Jump to content

TAXIJACK: an irreversible mistake.


Soy77
 Share

Recommended Posts

16 hours ago, Alucard291 said:

I'm glad you know exactly who you are sweet.

Now all that's left is that you let go of your white knighting and your pedantry and rejoin normal human society.

So now I am no longer part of normal human society because I do not agree with your POV?

How refreshing and intellectually stimulating.

To funny.

I am not advocating DE does no wrong, I simply don't agree with the mass complaints and the OTT hyperbole and rage fueling those complaints.

But, I guess, when someone can only see two sides to a thing and no shades of grey/gray, some people feel like they have to make any one who does not jump on their bandwagon the enemy.

'Normal Human Society' - that's a good one!

Edited by Zimzala
  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 часов назад, Zimzala сказал:

Kind of like the 5 people here that try to convince the rest of us RJ is now terrible?

The case on "why corpus RJ is terrible" has been made in excruciating detail even before the release of the update. Hardly our fault that our predictions in workshop turned out to be so precise. At least we actually tried to make devs see it when it wasn't too late yet.

The case keeps being made now that the update is out, and we can rummage through all its miniature and unforseen failures.

Other than playing wannabe psychologist on forum, do you have any real argument for how this update is good? And no, "it allows me to basically not play RJ" isn't going to be accepted.

Edited by Serafim_94
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, (PSN)reddragonhrcro said:

Maybe check the feedback section. You know, where these things actually matter? Plenty of people aren't happy with the Corpus RJ missions as they are in essence just taxi missions that have little to do with Railjack.

And, from my POV, there are also many voices that enjoy the new game additions.

So, the '5 people' thing is totally subjective.

There is simply no definitive 'vote' or statistic, it's just Internet noise right now, full gamer rage on full volume, IMO.

I get that there are vocal people who do not like the change, that's life.

Internet noise from angry gamers after a game update is not, IMO, an accurate gauge of actual acceptance/enjoyment.

Loud does not equate to right or majority.

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Serafim_94 said:

Other than playing wannabe psychologist on forum, do you have any real argument for how this update is good? And no, "it allows me to basically not play RJ" isn't going to be accepted.

Game is much more stable. Whole game runs more smoothly, noticed it immediately.

Love the UI color changes, for color-challenged players it's huge.

We have a new system to grind through with rewards that cross over into the other portions of the game.

The new mode will allow me to play it w/o having to team with other people. (since apparently depending on who you ask, I am not part of normal human society)

I can use more of my arsenal with all the crew, I like using all the things.

Most of all, it shows me DE is still out there experimenting and trying new ideas and I love that.

Now, I feel sure that some is just going to tell me all of that does not matter because they can no longer play RJ they way they wanted and that I am just a jerk for having that opinion, but there it is.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

And, from my POV, there are also many voices that enjoy the new game additions.

So, the '5 people' thing is totally subjective.

There is simply no definitive 'vote' or statistic, it's just Internet noise right now, full gamer rage on full volume, IMO.

I get that there are vocal people who do not like the change, that's life.

Internet noise from angry gamers after a game update is not, IMO, an accurate gauge of actual acceptance/enjoyment.

Loud does not equate to right or majority.

youre right of course.

lets take look at the stats in 3 or 4 months, after the novelty has worn off. im willing to bet right now, railjack player numbers and time will be at all time highs. its seems obvious already that the new system appeals to a broader player base, regardless of how many people are complaining about it, which was the intent in the first place after all. i dont think people understand...the rework wasnt to make railjack "better"...it was to make it playable for more people. theres no denying that that goal has most certainly been achieved.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, cha0sWyrM said:

youre right of course.

lets take look at the stats in 3 or 4 months, after the novelty has worn off. im willing to bet right now, railjack player numbers and time will be at all time highs. its seems obvious already that the new system appeals to a broader player base, regardless of how many people are complaining about it, which was the intent in the first place after all. i dont think people understand...the rework wasnt to make railjack "better"...it was to make it playable for more people. theres no denying that that goal has most certainly been achieved.

If we only had real data for player numbers!

But, as always, we don't actually have the stats, just cobbled together bits of anecdotal data.

Steam Charts does not equate to 'real data' IMO, which is not one shared by many here, I know. A not-bad general indicator, but by no means definitive, IME.

