Hey element damage, why are you the way you are?

[(XBOX)Apoll0 666]

Ah, yes the "element" damage of warframe, Viral, Fire, and Toxin. Oh yes my bad I forgot about the other few, so did DE apparently. I think each elemental should be viable in some way and/or situation and weaker in some. This is the case yes, but because of terrible ideas(that wont be changed) and implementations the elements wont ever work properly. Corrosive for example was "OP" but because a nerf it's literally useless unless you're using it against lvl 60 and below(In my experience), example: I tested this with an Ignis wraith on different grineer enemy types in simulacrum(lvl 90) and each and ever time Viral beat corrosive in kill time by at least twice to even 4x as fast. Grineer are hard to kill because of their high armor, fire/corrosive should be the solution because "ooga booga armor get rekt" is their motto, but still, there is viral which doesn't care too much about that and straight up ups damage so painstakingly high that a strong weapon like the Ignis W has no issue with high armor but it would with an armor reducing element type. I myself see this as a problem. Just as fire should be used against nature types in some monster fighting game, the armor corroding element should be used against armored enemies. Elements like viral are exceedingly fit for every single enemy except corpus, even then it's still viable by tenfold compared to the element that on paper should be used against them: magnetic. DE ruined the concept of elements and their viability in certain situations by the way they were implemented, such as toxin being able to bypass shields, why is magnetic even around if this is the case? A single base element is better than an elemental combo with higher damage and even a damage amplifier, that's just utterly so wrong in a gaming/elemental damage concept. DE could help this a tad by adding new enemy types, such as an overshield only(no hp, like a true robot) corpus "miniboss" similar to the ever so tanky grineer Nox. I know that DE will (most likely) never significantly change how elements work and the basis of how they are now instead of tweaking numbers and limits(which can help but they'll prob do that wrong if they attempted). I myself think if anything we should add new enemy types, a variety of enemy types is literally one of the simplest fixes in games where elemental damage is a concept and it provides actual build variety. Don't wanna change the elements we're dealing to enemies? Ok, then change the enemies(or add a few oddballs in my theoretical situation). 

Does anyone else think that new enemy types that make you actually consider how to mod your weapons and equipment should be in the game? I only ever see talk about the inital elements and changing them or their stats(which would only break them or switch their place as "OP" with another element), I myself think that adding more factors to elemental damage with new enemies is a good and simple-ish way of taking a step towards fixing the elemental inbalance. You shouldn't go into a mission thinking "Hmm, so viral or toxin", cold is fun at times and radiation can be funny crowd control but it's never the best way to eliminate enemies. Radiation is beautiful for defense and other things but like I said it's viability in it's job will always be overshadowed by elements like viral and toxin or even fire. Where there are overpowered elements, put them in a situation where others will shine where they fail instead of the current situation where 1-3 of the 10 elemental options are the ones to be used 95% of the time.  What are your thoughts on this and do you think that new enemy types will be a step forward to a balance for elements? If not explain why plz because I don't understand why this is never an option I see taken into consideration, I may be completely wrong and thinking in a crappy way, I wish to understand.

[(XBOX)Apoll0 666]

I prefer not to edit this post, but I do understand that there is enemy variety but like I said the way the elements are implemented with the current enemy variety completely nullifies the viability and build variety of elemental damage.

[Kainosh]

53 minutes ago, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

I prefer not to edit this post

 Aha....an "S" 

 

I think that Element's Proc should not affect enemies with Resistance to said Element. 

For example, Viral proc should never be applied to enemies with resistance to Viral damage.  

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

2 minutes ago, Kainosh said:

 Aha....an "S" 

 

I think that Element's Proc should not affect enemies with Resistance to said Element. 

For example, Viral proc should never be applied to enemies with resistance to Viral damage.  

That'd be an interesting change!

Would it? Viral/corrosive on Grineer would be the same, toxin on Corpus would be the same. Might break slash procs tho

[Bigredteletubby]

Some elementals are more useful/powerful than others, but, 1) that's always gonna be the case, and 2) you don't need a min-maxed build for the vast majority of content in this game. So, tbh, pretty much all the elemental types are useful in certain situations. I do hope gas damage gets a rework tho...

