If Saryn is going to stay like this, let us Blacklist Frames for matchmaking

[Pizzarugi]

5 minutes ago, uAir said:

Then add a bunch of "no Saryn" players to your friends list and/or clan and request an "invite all friends/clan" function instead of this black list thing that isn't very well thought out. -_-

That's a LOT of work just to avoid one frame when you could just give a blacklist so players who don't like them don't have to deal with them trivializing the game for the whole team.

[uAir]

2 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

That's a LOT of work just to avoid one frame when you could just give a blacklist so players who don't like them don't have to deal with them trivializing the game for the whole team.

Nah, if you think so you probably know nothing about computer programming and do not have a background in mathematics.

It's much easier to just implement an invite all button and hope your netcode is robust enough to deal with the mini DDOS.

[Circle_of_Psi]

18 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

I suggested this in an old matchmaking blacklist thread I made a long time ago:

If the host has a frame blacklisted, a client who is trying to join that is using said blacklisted frame will pass up that host and find another (or host a game on their own if none can be found). If a client has a frame blacklisted and tries to join a host who is using a blacklisted frame, the client will pass up that host to find another.

Now if a client joins a host and didn't get blacklisted, the client's own blacklist can also be factored in for future participants in the mission, or it could rely solely on the host's for convenience.

This only applies to public sessions. Blacklists will be ignored in cases such as players being invited to a group.

Ture but what if the frame is an very common one?, you'll be in a endless loop of trying to get the "perfect" team 

[WOLFtv]

For me isnt about nerfing, if its game breaking YES ,if not why so?
Saryn is game breaking? no ofc no, its an aoe with high dmg
i'd prefer DE boosting frames so they can be playable solo or better with others/ like duos or so.
You need to remember that this game is pretty much kill to loot, yes items for the occasion yet is about killing with efficiency. i've always said "Bring one item that can kill"

There's a meta and its alright that it exits .issue is when so many arent good enough and 1% does the trick ,they will keep creating new items that most suck,
is the mecanic of the game and where it wnet ,without the melee NEEDED change so many were unusable. items arent like separeted with rarities, its a whole for them as we can see with melee,some just had better stats or ways to be used yet they share a common ground
When any item cant kill multiple enemies with easy around lvl 30 is bad, the average is around 50 like sortie. you can say ;Riven-and 6 formas that is the peak normally should be able to kill without that peak lvl 30.

example of game breaking = trinity bless range, it was great yet with all the new maps made that are way too big for the simpliest thing as RJ extra loot, its game breaking 
and with Steel path isnt since they can 1 hit kill.
Some others that did millions or dmg with high ranges,that break boosts and give thousands of stats
 

[Pizzarugi]

2 hours ago, WOLFtv said:

i'd prefer DE boosting frames so they can be playable solo or better with others/ like duos or so.

How do you buff Limbo to becoming as broken as Saryn? How do you make Nidus able to spam one button to delete a room and all the ones adjacent? You can't, not without reworking every frame into becoming a nuke frame.

Also, the "always buff, never nerf" mentality will have long-term consequences down the road. We wouldn't have enemies that nullify your powers, have diminishing returns, or sap your energy if DE didn't allow player access to power to spiral out of control. If it wasn't so easy to spam spores and miasma to wipe out everything, we wouldn't have Nullifiers, Nox, Comba/Scrambus, Energy Leech eximus, or the new Sentients that become resistant to your powers.

One frame is the problem (well, several since there are multiple nuke frames), the easiest solution is to just nerf them to stop turning a horde-shooter into a walking simulator for the rest of the team, not rework the entire roster of frames and weapons to be on the same absurdly overpowered pedestal. Either that, or allow players to blacklist them from matchmaking so they can enjoy their horde-shooter in public settings.

[Angwah]

There many nuke frames (and weapons) that outperform Saryn. In fact, ESO is the only place she comes out on top, and even there, if you have a Mirage or Volt in the group you'll have to go deep before you do.

If the problem is that nuking strategies and wiping tiles at the press of a button is the problem, Saryn really is not the worst offender.