And I agree that so very many players don't understand that DE's vision for WF might not be what some players want. The fascinating part is that so many of those players hang around and either try to parent/bully DE and/or the rest of us into their way of thinking, over realizing it's time to find another game.

The best part is when all of this is presented breathlessly as some huge irreversible mistake...like someone calls every major game change in pretty much all the GaaS game forums I have ever visited...As the Hamster Wheel Turns, I still think that gamer soap opera has legs.

 

Edited by Zimzala
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 минут назад, Zimzala сказал:

Game is much more stable. Whole game runs more smoothly, noticed it immediately.

Love the UI color changes, for color-challenged players it's huge.

We have a new system to grind through with rewards that cross over into the other portions of the game.

The new mode will allow me to play it w/o having to team with other people. (since apparently depending on who you ask, I am not part of normal human society)

I can use more of my arsenal with all the crew, I like using all the things.

Most of all, it shows me DE is still out there experimenting and trying new ideas and I love that.

Now, I feel sure that some is just going to tell me all of that does not matter because they can no longer play RJ they way they wanted and that I am just a jerk for having that opinion, but there it is.

Update being stable should be baseline of quality. You can praise it if you want - it's DE, after all - but it's hardly a major selling point.

Eh. Ok.

Where is that new system? Are you talking about intinsic rework/command? It's hardly a grind. The new old intrinsics are so useless in their majority I freely respecced into command without losing anything of value. If you're talking about plexus change though, I strongly disagree on it being even remotely positive.

The command I like (though it still has a lich #*!%up). However, its current implementation is objectively broken, and not going to stay in the game. Mark my words, DE will not allow us to AFK farm wreckage and intrinsics like we can now.

Allright. I kinda expected more depth to the crew system myself, but ability to give them guns is definitely welcome.

I don't see the experimentation. I see the huge "we give up sign" on this update, as I've already explained in other thread. When you take the "new shiny glasses" off, the Corpus RJ mission structure isn't that much different from Grineer skirmishes. You still have space combat stage and 2 on-foot objectives. Difference is, the second objective now entirely turns RJ off (oh the irony of content islands), while taking longer than any others. At the bare minimum of effort put, those objectives could not waste my time and not self-isolate from the rest of Railjack. At the "acceptable" level of effort, it should have had actual new game modes for RJ itself that DE didn't bother to develop.

And here is the issue. While some of the points you bring up are hard to dispute, they are also very minor. Pardon me, but interface isn't something that will keep me playing or turn me off from the game. There are major, gaping gamedesign holes in this update though. The energy rework. The individualisation of forge supplies. The massive increase of resource sink in form of plexus. The utter shafting of new players entering RJ. The inability to host your own ship, which now actively encourages new players to not even build their own RJ. The ability to establish AFK farms with crews.

Those things actively erode the gameplay experience, which, in turn, will drive the people away from the game. Unlike you or me, they won't come arguing on forums. They'll just not boot the mode or, if it gets far enough, won't boot the game. Many of those holes were visible from miles away, and DE was repeatedly warned about them in their own thread, that they assumingly made to gather feedback. They ignored all of the feedback gathered, but they will be forced to fix those holes over time. Again, I'm ready to bet the crew system automation will be the first on the chopping block, as it cuts into profits.

Issue is, now those necessary fixes will be spread over gods know how much time, taking away time and effort. Because for some reason DE decided to hit every branch falling from that tree, instead of using the ladder.

Edited by Serafim_94
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, Serafim_94 said:

do you have any real argument for how this update is good? And no, "it allows me to basically not play RJ" isn't going to be accepted.

The combat has definently improved, the flux-to-energy changes may not have been the best since it pins us into high energy builds a bit too much or just playing Hildryn/Lavos. Some form of normalized energy system for the RJ would be better, something that adds up better in comparison to Hildryn and Lavos atm. Either by simply using Lavos' CD mechanic or by making Flux reg at a pace equal to that of Hildryn's shields. Since both those frames makes the system feel smooth.