[Gahrzerkire]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

Ah, yes the "element" damage of warframe, Viral, Fire, and Toxin. Oh yes my bad I forgot about the other few, so did DE apparently. I think each elemental should be viable in some way and/or situation and weaker in some. This is the case yes, but because of terrible ideas(that wont be changed) and implementations the elements wont ever work properly. Corrosive for example was "OP" but because a nerf it's literally useless unless you're using it against lvl 60 and below(In my experience), example: I tested this with an Ignis wraith on different grineer enemy types in simulacrum(lvl 90) and each and ever time Viral beat corrosive in kill time by at least twice to even 4x as fast. Grineer are hard to kill because of their high armor, fire/corrosive should be the solution because "ooga booga armor get rekt" is their motto, but still, there is viral which doesn't care too much about that and straight up ups damage so painstakingly high that a strong weapon like the Ignis W has no issue with high armor but it would with an armor reducing element type. I myself see this as a problem. Just as fire should be used against nature types in some monster fighting game, the armor corroding element should be used against armored enemies. Elements like viral are exceedingly fit for every single enemy except corpus, even then it's still viable by tenfold compared to the element that on paper should be used against them: magnetic. DE ruined the concept of elements and their viability in certain situations by the way they were implemented, such as toxin being able to bypass shields, why is magnetic even around if this is the case? A single base element is better than an elemental combo with higher damage and even a damage amplifier, that's just utterly so wrong in a gaming/elemental damage concept. DE could help this a tad by adding new enemy types, such as an overshield only(no hp, like a true robot) corpus "miniboss" similar to the ever so tanky grineer Nox. I know that DE will (most likely) never significantly change how elements work and the basis of how they are now instead of tweaking numbers and limits(which can help but they'll prob do that wrong if they attempted). I myself think if anything we should add new enemy types, a variety of enemy types is literally one of the simplest fixes in games where elemental damage is a concept and it provides actual build variety. Don't wanna change the elements we're dealing to enemies? Ok, then change the enemies(or add a few oddballs in my theoretical situation). 

Does anyone else think that new enemy types that make you actually consider how to mod your weapons and equipment should be in the game? I only ever see talk about the inital elements and changing them or their stats(which would only break them or switch their place as "OP" with another element), I myself think that adding more factors to elemental damage with new enemies is a good and simple-ish way of taking a step towards fixing the elemental inbalance. You shouldn't go into a mission thinking "Hmm, so viral or toxin", cold is fun at times and radiation can be funny crowd control but it's never the best way to eliminate enemies. Radiation is beautiful for defense and other things but like I said it's viability in it's job will always be overshadowed by elements like viral and toxin or even fire. Where there are overpowered elements, put them in a situation where others will shine where they fail instead of the current situation where 1-3 of the 10 elemental options are the ones to be used 95% of the time.  What are your thoughts on this and do you think that new enemy types will be a step forward to a balance for elements? If not explain why plz because I don't understand why this is never an option I see taken into consideration, I may be completely wrong and thinking in a crappy way, I wish to understand.

to put it simply DE doesnt understand that 3x damage is better then 1.75x damage. (viral v corrosive on status weapons) 

essentially the reason elements dont make any sense is because no one on the dev team has done the damage math and the more do play this game the more apparent that becomes over time as what is good makes literally no sense. 

for example a pure physical damage build on any weapon with crit semi decent status and slash (so NO ELEMENTAL MODS AT ALL) will outperform most weapons when scaling is involved. 

Daikyu pure phys builds with -puncture rivens are insanity. 

[STUVash]

• Block of text burnt my eyes but ok.
  
  So just to clarify on some points. Enemies have damage resistances where elemental damage is often involved. Depending on what you're fighting or intend to do with your build going for a specific element is a good idea.
  
  This game has RPG elements, in such a way that each element is different. Expecting each and everyone of them to be equal is naive, but each has their own uses.
  I'm using all elements on a regular basis depending on the weapon and enemies ahead.
  
  You could choose one specifically based on one or multiple factors depending on your needs.
  
  1) Is it related to the enemy weakness ?
  
  Using the enemy weakness means having a higher damage with no status involved. This is good to know overall and even more important when dealing with enemies that resist Status. And even if the enemy does not resist Status like say Viral. It doesn't prevent you from still wanting the damage to exploit the enemy weakness on another weapon.
  You'd apply Viral in one way or another for the Health damage multiplier and then use the damage weakness for an even Greater effect.
  Unfortunately most enemies die like flies from our overpowering gear, but if you ever want to make use of this game mechanic, you can always reduce your gear efficiency to rely on Damage Types some more.
  
  Some enemies like the Sentients, cannot suffer Status, damage weakness matters quite alot against them.
  
  2) Does it stop the enemy from moving or firing at you ?
  
  Alot of damage types can lead to some kind of utility for you and your squad.
  Heat and Electricity both force the enemy to play an animation which prevent them for firing at you.
  Radiation can lead enemies to fight against one another.
  Cold can slow the enemy down to the point where they barely fight.
  
  Blast also brings utility by reducing the accuracy of your enemies, the problem with that one is that it doesn't reduce 100% of the accuracy, in a way all it does is making the enemies less lucky with their shots. So if you're the unlucky one, it won't change anything. But there are other mods that can affect the enemy accuracy and there's also an evasion stat for your Warframe. If you combine all this together, the results are rather good but the setup is a bit complex, compared to other status.
  
  3) Does it need to add a radial damage ?
  
  Gas could add radial damage, assuming you're looking for a way to fit radial damage in there.
  Gas is great as long as you're working with less than 10 stacks on each of your target, whenever you or someone in your squad applies a Gas stack while it already reached 10, they overwrite themselves.
  