[TheMostFrench]

There are a bunch of issues IMO, please read them all before thinking about a reply.

1) What happens on the navigation screen where it says 'x number of open squads' on a mission node? How will this number ever be accurate when everyone has different blacklists?

2) Consider if one host has no blacklist but there is a host migration, and the new host DOES have a blacklist - Will other people be kicked off the group if they are on the new host blacklist? If yes, what if they were in the middle of a survival or defense wave? Do they keep or lose all of their items? If no, do they have to leave at the end of the next wave or just keep going until whenever they decide to finish?

3) What if a player is on the blacklist, but their frame is brand new? e.g level 0, no forma and no mods, not mastered. Why should a person who is trying out a new frame for the first time be excluded from gameplay, just because it has a bad reputation with some players once it reaches maximum potential? The person who just made this frame might not even have the mods to make a mission destroying build anyway - they will never actually create an issue for the person who blacklisted them. The problem is not the Frame, the problem is the mod loadout.

4) What if a person who blacklists a certain Warframe wants to BE that Warframe all the time? Maybe they just abuse the system so that no one else can ever use Saryn in their groups? You might say 'Just make it so they can't play as that Frame' but is that enough?

5) People want to stop other others from playing the Frames they enjoy just because they work well. If enough people blacklist something, this has the potential to stop anyone from using certain content completely. This is an issue for the developers, not for other players. When someone brings a Frame like Saryn into a mission, they don't stop you from getting rewards each wave, and they don't stop you from getting affinity. In my experience, a teammate like that actually helps me get MORE stuff than I would ever get on my own because I'm not usually running those builds.

6) A player is looking for a game, but every group they try to join has different Frames blacklisted. None of the lists are identical in any way. Forming a group is now way more difficult because there is no indication that someone might be able to join your group if you change to a certain frame. Let's say DE adds an indicator like "If you change to Ember you can join this group" so you change to Ember, but that group has already started and is now full.

Now the next group waiting doesn't want Ember because the host has blacklisted it. The player trying to find a group has to go back to the arsenal menu constantly, change to a new build, then get back to navigation and join the group in time before someone else fills the spot just to please the new host - Someone could make a blacklist that bans every frame EXCEPT Saryn.

7) People who only have a small number of Frames suffer more than people with a big collection, they would have more options for getting around a blacklist. Also, consider if people got into the game through buying a prime access pack but everyone had blacklisted that frame.

-----

Put simply, there is already an invite only mode, and there are already clans and alliances.

If you have enough free time to read these threads and write replies, as well as put hundreds or thousands of hours into the game, then you have the time to arrange a group and tell people "Don't bring this" if you want to avoid certain builds. You can make a thread on these forums, on reddit, steam community, discord, whatever - there are a bunch of places where you can find like minded players who want to avoid certain styles of play, and then you can very easily get the kind of game you want instead of excluding strangers for choosing to use the options given to them by the game.

The reality is that DE would have to create a new blacklist option which doesn't exist yet and consider all of the issues (plus more) that I mentioned, then there is no guarantee it would work properly to begin with, or you can keep asking them to fix the issues that exist with current Frames. It would make more sense to get in contact with other players who agree with you, and want to see changes to Warframes like Saryn that can destroy entire missions, then to wait for DE to add a brand new untested feature that makes it harder for everyone else to find games. If you get a huge list of signatures, or can collate links to multiple discussions and threads where people have talked about how much they don't like a Frame like Saryn, then it makes the situation very clear and very real - people want to see those Frames changed ASAP.

[DoomFruit]

3 hours ago, TheMostFrench said:

What happens on the navigation screen where it says 'x number of open squads' on a mission node? How will this number ever be accurate when everyone has different blacklists?

It's not accurate now. I don't see this making it any worse.

[Birdframe_Prime]

It's interesting that having one frame blocked is such a problem, when what you actually want to block is the specific play style.

If a Saryn were using the Contagion Clouds melee build you wouldn't have the problem, for example.

The same is true for those that don't have a full build on, because they're newer players or lower MR and are either levelling or still looking for the more powerful mods.

