Flan-Flan Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 I think the cost for Hema should either be reduced (15,000 shadow clan cost is absurd for anyone that doesn't have 'grandfathered' materials ready for it), or the drop rate for Mutagen Sample should be increased. Here is an example of a 30 minute survival on Deimos, using a resource booster for doubled drops, AND Kavat with Charm to double the drops again. I killed 1882 enemies and was rewarded with 72 mutagen samples. Since it's hard to say then since I got Charm's resource boost effect about 4-5 times and the resource booster itself, how many actual drops I received from individual enemies, all I can really extrapolate is that I earned 72 mutagen samples from 1882 kills, which means that I spent 30 minutes soloing this mission no less, which means to actually earn the 15,000 mutagen samples for Hema I would need to commit to 208 runs of Derelict Survival (Terrorem) half an hour each, or about 104 hours of real time spent grinding. Since this is a little absurd, let's just take 5000 off since all the clan members in my clan have contributed about that much already from materials they already had on hand, keeping in mind this is a shadow clan with 20 members total and only 2-3 active members at any given time. So that's 10,000 remaining. This would reduce the time required to about 68 hours of real time grinding, or 137 runs. Let's just say I manage to rope even one other person into this adventure, that halves the time required, provided we're both running kavats with Charm, and both running resource boosters for every single run of Derelict Survival. It is now an 'eminently reasonable' 68 runs. However, keep in mind this is half an hour every time, so that would take about 34 hours of real time or if we assume 5 hours per day spent on Warframe alone, perhaps maybe a week of doing nothing but running this exact same mission every day, while activating resource boosters and relying on kavat Charm. To summarize, I just think this is kind of absurd to expect from anyone and I think therefore the cost for Hema should be reduced OR the drop rates for mutagen samples (which are otherwise almost a useless resource) should be increased, especially since there are actually minimal sources for mutagen samples in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Deeceem Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 I think that's nothing new and was talked about since the day the Hema was introduced. DE just simply doesn't care about how out there the Hema is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bad4youLT Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 Maybe DE did something then they converted derelicts into deimos ? Anyways go to Derelict Defense as its the best spot for mutagen sample and bring nekros , speed nova , pilfering khora and trinity or oberon for healing , make sure everyone's running smeeta kavat and have resource booster and drop chance booster . You should be getting about 500-1000 samples for 40 waves . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flan-Flan Posted March 23, 2021 Author Share Posted March 23, 2021 9 minutes ago, bad4youLT said: Maybe DE did something then they converted derelicts into deimos ? Anyways go to Derelict Defense as its the best spot for mutagen sample and bring nekros , speed nova , pilfering khora and trinity or oberon for healing , make sure everyone's running smeeta kavat and have resource booster and drop chance booster . You should be getting about 500-1000 samples for 40 waves . The focus for me in this thread isn't to find ways around the problem as it stands - and it is a problem - and more to just offer up some data and numbers and hope that someone on the development team actually sees this and brings it to a meeting so DE can actually discuss the issue internally. You're probably right that if you ran a full team of four and put in the effort, paying out platinum for boosters and using optimal gear and the right frames with nekros and khora etc, all this stuff to very efficiently farm this one mission, you could probably get it done reasonably quick. Except for me I don't have four people, I've got me, one other, maybe even two if someone else decides to log on (it doesn't look like they're going to log on). And that's us with our endgame gear and stuff ready to go. Which brings me to the next point. This isn't just about me, this is an issue that affects pretty much everyone that might want to make a clan and at some point wants to research Hema, and I think that is the core problem that needs to be resolved, either by reducing the research cost, or increasing drop rates. At some point, someone is going to start a Ghost clan, maybe a Shadow clan, and if they have a small group of people or a larger group or whatever, they will have to pay the cost of 5,000-15,000 mutagen samples and I maintain it is simply too much for those people to handle. Some more numbers. The actual sum total of mutagen samples you need to complete every research other than Hema is only about 1190 depending on how many mutagen masses you feel like crafting. That's probably near two dozen other weapons or items. Hema costs so much that at Ghost level, it costs nearly five times as much to craft as a Shadow clan would spend researching every other item. Something needs to be done to fix this so smaller groups can research this item, the answer is not 'find a bigger clan' or 'find a bigger group' because that doesn't fix the core issue of the research being too difficult for a smaller group to complete, which is why I made this thread in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proscriptor Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 It's too late to change this. This must not be changed now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flan-Flan Posted March 23, 2021 Author Share Posted March 23, 2021 23 minutes ago, Proscriptor said: It's too late to change this. This must not be changed now. It's never too late to make the game better for future players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltage Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 Clan research should use Hema as a