Hema's Cost, Mutagen Sample Drop Rate & Availability

[sunderthefirmament]

13 hours ago, Rantear said:

Have been playing the game for almost 2 years now, solo clan, still no Hema, am I rushing it too much? 🤪

Honestly, main problem with Hema is the fact that mutagen samples, unlike almost every other resource in the game, do not accumulate passively over time, at all.

Since the Deimos update, you can get them passively far easier now.  Use distilling extractors on Deimos.  Also, try to max out your Deimos standings/ranks.  Be a completionist on Deimos, and the Hema will be a lot easier to obtain.

 

Also, with the old derelict now accessible without keys, you can just play there like you would any other area and farm that way.  It's a lot easier to find randos there too.

[Rantear]

Только что, sunderthefirmament сказал:

Since the Deimos update, you can get them passively far easier now.  Use distilling extractors on Deimos.  Also, try to max out your Deimos standings/ranks.  Be a completionist on Deimos, and the Hema will be a lot easier to obtain.

 

Also, with the old derelict now accessible without keys, you can just play there like you would any other area and farm that way.  It's a lot easier to find randos there too.

Bruh.
I use them every day.

Farmed necromechs since day 1, spent there more than 100 hours probably, there's just nothing else left to do.

Also doesn't help that there's generally no reason to go to derelict nodes, other than for the samples themselves, fissures seem to be quite rare on Deimos.

5000 is just too damn high.

[(PSN)iuvenilis]

2 hours ago, Flan-Flan said:

-snip-

Go to the drift. Don't do eris/deimos missions.

Buy a booster, go with your clannies. Probably take anywhere from 1 to 4 weeks depending on how hard you farm.

I did it no dramas as a solo clan.

The old drop rate was complete a$$, they drop in the drift a hellava lot more.

Before deimos dropped, I had probably 600, cause there was no way I was doing that farm. Since deimos dropped, I finished the Hema research months ago.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

I just think maybe you are not seeing some perspectives here. Your opinion is it's too expensive, my perspective is that basically every research (even Bubonico) besides Hema is too cheap and trivial.

What Hema is now is fair.

Some people like to spend a lot of time doing one single thing to get "meh" things. That's fine. However I don't think you are in majority.

[continue]

7 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

Players like you scare me. I don't have words...

i assure you that a mentality of shaming other players for being insufficiently positive does far more damage to the game's community than maintaining indifference and simply allowing people to enjoy the game their way. please try to maintain a respectful atmosphere

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

I just think maybe you are not seeing some perspectives here. Your opinion is it's too expensive, my perspective is that basically every research (even Bubonico) besides Hema is too cheap and trivial.

What Hema is now is fair.

i think what people are trying to say is that your perspective represents a small minority, and though you attempt to present the hema as something that would benefit the majority of players, does not in actuality. i personally don't disagree that it would be great if the clan system was more cohesive and encouraged this kind of group project, but i believe that ship has already sailed. warframe has grown for far too long as a game where a group of individuals comes together to pursue their own interests with minimal teamwork required and then disbands, and the state of the community over the years reflects this.

[Steel_Rook]

15 hours ago, Voltage said:

Not to be condescending, but a solo clan is not a real clan.

Why not? DE specifically implemented systems to scale costs up as clan size increases. Yes, Ghost Clans have an UPPER LIMIT of 10 players, but that doesn't mean that all costs have to scale to 10 players or bust. As far as I'm concerned, Clans stopped being about "multiplayer" the moment DE added tangible benefits to them. Something like a quarter of the game is locked behind clans, so don't fault solo players for wanting in on the system.

[continue]

@Steel_Rookbecause they have a vision for a game that is more teamwork and clan-based, and solo players and clans do not fit into that vision. it's just a conflation between what the game could be vs what it actually is. i think everyone experiences this to some degree in a game with as much potential as warframe

[Tiltskillet]

On 2021-03-23 at 6:49 AM, Tsukinoki said:

Or this is maybe, just maybe a sign that its a group project and goal not a single player goal.

Some people will probably hate me for saying this, but it would make much more sense if there were a few more weapons comparable to Hema in research cost.  Like, even just one per faction.  And particularly if they were expressly labeled, "Sooper Dooper Research Clan Weapon" or somesuch  As it stands, Hema is just this bizarre and extreme outlier, and that will always strike a lot of players as crazy.    It's like if there was one, apparently random focus node in  Vazarin that wasn't anything special but cost 100x any other node in any operator school.

Personally, I can see both points of view.    (Still don't have the weapon myself, although I'm within striking distance if I felt like grinding for it.)