I have nothing against the new missions. Railjack cannot be all about space pew pew, so the more ground focused missions of the corpus differentiates them well from grineer atm. I still think defense and orphix should be removed as a main objective. They just screw up mission pace.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 минуты назад, SneakyErvin сказал:

The combat has definently improved, the flux-to-energy changes may not have been the best since it pins us into high energy builds a bit too much or just playing Hildryn/Lavos. Some form of normalized energy system for the RJ would be better, something that adds up better in comparison to Hildryn and Lavos atm. Either by simply using Lavos' CD mechanic or by making Flux reg at a pace equal to that of Hildryn's shields. Since both those frames makes the system feel smooth.

I have nothing against the new missions. Railjack cannot be all about space pew pew, so the more ground focused missions of the corpus differentiates them well from grineer atm. I still think defense and orphix should be removed as a main objective. They just screw up mission pace.

Ok, seriously. Explain to me how "run through obelisk tileset exterminate" is so fundamentally different from "run through galleon tileset assassinate". People keep praising those ground missions in Corpus RJ like we didn't have them already. Do you guys like endlesses that much? Or did everybody forget there were other nodes than Gian point?

Edited by Serafim_94
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Serafim_94 said:

Update being stable should be baseline of quality. You can praise it if you want - it DE, after all - but it's hardly a major selling point.

Eh. Ok.

Where is that new system? Are you talking about intinsic rework/command? It's hardly a grind. The new old intrinsics are so useless in their majority I freely respecced into command without losing anything of value. If you're talking about plexus change though, I strongly disagree on it being even remotely positive.

The command I like (though it still has a lich #*!%up). However, its current implementation is objectively broken, and not going to stay in the game. Mark my words, DE will not allow us to AFK farm wreckage and intrinsics like we can now.

Allright. I kinda expected more depth to the crew system myself, but ability to give them guns is definitely welcome.

I don't see the experimentation. I see the huge "we give up sign" on this update, as I've already explained in other thread. When you take the "new shiny glasses" off, the Corpus RJ mission structure isn't that much different from Grineer skirmishes. You still have space combat stage and 2 on-foot objectives. Difference is, the second objective now entirely turns RJ off (oh the irony of content islands), while taking longer than any others. At the bare minimum of effort put, those objectives could not waste my time and not self-isolate from the rest of Railjack. At the "acceptable" level of effort, it should have had actual new game modes for RJ itself that DE didn't bother to develop.

And here is the issue. While some of the points you bring up are hard to dispute, they are also very minor. Pardon me, but interface isn't something that will keep me playing or turn me off from the game. There are major, gaping gamedesign holes in this update though. The energy rework. The individualisation of forge supplies. The massive increase of resource sink in form of plexus. The utter shafting of new players entering RJ. The inability to host your own ship, which now actively encourages new players to not even build their own RJ. The ability to establish AFK farms with crews.

Those things actively erode the gameplay experience, which, in turn, will drive the people away from the game. Unlike you or me, they won't come arguing on forums. They'll just not boot the mode or, if it gets far enough, won't boot the game. Many of those holes were visible from miles away, and DE was repeatedly warned about them in their own thread, that they assumingly made to gather feedback. They ignored all of the feedback gathered, but they will be forced to fix those holes over time. Again, I'm ready to bet the crew system automation will be the first on the chopping block, as it cuts into profits.

Issue is, now those necessary fixes will be spread over gods know how much time, taking away time and effort. Because for some reason DE decided to hit every branch falling from that tree, instead of using the ladder.

So, you "just don't like it" and/or, you "don't like how DE is doing it".

OK.

What you see as 'game design flaws' I simply see as 'things DE put in WF', without the default stance of trying to critique each little detail.

All those things you bring up? I see as just details that tweaks will alter.

Simply a totally and completely different POV to play games, IME/IMO.

I look for fun things to do with my play time and I do those things.

Looking to nit-pick a video game to take the makers 'to task' is a Job, IMO, not a fun way to spend leisure time.

Did everything turn out the way DE intended? Probably not. Will DE keep on tweaking stuff? Probably.

Will I just enjoy the games that makers create and avoid the ones I don't, and bits of one I don't, like Conclave, without trying to re-engineer them on forums with emotional, OTT claims of 'irreversible  mistakes"? Yep.

Edited by Zimzala
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Serafim_94 said:

Ok, seriously. Explain to me how "run through obelisk tileset exterminate" is so fundamentally different from "run through galleon tileset assassinate". People keep praising those ground missions in Corpus RJ like we didn't have them already. Or do you guys like endlesses that much?