model. I'm sorry but clans should have research like this to require contribution from multiple people and be a goal for a clan. All other research being trivial shouldn't be an excuse to keep it trivial. I think Hema is fine and you just need to not be in a rush. If you need it that urgently, start grinding Derelict Defense as someone posted above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeddypanda Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 Were you running steel path? If you're solo and not steel path, the spawn rates are incredibly bad. Steel path also has a built-in double drop chance. Compounded with the full party enemy spawns, running steel path vs not is effectively an 8x resource booster. Not defending Hema's cost (it's indefensible), just giving pointers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proscriptor Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Flan-Flan said: It's never too late to make the game better for future players. If they want Hema, they need to walk the same path that those before them walked. That's what "Hema" means. Changing that is killing Hema. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flan-Flan Posted March 23, 2021 Author Share Posted March 23, 2021 58 minutes ago, Zeddypanda said: Were you running steel path? If you're solo and not steel path, the spawn rates are incredibly bad. Steel path also has a built-in double drop chance. Compounded with the full party enemy spawns, running steel path vs not is effectively an 8x resource booster. Not defending Hema's cost (it's indefensible), just giving pointers. I actually wasn't running Steel Path because I probably can't do it, and I certainly don't have the node unlocked. This is core to the critical point that I am making and that some people seem to have ignored, the point of this thread is to bring up the fact that the issue here is of accessibility, and it's one that is a complete outlier with the rest of the research and even the build costs of items across the dojo, and it is precisely why I made the thread in the first place. If anything, this just strengthens my argument because nobody should have to consider Steel Path just to farm an item that could or should be obtained through gameplay naturally, which it can't since it only drops on Eris and Deimos, and even then uncommonly. Nobody should have to consider Steel Path which is billed as a very optional extra difficulty for the hardcore only. This is a sign there is a problem with the drop rate or the recipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsukinoki Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 4 hours ago, Flan-Flan said: Except for me I don't have four people, I've got me, one other, maybe even two if someone else decides to log on (it doesn't look like they're going to log on). And that's us with our endgame gear and stuff ready to go. So basically you're trying to solo a group project and complaining about the costs? Especially since you got your clan up to a shadow clan when only 2 members in the clan are active. Here are a few tips that will actually solve your entire problem: A) Shrink the clan back to a ghost clan; remove people that haven't logged on in years; enjoy the much friendlier price points B) Get some active people into your clan; split up the research costs among them C) Stop complaining when you purposefully get in over your head....and then whinge that you're in over your head. I mean you sound like the people who go "Moon clan resource costs are insane! The 10 people that are active in our clan can't hope to pay for those costs!!!!" And even if you aren't the founder/leader of a clan you can request support grant you ownership if the current leader has been inactive for a while then you can follow the steps above. You got yourself into the mess of being in a shadow clan without the people to support it; you can get yourself out of that mess. 2 hours ago, Flan-Flan said: This is a sign there is a problem with the drop rate or the recipe. Or this is maybe, just maybe a sign that its a group project and goal not a single player goal. And if you want to make it a single player goal then you have to buckle up and do things more efficiently and try harder than a full group. After all if you actually had even half a clan working on this you would have it done really really quickly. If you want to do that solo/duo then you'll have to work harder and smarter as you're trying to do the job of what should be (for a ghost clan) 5 to (for a shadow clan which you're currently sitting at) 15 people. If one or two people are going to do the work of 5 to 15 people then yes, you'll need to do the "hardcore" efficeint farms if you want it done in a reasonable timeframe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel_Rook Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 I believe Cambion Drift activities have become a better source of Mutagen Samples since that release. Have you tried running content there? That's a big-huge progression system all its own, and should give you plenty of other reasons to go there along with farming for Samples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)iuvenilis Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 Mutagen samples drop like candy in the drift. Don't waste your time doing deimos/derelict missions. The debate regarding hema ended years ago. DE aren't changing it now, fortunately, the resources are MUCH easier to get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rantear Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 11 часов назад, Voltage сказал: Clan research should use Hema as a model. I'm sorry but clans should have research like this to require contribution from multiple people and be a goal for a clan. All other research being trivial shouldn't be an excuse to keep it trivial. I think Hema is fine and you just need to not be in a rush. If you need it that urgently, start grinding Derelict Defense as someone posted above. Have been playing the game for almost 2 years now, solo clan, still no Hema, am I rushing it too much? 