Proposition:

Keep the missions as they are until you reach the final objective (where the starchart mission has to be done).

Once at that point in the mission , allow two different choices on a per player basis :

A - The player stays in the Railjack and attempt to destroy the ship / complete the objective from the outside. It would be a simple fight where you deplete a certain amount of fighters / crewships and occasionally have to destroy security orbs on the capital ship, maybe shoot a couple weak points here and there and do some light infiltration of smaller bases.

B - The player goes into the starchart mission and completes the objective there. If everyone goes to the ground mission, the RJ part gets paused like it is now.

C - ... Or a mixture of both... Like let's say the pilot stays outside and he destroys security orbs from the outside while the rest of the team infiltrates the base to do the starchart mission. In this case the teams would cooperate in completing objectives... For example if it's an exterminate mission, RJ kills count the same as Corpus Kills inside the ground mission  making it go faster. In defense Mission, the RJ player has to defend that cool pulsating satellite thing you added in the new corpus rj tilesets  while the Ground teams defends the cryopod AND it will shave off two waves off the total number of waves per rotation... If it's Volatile the outside team shoots the weak points in real time as the temperature from within makes it bursts, in orphix venom it could go a similar route than Scarlet Spear, with the RJ team doing something to send codes to weaken the orphixes...Like shooting anomalies and sentient ships that spawn outside and can make the next orphix that spawn for the ground team spawn open without having to shoot the anomalies.

Point being , player would have a choice between RJ, Ground Mission, or a mix, and each would be a viable choice. Love RJ , you'll be able to do the objective from outside , only it will be harder and longer if nobody is doing the ground . Difficulty would scale based on the number of players , so if three players stay behind in RJ and one goes for an orphix venom run, well the orphix venom mission will scaled like if a solo player was doing it, and vice versa... Likewise the AI crew returns if 3/4 of the RJ crew leaves to do the ground part.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

this would be great, and i think this is where DE wants to go with the content, but the Missions we have right now are the first step to get there, with the Peer to Peer nature of the game, i think they are trying to minimize the load on the host with the seperation of the two missions.

If they implemented what you are suggesting the host would have to sustain two completely different Missions with a lot of added load to keep everything in sync. This could result in a POE like experience for players with not that powerfull rigs as they wouldnt be suitable as hosts and would have problems playing those missions at all.

But i certainly would love tho play the modes as you discribed them. it would add aditional value to the Teleport intrinsics as you could swap positions if either crew needs help.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I genuinely hate how old, on-foot missions are now being stuffed in our faces in such absurd amounts. 

If I wanted to play more Corpus Defense I have the entire star chart for that, thank you very much. 

And now? I enter a Railjack mission, fully expecting an epic battle with a capital ship, a small army of crewships and a swarm of fighters. 

Instead, I get to chase Jammer Drones half a kilometer there and back again in a convoluted, borky environment, play Mobile Defense on a Freight-linker or sabotage crewship after crewship from the inside because fighting them from outside is even more messy. And when I finally board that capital ship, I have to clear a bad old Exterminate or Defense node and I can't even duke it out with that captain that's been getting on my nerves over the comms this whole time. Disappointed.

I *loved* Gian Point for what it was - a sole mission where I could invite a friend for that artillery seat and blast the whole damn thing without ever caring what warframe I even have equipped. 

Now? I am *forced* to clear on-foot sections everywhere. 

Nobody asked you to make Railjack a taxi. Nobody asked you for missions that are best played with your railjack buried tail-down in some geometry. But this is what we got. And this is NOT a good direction at all. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Reifnir:

Nobody asked you to make Railjack a taxi. Nobody asked you for missions that are best played with your railjack buried tail-down in some geometry. But this is what we got. And this is NOT a good direction at all. 

That is exactly what players have asked for when Railjack first released tho...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

That is exactly what players have asked for when Railjack first released tho...

What we asked for *initially* was a seamless integration with open-world missions, shield emitters and whatnot. DE never delivered, then scarlet spear turned out to be a relay-hopping mess and the whole thing was shelved.

And certainly nobody asked for a costly, glorified LOADING SCREEN minigame with turrets and HP bar - because this is what current railjack is - a minigame you play on a loading screen before a "real" mission begins. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, NoLazyShadow said:

Sounds a lot like Railjack in its first days: leave it somewhere and do all the work with arch. Good job DE

They keep doing this.  They keep making "railjack" content that penalizes you for using your railjack.

