TAXIJACK: an irreversible mistake.

[GEN-Son_17]

On 2021-03-23 at 10:28 AM, Soy77 said:

anyone remember Top Gear? that stupid show about cars featuring 3 silly british guys?
on series 17 episode 1, richard hammond was reviewing the Marauder, and Jeremy Clarkson opened with these lines:

"many people say that last year they stop making the Hummer because it's too big, and too silly.
however, richard hammond said the reason it has gone west is because it wasn't big or silly enough."

then it shows a vehicle far bigger and more outrageous than the Hummer: the Marauder.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

the episode, if anyone feeling nostalgic

in my most honest opinion, rj had potential. it have the graphics, it have the physics, it's already better than half of star wars copycats out there. all it need was slightly better enemy a.i, and more engaging mission types. it could be a really decent space combat game. the fact that it's actually just a little game mode inside warframe, only makes it even more impressive.

and just like that marauder, i always preached that rj wasn't bad because it doesn't have enough warframe in it. it's bad because it doesn't have the balls to ditch warframes and just go all the way into the space combat territory.

==============

a little backstory about me. i'm relatively a new player, i just played warframe for almost a year. my first huge event was Orphix Venom, and boy it was a game changer for me.
i managed to get my first arcane there, energize was the energy solution that i've been looking in my entire noob career. i maxed out a couple more arcanes, even managed to sold quite a few to turn my fortune around. i was a poor noob no more. i bought a couple of vaulted warframes and weapons, which granted me access to higher level of contents inside warframe. nowadays i fear very few things inside this game. i still have long way to go, but i know i can work for whatever build i need to make. i have the ability to do that, thanks to OV.

of course when OV actually started, i was still a poor noob with bad builds. but i learned that to kick tushies in OV, all i need was one good mech. so i built one: a voidrig with like 5 formas iirc, put around 3 or 4 formas on my fluctus as well, poor boy gambled and put everything i had left on the arquebex.
the gamble pays off. that voidrig is heavily pimped with neat bruntspar skin now. that's if i ever need it. with my vast collection of frames, weapons, and mods, i rarely got my back against the ropes that i need to call my trusty old voidrig.

why are you bragging now you little... ok i'm sorry. my point is: i turned my whole fortune around inside this game, with just one decent voidrig.

 

won't it be novel and romantic if some other rookies can turn his or her whole fortune in this game, just by being a good pilot and having a good ship...?

you know... like han solo and his millennium falcon. the first reason why he joined luke's crew is because he's a darn good pilot with a darn good ship. wouldn't it be cool if you can be a han solo in warframe?

==============

i built the heck out of my railjack.

most people don't like the game mode so they barely played it. but me and plenty others sucked it up and actually hunted for the best mkiii parts. we valanced the heck out of them and ended up with ship among ships. something that made us proud every time we step foot on our dry docks.
ironically, even after having such powerful ship, the missions that i keep coming back to whenever i want to play rj are the first three on earth. because they're truly railjack missions: you fly your ship around, you shoot some bad guys, then pull out the big cannon to finish up the biggest baddies.

call me crazy, but i often pretend that it's just an awesome space combat game while playing it. which wasn't that hard to do, actually.

i often dreamed that DE would put some more mission types for rj.
missions where i don't have to step out of the ship, and get back in again, and step out again, and get back in again.
rj capture where you dogfight with an actually good grineer crewship that'll challenge your piloting skills. or even just simple rj racing through some space rings, so people who have build their ships can put their speed to the test. i never claimed to be a better game developer than DE, so i'm not forcing those ideas. but you know, should DE ever need any ideas, they could always just play some space combat games out there. ace combat have been doing it for decades, there are gotta be a mission type or two that DE can "borrow". warframe has been borrowing ideas from countless other games after all. *CoughHardNemesisSystemCough

==============

of course, building your railjack nowadays simply means that you only completed "half" of the mission.
you still gotta have good frames and builds, so when your taxi ride ends, you can actually do the actual mission.

but the milk has been spilled. there's no use for me crying or getting riled up in the forums over it.
from the moment i downloaded the update and saw that most of the early nodes that i liked are deleted, i immediately realize what has happened.
this is what DE meant by "incorporating more railjack into the main game modes". it means forcing regular warframe missions into poor old railjack.

what could've been a totally kickas space combat game, now is just usual warframe with extra steps.
and to be honest, i just can't see DE owing another mistake for the second time. it was already pretty embarrassing the first time they did it, and it took YEARS for them to try fixing it. DE are nice, but they're not cdpr.
i imagine they'll just stick to their guns this time, they have plenty of supporters. back when i preached that rj should go the space combat route, a lot of people insisted that it's a bad idea, rj should embrace warframe core gameplay instead. they've won.

"why are we playing [insert mech/ship/mining/conservation or whatever here] in a game called warframe??"
i guess we won't. we'll just continue to play warframe from now on, with extra steps here and there, but this game will be nothing but warframes. you guys have won.