  This makes Gas decent if the squad isn't messing with your build, even better if you fine-tuned your build to never go above 10 stacks. Low fire rate and low multishot weapons tend to have better result with Gas, since most of your damage will translate in a Gas DoT without overwriting previous Gas stacks.
  
  4) Does it need to add a Damage over Time effect ?
  
  Maybe your build requires you to build damage over time. Maybe you're trying to make use of the Helminth ability Expedite Suffering. Maybe you like to have DoT.
  Or maybe your build requires delayed damage to be there to be granted other bonuses. Maybe it's the only way to reach some special conditions for another weapon, pet or an ability.
  
  Heat, Toxic, Electricity and Gas all have a DoT effect. Some work differently than others but they're all DoT.
  Heat deals damage, stun the enemy and reduces the enemy armor.
  Toxic deals damage to health. Simple.
  Electricity deals damage, stun the enemy.
  And Gas deals damage in an area around the affected enemy.
  
  5) Does it help me or my squad to deal more damage ?
  
  If you're looking to boost your damage or your squad, maybe you'd rather look for other elements.
  Viral can increase the damage dealt to an enemy's Health.
  Magnetic can increase the damage dealt to an enemy's Shield
  Corrosive can reduce the armor of an enemy. Ultimately raising the damage against an armored enemy.
  
  Depending on what you're looking to get, bigger damage on screen for yourself or if you're trying to raise the damage of your squad, it could be interesting to use these but what if your squad already has them ? You could focus on other elements, it'd technically be better for you if your enemy's weakness is different than these elements.
  
  6) Does it fit the weapon I'll use with it ?
  
  Some weapons can be re-used as a utility tool. You could discard the damage part and boost the status duration and status chance so high that having a damage status effect would seem like a bad idea.
  The opposite is also true. If you want a crowd control status on your weapon, does putting it on your main damage weapon an idea that you'd really fancy ? Wouldn't you prefer to combine it with another weapon ?
  Some element like Gas have special rules that you can't really ignore if you want good results.
  --
  
  All these factors keep crossing until you get to a conclusion for your build which ultimately depend on your preference not just the most popular choice around. While Viral and Heat may be popular, I still get to use Corrosive here and then when the damage weakness calls for it.
  
  Grineer railjack armor at really high level is no joke (but we only see them in simulacrum for now), Viral and Heat are nice only if the status effects get in there. What if you decide to run a build that won't allow for status effect to help you ? What if you don't have an ability to reduce armor ? You'll really like knowing the enemy weakness at that point.

[(XBOX)Apoll0 666]

6 hours ago, Bigredteletubby said:

Some elementals are more useful/powerful than others, but, 1) that's always gonna be the case, and 2) you don't need a min-maxed build for the vast majority of content in this game. So, tbh, pretty much all the elemental types are useful in certain situations. I do hope gas damage gets a rework tho...

When would you ever use magnetic or blast? When was the last time you used either of those besides doing a challenge?

[Fallen77]

Corrosive useless ?

Yeah sure, you know what you're talking about. When has armor strip ever been a consideration in warframe right ?

[Thorham]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

When would you ever use magnetic or blast? When was the last time you used either of those besides doing a challenge?

The last time I used blast was when it still knocked down enemies. Worked quite well with Exalted Blade + Arca Plasmor. Now it's indeed useless.

[(XBOX)Apoll0 666]

2 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

Corrosive useless ?

Yeah sure, you know what you're talking about. When has armor strip ever been a consideration in warframe right ?

It's been widely agreed that corrosive isn't as effective as it used to be and using viral/fire is literally twice as good. Snarkiness backs up nothing.

[(XBOX)Apoll0 666]

3 hours ago, CurseOfFilth said:

When I wanted to rip off shields? Blast was fun until they removed the knockdown affect. Smh...

Why not just use toxin, most enemies that have shields have baby amounts of health that can be taken down much quicker than when you would use magnetic.. I explained how the way elements are implemented ruin the concept 

[Sovyul]

it's like claiming that nobody wipes their a** with their clothes, but of course there are always special ones among us who make it look like the exception proves the rule and make standardizing toilet paper sound like insanity

[(XBOX)Apoll0 666]

2 minutes ago, Sovyul said:

it's like claiming that nobody wipes their a** with their clothes, but of course there are always special ones among us who make it look like the exception proves the rule and make standardizing toilet paper sound like insanity

I don't really get your analogy here, wiping my a** with my clothes... toilet paper? What? haha, explain plz

[(XBOX)Apoll0 666]

I'm finding that pretty much everyone is saying things that I literally explained in the post, forums really goes nowhere sometimes, elemental damage is hopeless in a variety and viability point of view.

[Lutesque]

21 hours ago, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

Ah, yes the "element" damage of warframe, Viral, Fire, and Toxin. Oh yes my bad I forgot about the other few, so did DE apparently. I think each elemental should be viable in some way and/or situation and weaker in some.