 

On another note, I was hoping that this update would give gunners something useful to do.  Alas.  There's still no point to the guns.

 

All told, I think Corpus RJ does have promise.  I'm not super annoyed by the railjack prelude into a standard Warframe mission.  I think that many of the people complaining about that aren't noticing the amount of rewards you get.  Seven Sirens on Pluto Proxima is longer than your standard exterminate mission, sure.  But you're getting more stuff too.  I'm going to withhold judgment a while longer, I think, while waiting on the void relic/fissure integration in RJ.  But in the meantime, to get back to my first point, I'll be parking my RJ far enough away so that my NPC crew can keep it safe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Darkuhn said:

DE could improve it with combining Objectives inside the Ships with Railjack objectives, for Defense and Exterminate Missions it could be something like this:

- Defense: the Railjack Crew can lower the amount of Enemies Spawned and thus shorten the time of waves by shooting down the reinforcements entering the ship from outside.

Idea like that are great ! 
They coded something similar during Scarlet Spear event.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, gbjbaanb said:

That's not true. I do like space combat missions when I'm doing Railjack. And I do like the ground combat missions when I'm doing normal warframe. What I don't like is having to do both when I only want to do one.

Well, that's unfortunate, then, because that's precisely the openly-stated goal of Railjack 3.0 - integrate Railjack and Ground missions into the same, single mode. Warframe has historically had this precise problem over and over again - new systems are added, but exist only in their isolated bubble, never interfacing with the rest of the game. You got an Araching, and the only thing you could do with it was Archwing-and-nothing-else missions. Operators may have been a little less bad in that Eidolon hunts require at least a LITTLE interaction with the Warframe, but there's not a lot of other Operator content. Necramechs only existed in Free Roam maps and Orphyx Venom until very recently, and they're still highly limited.

The idea that "If I want to play X, I go play X and nothing else." is a non-starter. Warframe is at least supposed to be a cohesive game, rather than a collection of independent minigames. While not everyone has to like or play all the modes, the idea is for those "modes" to not be islands unto themselves. Moreover, the idea of Railjack - as far back as the TennoCon 2019 trailer - was to integrate it as a bridge between existing systems, not a separate "dogfighting module" of its own. I understand that's what you want, but that's not what it is, that's not what it was ever intended to be. It was this for a while, but that's a function of poor development practices at DE.

 

13 hours ago, gbjbaanb said:

Most people didn't play RJ because they tried it and had no way to know what to do. So they gave up and went back to normal missions. The remaining few who were lucky enough to be told, played it a lot because it was great fun. and we played the skirmish missions like Gian Point because that was entirely railjack missions without the ground combat elements. DE has faile dto appreciate both these things - we now get ground combat as the primary purpose of the node, and still have no tutorial of what to do in the railjack!

What do you mean "we" kemosabe? I'm a Railjack early adopter, I did my own research for the system, did my own grinding and played enough railjack to get to something like 8/8/9/10 Intrinsics before the research. I never found it to be "great fun." I found it have "great potential," but with an implementation which was slow, cumbersome and tedious and - crucially - lacked most of that potential. It really irritates me when people try to imply this kind of "us vs. them" tribalism, like the only reason I say these things about Railjack is I just don't get it, man, like I never played the sodding thing.

Moreover, to assert that people played Gian Point because it was pure Railjack combat AND NO OTHER REASON strikes me as somewhere between openly disingenuous and naive. Do you think people played Khora with the infinite-combo Xoris because it was so much fun and no other reason? Do you think people played the Catchmoon before its range nerf because it was so much fun and no other reason? Or is it that players will optimise all the fun out of a game if you let them? Is it because players will find a mission with a quick turn-around for massive XP and resource gains?

Again, I get that that's what YOU want, but I don't believe what YOU want is representative of either the playerbase as a whole or indeed the long-term health of Warframe. Keeping systems entirely separate like Railjack used to quite literally turned it into another Archwing - a thing next to nobody uses because it's sitting in a corner over there for its hardcore playerbase and literally no-one else. Railjack is too expensive to leave like that.

 

13 hours ago, (PSN)Stealth_Cobra said:

I've had alot of fun ignoring the starchart section and just running around the capital starship fighting the enemies that spawn... Sadly they only come in packs of four and there's not really any challenge there, but it makes you wonder how much better the whole thing would be instead of forcing you into a starchart mission , the conclusion was a proper Railjack + Ground combo scenario.