So you're wanting to block a frame in its entirety... over a single build for that frame, even if that build is strong.

Yeesh... what a whiner.

[Pizzarugi]

8 hours ago, TheMostFrench said:

What happens on the navigation screen where it says 'x number of open squads' on a mission node? How will this number ever be accurate when everyone has different blacklists?

It'll shrink, obviously, but that's what happens with blacklists. If you start winding up with fewer to no players teaming up with you, perhaps you should review your blacklist and drop a few frames from it.

8 hours ago, TheMostFrench said:

2) Consider if one host has no blacklist but there is a host migration, and the new host DOES have a blacklist - Will other people be kicked off the group if they are on the new host blacklist? If yes, what if they were in the middle of a survival or defense wave? Do they keep or lose all of their items? If no, do they have to leave at the end of the next wave or just keep going until whenever they decide to finish?

The blacklist would and should remain whatever the original host set it to. if it doesn't, if you managed to stay in the team earlier, a new blacklist shouldn't kick you out as its designed for players who are just entering missions from their orbiter rather than those already locked in on a mission.

8 hours ago, TheMostFrench said:

3) What if a player is on the blacklist, but their frame is brand new? e.g level 0, no forma and no mods, not mastered. Why should a person who is trying out a new frame for the first time be excluded from gameplay, just because it has a bad reputation with some players once it reaches maximum potential? The person who just made this frame might not even have the mods to make a mission destroying build anyway - they will never actually create an issue for the person who blacklisted them. The problem is not the Frame, the problem is the mod loadout.

You may be over-exaggerating how many frames are going to be blacklisted that something like this is going to be a problem. There aren't that many people who genuinely have a problem with Saryn compared to those that do, and DE's reveals of usage charts in the past have shown as much. The only time certain new frames might get blacklisted is when their mechanics are designed in such a way as to directly interfere with other peoples' gameplay, such as pre-rework Limbo.

In the case of pre-rework Limbo, if people blacklist a frame that later gets a rework, those frames should be removed from all blacklists so players can try and experience missions with them again before deciding if they should be blacklisted again.

Also, Hydron is a very popular mission for mastering anything. I have strong doubts levelers are going to have much issue finding people to team up with.

8 hours ago, TheMostFrench said:

4) What if a person who blacklists a certain Warframe wants to BE that Warframe all the time? Maybe they just abuse the system so that no one else can ever use Saryn in their groups? You might say 'Just make it so they can't play as that Frame' but is that enough?

I don't see anything wrong with this. If someone wants to hog those frames for themselves and nobody else has them blacklisted (thus preventing them from matching with said person), everything continues as normal. Given how long I've played, I've seen very few teams that had more than one Saryn or Mesa anyway, so little would be lost from doing this.

8 hours ago, TheMostFrench said:

5) People want to stop other others from playing the Frames they enjoy just because they work well. If enough people blacklist something, this has the potential to stop anyone from using certain content completely. This is an issue for the developers, not for other players. When someone brings a Frame like Saryn into a mission, they don't stop you from getting rewards each wave, and they don't stop you from getting affinity. In my experience, a teammate like that actually helps me get MORE stuff than I would ever get on my own because I'm not usually running those builds.

You're missing the point of why people want blacklisting. It's not to avoid frames that are stopping you from getting rewards or preventing you from playing the game (granted it would help deal with griefers). You're only concerned about rewards and the grind and that's fine. People like me and the OP are concerned about the gameplay, a horde-shooter, being taken away by nuke frames which can delete hordes in an instant. You may want a Saryn in the team because it speeds up the grinding, but I want to be able to do something besides having one person play the entire game for me while I walk from start to extraction hoovering up resources.

I don't play this game to have it play itself for me. I have my own weapons and abilities I wish to use, but I can't because one person in our team of four is spamming one button to make the core gameplay stop existing.