I firmly Disagree....

I think the Entire Concept of Damage Types is completely Outdated in 2021.... This is an old relic of JRPG's in the 90-ies and it's for it to Stop....

21 hours ago, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

Just as fire should be used against nature types in some monster fighting game, the armor corroding element should be used against armored enemies.

I haven't actually played slots of Games that use this Paint By Numbers Damage Type Design Methodology but surely there has to be more to it than what it sounds like if it's going to engage players.

21 hours ago, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

Does anyone else think that new enemy types that make you actually consider how to mod your weapons and equipment should be in the game?

Honestly.... Nope.... 

I would gladly welcome new Enemy types... Just not for the Reason of Swapping Mod Configs...

We only have three Configs by default anyway so adding more is only going to make it seem like we are being punished for not buying Config Slots. 

If new enemies are going to be added... They should change the way we actually play...not the way we mod.... 

Yes Modding has its own problems but this is not a Solution I'm down with.

21 hours ago, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

I only ever see talk about the inital elements and changing them or their stats(which would only break them or switch their place as "OP" with another element), I myself think that adding more factors to elemental damage with new enemies is a good and simple-ish way of taking a step towards fixing the elemental inbalance

Where else I myself think that the entire Concept of Damage Types should just be removed all together... It's not worth Fixing....

21 hours ago, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

What are your thoughts on this and do you think that new enemy types will be a step forward to a balance for elements? If not explain why plz because I don't understand why this is never an option I see taken into consideration, I may be completely wrong and thinking in a crappy way, I wish to understand.

I can't explain for others.... Because I've never actually properly discussed Damaged Types as a whole with anyone else... But modding tends to feel like busy work... Specifically to those of us who are not Memophiles (I don't know if that word means what I think it means)... 

There's a rather large Demographic of Gamers who Specifically enjoy Optimising the Living #&_@ out of numbers... This is not a Concept I understood until I started playing through NG+ in Nioh.... Finding Synergies that Results in Large Numbers Is more popular than people are aware of.... But in Warframe it conflicts with those of us who dont Originally enjoy this specific aspect....

So yeah that's my personal reason for why not on Board with Enemies weak to the lesser used Elements....

Remember how everyone complained about the Treasures when Deadlock Protocol first launched ? Yeah... I was and still am one of those Cry Babies.

The other not so Personal Reason I'm against this Idea I have already explained earlier.... Damage Types as a Concept is Sorely outdated....

20 hours ago, Kainosh said:

For example, Viral proc should never be applied to enemies with resistance to Viral damage.  

But.... Only specific infested Units are Resistant to Viral.... 

In any case this Dual Health System means that Enemies and Tenno alike have to Sets of Strengths and Resistances so how would this even work in practice ?

Sapmatic doesn't Play Warframe anymore so who is going to explain this to me ? 😱

20 hours ago, STUVash said:

This game has RPG elements

RPG Elements really Bug me... 😐

20 hours ago, STUVash said:

Radiation can lead enemies to fight against one another.

My Personal Favourite 😉 !!!

20 hours ago, STUVash said:

Heat, Toxic, Electricity and Gas all have a DoT effect. Some work differently than others but they're all DoT.

This is another Example why Damage Types are Outdated... They are Redundant....

I can't tell you how much it annoys me when a Game tells me two supposedly different damage types have the exact same effect.

 

8 hours ago, CurseOfFilth said:

When I wanted to rip off shields? Blast was fun until they removed the knockdown affect. Smh...

And thus Killing the Zenistar.... 😞....

5 hours ago, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

Why not just use toxin, most enemies that have shields have baby amounts of health that can be taken down much quicker than when you would use magnetic.. I explained how the way elements are implemented ruin the concept 

That includes the Level 30 Coolant Raknoids in the Exploiter Orb Boss Fight.... 

I actually tried to mod Around the weaknesses listed in the Codex but since they have 4.... Yes thats right 4 Sets of Resistances it was just easier to use Toxin to Outright ignore two of them....

4 hours ago, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

forums really goes nowhere sometimes

Pretty much.... Especially in this Specific Board....

I tend to find more level headed Debate Partners in the Feedback Sections.... Mostly nice people. 

[(XBOX)Apoll0 666]

22 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

I firmly Disagree....

I think the Entire Concept of Damage Types is completely Outdated in 2021.... This is an old relic of JRPG's in the 90-ies and it's for it to Stop....

I haven't actually played slots of Games that use this Paint By Numbers Damage Type Design Methodology but surely there has to be more to it than what it sounds like if it's going to engage players.

Honestly.... Nope.... 

I would gladly welcome new Enemy types... Just not for the Reason of Swapping Mod Configs...

We only have three Configs by default anyway so adding more is only going to make it seem like we are being punished for not buying Config Slots. 

If new enemies are going to be added... They should change the way we actually play...not the way we mod.... 

Yes Modding has its own problems but this is not a Solution I'm down with.