[MobyTheDuck]

The problem with the Hema is because of far more than just the number of mutagen you require.

You see, years ago they changed samples to become a common/uncommon resource instead of a rare one. The thing is, they forgot to change the Mutagen samples on Eris, one of two places that drop them and the only place that had matchmaking at the time. (Derelicts still used the key system)

They balanced the costs thinking that every player would have the same average number of every sample, but everyone I knew and myself had 10x more of the other samples than mutagen.

Even though a lot, and I mean A LOT, of people complained about it, remembering the Sibear problem and how they promised to "never balance stuff with the high end in mind", because they made it cost 30k cyrotic because a portion of players only played excavation all day.

They took a week or so to talk about it, and their answer was basically "we are not doing anything about the costs or the drop rates, go play more derelict" and left at that.

Don't expect them to ever change the costs and always except a few players go "the costs aRe FiNe because I have 9k hours and a big clan, not everything has to be easy to get", like the Hema is some sort of Holy Grail and show how commited you were by buying boosters and playing the same mission over and over, even though it is a completely mediocre weapon.

[LillyRaccune]

48 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Like, even just one per faction.  And particularly if they were expressly labeled, "Sooper Dooper Research Clan Weapon" or somesuch 

Agreed. This is what I would like. Hema isn't worth it. Yes I admit Hema is a little too expensive for Ghost clans (omg I don't want to think about the Moon clan costs), but I agree with Voltage that "Clan Tech" should be more exclusive. However part of that coin is that Solar Rails and Dark Sectors are completely gone. Players can farm for resources, but the actual clan cannot.

3 hours ago, continue said:

please try to maintain a respectful atmosphere

I'm sorry. I had no problem with your "insufficiently positive [...] indifference", it was something else. I'm sorry for offending you.

24 minutes ago, MobyTheDuck said:

"the costs aRe FiNe because I have 9k hours and a big clan, not everything has to be easy to get"

lol, that's not what I said. Btw I'm at less than 1000h, we are a small clan with tops three players on at the same time.

And yes not everything has to be easy to accomplish. Look at what a complaining attitude as achived? *Railjack 3.0 crew members wave hello while I'm AFK brewing coffee.*

[Tiltskillet]

17 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

Agreed. This is what I would like. Hema isn't worth it.

Well, I like agreeing with you Lilly, but I'm not sure we actually do this time.  😋

I think the ideal sooper dooper grindy clan research weapons would have  interesting and better yet unique features, but be easy to ignore from a meta standpoint if one didn't wish to grind for them.  So, I don't have the weapon so can't say for sure, but Hema looks about right to me from that standpoint.

[MobyTheDuck]

14 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

lol, that's not what I said. Btw I'm at less than 1000h, we are a small clan with tops three players on at the same time.

And yes not everything has to be easy to accomplish. Look at what a complaining attitude as achived? *Railjack 3.0 crew members wave hello while I'm AFK brewing coffee.*

I wasnt giving any names or targeting any player in particular, I just said what I saw back then and still see when an Hema discussion pops up.

And I agree, not everything has to be easy to get, BUT something shouldn't be hard to get due overlooked or broken mechanics. If they had fixed the mutagen drop rate on Eris (which is still broken btw) or made the Derelicts accessible to matchmaking, far less people would complain about it.

[DoomFruit]

The cost was BS back then and it's just as much BS now. 5x more than everything else put together is bad enough, but it's worse given that mutagen samples essentially didn't drop in the normal starchart until the derelict was turned into Deimos.

No, just do what I do. Ignore the Hema entirely. Don't grind for it, don't feed its research in the clan and for god's sake, don't plat out for it. The only way in which DE will ever listen to anything is if they lose money from it.

[LillyRaccune]

4 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Hema looks about right to me from that standpoint.

I misunderstood you. I thought by "sooper dooper grindy clan research weapons" you meant meta, super duper powerful weapons. (I'm looking at you, Proboscis Cernos). Yes the gimmicky nature of Hema makes it special without being over powered. There's a lot more potential for cool gimmick weapons than over powered ones. I can imagine using the dual wielded Ak-Ocucor, not over powered but definitely unique.

7 minutes ago, MobyTheDuck said:

BUT something shouldn't be hard to get due overlooked or broken mechanics.

You're right. There are a lot of bugs DE is not trying to fix.

8 minutes ago, MobyTheDuck said:

or made the Derelicts accessible to matchmaking,

I'm confused. The Deimos missions are accessible to matchmaking. I run public squads in them often. Is there some other bug I'm not aware of?