🤪 Honestly, main problem with Hema is the fact that mutagen samples, unlike almost every other resource in the game, do not accumulate passively over time, at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltage Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, Rantear said: Have been playing the game for almost 2 years now, solo clan, still no Hema, am I rushing it too much? 🤪 Not to be condescending, but a solo clan is not a real clan. The point of research should be tuned to having a decently active clan with a decently filled roster making progress on research for clan XP and player items for Mastery, completion, and/or usage. Even solo though, it really isn't super hard to farm the Mutagen for the research if you actively farm the resources for Hema. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rantear Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 1 минуту назад, Voltage сказал: Not to be condescending, but a solo clan is not a real clan. The point of research should be tuned to having a decently active clan with a decently filled roster making progress on research for clan XP and player items for Mastery, completion, and/or usage. Even solo though, it really isn't super hard to farm the Mutagen for the research if you actively farm the resources for Hema. Did you miss my point, like completely? Цитата mutagen samples, unlike almost every other resource in the game, do not accumulate passively over time, at all. Group or solo, 2 years is a loooong time for something to accumulate, and i'm not even half way done with collecting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltage Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, Rantear said: Did you miss my point, like completely? Group or solo, 2 years is a loooong time for something to accumulate, and i'm not even half way done with collecting. You say they do not accumulate passively, but I have never farmed Mutagen Samples: Granted, I have many hours in the game, but I have never dedicated time to specifically farming for this resource. I don't see a problem with a resource requiring dedicated farming if you want a specific quantity in a timely manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rantear Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 7 минут назад, Voltage сказал: You say they do not accumulate passively, but I have never farmed Mutagen Samples: Granted, I have many hours in the game, but I have never dedicated time to specifically farming for this resource. I don't see a problem with a resource requiring dedicated farming if you want a specific quantity in a timely manner. Jesus Christ, you like a real life dreamer or smth. Were there other sources of samples thoughout the years? I don't see why someone would literally waste hundreds if not thousands of hours on the Derelict or Eris, as those numbers suggest you did (seriously, best i did was 6.8 samples per minute on steel path with Khora and a booster, that amount is worth 147 hours) And again 2 years is really stretching "timely manner" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flan-Flan Posted March 23, 2021 Author Share Posted March 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, Voltage said: You say they do not accumulate passively, but I have never farmed Mutagen Samples: Granted, I have many hours in the game, but I have never dedicated time to specifically farming for this resource. I don't see a problem with a resource requiring dedicated farming if you want a specific quantity in a timely manner. You are not the target of this thread, I hope you understand. I'm not talking about players with thousands of hours, I am talking the actual grind it would take a fresh group of people or even a fresh person or even just people who don't have the time to unlock this item without grandfathered materials, which was a key point in the first post I made which you clearly didn't read. The point of this thread is not to gather insights on how to actually obtain Hema, because when you think about it, if I or anyone else actually wanted this item bad enough, the opportunity to simply join a random clan with the research already unlocked is always there, but nobody should ever have to resort to that, which is what the item being expensive does, it alienates smaller groups, and your claim that 'ghost clans aren't a real clan' is like some laughably offensive gatekeeping to say the least, especially since there are many Warframe players that actually run ghost clans solo. To oppose that mindset, I would say since the option is there, and there is no minimum amount of players required to run a clan, clearly there is the intention by DE to allow players to run their own clans. Especially now we don't have solar rails or anything like that, and there's no PvP aspect to it. And especially since, when you look at the list of recipes for various resources, everything aside from Hema and the mutagen samples it requires are very reasonable. There is absolutely no reason for Hema to cost as much as it does, and the argument that several people have made about how easy it is to obtain is irrelevant. The item costs too much. tl;dr The point of this thread is to point out that there is an issue with Hema's cost, but also the drop rate on mutagen samples, which I still maintain is certainly too low, especially since we cannot reasonably expect players to buy boosters. This is a free to play game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltage Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 4 hours ago, Flan-Flan said: You are not the target of this thread, I hope you understand. I'm not talking about players with thousands of hours, I am talking the actual grind it would take a fresh group of people or even a fresh person or even just people who don't have the time to unlock this item without grandfathered materials, which was a key point in the first post I made which you clearly didn't read. I did read it. You can't make feedback and silence players for being in a demographic you rather not hear from. A fresh account has the same shot at Hema as I do. Sure, my hours were put in earlier in the game, but I would argue my hours would actually be more than a player now. Why? Because now we have True Master's Font giving an additional booster, Steel Path giving an additional booster, Steel Path's increased spawn mechanics, Pilfering Strangledome on Khora who can deal heavy hits of Slash damage, Helminth, and more. When I farmed for Hema, it was Hydroid (who likely needed Banshee in long runs due to being terrible at killing in long runs), Nekros, Smeeta (which was relatively new at the time), and the classic boosters. The effectiveness in farming for Mutagen Samples has actually grown in modern Warframe, especially with Warframe Revised nerfing enemy scaling heavily. The "actual grind" as you put it is still easier. You just want Hema lowered because you feel that the research is too much for you. I disagreed with the post and left my opinions why. Your decision to not farm for it is your own. New players still have a leg up farming Hema compared to a new player in 2016. 