Well, you answered your own dilemma there. Have you noticed that the only decent ground combat happens in the dedicated ground mission section where your Railjack is unavailable? Yeah, there's a reason for that. Disabling the space layer temporarily is the only way to have decent ground combat in Railjack without toasting the host's PC. My own PC is no slouch - I'm sitting on an i7 10700 CPU and I still get substantial frame drops when both space combat and ground combat take place. Corpus Proxima regions in general seem to have lighter Railjack combat but heavier ground combat, and it shows. The game performs poorly with both. That's why you can have only one or the other, but not both at the same time.

Like with Scarlet Spear, the realities of implementing a system into the game in such a way that it'll run on end-user machines enforces limitations that the fake TennoCon 2019 "concept" trailer didn't have to concern itself with. I too would like to have large-scale ground combat within the same instance as a large-scale space combat, but Warframe isn't capable of doing that on most hardware.

 

12 hours ago, Reifnir said:

What we asked for *initially* was a seamless integration with open-world missions, shield emitters and whatnot. DE never delivered, then scarlet spear turned out to be a relay-hopping mess and the whole thing was shelved.

What do you mean "we" kemosabe? I never recall asking for integration of Railjack into Free Roam maps. In fact, I distinctly remember criticising DE's suggestions of doing so, because Free Roam maps are far too small for the Railjack scale. Railjack aerial combat often takes place at ranges of 4 Km+, and even our largest Free Roam map is 2x2 Km. You'd have to drastically slow down the ship, drastically limit AoE and gun ranges and turn it into a slug. Pretty much what happened to Archwings, in other words, and Archwing combat already sucks ass in Free Roam maps. DE seem to realise this, which is why every other enemy has ability-ignoring, Archwing-disabling tracking missiles.

What I've been asking for is almost exactly what we got - the ability to do proper ground missions within the overall Railjack instance. Since I seem to be the only player in Warframe who actually likes Warframe (sarcasm intended), I find this to be a good change. That's precisely what Railjack's potential was - a way to integrate the large ship space combat scenario with content we already had. Granted, DE chose to implement some of the game's dumbest mission types (Defence being by far the worst thing in the game which needs to be straight-up removed rather than propagated), but baby steps is what they seem to be going for.

Personally, I will be happiest when "isolated" missions go away entirely - and that includes pure ground missions. Warframe's combat gets really old really fast in reductive scenarios, but works best in a combined arms approach. Not for everyone, clearly, but I assert that it does overall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-03-20 at 2:10 PM, Steel_Rook said:

You can't have both. For purely gameplay reasons, we need less mandatory Railjack dogfighting so that teams can safely engage in the ground content without having to worry about their Railjacks blowing up while they're away. For performance reasons, you can't have both compelling ground combat and compelling space combat at the same time. You can have one or the other, but not both. And finally, this game is ostensibly about the Warframes, with all other tools being supplementary.

Integrating Railjack into regular content requires a reduction of Railjack-only content. That doesn't mean that all Railjack missions have to change - indeed, very few of them did. But it does mean the addition of a number of predominantly ground missions with a Railjack component.

You can have both!

During ground missions when everyone is forced to join the ground mission the ship is immortal. Did you not notice the greyed out immunity bar? The ship is only vulnerable during the ground stuff that doesn't require everyone, and thanks to crew it's a non issue now.

The second part is not entirely accurate either. Granted actual servers would be an easier way to address that issue, but in the case of peer to peer, you could have the ground crew become an independently hosted session, and just share the vital info with the client that is the host of the railjack mission. This would remove the need currently of forcing everyone into a ground mission. It's also a great excuse to drink more whiskey while writing the needed code to resolve the problem.

The third part is also not accurate, as it's only the case if you are lazy, or unimaginative when it comes to ways of resolving what is really not a problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

You can have both! During ground missions when everyone is forced to join the ground mission the ship is immortal. Did you not notice the greyed out immunity bar? The ship is only vulnerable during the ground stuff that doesn't require everyone, and thanks to crew it's a non issue now.

You just repeated what I said. The primary objective - the one which requires all players to be on the ship - is the only ground instance where actually meaningful ground combat occurs in Railjack. That is to say, it's the only instance with alarm capability, the only instance with a large number of ground enemies. That's exactly BECAUSE of what you yourself are noticing. Your Railjack becomes invulnerable because nothing outside the primary objective instance runs any more. The space layer is suspended, waiting for you to exit. The two can't exist simultaneously.