[MobyTheDuck]

1 minute ago, LillyRaccune said:

I'm confused. The Deimos missions are accessible to matchmaking. I run public squads in them often. Is there some other bug I'm not aware of?

I forgot a "back then" there. The derelicts used the old key system, so no matchmaking, only premade squads.

[LillyRaccune]

Ahh, that makes more sense.

[Tiltskillet]

43 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

dual wielded Ak-Ocucor

...

[continue]

1 hour ago, LillyRaccune said:

I'm sorry. I had no problem with your "insufficiently positive [...] indifference", it was something else. I'm sorry for offending you.

no worries, thank you for clearing that up, and i'm sorry for overreacting

[(PSN)crashteddy03]

Looks like I'm a bit late to the party here, but will add my own experience. I've been playing WF for just on two years now, last check was somewhere around 1500 hrs. I joined a friends Ghost clan back when I started but for the last year I have been the only active member (of a full 10 members). At the time I joined, clan research was probably about 50% done, the Hema being one that had been ignored due to the cost. I've worked my way through the remaining research and have done everything except the Hema, the Gravimag and biggest of the Bio Lab pizzas (can't remember which one it is off the top of my head - health maybe?). Oh and the color thingys in the Tenno lab. As of right now, I think I've contributed around 2000 mutagen samples of the 5000 required for the research. I gave up actively farming them with boosters because the drop rate is simply too low, however I do consistently use extractors on Deimos and Eris - this has been my biggest source since the release of Deimos, usually getting around 6 per day.

I'll continue to work towards the research over time, but I did buy the weapon for platinum just for the mastery. I'll also add here that I'm a free player and I farm and trade for 99% of the platinum I've earned.

Do I think the Hema is "overpriced"? Yes. Do I think DE should do something about it? I'm not sure that they could. Even if they were to reduce the research cost, how would that affect those who have already researched it? Refunding the difference into the clan vault?

It would be great to think that there was some either overpowered or stupidly unique weapon that could only be acquired by a ridiculous amount of clan research. Sadly the Hema to me is at best a gimmick weapon. I've not used it at all since I leveled it.

[LillyRaccune]

14 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Yes, the dual-wielded ak-ocucor! Muhuhaha! When one akimbo style weapon isn't enough. It shall be called Ak-ak-Ocucor!

[Flan-Flan]

13 hours ago, Voltage said:

I just think maybe you are not seeing some perspectives here. Your opinion is it's too expensive, my perspective is that basically every research (even Bubonico) besides Hema is too cheap and trivial.

What Hema is now is fair.

To address your comments specifically about the economy of dojo research, I think a rebalance of the system to actually give some sense of weight to the production of anything could be fun, or like a useful resource sink or something like that. Bubonico as it is for example once again is so cheap, I could grind out the resources from nothing in like a single day, so I guesstimate every item in the dojo wouldn't actually be a serious project for any one person - aside from Hema.

The issue with this is that the system as it is now isn't specifically about big groups of players pitching in to make things work, and I think it's for the best. Aside from Hema, I think the most 'expensive' recipes relatively speaking are like, the 100x supply boosters, i.e. shields, energy, health. The 100x health booster, surprise surprise, my clan still hasn't finished researching since all of our mutagen samples are going to Hema. You can also find aside from these things much humbler but even more important items in the dojo you can't obtain otherwise. Wukong, Volt, Banshee, Zephyr, etc are all unobtainable except through dojo research, and I think newer players should be able to rely on access to these without significant trauma, so the suggestion to increase research costs across the board seems especially unfair to them.

Having clans be about 'group projects' and Discord meet-ups and engaging in that capacity, that's also probably fun for someone, but it's not me, and that's why there are variable weights to the dojo research economy. That's why there are different multipliers, so everyone can be happy. This is kind of why I'm bringing up Hema being too expensive.

I don't know what DE plans for the dojo if anything, or for research, but at the moment they clearly are happy to release brand new weapons into it for a pittance. To bring Hema in-line with these weapons and with the rest of the dojo, I would have it lowered because it simply makes logical sense to fit it in with the rest of the game as it is now. It is laughable, it is pathetic to me that someone in 2021 could join the game, create a clan, maybe even have some friends with them, then stumble on the roadblock that is Hema and go, oh, well, I guess we should have just joined a bigger clan then, huh? That's the kind of reason why I think it should be fixed, because of scenarios like that.

Aside from the clan research there are many elements of the dojo that only the actual creators of the clan can use. The dojo for instance has the decoration functions, you can build the thing the way you want and I like those parts of it. Because those aren't open to every player in every clan, small clans exist. Some people just create their own since they prefer solo play.