8 hours ago, TheMostFrench said:

6) A player is looking for a game, but every group they try to join has different Frames blacklisted. None of the lists are identical in any way. Forming a group is now way more difficult because there is no indication that someone might be able to join your group if you change to a certain frame. Let's say DE adds an indicator like "If you change to Ember you can join this group" so you change to Ember, but that group has already started and is now full.

You're mistaking a blacklist for a whitelist. We're not looking for a feature that only allows frames to play, but one that excludes them. :P

To prevent over-complicating issues, I expect the blacklist would only apply to the host.

8 hours ago, TheMostFrench said:

Now the next group waiting doesn't want Ember because the host has blacklisted it. The player trying to find a group has to go back to the arsenal menu constantly, change to a new build, then get back to navigation and join the group in time before someone else fills the spot just to please the new host - Someone could make a blacklist that bans every frame EXCEPT Saryn.

If someone bans every frame except Saryn, they force themself into a corner where they'll have few to no people to team up with. They brought that problem onto themselves which they can very easily fix by removing a few frames from the blacklist. If people wanted to play solo, they'd switch to that mode, otherwise they'll need to make compromises to their absurdly-limited blacklist.

8 hours ago, TheMostFrench said:

7) People who only have a small number of Frames suffer more than people with a big collection, they would have more options for getting around a blacklist. Also, consider if people got into the game through buying a prime access pack but everyone had blacklisted that frame.

Refer back to my refutation in point 3. The only time a frame is going to be largely blacklisted is if that frame is abused by griefers. I expect the blacklist will mostly be used by a minority of people who will most likely have nuke frames excluded from their games, whereas most players like yourself would rather have them in your team for convenience.

8 hours ago, TheMostFrench said:

If you have enough free time to read these threads and write replies, as well as put hundreds or thousands of hours into the game, then you have the time to arrange a group and tell people "Don't bring this" if you want to avoid certain builds.

That is extremely unrealistic.

In all the time I've played this game, I've never once seen players advertise in the LFG chat about playing some random mission and demand that certain frames not be played. The time and effort to achieve a team this way would take far longer than if you just jumped into the mission and completed it.

[LillyRaccune]

10 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It's interesting that having one frame blocked is such a problem, when what you actually want to block is the specific play style.

If a Saryn were using the Contagion Clouds melee build you wouldn't have the problem, for example.

The same is true for those that don't have a full build on, because they're newer players or lower MR and are either levelling or still looking for the more powerful mods.

So you're wanting to block a frame in its entirety... over a single build for that frame, even if that build is strong.

This is an interesting point. And I think this may yield better results than saying "frame X is blacklist". If we could set matchmaking to isolate if the players ability stats were above 200%, that might, might weed out the type of play style that OP is trying to poo-poo on avoid. Of course it wouldn't work for Arbitrations and if such an option really did exist I would actually use it to join players that min/max their builds.

In my experience over the years, I only have had one really unpleasant experience with a max range/duration Limbo on a mobile defense. The player kept casting Cataclysm on the computer and we were unable to plug in the key to start the defense because they kept reactivating their 4. It was agony. Compared to that one experience, most other problems are just a small annoyance.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

I find this humorous honestly, I would of used this system when I still played to avoid Mags and Excals though because getting paired with packpacks when I was looking for serious endurance runs or fast missions It would of been a nice feature! That said that would of been abuse of a mechanic to avoid a whole subset of players just as trying to avoid nukers would have been. So as much as I hate what WF has become me and my 3K veteran status before retiring says this is just a terrible idea! Honestly though I was at a level of play where I could keep up with nukers on just about any frame with any decent weapons so it never bothered me...

[TheMostFrench]

8 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

We're not looking for a feature that only allows frames to play, but one that excludes them.

Instead of outright banning someone who has a Saryn or other nukeframe equipped, giving them the opportunity to change to something else would be better, don't you think? You're arguing for 'exclusion without explanation' - that person might also enjoy the kind of gameplay you enjoy, but was using Saryn to do some affinity farming. Whoops, they forgot to change to literally any other frame before looking for a group. There is more than one valid form of gameplay in Warframe depending on what someone wants to achieve.