==============

some of you might wonder then what is the point of this gruelingly long post?

i'm very sorry to inform you that i'm not trying to convince anyone about anything. i just have to let this out of my system.

turns out, this long post is simply my goodbye.
it's me saying goodbye to my hopes and dreams that rj could be a good mode that i can enjoy someday. to the little boy inside my heart that hoped he can have a little bit of that star wars fantasy he grew up with, in his favorite game, warframe.

i finally can let go of that dream now. so long...

So I took another read of your post and, although I very much get where you're coming from, I think you've placed to much into this update and not enough into how DE historically operates. Hopefully, this could restore some of your hope:

There will be a MASSIVE war between all factions soon. Everyone. Right now, we have two different play-styles geared for two of the 5 main factions: grineer and corpus. This also means RJ now caters to an even larger audience since the corpus playstyle is different enough to please another part of the player base. Warframe is variety's paradise. There are more planets left, more moons, Deimos, Eris, Lua and the sentient world. The grineer style can easily be expanded at any time, meaning more of the gameplay type you love will be available and, perhaps, seasonal as the factions overpower each other just like in some tilesets.

Scarlet spear gave us a few sentient fighters and a hint at how an active RJ + active sentient ship invading team could work (not including the ground team). DE won't be allowing ships the ability to "hide in the sentient ship anymore so that would force a potentially endless survival against sentient fighter squadrons until the boarding team completes the mission on the ship...or in Tao, who knows. Scarlet spear II can work insanely well as survival and spy type gameplay, especially with progressively tougher fighters and sentient "cruisers".

The infested can take over ships, like with Jordas. Not hard to figure out that they will join the space fight. Eris has yet to make a move and this is where we may see the infested in space action. Sidenote: Am I the only one the noticed Deimos looks exactly like a live, infested alien head with tentacles?

In essence, I think DE set RJ up REALLY well. Updating both gameplay types means you and the opposing you will have ple ty to look forward to. Personally, I can't wait to see how crazy it gets!

 

[cha0sWyrM]

4 hours ago, Alucard291 said:

And you're saying that people will after this patch? After the hardcore completionists got all the junk from the loot tables and all the mastery xp? Hah spare me.

i hope you dont mind but i read that with a 1920s bad guy accent.

anyhoooo. yes thats exactly what im saying. do you even know who plays this game? new players....thats who. everyone likes to moan and cry that de caters to new players...well...yeah...thats who the bulk of their player base is and thats who spends money on plat to skip the grind. sorry bub...but de wants new players to play railjack...they couldnt before and now they can.

done and done.

[Alucard291]

3 hours ago, cha0sWyrM said:

i hope you dont mind but i read that with a 1920s bad guy accent.

anyhoooo. yes thats exactly what im saying. do you even know who plays this game? new players....thats who. everyone likes to moan and cry that de caters to new players...well...yeah...thats who the bulk of their player base is and thats who spends money on plat to skip the grind. sorry bub...but de wants new players to play railjack...they couldnt before and now they can.

done and done.

Hahahaha new players? They don't last long enough to get to venus let alone get a railjack. 

[Circle_of_Psi]

I mean, the only way I can think of them doing this correctly if they what they showed in the Demo. Missions that are live active, while another player is doing a mission on say PoE or doing a normal mission and they get new objectives to help an RJ Crew that is on the same spot.

There's a alot they can do, but they rather show what they "chuold" do

[George_PPS]

On 2021-03-23 at 10:28 AM, Soy77 said:

anyone remember Top Gear? that stupid show about cars featuring 3 silly british guys?
on series 17 episode 1, richard hammond was reviewing the Marauder, and Jeremy Clarkson opened with these lines:

"many people say that last year they stop making the Hummer because it's too big, and too silly.
however, richard hammond said the reason it has gone west is because it wasn't big or silly enough."

then it shows a vehicle far bigger and more outrageous than the Hummer: the Marauder.

  Hide contents

 

the episode, if anyone feeling nostalgic

in my most honest opinion, rj had potential. it have the graphics, it have the physics, it's already better than half of star wars copycats out there. all it need was slightly better enemy a.i, and more engaging mission types. it could be a really decent space combat game. the fact that it's actually just a little game mode inside warframe, only makes it even more impressive.

and just like that marauder, i always preached that rj wasn't bad because it doesn't have enough warframe in it. it's bad because it doesn't have the balls to ditch warframes and just go all the way into the space combat territory.

==============

a little backstory about me. i'm relatively a new player, i just played warframe for almost a year. my first huge event was Orphix Venom, and boy it was a game changer for me.
i managed to get my first arcane there, energize was the energy solution that i've been looking in my entire noob career. i maxed out a couple more arcanes, even managed to sold quite a few to turn my fortune around. i was a poor noob no more. i bought a couple of vaulted warframes and weapons, which granted me access to higher level of contents inside warframe. nowadays i fear very few things inside this game. i still have long way to go, but i know i can work for whatever build i need to make. i have the ability to do that, thanks to OV.

of course when OV actually started, i was still a poor noob with bad builds. but i learned that to kick tushies in OV, all i need was one good mech. so i built one: a voidrig with like 5 formas iirc, put around 3 or 4 formas on my fluctus as well, poor boy gambled and put everything i had left on the arquebex.
the gamble pays off. that voidrig is heavily pimped with neat bruntspar skin now. that's if i ever need it. with my vast collection of frames, weapons, and mods, i rarely got my back against the ropes that i need to call my trusty old voidrig.

why are you bragging now you little... ok i'm sorry. my point is: i turned my whole fortune around inside this game, with just one decent voidrig.