I'm even willing to compromise and just say mutagen samples should really be easier to farm or have higher drop rates, but something needs to change to make Hema more accessible, because as it stands, it is an outlier, and keeping the recipe cost absurdly high to match non-existent standards in the game as it is now, or simply because other people have already researched it is absurd. It has been 4 entire years since the release of the weapon, and Warframe is so big it doesn't need to play for time to keep people busy with soul-draining content.

[Flan-Flan]

You know what, I'm gonna bump this thread for a couple of significant reasons.

First of all, this is still a relevant problem in 2022. In fact, I would say it's more relevant than ever. Musing upon it, I realized while running some Dragon Key vaults for the week's nightwave that this isn't even really about me. This is about everyone who ever makes a moon or shadow clan, ever. Friends, just newbies, people who want a solo clan, etc etc. There's no possible way to complete Hema solo (5000 samples) as I outlined earlier in my first post in this thread. Players will ever run solo clans so long as there exists the capacity to do so, and seeing as DE a year on still hasn't any clan reworks planned for the immediate future, solo clans will continue to be a problem.

Second of all, the problem I outlined in the math I put forth to prove mathematically that Hema is a truly ridiculous farm, is also almost redundant in itself, when you consider the simple fact that mutagen samples also only reliably drop ('reliably' being used very loosely here) on Deimos. Deimos nodes, in fact. Which nobody has any incentive to run, ever. Even if you're an iso vault hound you'll never earn more than a few samples per run anyway. The places and planets you go to in order to obtain the item in question are still much too out of the way for any ordinary Warframe player. Derelict tileset beyond Dragon Keys (which people only run Horend for because Capture) are prohibitively pointless in 2022 beyond farming for Hema itself, and once you've finished the Deimos grind (everyone eventually completes the Deimos grind since there's no reason to ever come back the way Eidolons lure you in) there is no reason really to spam Deimos bounties, iso vaults or otherwise.

Thus, 5000/15000/50000/etc mutagen samples is STILL too many, and the drop rate is STILL too low, and something absolutely must be done about it. It doesn't matter what players beforehand have done, it doesn't matter what people can farm when kitted out with optimal farming gear and multiple boosters, the fact remains that the numbers are too steep, and something must be done.

Resolutely, I will continue to maintain this until such time that the mutagen sample grind is eased, or Hema is reduced in cost. It is simply inexcusable to leave something like this broken for ANY reason, let alone those stated within this thread already.

[(PSN)iuvenilis]

1 hour ago, Flan-Flan said:

There's no possible way to complete Hema solo

You keep saying that. The fact I, as a solo clan, completed this research by simply cracking open resource crates in Cambion Drift over the course of about a month (without doing any specific farming whatsoever), completely disproves your opinion. Maybe I'm an outlier, but even so, if you were actively farming them, it could be quicker.

Your so called "mathematical proof" from your original post seems to focus entirely on an outdated and inefficient farming strategy. You should really just forget about that method entirely. You may as well be complaining that Iso Vaults are a poor option for farming void traces.

I strongly suggest you simply run around Cambiom drift cracking open crates. Take Xaku if you want to make it a bit easier. Hopefully then you'll start to understand just how easy they are to get. It seems as though your entire argument is based on a false premise.

[cghawk]

I agree, me and my friend have a clan just for the 2 of us and we'll sadly never get the hema, it's just an absurd requirement, I have 968 ingame hours in the game, and I have 358 mutagen samples, my friend has even less than that, we've completed deimos, maxed standing, maxed necraloid standing, every blueprint bought that we needed, every minerals mined that we needed to mine, why should we have to go back to this 1 singular zone for mutagen samples and spend months grinding just for a single weapon? It's a ridiculous requirement, the 2 other similar resources, fieldron(and forgot the other one) aren't as big an issue because their sources are pretty friggin abundant. if we were to grind away for this 1 single weapon we'll burn out on the game, crazy grind.

[Tiltskillet]

5 hours ago, cghawk said:

I agree, me and my friend have a clan just for the 2 of us and we'll sadly never get the hema, it's just an absurd requirement, I

I don't know.  There's frequently Arbitrations on Deimos.  I just did 20 minutes and got 150.  I had a resource booster.  But no Smeeta and no lootframe.   And I don't think that's even an especially large amount.  And just goofing around on Deimos doing bounties or whatever I get a lot too. 

I got the Hema solo, and most of my progress happened fast after Deimos, even though I never played Deimos hard.  I'm probably more patient than most players should be expected to be, and I'm not saying you're wrong about the requirement being absurd.  Just that you'll never get there only if you decide not to bother.  (And if you stick around the game long enough, you'll get it even then.)