 

4 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

The second part is not entirely accurate either. Granted actual servers would be an easier way to address that issue, but in the case of peer to peer, you could have the ground crew become an independently hosted session, and just share the vital info with the client that is the host of the railjack mission. This would remove the need currently of forcing everyone into a ground mission. It's also a great excuse to drink more whiskey while writing the needed code to resolve the problem.

And you don't think this occurred to the Digital Extremes development team? What you're proposing here is ostensibly what happens when you lose connection to the host - a host migration where only part of the team remains together. We know the game can do that... With an extreme risk of breaking mission scripts. However, we've no reason to believe that the same can happen in reverse. In fact, Warframe matchmaking expressly does NOT match multiple existing teams together - only solo players can join a team. Every team of more than one player has its own "instance." A solo player who uses the Navigation console has an instance created for them, which is then destroyed if they leave the Navigation console without starting a mission. This is why your countdown cancels if you back out of the Navigation console while solo, but not when on a team. Boarding the Railjack similarly creates an instance - specifically an instance of your dojo. You can see all of these things when DE's servers lag for whatever reason, as they'll give you a "Please wait, creating/destroying instance..." pop-ups.

For as much as people like to trash-talk DE's developers for being incompetent, they're not actually dumb. Scarlet Spear was the same way - an idea that sounds simple if you say it fast enough, but which becomes substantially more complex once you try to implement it. I don't really see Warframe as being capable of separating a party into two instances hosted by different players while still keeping them in contact with an ability to re-merge them after the fact. Points of Interest are really nothing more than just locations set like 50 KM away from the space map behind the skybox. I wouldn't be opposed to such tech if it existed, but I suspect that's a bridge too far for this game's network protocols, on account of we've seen nothing even remotely approaching it.

 

11 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

The third part is also not accurate, as it's only the case if you are lazy, or unimaginative when it comes to ways of resolving what is really not a problem.

Yeah, that's easy to say in the abstract, but it's a conundrum in practice. It's like asking for all your groceries to be placed in one bag, but also asking for that bag to not be heavy. You can't have both. You can't have a meaningful ground combat component to Railjack without it taking time and focus away from the space component, because we can't go beyond 100% uptime/engagement/etc. You can add more ground combat to standard Skirmish objectives, but all that does is make the mission take an hour and spawn complaints. Crucially, you've still reduced the focus on space combat relative to the full mission because a much larger aspect of it is now taken up by non-space stuff.

And it really was a problem. Railjack adoption was exceedingly poor. While my experience is anecdotal, nearly all the people I actually spoke with on the subject cited one central criticism - "This isn't a space ship game. I came here to play Warframe." I've spent more time defending the merits of Railjack as a game mode in the first place to my friends than actually posted on the forums here. Only now, with the Railjack changes, was I able to talk a friend of mine into playing any of it. Creating a game mode as expensive as Railjack for a niche audience of players is a problem, any way you slice it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

You just repeated what I said. The primary objective - the one which requires all players to be on the ship - is the only ground instance where actually meaningful ground combat occurs in Railjack. That is to say, it's the only instance with alarm capability, the only instance with a large number of ground enemies. That's exactly BECAUSE of what you yourself are noticing. Your Railjack becomes invulnerable because nothing outside the primary objective instance runs any more. The space layer is suspended, waiting for you to exit. The two can't exist simultaneously.

 

And you don't think this occurred to the Digital Extremes development team? What you're proposing here is ostensibly what happens when you lose connection to the host - a host migration where only part of the team remains together. We know the game can do that... With an extreme risk of breaking mission scripts. However, we've no reason to believe that the same can happen in reverse. In fact, Warframe matchmaking expressly does NOT match multiple existing teams together - only solo players can join a team. Every team of more than one player has its own "instance." A solo player who uses the Navigation console has an instance created for them, which is then destroyed if they leave the Navigation console without starting a mission. This is why your countdown cancels if you back out of the Navigation console while solo, but not when on a team. Boarding the Railjack similarly creates an instance - specifically an instance of your dojo. You can see all of these things when DE's servers lag for whatever reason, as they'll give you a "Please wait, creating/destroying instance..." pop-ups.

For as much as people like to trash-talk DE's developers for being incompetent, they're not actually dumb. Scarlet Spear was the same way - an idea that sounds simple if you say it fast enough, but which becomes substantially more complex once you try to implement it. I don't really see Warframe as being capable of separating a party into two instances hosted by different players while still keeping them in contact with an ability to re-merge them after the fact. Points of Interest are really nothing more than just locations set like 50 KM away from the space map behind the skybox. I wouldn't be opposed to such tech if it existed, but I suspect that's a bridge too far for this game's network protocols, on account of we've seen nothing even remotely approaching it.