Where else I myself think that the entire Concept of Damage Types should just be removed all together... It's not worth Fixing....

I can't explain for others.... Because I've never actually properly discussed Damaged Types as a whole with anyone else... But modding tends to feel like busy work... Specifically to those of us who are not Memophiles (I don't know if that word means what I think it means)... 

There's a rather large Demographic of Gamers who Specifically enjoy Optimising the Living #&_@ out of numbers... This is not a Concept I understood until I started playing through NG+ in Nioh.... Finding Synergies that Results in Large Numbers Is more popular than people are aware of.... But in Warframe it conflicts with those of us who dont Originally enjoy this specific aspect....

So yeah that's my personal reason for why not on Board with Enemies weak to the lesser used Elements....

Remember how everyone complained about the Treasures when Deadlock Protocol first launched ? Yeah... I was and still am one of those Cry Babies.

The other not so Personal Reason I'm against this Idea I have already explained earlier.... Damage Types as a Concept is Sorely outdated.... 

But.... Only specific infested Units are Resistant to Viral.... 

In any case this Dual Health System means that Enemies and Tenno alike have to Sets of Strengths and Resistances so how would this even work in practice ?

Sapmatic doesn't Play Warframe anymore so who is going to explain this to me ? 😱

RPG Elements really Bug me... 😐

My Personal Favourite 😉 !!!

This is another Example why Damage Types are Outdated... They are Redundant....

I can't tell you how much it annoys me when a Game tells me two supposedly different damage types have the exact same effect.

 

And thus Killing the Zenistar.... 😞....

That includes the Level 30 Coolant Raknoids in the Exploiter Orb Boss Fight.... 

I actually tried to mod Around the weaknesses listed in the Codex but since they have 4.... Yes thats right 4 Sets of Resistances it was just easier to use Toxin to Outright ignore two of them....

Pretty much.... Especially in this Specific Board....

I tend to find more level headed Debate Partners in the Feedback Sections.... Mostly nice people. 

Wowza, ngl I completely agree that the damages need to be sort of removed or very much lessened by number because of why you stated. But they wont ever be removed, I can say that with confidence, warframe players are nuts about the numbers, seeing high stats give certain players arousal(riven buyers ) .  I can understand you just wanting a straight damage type of modifying but to me and a lot of players it oversimplifies a game like this, because it has said rpg elements. They wont ever go away and like I said there should be enemies that go against the meta, or literally make sentients show up more, I see sentients like 1% of the time I'm playing(excluding the watcher drone thingies who scan you). I'd love more dynamic enemies but DE doesnt seem to want to add that(and some players would throw a hissy fit I already know). I'm simply saying as damage wont be changing as a whole we should either put all damages on par with each other or abandoned most of them, theres no point to use blast, gas, corrosive(ppl will say there is but no), or magnetic past level 50. Thats literally almost half of the element types totally useless in implementation. Like you said, why use magnetic when you can just us toxin, magnetic doesnt even have a good procc, its terrible, blast is a hilarious joke, they could've literally made blast procc innately have a much lower chance to procc and make ammunition explosive... anyways, thanks for your opinions and I agree a lot. The system is terrible and needs to be trimmed up and cut off the stragglers or straight up abandon it.

 

edit: I myself dont want the element damage types to go away because they add some immersion and plus they're super fun at times, I love use gas on my broken scepter(100% stat chance) because then its some ninja boy swinging his staff while smoke flies around, people love fire and I strictly used cold up until level 40 because I love freezing enemies

[STUVash]

il y a 24 minutes, Lutesque a dit :

This is another Example why Damage Types are Outdated... They are Redundant....

But I explained how they were not though and even on the damage part they do work differently.
Toxic inflict damage on Health specifically.
Electricity inflict damage on Shield first, then Health, while being the only damage type with a DoT that infested cannot be immuned to.
Heat inflict damage on Shield first then Health, while also refreshing all previous heat stacks on each proc, this technically mean that your Heat DoT can stack INFINITELY.

This can not only lead great damage on one target, but using Mecha set effect you could also spread it on alot of enemies.
And in some other cases this can lead to really interesting development when tied with some abilities :)

 

[(XBOX)Apoll0 666]

2 minutes ago, STUVash said:

But I explained how they were not though and even on the damage part they do work differently.
Toxic inflict damage on Health specifically.
Electricity inflict damage on Shield first, then Health, while being the only damage type with a DoT that infested cannot be immuned to.
Heat inflict damage on Shield first then Health, while also refreshing all previous heat stacks on each proc, this technically mean that your Heat DoT can stack INFINITELY.