 

8 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

You may be over-exaggerating how many frames are going to be blacklisted that something like this is going to be a problem. There aren't that many people who genuinely have a problem with Saryn compared to those that do, and DE's reveals of usage charts in the past have shown as much. The only time certain new frames might get blacklisted is when their mechanics are designed in such a way as to directly interfere with other peoples' gameplay, such as pre-rework Limbo.

So you more or less agree that it's not that big a problem, and that it will go away on its own if DE sorts out any perceived issues, making a blacklist unnecessary. Again, I encourage you to actually TRY and find like minded people to play with instead of arguing that something has to be done FOR you. If the usage charts show that you are in the minority of players, then you are going to have to do the legwork to get what you want.

 

8 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

That is extremely unrealistic.

In all the time I've played this game, I've never once seen players advertise in the LFG chat about playing some random mission and demand that certain frames not be played. The time and effort to achieve a team this way would take far longer than if you just jumped into the mission and completed it.

The time and effort to achieve a team is far shorter than DE coding and implementing a blacklist system for a small number of people. In the amount of time it took to write your reply you could have made a brand new thread -

" TITLE: Post Here If You Don't Like Nuke Frames:
Anyone who doesn't like playing with Nuke Frames, and wants to have a real run-and-gun experience without entire missions being destroyed from several rooms away by Frames like Saryn, post here and we can add each other to our friends' lists to enjoy a better type of gameplay".

Just two lines, probably a decent number of replies from people that are really interested - you already have plenty of support in this thread! The first step is already half done. No need to make posts for in-game LFG because you can just go to your thread and find like minded people to play with. Create a discord server, and bam - you have your own community forever no matter what direction the game takes.

 

[(PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk]

General or Mission seems a more appropriate area for this given how blacklisting can apply to more than just Saryn. I was asking about this for Volt awhile back, but I'd settle for a Faraday cage to be undisturbed by his Speed boost. Smh at the Volters who feel like that gift is wanted by everyone.

[MomentoHeleo]

Don’t the new players already have enough to deal with than people banning one of the only frames they have using a blacklist. I’m sure that a 5min run with 1 frame you dislike won’t end ur wf career. If you’re going for a long grind run, then clan/alliance/recruiting chats can help find you a party. A whole black list system would just cause more issues, just finding a match would take some people more time than the mission itself would. If the solution is for them to pick another frame then you miss the purpose of what a game is, it’s to have fun, and by forcing people to play specific frames you do just that.

Say if I loved to play limbo but he was on every blacklist, even if I play at the lowest range and highest duration I can most of the time and let my teams know that if they don’t like my 4 then they can tell me and I won’t use it. But, guess it’d suck for me because I wouldn’t be able to even get to that point. But, I have many frames that I can switch over to and still enjoy. That is not the case for a newer player with only like 2 warframe slots where chances are they might have been helped by a veteran to get a frame further into the game that they like, for example, Saryn.

When adding something like a blacklist you have to consider the community as a whole. More people get negatively impacted by a blacklist than positively. I have never seen a recruit for someone asking for a run with or without a specific frame, that’s because people with an issue likely don’t care enough about it to make a post recruit others and saying “don’t use x”. If it were as deep as it’s being claimed to be, there would be posts like that, yet most people (and I say most because I can’t guarantee everyone) seem to be able to push past the frame people are using. 
 

Someone earlier mentioned a 3 blacklist per person, that’d result in teams locking more at 2/3 people because if in some cases you have unique blacklists, that’s 3,6,9 warframes that are just banned. Likely more common frames, because not many of the rarer frames actually show up in many missions. This would result in recruitment posts with people asking for specific frames and idk about you but that’s how you kill the freedom and joy of a game. 

Instead of pushing for a whole system to be implemented for the sake of convenience, why not use a system already in the game that will help just as well if not more. Give the chat function a try, if you can find people who hate a frame as much as you, you’ll likely be able to queue with them for a bunch of stuff, end up making a whole group out of it.

[TeaHawk]

Firstly, I love the concept of black-list. Limbo will become its first and last permanent member for me.