The difference is that corpus missions have a higher focus on the ground combat while grineer is the same as before. If people think it is "just the same", then what do people complain about? And where did the "taxi" claim come from if it is the same as with grineer? Logic would say that it was already a taxi then, but people claim the update "caused" that. And who says they like endless? Asking for endless to be removed from the main mission objective indicates endless love in what way exactly?

edit: I mean, DE is effectively adding what people complained about being missing earlier, which was core missions inside RJ to be less of an island. But now people complain about RJ not being seperate enough? I mean, make up your #*!%ing minds!

edit: Kinda reminds me of a kid getting chocolate ice cream and complains that he wants strawberry. And then when he gets the strawberry he suddenly wants chocolate again. 

Edited by SneakyErvin
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 минут назад, SneakyErvin сказал:

The difference is that corpus missions have a higher focus on the ground combat while grineer is the same as before. If people think it is "just the same", then what do people complain about? And where did the "taxi" claim come from if it is the same as with grineer? Logic would say that it was already a taxi then, but people claim the update "caused" that. And who says they like endless? Asking for endless to be removed from the main mission objective indicates endless love in what way exactly?

I personally complain that it's just the same. Which, for me, quickly stopped being enough even in old RJ. One of the most consistent critiques of initial RJ was lack of mission variety. I absolutely fail to see how that changed. I'm yet to play that one new gamemode they introduced though - maybe it will blow my mind out or something.

About endless missions - it's the only tangible difference in mission structures between Corpus and Grineer. That's why I asked if you like them so much they make the difference for you.

As for taxi claim... I don't fully agree with it. It's hard to deny that command intrinsic trivializes the game mode to the point most of RJ plays itself now. In that sense, even Grineer missions turned into "fly from point A to point B". Though I suspect that's not what others here have in mind.

Edited by Serafim_94
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Serafim_94 said:

I personally complain that it's just the same. Which, for me, quickly stopped being enough even in old RJ. One of the most consistent critiques of initial RJ was lack of mission variety. I absolutely fail to see how that changed. I'm yet to play that one new gamemode they introduced though - maybe it will blow my mind out or something.

About endless missions - it's the only tangible difference in mission structures between Corpus and Grineer. That's why I asked if you like them so much they make the difference for you.

As for taxi claim... I don't fully agree with it. It's hard to deny that command intrinsic trivializes the game mode to the point most of RJ plays itself now. In that sense, even Grineer missions turned into "fly from point A to point B". Though I suspect that's not what others here have in mind.

I agree it is the same overall. I'm just pointing out the objective weight has changed. The ground missions have also improved, since they work better for solo play compared to grineer missions. Corpus doesnt require you to go in and out a couple of times on ground missions. Instead, when they want you to blow something up in space it is at a different location after you are fully done with the ground objective of the mission. On grineer maps it is in>out>in>out>in>railjack and then at times repeat at a different objective.

And for me the difference is more in the hack mission aswell as volatile, since both offer new mission types.

The thing that makes RJ dull to me is that it is far too easy now. RJ at release was a good step up in tougher mobs, but after all the scaling changes and now being used to Steel Path as the new normal, RJ kinda feels like strolling through earth missions. It certainly didnt help that they buffed the RJ guns either and added the crew that turn into perfect gunners and engineers. You simply cannot fail in RJ when playing solo.

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

So, you "just don't like it" and/or, you "don't like how DE is doing it".

Sorry to interject, but you seem to completely disregard that there are ways to actually define good and bad design. It's not a matter of opinion. The change to energy economy is objectively bad, because it fails to uphold the reason for which it was carried out without adding completely artificial and unnecessary restrictions to the player's choice. 

The aim of the change, as stated in the developer's workshop and devstream, was to give personal resource pools so that nobody can waste your energy/ammunition. And while it accomplishes that, it also comes with an unnecessary set of problems that could have been avoided in their entirety by simply providing separate Flux pools that get simultaneously replenished by the engineer. And the problems are:

-You are forced to use a high energy warframe, with a high energy build, if you want to effectively use battle avionics. Your warframe becomes a stat stick.

-You can completely bypass Railjack's energy economy with Pizzas/Protea/Garuda

-Engineers have been expropriated of one of their main tasks, providing Flux for the ship, since pools replenish individually

Who do these changes benefit?