This can not only lead great damage on one target, but using Mecha set effect you could also spread it on alot of enemies.
And in some other cases this can lead to really interesting development when tied with some abilities :)

 

Yes but the effectiveness of all of this and the fact that they work differently means most of them are barely sufficient after a certain point. Why should you ever attack shields when you can straight up act like they're not there. They're redundant. Oh, and DoT is good but imo it's not the dmg you'll actually be worrying about from the procc, it's the extra procc effects that anyone cares about and how they're implemented

[(XBOX)Apoll0 666]

Honesly if anything they should relook at resistances. Viral is so good against everything because it adds 365%+ damage no matter what(excluding shields), just make more enemies have resistances to viral and such. The inital procc and the lacking resistances across the board make up why certain elements are used more. Did you know cold is strong against practically 75% of the enemies? But yet it's not really ever used because it's procc isnt super good like something similar such as viral.

[(PSN)Unstar]

23 hours ago, Reaverhart said:

to put it simply DE doesnt understand that 3x damage is better then 1.75x damage.

There's no way you actually believe the words you're typing.  I'm tired of comments like these, they're just evidence of Dunning-Kruger.

On 2021-03-23 at 12:33 PM, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

I tested this with an Ignis wraith on different grineer enemy types in simulacrum(lvl 90) and each and ever time Viral beat corrosive in kill time by at least twice to even 4x as fast.

You can't just test with one weapon; your results will be skewed and not generalize.  I usually test with Corrupted Gunners and Corrupted Bombards, and with most weapons one dies faster to Viral and the other dies faster to Corrosive, and I have to make a strategic decision which element to use.  I would hazard that the Heat procs from your Ignis Wraith are "interfering" with your test, as they are lowering the armor, which is making Corrosive less effective due to the redundancy.  There also may be some issues due to damage types.  There's nothing wrong with also using Heat on a weapon, of course; often I do, as it's a good synergy.  But even with Heat on a weapon (which many of my tests include), I've found that some weapons still get faster kills on heavies with Corrosive than Viral.  The Ignis Wraith just isn't one of those weapons (if I recall, mine is modded for Viral).

On 2021-03-23 at 12:33 PM, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

Elements like viral are exceedingly fit for every single enemy except corpus, even then it's still viable by tenfold compared to the element that on paper should be used against them: magnetic.

Do you have tests to prove this?  This seems doubtful.

On 2021-03-23 at 12:33 PM, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

I myself think if anything we should add new enemy types, a variety of enemy types is literally one of the simplest fixes in games where elemental damage is a concept and it provides actual build variety.

This game already has a ton of variety of enemy types.  I'm not sure what your solution is and how it can't work with the existing several hundred enemies.  You might want to be more specific in what exactly you're asking for.

On 2021-03-23 at 12:33 PM, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

Ah, yes the "element" damage of warframe, Viral, Fire, and Toxin. Oh yes my bad I forgot about the other few, so did DE apparently. I think each elemental should be viable in some way and/or situation and weaker in some.

I certainly wouldn't say that the element systems is perfect, but I don't think it's as dire as you're making it out to be.  Yes, there are a few damage procs that stand out because of their general usefulness for killing: Viral, Fire, Slash, Corrosive, and Toxin.  But the other types still find their uses.  I can't count the times I've heard about something cool you can do against certain kinds of enemies or with a certain weapon that exploits a damage type that I don't use a lot. And honestly, if you can fit it on a weapon, I still think Radiation is a great support proc, and it's a pleasure whenever I have a weapon like the Kuva Nukor that has it.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

Viral is so good against everything because it adds 365%+ damage no matter what

Your Ignis test and this line seem to suggest that the way you're thinking about status is skewed towards weapons that apply many procs to enemies, as opposed to weapons that hit fewer times for larger damage each hit.  This may be a blind spot in the way you're considering status.  There are many useful weapons that might only get 1 or 2 procs per enemy before that enemy dies, and with those weapons different elements pull ahead.  For example, Radiation provides the most important aspect of its proc on the first hit, and any hits after that are just gravy. If you're not going to get many procs, that can change what elements you will choose for your weapon.

On 2021-03-23 at 12:33 PM, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

such as an overshield only

I do like this, that sounds fun

[STUVash]

Il y a 2 heures, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 a dit :

Yes but the effectiveness of all of this and the fact that they work differently means most of them are barely sufficient after a certain point. Why should you ever attack shields when you can straight up act like they're not there. They're redundant.

The reason you created this thread was to explain how you think....

 

Le 23/03/2021 à 20:33, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 a dit :

think each elemental should be viable in some way and/or situation and weaker in some. This is the case yes, but because of terrible ideas(that wont be changed) and implementations the elements wont ever work properly.

And on my previous post I explained how they do work as intended except Gas which has really weird rules.
Now if you specifically want to talk about Toxic VS Magnetic against shield enemies. We can do that too.
 

Révélation

Toxic damage does work on Health directly. This mean that when fighting a corpus with Flesh type resistance for their Health, you're doing a great job with a +50% Dmg.
On most weapons, the main damage won't be Toxic. So we can expect a split in the damage, one part attacking the Shield and the smaller toxic part attacking Health.