 

Yeah, that's easy to say in the abstract, but it's a conundrum in practice. It's like asking for all your groceries to be placed in one bag, but also asking for that bag to not be heavy. You can't have both. You can't have a meaningful ground combat component to Railjack without it taking time and focus away from the space component, because we can't go beyond 100% uptime/engagement/etc. You can add more ground combat to standard Skirmish objectives, but all that does is make the mission take an hour and spawn complaints. Crucially, you've still reduced the focus on space combat relative to the full mission because a much larger aspect of it is now taken up by non-space stuff.

And it really was a problem. Railjack adoption was exceedingly poor. While my experience is anecdotal, nearly all the people I actually spoke with on the subject cited one central criticism - "This isn't a space ship game. I came here to play Warframe." I've spent more time defending the merits of Railjack as a game mode in the first place to my friends than actually posted on the forums here. Only now, with the Railjack changes, was I able to talk a friend of mine into playing any of it. Creating a game mode as expensive as Railjack for a niche audience of players is a problem, any way you slice it.

Im just gonna quote this post but ive read few of them, you are for ground fight and looting, you basicly want open world space. what we are complaining is that they released corpus nodes but they didnt just release them, they made them so you have to do more ground than space fight, yes you do fight 3 to 4 crew ships and some other fighters but thats only if youre extending time of mission and stalling as much as you can, railjack is railjack its supposed to be used to fight and travel. same as archwing. maybe they will make more use for railjack later maybe not but fact is it still has to be space fight with less ground fight, there are planets for that and if you cant understand that then not a single person on this forum can explain that to you. and i see you like spending time in missions looting and thats fine but some of us prefer to fight well not some, most.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, TheSarkY said:

Im just gonna quote this post but ive read few of them, you are for ground fight and looting, you basicly want open world space. what we are complaining is that they released corpus nodes but they didnt just release them, they made them so you have to do more ground than space fight, yes you do fight 3 to 4 crew ships and some other fighters but thats only if youre extending time of mission and stalling as much as you can, railjack is railjack its supposed to be used to fight and travel. same as archwing. maybe they will make more use for railjack later maybe not but fact is it still has to be space fight with less ground fight, there are planets for that and if you cant understand that then not a single person on this forum can explain that to you. and i see you like spending time in missions looting and thats fine but some of us prefer to fight well not some, most.

Yeah, you guys keep repeating that, but not a single person so far has addressed this point. There's plenty of Railjack space fighting in the new missions, and you don't have to sit on your hands waiting for it to happen. With two to three Points of Interest in every mission and constantly-respawning enemies, you have to actively try to avoid the Railjack aspect as much as possible for this argument to make sense. Because you argue that "some of us prefer to fight," yet the only way any of this makes sense is if you deliberately DON'T fight and speed through the Railjack section as quickly as possible. It's a bit like grinding Capture missions in 60 seconds then complaining there's not enough fighting on ground missions. No, there isn't - when you speed past all of it.

The only difference between Corpus Proxima and Veil Proxima is the latter FORCED you to fight 6 Crew Ships and 80 Fighters before you could finish the mission. I routinely leave Corpus Proxima missions with similar kill counts (less so on the Crew Ships as they seem to spawn more rarely), attained over time as I clear the area around Points of Interest. I can only imagine what kind of kill counts my Pilot and Gunner end up with, since there's always a debirs field of pick-ups every time I go back out - on occasions where the pilot doesn't decide to drive into a wall the entire time. If anything, Corpus Proxima missions are faster and with more space ship combat than my average run of a Veil Proxima anomaly. The Murex itself is so gigantic and so empty that it routinely takes me 15-20 minutes just to clear it out, one level 50 Sentient per room.

You can have as much Railjack combat if you wanted to. Without wishing to be presumptuous, this comes across as wishing to both speed through missions and somehow have a deep and engaging experience. You can't really have both. Any attempt to make missions more involved will always come at the expense of slowing missions down and making them longer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

The two can't exist simultaneously.

I already explained that is false. The rest of your response is bloated. Who is trash talking DE? Certainly not myself. I never said the network coding would be simple  just that it can be done. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

I already explained that is false. The rest of your response is bloated. Who is trash talking DE? Certainly not myself. I never said the network coding would be simple  just that it can be done. 