Yes, sure, you could ignore all of it, but why should you force yourself to do so? Why should you have to look beyond easily fixable flaws, that enforce unnecessary metas, that remove choice, and make the gamemode impossible to balance thanks to the overabundance of ability spam? What if I really liked being an engineer, but the changes made my role much less relevant? Or if I like running around with Nidus, or any other low energy frame, and suddenly couldn't use it effectively in Railjack, for no reason whatsoever, other than the developers dealing with an issue in the most inefficient way possible? Sometimes it's not "opinion", it's just bad design. 

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)ShonFr0st said:

Yes, sure, you could ignore all of it, but why should you force yourself to do so? Why should you have to look beyond easily fixable flaws, that enforce unnecessary metas, that remove choice, and make the gamemode impossible to balance thanks to the overabundance of ability spam? What if I really liked being an engineer, but the changes made my role much less relevant? Or if I like running around with Nidus, or any other low energy frame, and suddenly couldn't use it effectively in Railjack, for no reason whatsoever, other than the developers dealing with an issue in the most inefficient way possible? Sometimes it's not "opinion", it's just bad design. 

I am not forced into anything, I am just playing a game.

IME, it's just outlook.

Yes, I get that the minutiae based choices in the numerical design of the code and the gameplay are important.

Yes, I get the POV that since energy is wrapped around the frame for RJ and that makes some people unhappy.

Will DE change that aspect if it appears to make a large enough portion of the player base unhappy? Dunno.

I still do not consider these things in terms of design flaws, just stuff DE is tryin to see what sticks. If the energy distribution is not WAI from DE's POV, then perhaps it gets tweaked.

I simply totally disagree that these things force anyone to do anything, that's just min-maxers IMO worried they are using the 'wrong meta'.

I see ALL the equipment given to us as Tenno as a tool box from which to pull the right tool for the right task, not this idea of 'mains'.

We see these things in a fundamentally different way, IMO.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Serafim_94 said:

There's no point arguing with him. You've seen things he thinks are enough for the update to be good. UI changes.

What's the point of arguing about any of it?

We all have our stated outlooks, and I for one am happy to explain why I have the outlook I do.

I don't think the update is 'an irreversible mistake', or anything approaching such an OTT description. that's just my opinion, nothing more.

From my POV, the update is just an update, neither good nor bad, simply because I don't chose to judge it in that way.

I see things in the update I like. I have not, as of yet, encountered anything I dislike.

Good and Bad are all just subjective, IMO, even if some posters want to claim this or that is 'objectively bad game design'.

It's all just opinions. I do hope no one here actually thinks they are going to change the minds of other gamers reading the forums, that's like a finding a Unicorn in the front yard, IME.

If one is actually trying to change the minds of forum posters on a GaaS game General Forum about how to see new game changes, they have way more passion about stuff than I do.

There are never really definitive 'endings' to these discussions, IME.

Edited by Zimzala
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 минут назад, Zimzala сказал:

What's the point of arguing about any of it?

We all have our stated outlooks, and I for one am happy to explain why I have the outlook I do.

I don't think the update is 'an irreversible mistake', or anything approaching such an OTT description. that's just my opinion, nothing more.

From my POV, the update is just an update, neither good not bad, simply because I don't chose to judge it in that way.

I see things in the update I like. I have not, as of yet, encountered anything I dislike.

Good and Bad are all just subjective, IMO, even if some posters want to claim this or that is 'objectively bad game design'.

It's all just opinions. I do hope no one here actually thinks they are going to change the minds of other gamers reading the forums, that's like a finding a Unicorn in the front yard, IME.

If one is actually trying to change the minds of forum posters on a GaaS game General Forum about how to see new game changes, they have way more passion about stuff than I do.

There are never really definitive 'endings' to these discussions, IME.

The point is the same as in any discussion - trying to get a better understanding of the issues, establish your arguments and then try and make a push for devs to acknowledge those arguments and improve things. The last part, I agree, is a lost cause, as DE purposefully ignored any feedback given to them. So that leaves the second purpose - just venting and killing time.

Would people like you have their way, we'd still have release liches and release POE on our hands. Because "it's neither good nor bad, and why try to change anything". Why even have forums them, right? You yourself bring nothing of value to those discussions, because you literally chose to not have a point. So instead you poke into peoples heads pretending to understand what they think, and tell people to just shut up. Which is, frankly, not welcome.