However, when fighting a Robot, the resistance type is Robotic, where Toxic not only lose the +50% it had on Flesh but it also gets a -25%. So now your toxic damage is HALF of the damage it had before. And if the robot has armor, this Toxic damage is further reduced depending on the level of the enemy.

So you're losing more than half of the toxic damage you were doing on a corpus flesh guy. And this toxic damage is not inflicting its damage on Shield. Which means it's not helping removing the shield either. In this worse case scenario where your enemy has both shield, and armor, it would be faster to just remove the shield and then attack the Health bar with the proper damage type.

The reason no one bother running Magnetic is because Armor damage reduction is far more detrimental to the player progression than shield is, and the reason why you can get away with using Toxic damage so much against Corpus is because their Health have no armor and their Shield stat overall is too small.
This doesn't make Magnetic any weaker, it just doesn't benefit you as long as it should.

The reason why no one really care about Shield is because of how it has been set on enemies. Shield on most Corpus enemies has a lower ratio than Health. Meaning it takes less effort to remove Shield than it would to remove Health, and when Shield is gone, Magnetic benefit is technically lost.
And on the enemies that do have a much higher Shield ratio, they also have a smaller Health stat. Typical example is Anti Moa 500 Shield for 50 Health. You don't need a high toxic damage to take it down, not because Toxic Damage is good but because Health is simply too low.

Not only that but once the shield is gone, Toxic would work great against Flesh.
Most robotic enemies ratio are more diverse but their stats are actually smaller . Meaning you don't need as much damage as you would against Flesh.
When you take all that into account, it ends up not being a big deal if you use Toxic instead of Magnetic.

The idea behind this balance is that Shield can regenerate. If the shield of an enemy were to regenerate, the total damage it could withstand  would be much higher than its health. In a game where you'd have to hide to recover your ammunitions, health and shield. This balance would work, the enemy shield would recover if something goes wrong forcing you to hide. During combat Shield Osprey can also regenerate the enemy shield. Unfortunately Shield Osprey didn't evolve enough to be a proper threat.

So it's not exactly a fair ground for Magnetic. Corrosive on Armor will benefit from the damage weakness even if the armor is 5. Much easier to use and more consistent in their own field of expertise.

Even then, one could ask, would running Toxic damage be better than Magnetic no matter the enemies we face among Corpus ?
The answer is No. Some robotic enemies, not even the strongest ones have more balance Shield/Health ratio and rather high stats. The stats are high enough to slow down the Toxic damage progression over Health, and Shield is big enough to give room for Magnetic to benefit the player, and it's Robotic damage resistance, meaning Toxic has reduced damage on Health.

Overall. Flesh Corpus die 65% faster with Toxic rather than with Magnetic when facing one of the most balanced Shield/Health ratio for Flesh Corpus (800/1000)  Axio Ranger Crewman
and Robotic Corpus die 66% faster with Magnetic rather than with Toxic when facing one of the most balanced Shield/Health ratio for Robotic Corpus (600/600) Terra Embattor Moa

Of course this is ignoring some enemies that could have both Shield and Armor. In this case Toxic would obviously be bad, but most Corpus lack armor so let's go with that...
The solution is rather simple, just give us more Robotic enemies. In corpus ship tileset, I think we have more moas but maybe even more than that give us proper Shield/Health ratio and some robotic enemies able to rival their Flesh counterpart in stats. Either that or upgrade the shield regeneration tactic they got going with Shield Osprey. It's really easy to just remove their biggest strength by destroying the Shield Osprey, if it wasn't so easily destroyed, Corpus would be lot stronger I reckon.

Grineers technically have a similar issue with their Machinery enemies, it's not that the damage resistance is weak it's that their stats are too low anyway, the only real threat end up being Alloy and Flesh from them.

You'd be right to say Status like Gas or Blast are pretty weird, but even for them you can't exactly say they're useless.

[Gahrzerkire]

48 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

There's no way you actually believe the words you're typing.  I'm tired of comments like these, they're just evidence of Dunning-Kruger.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Damage

Corrosive gets +75% damage to ferrite armour, technically speaking if we are taking into account this being done on the same status weapon (i.e. both weapons are fully wound up from a status perspective) we can add about +1.5x damage multiplicatively due to armour shred (which is extremely generous) and would bring the damage up to about 112.5% or 2.125x damage. 

90% of enemies with Ferrite Armour are going to have health pools obviously meaning that Viral is going to increase damage taken by 100% for the first proc, increasing by 25% for each subsequent proc up to 325%, which is a 3.25x damage multiplier. Now technically I was wrong, the difference is a little bit less, however it still greatly favours viral for attacking non-shielded armoured targets over corrosive. 

OH WAIT HA THATS FUNNY THE ONLY THING VIRAL IS BAD AGAISNT IS THE INFESTED T_T XD But even still fully wound up with statuses it rocks a 2.625x damage multiplier. So its still better then corrosive. Just by an even lower multiplier. Also agaisnt all other factions corrosives sports a hefty #*!%ing penalty. Unless its armour. But all that is left is corpus... and they are shielded and base health... so no competition there. 