And I already demonstrated that your explanation is wrong. Since you seem uninterested in reading the content of my posts but instead choose to respond with dismissal and ad hominem, I don't see a reason to engage with you further. In retrospect, I really should have realised that that's the response I was going to get, considering you slagged me as lazy and unimaginative in the post I originally responded to. That's what I get for giving people the benefit of a doubt, it seems.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Quote

Yeah, you guys keep repeating that, but not a single person so far has addressed this point. There's plenty of Railjack space fighting in the new missions, and you don't have to sit on your hands waiting for it to happen. With two to three Points of Interest in every mission and constantly-respawning enemies, you have to actively try to avoid the Railjack aspect as much as possible for this argument to make sense. Because you argue that "some of us prefer to fight," yet the only way any of this makes sense is if you deliberately DON'T fight and speed through the Railjack section as quickly as possible. It's a bit like grinding Capture missions in 60 seconds then complaining there's not enough fighting on ground missions. No, there isn't - when you speed past all of it.

If that is plenty of space fight for you then you didnt play railjack properly. constantly 4 respawning enemys is not a fight, they die when they spawn its just 4 of them. 
you. point of missions is complete them or did you forget that? ofcourse you gonna rush it because its not enjoying mission, and i did it only to unlock nodes and get some weapons, but i prefer grineer skirmish way more even with objectives. when did you ever hear someone say there is no enough fight in capture? you are just arguing now with some stupid excuses.

Quote

The only difference between Corpus Proxima and Veil Proxima is the latter FORCED you to fight 6 Crew Ships and 80 Fighters before you could finish the mission. I routinely leave Corpus Proxima missions with similar kill counts (less so on the Crew Ships as they seem to spawn more rarely), attained over time as I clear the area around Points of Interest. I can only imagine what kind of kill counts my Pilot and Gunner end up with, since there's always a debirs field of pick-ups every time I go back out - on occasions where the pilot doesn't decide to drive into a wall the entire time. If anything, Corpus Proxima missions are faster and with more space ship combat than my average run of a Veil Proxima anomaly. The Murex itself is so gigantic and so empty that it routinely takes me 15-20 minutes just to clear it out, one level 50 Sentient per room.

Again you like to spend your time, i dont, i want to complete missions. if they force me to do ground in that mission then thats not proper space fight mission, you can kill in space but fact that you spent more time in ground mission than space is still there.

oh and corpus is in veil so.

Quote

You can have as much Railjack combat if you wanted to. Without wishing to be presumptuous, this comes across as wishing to both speed through missions and somehow have a deep and engaging experience. You can't really have both. Any attempt to make missions more involved will always come at the expense of slowing missions down and making them longer.

and this is another your argument that you can waste more time to find more stuff to kill. instead actually doing objective to get reward and have fun killing in space. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Yeah, you guys keep repeating that, but not a single person so far has addressed this point. There's plenty of Railjack space fighting in the new missions, and you don't have to sit on your hands waiting for it to happen.

Au contraire!

It's very evident that plenty have addressed that there is no meaningful Railjack combat in Railjack now. It's all chicken bones devoid of meat. If we can guard boxes in space with an Archwing for Archwing mobile defense. You would think the least we could get is a similar mode using the Railjack. Best part of the first version of Railjack was the epic space combats. Now everything just evaporates instantly if you glance at them. No need to mange anything in the Railjack, all the engaging gameplay has been removed, and replaced with fluff. 

You keep typing up long winded responses that actually address nothing. In fact it appears as if the only thing the responses accomplish, is make excuses for why we can't have engaging gameplay. Most are extremely flimsy excuses, I might add.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

Your Railjack becomes invulnerable because nothing outside the primary objective instance runs any more. The space layer is suspended, waiting for you to exit. The two can't exist simultaneously.

This is not true, if you open your Tactical View and click over spectator mode on a Crew member, you will see that your Crew in the other Layer, is very much active and moving around

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

And I already demonstrated that your explanation is wrong. Since you seem uninterested in reading the content of my posts but instead choose to respond with dismissal and ad hominem, I don't see a reason to engage with you further. In retrospect, I really should have realised that that's the response I was going to get, considering you slagged me as lazy and unimaginative in the post I originally responded to. That's what I get for giving people the benefit of a doubt, it seems.

No you did not!

My comment was not specifically pointed in your direction. However if the shoe fits, you are welcome to wear it if you desire.

ps.  I have not actually used an ad hominem. I can if you would like... If you had a clue you wouldn't have misspelled "realized". There you go.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...