Edited by Serafim_94
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Serafim_94 said:

The point is the same as in any discussion - trying to get a better understanding of the issues, establish your arguments and then try and make a push for devs to acknowledge those arguments and improve things. The last part, I agree, is a lost cause, as DE purposefully ignored any feedback given to them. So that leaves the second purpose - just venting and killing time.

Would people like you have their way, we'd still have release liches and release POE on our hands. Because "it's neither good nor bad, and why try to change anything". Why even have forums them, right? You yourself bring nothing of value to those discussions, because you literally chose to not have a point. So instead you poke into peoples heads pretending to understand what they think, and tell people to just shut up. Which is, frankly, not welcome.

Discussion is awesome, IMO. Arguments? Not so much. Word lawyering, I know, but since we cannot communicate face-to-face, I do what I can to be specific.

Where you think I am telling people to 'shut up', IMO, you are not understanding what I am trying to convey.

Yes, I am much more interested in Why people want to make certain changes the motivations behind those changes over the minutiae of the changes they present. Why? Because even if DE implements, it will be with DE's math, not the players, so in the end, the Idea is what matters, IMO, not the minutiae.

Many of the ideas presented come from a POV IME that is simply counter to what DE, or other game company, has in mind. To talk about the reasons behind the Ideas is important, to me. Is the Idea to make the game easier/harder and for whom, exactly? Is the idea trying to promote only a certain playstyle or sub-group of players? Is the Idea something that has worked or crashed in a different GaaS game? The glimpses answers to these questions show me if the ideas originate from a place of actually trying to improve the game, or just get rewards fatter so gamers can 'finish' and move on, etc.

When it's obvious that a person does not like something in the game just because they don't like it and want to change it, regardless of what DE is trying or wants to do, I like to point that out in an effort to show that idea might be a waste of time to push, because it runs counter to the design, etc. When changes come from a very obvious emotionally charged POV, then again, I question the motives.

IME, some people just get really angry when I continue to ask Why?

So, my point, most of the time, gets buried, because it's simply "Why does this make you upset?" because it does not make me upset, then I get the rage because I won't get on the band-wagon.

As for thinking the developers really listen to General Forum for real data, or that these threads really make a big difference, I learned long ago from working in the business that is, also, a Unicorn, IME.

So yeah, the forums are here to let us vent.

Edited by Zimzala
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The combat has definently improved, the flux-to-energy changes may not have been the best since it pins us into high energy builds a bit too much or just playing Hildryn/Lavos. Some form of normalized energy system for the RJ would be better, something that adds up better in comparison to Hildryn and Lavos atm. Either by simply using Lavos' CD mechanic or by making Flux reg at a pace equal to that of Hildryn's shields. Since both those frames makes the system feel smooth.

 

yeah this is a real issue. as much as i think the new changes are good...they really should tie the ships energy consumption/replenishment to the ship itself. it doesnt make much sense the way it is now....and, as you mentioned...makes this mode a one frame affair.

i was using tittania, and wukong for speed on the ground missions....but lavos as pilot just takes the ships energy use right out of the equation, with lavos you can just spam seeker volley/tether/blackout over and over until the skies are clear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Zimzala said:

Will DE change that aspect if it appears to make a large enough portion of the player base unhappy? Dunno.

The point, in my opinion, is not that it "makes a large portion of the playerbase unhappy". That might be the consequence, but the main problem is that some choices DE makes are completely counterintuitive, for no apparent reason, and they clearly clash with pre-existing systems. Again, like the energy change, which in one fell swoop created a strict frame meta while leaving many other frames in the dust, while it doesn't have to be that way. The problem is not only for "min-makers" (btw, you seem to generalize quite a lot, despite using as one of your main points that of subjectivity, and people being different), it's just the age old issue of this game's design making you decide between feeling strong through the clearly better picks, and going efficiently from mission to mission getting rewards faster, or using what you like. Where "what you like" is not an MK1-Braton, which of course falls behind in the power curve, but Warframes, or weapons in the highest MR brackets, which are supposed to progress horizontally, without massive power spikes. Yes, "right tool for the job" applies here, but in the specific example of Railjack, the "right tool" for battle avionics usage is a handful of specific strategies that vastly outclass the others, with negative outliers as well, and Railjack as a system already contains a layer of gear choices based on the various objectives, thus making the two conflict with each other. 