 

won't it be novel and romantic if some other rookies can turn his or her whole fortune in this game, just by being a good pilot and having a good ship...?

you know... like han solo and his millennium falcon. the first reason why he joined luke's crew is because he's a darn good pilot with a darn good ship. wouldn't it be cool if you can be a han solo in warframe?

==============

i built the heck out of my railjack.

most people don't like the game mode so they barely played it. but me and plenty others sucked it up and actually hunted for the best mkiii parts. we valanced the heck out of them and ended up with ship among ships. something that made us proud every time we step foot on our dry docks.
ironically, even after having such powerful ship, the missions that i keep coming back to whenever i want to play rj are the first three on earth. because they're truly railjack missions: you fly your ship around, you shoot some bad guys, then pull out the big cannon to finish up the biggest baddies.

call me crazy, but i often pretend that it's just an awesome space combat game while playing it. which wasn't that hard to do, actually.

i often dreamed that DE would put some more mission types for rj.
missions where i don't have to step out of the ship, and get back in again, and step out again, and get back in again.
rj capture where you dogfight with an actually good grineer crewship that'll challenge your piloting skills. or even just simple rj racing through some space rings, so people who have build their ships can put their speed to the test. i never claimed to be a better game developer than DE, so i'm not forcing those ideas. but you know, should DE ever need any ideas, they could always just play some space combat games out there. ace combat have been doing it for decades, there are gotta be a mission type or two that DE can "borrow". warframe has been borrowing ideas from countless other games after all. *CoughHardNemesisSystemCough

==============

of course, building your railjack nowadays simply means that you only completed "half" of the mission.
you still gotta have good frames and builds, so when your taxi ride ends, you can actually do the actual mission.

but the milk has been spilled. there's no use for me crying or getting riled up in the forums over it.
from the moment i downloaded the update and saw that most of the early nodes that i liked are deleted, i immediately realize what has happened.
this is what DE meant by "incorporating more railjack into the main game modes". it means forcing regular warframe missions into poor old railjack.

what could've been a totally kickas space combat game, now is just usual warframe with extra steps.
and to be honest, i just can't see DE owing another mistake for the second time. it was already pretty embarrassing the first time they did it, and it took YEARS for them to try fixing it. DE are nice, but they're not cdpr.
i imagine they'll just stick to their guns this time, they have plenty of supporters. back when i preached that rj should go the space combat route, a lot of people insisted that it's a bad idea, rj should embrace warframe core gameplay instead. they've won.

"why are we playing [insert mech/ship/mining/conservation or whatever here] in a game called warframe??"
i guess we won't. we'll just continue to play warframe from now on, with extra steps here and there, but this game will be nothing but warframes. you guys have won.

==============

some of you might wonder then what is the point of this gruelingly long post?

i'm very sorry to inform you that i'm not trying to convince anyone about anything. i just have to let this out of my system.

turns out, this long post is simply my goodbye.
it's me saying goodbye to my hopes and dreams that rj could be a good mode that i can enjoy someday. to the little boy inside my heart that hoped he can have a little bit of that star wars fantasy he grew up with, in his favorite game, warframe.

i finally can let go of that dream now. so long...

That DE likes to carelessly destroy players’ hard earned progress, in game items or Rivens is a terrible game design strategy that each time drives many players away. 

Although I haven’t invested time in Railjack, I agree with this sentiment and also the analysis. I used to play a lot more and spend time to perfect and max everything. Now I don’t bother to so and don’t recommend this game to any other friends who have not played it. I remember the game used to have better flow and have more powerful Melees and also many gun Rivens. DE destroys them one by one for fixing “problems”.

the design philosophy of any games shouldn’t be seeing the games as problems. They should be like Disneyland where players are looking for fun. 

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

6 hours ago, coot33 said:

Without gian point there is less reason to play it. It is possible you can make a veil jack corpus exterminate a endless gian point since it appears the crew ships and fighter respawns endlessly. The big difference will be the lack of public squad for it as it requires to not go and trigger the exterminate mission to keep the farm going.

People were almost exclusively playing Gian Point though. That is not healthy for the game mode in general.

Besides, people like you fail to remember this game is called WARFRAME, not Elite Dangerous! Having Railjack be purely a space shooter while the frames that you put most of your time and investment into being reduced to window dressing is pretty frickin' dumb, if you put any actual thoughts into your asinine arguments.

[Marvelous_A]

I like skirmishes. But as a matter of fact the "new" RJ missions certainly are not everything the system has to offer. In some missions you use RJ the whole time. In some it carries you to the mission area and leaves you there. In some mission it assists you in some way while you do something else. Just like operator. So I am still cautiously optimistic to the whole RJ thing.