 

However, you should know one thing about Saryn: the main reason so many noobs/casual players are complaining about her is that she's freaking overhyped.

There are so many outperforming nuking options for each level segment, that Saryn with all my respects is not the heaven-sent uber-nuke as she's depicted.

I really hope one day peaople will start using their brain and create some interesting working builds, like nuking gara, or trip-wire mines mirrage, and so on. It is so sad, that the only nuke people are complaining about is still Saryn. That stultifying ignorance makes me sad.

[(PSN)twin-solo_2]

I would never blacklist frames for doing their job, but I would ask that Limbo players stop using Range mods/learn what the rift prevents your allies from doing, especially in Arbitration because you literally cannot shoot Drones unless you are outside of the rift.

[EinheriarJudith]

3 hours ago, (PSN)twin-solo_2 said:

I would never blacklist frames for doing their job, but I would ask that Limbo players stop using Range mods/learn what the rift prevents your allies from doing, especially in Arbitration because you literally cannot shoot Drones unless you are outside of the rift.

the 2 biggest strengths of limbos skills are Range/Duration. telling people to not use range mods is telling them not to do their job.

[Proscriptor]

On 2021-03-22 at 9:21 PM, (PSN)Deeceem said:

define 'wah'

[Pizzarugi]

2 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

the 2 biggest strengths of limbos skills are Range/Duration. telling people to not use range mods is telling them not to do their job.

It's like telling Saryn not to max out range. If nobody's going to not make their nuke frame actually nuke, then how does one expect people using a lockdown CC frame to not lock down areas?

[project_eulogy]

Play with a squad, if youre in PUB then you have 2 options: suck it up or leave squad/abort,

Meanwhile i see Mirage out DPSing Saryn all day. Delete Mirage as well. I also don't like Slowva in Defense missions. Cancel that too. Makes the mission go by so much slower.

[EinheriarJudith]

10 minutes ago, project_eulogy said:

Play with a squad, if youre in PUB then you have 2 options: suck it up or leave squad/abort,

Meanwhile i see Mirage out DPSing Saryn all day. Delete Mirage as well. I also don't like Slowva in Defense missions. Cancel that too. Makes the mission go by so much slower.

lol i love to see extreme posts like this ^. when they change Defense to have waves be on a timer instead of kills then no one will care about slowva on defense. i personally didnt add saryn to my list because all DE needs to do is fix her LoS or reduce her range or both, personally i would turn spore into a skill like molecular prime and remove the spread mechanic on it.

mirage also need LoS or range reduction. anything that reduces 3 other peoples gameplay to "standing simulator mode" needs to be looked at for review.

[Thorham]

15 hours ago, project_eulogy said:

Play with a squad, if youre in PUB then you have 2 options: suck it up or leave squad/abort,

While I don't like nuke frames such as Saryn, I completely agree with this.

[Sammonoske]

Nothing is stopping you from leaving the mission. These complaints are just another way of saying play the game my way or I am banning you from the basketball court that I don't even own.

[EinheriarJudith]

6 minutes ago, Sammonoske said:

Nothing is stopping you from leaving the mission. These complaints are just another way of saying play the game my way or I am banning you from the basketball court that I don't even own.

what are you talking about? missions require a host connection to run. there is no such thing as P2P with matches that have 4 clients. when the host has terrible connectivity everyone in the match will have it. host migration is to prevent trolling and to prevent loss in the event of a disconnection. the only time the host does not own the lobby is on a dedicated server where the server is the host and everyone connecting to it is the client.

blacklisting would ensure that people can CHOOSE the kind of groups they get matched up in without doing something ridiculous like using recruit chat just to do/repeat normal missions.

i see absolutely no problems with people wanting to have an enjoyable experience while playing with others. blacklisting removes that ridiculous "if you dont like it leave" and "keep leaving until those intrusive things are gone"

people can play how they like but id love to have the option to not have someone forcing me to constantly backflip/roll to remove effects (backflip/roll is not an optout as it doesnt prevent the effect) without secluding myself from others reducing action, pace, player interaction, and rewards.