These, for me, are grounds objective enough to judge something as "bad design", and if you do not agree with such a definition, you are very welcome to challenge my views. Throwing around that "good and bad are all subjective" is just a way to remove any chance to create common ground, which is the essence of a good discussion. Holding an opinion doesn't immediately make that opinion right, that's why discussion exists. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, (XBOX)ShonFr0st said:

These, for me, are grounds objective enough to judge something as "bad design", and if you do not agree with such a definition, you are very welcome to challenge my views. Throwing around that "good and bad are all subjective" is just a way to remove any chance to create common ground, which is the essence of a good discussion. Holding an opinion doesn't immediately make that opinion right, that's why discussion exists. 

These POVs being opinions on events out of our control is creating a 'common ground', IMO. I realize you do not agree.

So, again, we just approach the topic from very different POVs.

IMO, unless it does make a large portion of the players unhappy, then it is not a bad design, for example.

In this specific case, the energy use of RJ, it changes nothing IMO. Some people will think "I cannot use the frame that I want, it's broken" while others will think, "Oh yeah, I like lots of energy in RJ, I'll pick a frame I have with lots of that". As in, choices matter. making choices matter seems like win to me, where others see it as forcing them to do things. Pure POV.

Outlooks is what I see, not broken game design forcing something on players.

And yes, I make generalizations about groups of players as part of discussions for a frame of reference. Sometime my personal opinion of those gamer groups slips through. 🤣

Admitting to oneself that what one thinks about code changes in a GaaS game is an opinion and not objective fact is, to me, a step toward the common ground, because none of us posting here are the definitive authority in this matter, since one does not exist, TMK, there is no definitive Game Code Bible for GaaS games that are presented as Entertainment outlining what is good or bad. It is all Subjective, my outlook has not changed on that for about 20 years. Entertainment is Subjective.

Plainly, I am well aware my words are just the culmination of my data gathering formed into a semi-coherent rant most of the time, but I also think the same about any other posts. It's just people with data having opinions.

Edited by Zimzala
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-03-23 at 9:26 AM, Zimzala said:

Cognitive Dissonance is the super power of the human brain.

I have been a gamer and around gamers for over 40 years and nothing has changed.

Much like the meme where someone says the only difference in the way someone looks (creepy or not), is if you are attracted to them, all of this perceived drama is on the person, not the games.

Sure, companies outright lie and take money, but IME, this is just not what is happening with WF, even if some people are so full of FUD it's all they can think.

Games and virtual worlds are where many people have the only place they can 'control'. When from their POV they can no longer control the narrative, it really impacts them. I get that. But that's ALL in the brain chemistry of the individual, not the 'fault' of a game company.

The more humans treat these virtual worlds as if they are real life, the more we will see this.

We are, IMO, deep into the beginning of society trying to treat these online worlds in a very dangerous way, as if they are real life, when it's just pixels in a fantasy.

Thank you, fellow Old Dude. I salute you.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Zimzala said:

We see these things in a fundamentally different way, IMO.

This is off topic, but I just wanted to interject with this real quick - you see these things in a fundamentally different way than just about everyone, and I know it can rub some posters the wrong way, but I personally enjoy reading your posts because they provide a perspective I likely never would have considered otherwise.

I still disagree with you on a lot, but that’s okay. People don’t need to agree on everything, and I still appreciate your unique perspective.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-03-23 at 2:15 PM, TomCruisesSon said:

They added ways to get bonus rewards that aren't just hide n seek, they added  sub-missions and a new mission that encourages constant movement and speed. They brought in crewships with vertical level designs. We have crew members that can keep our railjack safe while taking care of business.  They actually unvaulted some primes warframes and weapons that don't require a lot of grind. We can use mechs in more areas now. If you wanna focus on the two weakest points of the update then go ahead. But its obvious there's a lot more promise here than people are willing to admit.

Yeah, these are all nice additions, but the real meat of the game is in the missions. Needing to wait in an airlock for the rest of my team so we can do a cryopod defense missions kinda spoils the experience after doing a cool ship sabotage a few minutes earlier.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...