[Dunkelheit]

Am 23.3.2021 um 18:31 schrieb (PSN)Madurai-Prime:

There's already threads on it.

There's still "oldschool" RJ missions.

NO NO NO... some opinions are just too important and absolutely deserve their own thread. If you write in an already existing thread, you are one in several. If you open your own thread, you are special! Always open your own thread, or are you not an Alpha?

[VncSx]

H

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

15 hours ago, Zimzala said:

IMO, unless it does make a large portion of the players unhappy, then it is not a bad design, for example.

So good and bad comes down to... mob mentality? Instead of rationally analyzing the matter? The logical continuation of such as statement is also that apparently good and bad changes through time with the influence of personalities like YouTubers, who can sway large portions of the active population, and we all know the abominable ideas that come out of that platform. I remember when melee 3.0 was released, people were screaming "melee is dead". Was it bad design then? Because now, people are upset because it's getting nerfed to an extent. So now Melee 3.0 is suddenly good design, and the nerf is bad? By that notion, every nerf in the history of the game is bad by definition, because it upset a relevant portion of the community, but I think we can both agree that nerfs are at times required to make sure variety has any meaning. Then again, if tomorrow DE decided to multiply the reward acquisition rate by 20 in all activities, that would be the best design choice in the history of the game, as mostly everyone would be incredibly happy, except DE would go out of business in the blink of an eye. As you can see, I disagree with the base concept. Good and bad design is judged through argumentations around the relationships of various systems, otherwise it's just a shouting contest where the only winner is the one that makes the most noise. 

15 hours ago, Zimzala said:

As in, choices matter. making choices matter seems like win to me, where others see it as forcing them to do things. Pure POV.

Except what happens here isn't much of a choice, is it? A choice has any meaning if you can weigh the options against each other, with pros and cons that are comparable. I'll use Destiny as an example just because it's another GaaS I know well: let's say you are preparing your equipment for a mission. You can choose between a sniper rifle or a shotgun for a special weapon. They both have similar overall DPS, but their damage application varies drastically. And with a variety of encounter ranges in missions, there's no clearly better option, so it comes down to personal preference. Now look at the flux change: one option (high energy frames) can spam battle avionics at their heart's content, while the other (low energy frames) can barely cast one... for no compensation whatsoever, and no reason behind the change. Sure, you can technically still "choose" and your choice affects gameplay, but you have to decide between a clearly inferior choice that you might like, or the handful of blatantly superior alternatives. You are pitting fun and personal preference against efficiency.

Games are entertainment. That entertainment, in a looter shooter/GaaS/whatever title to generalize Warframe's mechanics, comes from both gameplay, which is affected by your playstyle, and reward acquisition, which is affected by your efficiency. If a change to the game's systems makes the two conflictual with each other, it detracts from someone's entertainment. It's not a matter of outlooks or POVs, it's just a fact until proven otherwise. 

[taiiat]

it's okay for Railjack to have normal on ground stuff too. i think that actually adds to it. it makes it a combined forces encounter.

but i will agree that there is not enough space game in the space game part of that encounter. the Enemies are unimportant to your Mission, you could even just ignore them unless the game requires you to Kill them.
note, requiring us to Kill them would not make it better, then it's the same tedious slog we already had of having to chase down Enemies to fill a counter. that's no good either.

 

 

where's the way to make that work? it's for both space game and on ground to be in unison, just like Digital Extremes was "advertising" before releasing it. you know that 'Volatile' Gamemode we have now, and the Grineer ones that have the Radiators? that's the inklings of having it really be combined so that everything is relevant. having someone kkijigger some stuff on an Enemy Cruiser, giving your Railjack opportunities to blast something off of a Ship or whatnot.

will that be Solo friendly? well, nope. so i guess it would have to be restricted to something vaguely like a Raid, where it's expected that you have to work together to do it.

they're trying here, and it's closer to what Railjack should feel like, we have actual Enemy Craft that are larger than a Mosquito to deal with - however these are just set pieces, they aren't actual Enemies. being actual Enemies would be the next leg on this Chair. yes, people really do want to have those Star Wars sort of combined forces attacks! a Saboteur(s) helps the attacking force destroy the Enemy """Mothership""" by sabotaging its stuff, then the attacking force blows it out of the sky. while that Enemy craft, well, actually moves around and attacks in realtime as one cohesive Enemy.
i know, it's more complicated to be that way. but it's also what would be the most interesting to play. imagine it like scaling the Crewships wayyyyyyyyyyyy up. they have Crew operating stuff on the inside, and also important functional bits - just have to connect all of that stuff to the actual things the ""Mothership"" does, and you've got yourself a great combined forces combat based Objective!

[TeaHands]

12 hours ago, Gentleman_Bird said:

Yeah, these are all nice additions, but the real meat of the game is in the missions. Needing to wait in an airlock for the rest of my team so we can do a cryopod defense missions kinda spoils the experience after doing a cool ship sabotage a few minutes earlier.