Also we dont talk about sentients because caring about what element you have agaisnt them doesnt matter as long as Xata's Whisper can get you 60% bonus void damage. Wait lol I run that on all my builds now becuase changing mods is for suckins, and viral triples that bonus damage so I dont care, cause bare minimum im getting 2.95x my regular damage as free extra damage with xatas whisper and viral completely ignoring all elemental resistances. (this can also be further increased using stuff like smite infusion which is an increase, which comes earlier in the calculation then the bonus damage, and assuming a decent build getting 60% xata's whisper that is usually about 200% power STR which means that Im getting 200% extra radiation damage, which is then partially converted into void damage) so actual void damage agaisnt all content in the game with a viral xatas whisper build is about 5.9x base weapon void damage as bonus extra at all times (this also ignores any other potential buffs). (mind you xatas bonus is also applied as multi shot so it doesn't effect getting viral procs).

Long story short, viral is better then corrosive. Corrosive could compete on high firerate weapons when it could fully strip armour, as the game rounded armour to 0 once it was below like 30 or something like that. Which could consistently happen in about 30 corrosive procs (the reason that number is so #*!%ing huge is becuase this was back when enemies had exponential armour scaling). also it used to be that once an enemy had 0 armour it was just no longer effected by corrosive procs. 

$20 of platinum to you tho if a dev comes in here and says that the reason they nerfed corrosive into S#&$ had nothing to do with them making saryn literally armour strip their entire game to meaninglessness. 


Also dunning-kruger has nothing to do with that statement. They talked about nerfing slash right and left all the time as well as nerfing viral to "keep it in line with other status effects" then they literally made it even #*!%ing better, and made the only other kind of competing status effect worse. What other conclusion can be drawn then they don't know what they are doing/don't understand how damage modifiers work?

(also clearly they do understand the math, they just must not check it, intend to make strange counter intuitive changes relative to what they say, or just plain old not give a S#&$, sure their are other options, but at this point im sick of giving them bloody excuses)

You also have no clue what my profession or area of expertise is so implying that i am greatly simplifying the task as a result of me having no understand of how games are made is ludicrous at best on your part. 

Also hilarious to me that you accuse me of being affected by dunning kruger when  you say this S#&$ not a few lines down:

48 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Do you have tests to prove this?  This seems doubtful.

You shouldn't need to ask for tests to prove it if you have knowledge of how damage functions in warframe, and yet here you are doubting what he said anyways. Assuming that your own suppositions about the game are better then his, when he clearly has at least read the wiki page at some point or watched a youtube video. 

[(PSN)Unstar]

16 minutes ago, Reaverhart said:

SNIP

Hey friend, I think you significantly misunderstood me.  Here's what you wrote that I facepalmed at:

Quote

to put it simply DE doesnt understand that 3x damage is better then 1.75x damage.

I'm not interested in whatever logic or math got you to this conclusion.  I'm just not buying that you actually think DE doesn't know that 3x damage is better than 1.75x damage.  If you genuinely have that little faith in the fundamental arithmetic skills of the folks who developed this entire game, I am at a loss as to how to rationalize that.  Maybe it's not Dunning-Kruger, maybe it's Maybeline?

And to be clear, I'm not trying to drag you.  It's just those exact words in the quote that have my ire.  I'm sorry that it felt personal to you, it was not intended to be.

[Gahrzerkire]

Part of the problem with viral is that it ignores the amount of damage a target is actually taking from it, and just boosts all other damage being dealt. Which is ludicrious, all status procs should be based off of the amount of damage being dealt to the target on the hit, and their effects played out as such.

In other words the amount of damage dealt to a target by a hit determines the amount of effectiveness from that proc. That way you actually have to care about the thing you are hitting and what you are hitting it with. 

I.e. if I hit for 20% of a targets health (say 10% is maximum threshold) I will then get 100% of the effectiveness of viral, if I proc viral on that hit. 

say I hit for 5% of the targets health (10% is still the max threshold) I will then get 50% of the effectiveness of viral, if I proc viral on that hit. 

^^ in this situation agaisnt an armoured target you will not be hitting that hard with viral as the armour will mitigate the viral damage significanlty meaning the proc will be at like 2% effectiveness if not lower, though that changes depending on what the maximum threshold is set to.

What this would do is make it so that hitting with the correctly disposed element and getting a proc of some type will deal a large value of damage and therefore apply a stronger debuff, then hitting with the incorrectly disposed element getting a weak hit. Tying the procs effectiveness to the damage dealt directly correlates the relationship between the elemental chart, and the status effect strength. Without that connection its about what status proc is good, not about what element is good, as status procs are multiplicative of damage AFTER elemental effects meaning they are < in terms of mathematical importance / magnitude. 

This is also not my idea, this is used in Path of Exile to balance the strength of status effects on enemies:
https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/Chill
https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/Shock