4 hours ago, Flan-Flan said: The point of this thread is not to gather insights on how to actually obtain Hema, because when you think about it, if I or anyone else actually wanted this item bad enough, the opportunity to simply join a random clan with the research already unlocked is always there, but nobody should ever have to resort to that, which is what the item being expensive does, it alienates smaller groups, and your claim that 'ghost clans aren't a real clan' is like some laughably offensive gatekeeping to say the least, especially since there are many Warframe players that actually run ghost clans solo. To oppose that mindset, I would say since the option is there, and there is no minimum amount of players required to run a clan, clearly there is the intention by DE to allow players to run their own clans. Especially now we don't have solar rails or anything like that, and there's no PvP aspect to it. And especially since, when you look at the list of recipes for various resources, everything aside from Hema and the mutagen samples it requires are very reasonable. There is absolutely no reason for Hema to cost as much as it does, and the argument that several people have made about how easy it is to obtain is irrelevant. The item costs too much. tl;dr The point of this thread is to point out that there is an issue with Hema's cost, but also the drop rate on mutagen samples, which I still maintain is certainly too low, especially since we cannot reasonably expect players to buy boosters. This is a free to play game. There is no issue with the cost. The issue lies in the expectation to have trivial research like the rest of the clan research system. I did not state that Ghost clans are not a real clan, I said solo clans aren't. It's an unavoidable fact. The reason I mentioned it is not to make one feel bad for wanting to drive a clan alone, it was merely to outline that you should expect things to take 10x longer than it would for an active and filled Ghost clan who contributes to clan projects. There is a reason it is expensive: to be a bit longer of a goal than: >login after update >click research >wait for research to finish >done Hema is healthy for the game. Clans and alliances as a system need major overhaul in general, and research is just a slice of that. Having more research like Hema is healthy for the clan system. Solo clans really should not be considered in changes to the clan system overall as they are intended for groups of players. The game has conditioned the expectation that expensive items should be suppressed and players should all reach the same goal in less time moving forward. Less time = good is the basic structure many people follow, and I personally think it is unhealthy to apply it everywhere. Hema is one of those topics where I am glad this was not applied. I am not trying to gatekeep the research just because I see why it's healthy to leave the costs as they are. It is up to players whether they want to get it or give up and join an established clan. Clans who have it put in the effort to get it. I was in a Mountain clan when DE added the Tower White pigment to dojos that dropped from Condrocs in the Plains of Eidolon. That research was a piece of work due to Condroc spawn mechanics and the way they dropped. However, my clan wanted the research, so it made an event for it. Discord roles and Platinum distributed to players who contributed the most Tower White pigment. We finished the research no problem due to a dedicated group of people coming together with a goal to smash it out. You need that attitude to finish Hema quickly (when players start at 0 like you stated), and said attitude is healthier for Warframe than lowering the cost so it can be completed with your eyes closed in the dojo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
continue Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 solo beta player here i have three digit mutagen samples, and i will never bother with the hema. most people never will my advice to you: ignore content that is too grindy. it will just make you hate the game if you try to engage with it. hema isn't even that good. it's just a status symbol. there are plenty of better alternatives for all possible use cases, i promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LillyRaccune Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 2 hours ago, Voltage said: Solo clans really should not be considered in changes to the clan system overall as they are intended for groups of players. So many missions were originally invented to rely on the mandatory use of team work. Sadly, that part of Warframe is gone. Anyway I think you are right and more dojo things should require team work (or in this case increased costs). 