Lets hope the defense mission problem gets addressed, that's definitely been one of the most consistently brought up problems with the update and I agree. That and energy. Just pointing out there were some good with the bad added to this update. Now that I completed all the defense missions in the proxima I'm gonna avoid them and play the missions I enjoy until it gets addressed.

[Serafim_94]

2 часа назад, Ace-Bounty-Hunter сказал:

People were almost exclusively playing Gian Point though. That is not healthy for the game mode in general.

Besides, people like you fail to remember this game is called WARFRAME, not Elite Dangerous! Having Railjack be purely a space shooter while the frames that you put most of your time and investment into being reduced to window dressing is pretty frickin' dumb, if you put any actual thoughts into your asinine arguments.

There was enough warframe gameplay in OG railjack. Boarding, getting boarded, objectives - all of those required you to take your guns and #*!% some S#&$ up with them.

And I don't care what the game is called. If I boot up Railjack, I want to play Railjack. I have the rest of the game to run warframes through regular objectives. It's that autistic "why are we playing mechs in Warfame" all over again. Because it's fun.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

5 minutes ago, Serafim_94 said:

There was enough warframe gameplay in OG railjack. Boarding, getting boarded, objectives - all of those required you to take your guns and #*!% some S#&$ up with them.

And again I refer you to Gian Point which required none of that. Didn't help matters that it was the most efficient Intrinsics farm in the game.

Which is why DE made a good call in removing it.

[SneakyErvin]

41 minutes ago, Serafim_94 said:

And I don't care what the game is called. If I boot up Railjack, I want to play Railjack.

And DE's intent has always been that RJ intregrates regular WF into the mode, that has been the idea since even before WF released, when the idea of RJ was held back due to technical limitations. So removing something like Gian that only node played, was just sensible and correct, since it went against the idea of what RJ was supposed to add to the game. Better they do it this "early" than later down the line.

[(XBOX)Madinogi]

ok im going to say it, so many in this comment section are just.....so uneducated on the railjack subject, (im looking at you, who think the update made it better all because now its less railjack and more warframe)

 

a truely amazing mode that has so much potential has just been effectively gutted for the rest of us because a section of the playerbase couldnt swallow their pride an admit that Railjack wasnt for them, and just vow to not touch it, and leave it be for those who genuinely love the mode, the same they did for conclave. they didnt change conclave into a PvPvE mode to appease those who didnt like it because it "wasnt warframe" 

we had a great game mode within the game itself that we can go and play to change things up instead of running the same missions over and over for years hunting relics and prime gear, or exploring a open world. now its 99% like the rest of the game, the railjack is now just a afterthought for the player, and more of a mode of transportation much like the archwing became starting in PoE with the introduction of the Archwing launcer. 

 

most of you folk who say this are even self admitting to not liking OG railjack or never even played it in its prior state, so pardon me if i have to consider youre opinions as uneducated and easily invalid, given the fact you didnt play it to get a proper grasp of the modes issues and what needed to actually happen. 

one being that its not accessible to new players, thats imperically false. i just brought a new player under my wing and clan a week ago, and he was a MR0 at the time, after he got MR1 we got him his Archwing only a few hours later, he was then immediately able to join me on the HMCS Windsor RJ-150 (My Railjack) and was holding his own in the missions even got to rank 7 intrinsics in only a hour or 2. 

 

this update made the new corpus missions primarily Ground based, leaving the Railjack as some gimmick, or afterthought. something that railjack isnt suppose to be about (DUH its called RAILJACK for a reason) 

 

all that needed to happen was touch on some small issues with the mode, and add the command intrinic to allow more solo friendly play, and more content in the form of new factions, and mission types that are effectively just railjack versions of the mission tyes we know of in the base warframe, easy examples

 

SURVIVAL: Fight for 5 minutes at the least agaisnt endless spawns of enemie fighters and crewships, being able to use NAV once 5 minutes have passed, and return to the drydock, If youre railjack however ends up hitting 0 HP its mission fail, and you are sent back to the drydock. KEEP THE SHIP ALIVE AT ALL COSTS!

EXTERMINATE: load in and commit a full assault on their space forces to severly hinder their space based efforts, killing so many crew ships and fighters as needed for the mission, no ground objectives here. 

DEFENSE: Fly to the location of a friendly ship thats salvaging a Wreck for parts or other goods and defend it from enemy ships for so many waves, eventually moving onto anouther wreckage in the area for anouther salvage opperation. 

MOBILE DEFENSE: using the mechanic of the scarlet spear event, you pick up a sattelite at the front of the railjack and deliver it to 3 locations to defend as it disrupts the enemy force in some way, 

RESCUE (Railjack version of Rescue in base Warframe): Fly to a Friendly Freighter carrying supplies for the Tenno thats being besieged by enemy fighters and crewships and eliminate them, send a team aboard to restore basic functions using the Omni tool and get the ship moving towards the extraction point, all the while protecting it from fighters and crewships using the railjack and repelling boarders and keeping the ship patched up while onboard. 

just to name a few, this would effectively lead to a varriety of game modes, some using only the railjack, and some incorperating ground combat, such as the escort mission type. causing peopl to not grow stale of playing the exact same mission type over and over again, but also playing those missions agaisnt different factions that could lead to different strategies being imployed. 

 

they could potentially even add in assassination missions where you take down a notable boss enemy using a capitol ship. (Vay Hek, Nef Anyo, Parvos Granum) just to name a few notable names that we can take out of the picture for good. 

 

[Loza03]

16 minutes ago, (XBOX)Madinogi said:

ok im going to say it, so many in this comment section are just.....so uneducated on the railjack subject, (im looking at you, who think the update made it better all because now its less railjack and more warframe)

 

a truely amazing mode that has so much potential has just been effectively gutted for the rest of us because a section of the playerbase couldnt swallow their pride an admit that Railjack wasnt for them, and just vow to not touch it, and leave it be for those who genuinely love the mode, the same they did for conclave. they didnt change conclave into a PvPvE mode to appease those who didnt like it because it "wasnt warframe" 

we had a great game mode within the game itself that we can go and play to change things up instead of running the same missions over and over for years hunting relics and prime gear, or exploring a open world. now its 99% like the rest of the game, the railjack is now just a afterthought for the player, and more of a mode of transportation much like the archwing became starting in PoE with the introduction of the Archwing launcer. 

 

most of you folk who say this are even self admitting to not liking OG railjack or never even played it in its prior state, so pardon me if i have to consider youre opinions as uneducated and easily invalid, given the fact you didnt play it to get a proper grasp of the modes issues and what needed to actually happen. 

one being that its not accessible to new players, thats imperically false. i just brought a new player under my wing and clan a week ago, and he was a MR0 at the time, after he got MR1 we got him his Archwing only a few hours later, he was then immediately able to join me on the HMCS Windsor RJ-150 (My Railjack) and was holding his own in the missions even got to rank 7 intrinsics in only a hour or 2. 

 

this update made the new corpus missions primarily Ground based, leaving the Railjack as some gimmick, or afterthought. something that railjack isnt suppose to be about (DUH its called RAILJACK for a reason) 

 

all that needed to happen was touch on some small issues with the mode, and add the command intrinic to allow more solo friendly play, and more content in the form of new factions, and mission types that are effectively just railjack versions of the mission tyes we know of in the base warframe, easy examples

 

SURVIVAL: Fight for 5 minutes at the least agaisnt endless spawns of enemie fighters and crewships, being able to use NAV once 5 minutes have passed, and return to the drydock, If youre railjack however ends up hitting 0 HP its mission fail, and you are sent back to the drydock. KEEP THE SHIP ALIVE AT ALL COSTS!

EXTERMINATE: load in and commit a full assault on their space forces to severly hinder their space based efforts, killing so many crew ships and fighters as needed for the mission, no ground objectives here. 

DEFENSE: Fly to the location of a friendly ship thats salvaging a Wreck for parts or other goods and defend it from enemy ships for so many waves, eventually moving onto anouther wreckage in the area for anouther salvage opperation. 

MOBILE DEFENSE: using the mechanic of the scarlet spear event, you pick up a sattelite at the front of the railjack and deliver it to 3 locations to defend as it disrupts the enemy force in some way, 

RESCUE (Railjack version of Rescue in base Warframe): Fly to a Friendly Freighter carrying supplies for the Tenno thats being besieged by enemy fighters and crewships and eliminate them, send a team aboard to restore basic functions using the Omni tool and get the ship moving towards the extraction point, all the while protecting it from fighters and crewships using the railjack and repelling boarders and keeping the ship patched up while onboard. 

just to name a few, this would effectively lead to a varriety of game modes, some using only the railjack, and some incorperating ground combat, such as the escort mission type. causing peopl to not grow stale of playing the exact same mission type over and over again, but also playing those missions agaisnt different factions that could lead to different strategies being imployed. 

 

they could potentially even add in assassination missions where you take down a notable boss enemy using a capitol ship. (Vay Hek, Nef Anyo, Parvos Granum) just to name a few notable names that we can take out of the picture for good. 

 

It's worth pointing out that DE is likely planning on making a substantial chunk of new  content for Railjack - in other words, to make Railjack the new norm going forward, rather than putting it off to the side (for example, Tempestarii is also going to be a RJ focused update). If a big chunk of the audience didn't like Railjack, then that's a problem, because now you have a big chunk of your audience that isn't going to enjoy any new content.

Perhaps DE has over-corrected? Maybe. I certainly think some of your gamemode suggestions are good. But the goal always was to be a hybrid ground/space mode with strong integration into the base gameplay, not a side-mode sectioned off from the rest of the game. That's what it was always depicted as, always described as, and always was going to be to some extent.