6 hours ago, Flan-Flan said: tl;dr The point of this thread is to point out that there is an issue with Hema's cost, but also the drop rate on mutagen samples, which I still maintain is certainly too low, especially since we cannot reasonably expect players to buy boosters. This is a free to play game. Warframe is "free to grind". There are far more ways to increase your resource gains now than there were when Hema was released. Slightly off-topic: did you know in "the old days" when you got a booster or resource as a login reward, it was a set amount? Now the login rewards scale with the number of days you've been playing. There is nothing "wrong" with the Hema's cost, it is a "MacGuffin". I suggest you google the expression. The mutagen samples are meant to be a rare drop, just like getting Tellurium on Ophelia and Nitain from Sabotage Caches and Legendary Cores from Sorties. Okay, maybe not that rare. 21 hours ago, Flan-Flan said: (15,000 shadow clan cost is absurd for anyone that doesn't have 'grandfathered' materials ready for it) I farmed the mutagen samples for Hema twice. Once for my PS4 clan and once for my PC clan, there was nothing to "grandfather" because my profiles are just over a year old and so are the clans. I'm a free player. On my PS4 clan it took a long time and was indirectly a blessing because the Octavia Neuroptics bp was just refusing to drop. On PC my warlord "led the assault" and a group of us ground them out, we played a few hours a day and it took about a week. 2 hours ago, continue said: solo beta player here. i have three digit mutagen samples, and i will never bother with the hema. Players like you scare me. I don't have words... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flan-Flan Posted March 24, 2021 Author Share Posted March 24, 2021 Since everyone seems to think that the reason I made this thread is because I personally am upset I don't have Hema, which as 'continue' has stated is actually a garbage weapon that nobody cares about. Additionally, as previously stated, if I particularly wanted the weapon badly enough, I could simply find a clan that actually has it. This is not about me. I'll try and be as succinct since I've otherwise been apparently too verbose. The entire point of this feedback thread which I made in the feedback forum was to send a message to the developers that the item Hema is either too expensive to research with specific regard to mutagen samples, or the drop rate for mutagen samples must be raised. This specific point is being made because of the sheer time investment involved in researching the item, and I think another look needs to be had, four years down the road. Bubonico was released in the form of clan research only recently, it costs something like 35 mutagen samples at Ghost and 105 at Shadow, and it's aggressively cheap. Let's forget whatever the weapon is and what it actually does, let's just look at those costs. It costs, barely anything, to actually research this item, and yet it is a newly released item. This means that someone or someones at DE are looking at items and putting them into the research tables at the dojo, and thinking up a 'fair' cost for them, and then implementing them into the game. This is my point about Hema, it is an outlier and it should be brought in line with all the rest of the recipes within the dojo. Forget the possibility of a 'clan rework' if that'll ever happen or whatever DE possibly intends, this is an issue that should never have been a problem, and four years on it needs another look taken at it, the costs of the research reduced, or the drop rates of mutagen samples increased, simply even if for the fact that the item in question costs a needless amount of resources. It's not about what clan research 'should' be or 'could' be, it's about what it is right now, and it is too expensive. It was too expensive four years ago as well. Railjack too, was too expensive, and they changed that, so why not this? tl;dr I failed to be succinct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltage Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 49 minutes ago, Flan-Flan said: Since everyone seems to think that the reason I made this thread is because I personally am upset I don't have Hema, which as 'continue' has stated is actually a garbage weapon that nobody cares about. Additionally, as previously stated, if I particularly wanted the weapon badly enough, I could simply find a clan that actually has it. This is not about me. I'll try and be as succinct since I've otherwise been apparently too verbose. The entire point of this feedback thread which I made in the feedback forum was to send a message to the developers that the item Hema is either too expensive to research with specific regard to mutagen samples, or the drop rate for mutagen samples must be raised. This specific point is being made because of the sheer time investment involved in researching the item, and I think another look needs to be had, four years down the road. Bubonico was released in the form of clan research only recently, it costs something like 35 mutagen samples at Ghost and 105 at Shadow, and it's aggressively cheap. Let's forget whatever the weapon is and what it actually does, let's just look at those costs. It costs, barely anything, to actually research this item, and yet it is a newly released item. This means that someone or someones at DE are looking at items and putting them into the research tables at the dojo, and thinking up a 'fair' cost for them, and then implementing them into the game. This is my point about Hema, it is an outlier and it should be brought in line with all the rest of the recipes within the dojo. Forget the possibility of a 'clan rework' if that'll ever happen or whatever DE possibly intends, this is an issue that should never have been a problem, and four years on it needs another look taken at it, the costs of the research reduced, or the drop rates of mutagen samples increased, simply even if for the fact that the item in question costs a needless amount of resources. It's not about what clan research 'should' be or 'could' be, it's about what it is right now, and it is too expensive. It was too expensive four years ago as well. Railjack too, was too expensive, and they changed that, so why not this? tl;dr I failed to be succinct. I just think maybe you are not seeing some perspectives here. Your opinion is it's too expensive, my perspective is that basically every research (even Bubonico) besides Hema is too cheap and trivial. What Hema is now is fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EinheriarJudith Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 1 hour ago, Flan-Flan said: ~snip~ absolutely agree. it costs to much and the drop rate of muta samples is bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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