[cha0sWyrM]

4 hours ago, Alucard291 said:

Hahahaha new players? They don't last long enough to get to venus let alone get a railjack. 

now youre just being silly.

im sorry you dont like the new railjack system. unfortunately for you though...it does exactly what de wants it to do, so im afraid they're likely going to leave it this way. you can argue all day up down left right.....it doesnt matter. the intention was to make railjack more accessible and allow more people to play it...not make it more fun for you.

if you dont like the new system...do what everyone else has been doing for the past year and just dont play it. lets see if a lack of vet. players all boycotting railjack makes de take another look.

though...if i were you, i wouldnt hold my breath.

[Zimzala]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)ShonFr0st said:

So good and bad comes down to... mob mentality? Instead of rationally analyzing the matter? The logical continuation of such as statement is also that apparently good and bad changes through time with the influence of personalities like YouTubers, who can sway large portions of the active population, and we all know the abominable ideas that come out of that platform. I remember when melee 3.0 was released, people were screaming "melee is dead". Was it bad design then? Because now, people are upset because it's getting nerfed to an extent. So now Melee 3.0 is suddenly good design, and the nerf is bad? By that notion, every nerf in the history of the game is bad by definition, because it upset a relevant portion of the community, but I think we can both agree that nerfs are at times required to make sure variety has any meaning. Then again, if tomorrow DE decided to multiply the reward acquisition rate by 20 in all activities, that would be the best design choice in the history of the game, as mostly everyone would be incredibly happy, except DE would go out of business in the blink of an eye. As you can see, I disagree with the base concept. Good and bad design is judged through argumentations around the relationships of various systems, otherwise it's just a shouting contest where the only winner is the one that makes the most noise. 

Except what happens here isn't much of a choice, is it? A choice has any meaning if you can weigh the options against each other, with pros and cons that are comparable. I'll use Destiny as an example just because it's another GaaS I know well: let's say you are preparing your equipment for a mission. You can choose between a sniper rifle or a shotgun for a special weapon. They both have similar overall DPS, but their damage application varies drastically. And with a variety of encounter ranges in missions, there's no clearly better option, so it comes down to personal preference. Now look at the flux change: one option (high energy frames) can spam battle avionics at their heart's content, while the other (low energy frames) can barely cast one... for no compensation whatsoever, and no reason behind the change. Sure, you can technically still "choose" and your choice affects gameplay, but you have to decide between a clearly inferior choice that you might like, or the handful of blatantly superior alternatives. You are pitting fun and personal preference against efficiency.

Games are entertainment. That entertainment, in a looter shooter/GaaS/whatever title to generalize Warframe's mechanics, comes from both gameplay, which is affected by your playstyle, and reward acquisition, which is affected by your efficiency. If a change to the game's systems makes the two conflictual with each other, it detracts from someone's entertainment. It's not a matter of outlooks or POVs, it's just a fact until proven otherwise. 

To a degree, yes, in the human condition, 'good v bad' is, in fact, determined by the masses, IME. Why? Because not all humans value the same things. In the case of a GaaS game, if the players that like a thing give the most money, then the playstyle created for those players can become dominant, regardless of if some portion of the players still see those mechanics as 'bad'. Beta vs VHS comes to mind.

As far as choice, part of choice is to accept some choices will be less 'efficient', for any number of reasons, than some other gear. So what? Use the gear you want to use. IMO, it's only in the mind of the player that simply cannot 'allow themselves' to not use the meta that this is big problem, IME. Part of choice is accepting that not all choices are equal. The game is not a communist state. Not all things have to work equally.

There is no moral or other 'rule' that demands all gear work equally in all places and tasks. Especially in a game built around gather more diverse gear.

Compensation? Playing the game is Entertainment and that Entertainment is the only Compensation a GaaS game is supposed to be giving, IME. If you want 'more rewards per minute' to be your outlook on what is good or bad to 'play', then, IMO, you are no longer 'playing', you are 'working'.

Some people like to be efficient. Some others, like me, don't care and are happy to smell the roses, even if it takes me longer to clear the same content. Neither of these is right or wrong, just different.

If I can pick gear and clear content, where is the problem? Just because my choice of gear might clear content faster or slower? Choices have to make a difference or why have the choice?

IMO, many, if not most, of the 'end results' of these types of outlooks means, to me, just give everyone the same three weapons and the same frame, no fun in that.

So yes, if you want to be the 'most powerful and efficient', then you will talk yourself into choosing specific meta gear. If you are just here to have fun, like me, some players just don't have that desire to put the game on fast-forward.

Good and Bad are based on ones personal outlooks and desires. If you want to talk about 'mathematical efficiency' or 'algorithmic speed for content removal', then sure, there can be Objectively 'better' things for those tasks, but if someone considers the whole idea of going fast to be 'bad', then those players will not think these things are 'good', because it's not how they 'play'.

Outlooks. Opinions. There is no higher authority here to determine what is Good or Bad, just gamers with outlooks and opinions.

[Alucard291]

4 minutes ago, cha0sWyrM said:

now youre just being silly.

im sorry you dont like the new railjack system. unfortunately for you though...it does exactly what de wants it to do, so im afraid they're likely going to leave it this way. you can argue all day up down left right.....it doesnt matter. the intention was to make railjack more accessible and allow more people to play it...not make it more fun for you.

if you dont like the new system...do what everyone else has been doing for the past year and just dont play it. lets see if a lack of vet. players all boycotting railjack makes de take another look.

though...if i were you, i wouldnt hold my breath.

Sure I'm being silly by stating what is pretty well known. The vast vast majority of new players have never reached fortuna let alone rj.

The rest is just some nonsense you made up in your head. There's going up be the whole new 15 minute quest which will likely involve rj. Past that? This mode is basically "done" and will never be looked at again.

 

[Zimzala]

17 hours ago, Tokomi_ said:

Thank you, fellow Old Dude. I salute you.

Thanks. Had an original Pong game, on a TV that still had to be manually tuned, no 'click' positions.

To me, all of these games are just better versions of that.

15 hours ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

This is off topic, but I just wanted to interject with this real quick - you see these things in a fundamentally different way than just about everyone, and I know it can rub some posters the wrong way, but I personally enjoy reading your posts because they provide a perspective I likely never would have considered otherwise.

I still disagree with you on a lot, but that’s okay. People don’t need to agree on everything, and I still appreciate your unique perspective.

The whole reason I post what I post, to be blunt, is to break the echo chambers so many gamers try to create in an effort to own the narrative of a game.

IME, vocal modern GaaS gamers have tried for years to turn these games into Jobs or Lifestyle Games and I have seen, first hand, how detrimental these outlooks can be for at risk players. 

I just try to see Games as Fun and Entertainment, not some Pillar in my Emotional Fabric and I especially try to avoid wrapping my emotional outlook around Game features there is no way I can personally re-code for my happiness. I think allowing changes in a game to wreak your emotional outlook is dangerous and I am not afraid to yell about it, because I know there are at risk player watching these narratives, looking for POVs that can help them remain safe.

[Alucard291]

1 minute ago, Zimzala said:

Thanks. Had an original Pong game, on a TV that still had to be manually tuned, no 'click' positions.

To me, all of these games are just better versions of that.

The whole reason I post what I post, to be blunt, is to break the echo chambers so many gamers try to create in an effort to own the narrative of a game.

IME, vocal modern GaaS gamers have tried for years to turn these games into Jobs or Lifestyle Games and I have seen, first hand, how detrimental these outlooks can be for at risk players. 

I just try to see Games as Fun and Entertainment, not some Pillar in my Emotional Fabric and I especially try to avoid wrapping my emotional outlook around Game features there is no way I can personally re-code for my happiness. I think allowing changes in a game to wreak your emotional outlook is dangerous and I am not afraid to yell about it, because I know there are at risk player watching these narratives, looking for POVs that can help them remain safe.

All I'm going to say is, you live a very boring life.

But to answer that last para of yours:

I think spending so much time on the forums is far far more dangerous. Most people vent every now and then and move on. To you however every opinion (that doesn't praise DE) seems to be worth an angry tirade.

In short before trying to "save" others you may want to consider saving yourself.

[cha0sWyrM]

13 minutes ago, Alucard291 said:

Sure I'm being silly by stating what is pretty well known. The vast vast majority of new players have never reached fortuna let alone rj.

The rest is just some nonsense you made up in your head. There's going up be the whole new 15 minute quest which will likely involve rj. Past that? This mode is basically "done" and will never be looked at again.

 

yeah...i think you have missed the point here. railjack was already done and no one was already looking at it. even if youre right....who cares? if de changes a dead game mode and fails to revive it...so what? at least they tried. what would you have them do....just leave it all terrible and impossible for people to play? thats a great idea.

 

[Zimzala]

Just now, Alucard291 said:

All I'm going to say is, you live a very boring life.

But to answer that last para of yours:

I think spending so much time on the forums is far far more dangerous. Most people vent every now and then and move on. To you however every opinion (that doesn't praise DE) seems to be worth an angry tirade.

In short before trying to "save" others you may want to consider saving yourself.

Thanks for your concern, I love my nice quiet, boring life, I tell people that all the time, actually.

Still trying to pin me as a White Knight I see as well, good to stay on target, I guess...

I will be the first one to say I should spent less time on game forums, we all have our bad habits. 🤣

To be clear, based on your prose in this thread alone though, I don't really care what you think, since you are, from my POV, just a bitter, angry gamer, with nothing of value to share with me. I could be wrong, but I am going to go with my instincts here.

Good luck in life, we will not interact any further. 🖖

[Alucard291]

4 minutes ago, cha0sWyrM said:

yeah...i think you have missed the point here. railjack was already done and no one was already looking at it. even if youre right....who cares? if de changes a dead game mode and fails to revive it...so what? at least they tried. what would you have them do....just leave it all terrible and impossible for people to play? thats a great idea.

 

I have a feeling that we're talking about the same thing in a roundabout way. The only difference is that you hope it won't become archwing due to this patch and I'm sure that it has been turned into archwing precisely because of this patch.

The other major difference is that i feel it was a waste of development time that's all.