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Imagine making a whole pirate-y themed quest and putting a pirate hat alt helm for the new frame and yet still not giving Hydroid a rework.


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I can't be the only one who thinks this is hilariously bad.  We literally have the pirate frame with the pirate themed deluxe they just put out not too long ago and now their putting out a pirate themed quest on our space pirate ships with a whole new frame with yet more pirate themed stuff and still ignoring Hydroid.

They just reworked Zephyr because certain mechanics that she shares with Hydroid are bad and they admitted are they're bad.  Yet still not even a tweak to his kit mentioned anywhere.  Not even a "we're looking into it."  or a "Pablo's been eyeballing hydroid lately."  

Nothing for our water boy.  One of the coolest themes in the game and his kit is still so bad.

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This is kind of what league does too.

If champions arent popular at all, they get fully reworked and made into new characters with new kits that occupy the same design space. Like with Zephyr, they were able to make a new frame for the “airborne theme.”

But you see the problem with hydroid, is that because he actually has a use, his use statistics will be dramatically higher than Zephyr. So why would DE make changes to a frame and risk upsetting their mains?

I used to main a support champion called Sona, she has one of the most boring kits in the entire game, but I’m really good at positioning on her.

They recently released a champion called Seraphine, with the exact same theme, but all of her abilities are just upgraded abilities of Sona’s, literally 1 for 1, times 2.

Getting made obsolete doesn’t feel any better than having something you main changed.

I just wish game companies were able to learn from each other instead of making each other’s mistakes.

Edited by _R_o_g_u_e_
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Have they given any indication that they are dissatisfied with his current state?  Every now and then, it seems like a dev will make a tweet or comment to indicate that at least something is on their radar.  With Hydroid, though, I can't think of anything.  He got that juicy deluxe and the giveaway at Tennocon, and then...  

 

I mean, he and Zephyr were the ones I saw the most rework posts about.  So maybe because Zephyr got some healthy changes, Hydroid might be next?

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26 minutes ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

But you see the problem with hydroid, is that because he actually has a use, his use statistics will be dramatically higher than Zephyr. So why would DE make changes to a frame and risk upsetting their mains?

The main problem is that he's technically a farm frame.  DE despises efficiency so he will most likely never get a rework because of the pilfering mod.  Can't make him stronger because resource farms might speed up.  Guarantee that's the main, REAL reason, despite anything they might ever eventually say about it.

As far as upsetting mains in concerned, credit where credit is due they normally do a really good job on reworking frames.  Hydroid and Frost are probably the only frames in the whole game I think are genuinely bad, and there's only maybe 3ish more I don't like.  (I'm not a fan of Octavia, Valkyr or Gara, despite knowing they're solid frames.  Just not my style.  You could maybe throw Inaros in here but I use him on a rare occasion because he's good at what he does despite being mind numbingly boring.)  The only rework I'm upset about is the last Saryn rework, and despite 100% knowing that she took a nerf for those that knew how to use her abilities, and knowing I preferred the old playstyle, she still came out really good after the rework.  I can't think of a bad rework off the top of my head, despite still strongly disagreeing with Saryn's.

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13 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

The main problem is that he's technically a farm frame.  DE despises efficiency so he will most likely never get a rework because of the pilfering mod.  Can't make him stronger because resource farms might speed up.  Guarantee that's the main, REAL reason, despite anything they might ever eventually say about it.

As far as upsetting mains in concerned, credit where credit is due they normally do a really good job on reworking frames.  Hydroid and Frost are probably the only frames in the whole game I think are genuinely bad, and there's only maybe 3ish more I don't like.  (I'm not a fan of Octavia, Valkyr or Gara, despite knowing they're solid frames.  Just not my style.  You could maybe throw Inaros in here but I use him on a rare occasion because he's good at what he does despite being mind numbingly boring.)  The only rework I'm upset about is the last Saryn rework, and despite 100% knowing that she took a nerf for those that knew how to use her abilities, and knowing I preferred the old playstyle, she still came out really good after the rework.  I can't think of a bad rework off the top of my head, despite still strongly disagreeing with Saryn's.

Inaros is a good example of what I was talking about. What incentive does DE have to change a frame Thats that popular? Specially when doing it poorly could anger so many people. It would be easy to look at his play rate and think “yeah, he’s fine.”

(It would be even easier to do that if you never actually played the game 🤭)

Edited by _R_o_g_u_e_
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1 hour ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

The main problem is that he's technically a farm frame.  DE despises efficiency so he will most likely never get a rework because of the pilfering mod.  Can't make him stronger because resource farms might speed up.  Guarantee that's the main, REAL reason, despite anything they might ever eventually say about it.

As far as upsetting mains in concerned, credit where credit is due they normally do a really good job on reworking frames.  Hydroid and Frost are probably the only frames in the whole game I think are genuinely bad, and there's only maybe 3ish more I don't like.  (I'm not a fan of Octavia, Valkyr or Gara, despite knowing they're solid frames.  Just not my style.  You could maybe throw Inaros in here but I use him on a rare occasion because he's good at what he does despite being mind numbingly boring.)  The only rework I'm upset about is the last Saryn rework, and despite 100% knowing that she took a nerf for those that knew how to use her abilities, and knowing I preferred the old playstyle, she still came out really good after the rework.  I can't think of a bad rework off the top of my head, despite still strongly disagreeing with Saryn's.

Lastest reworks where fantastic, and while yeah, saryn its not the same as before, she its waaaaaay healthier and dynamic that the old mote spore spammer haha.

I hope for hydroid to get at least some number tweaks or something, not expecting ember quality's of a rework, but his 1 and 2 seriously needs something, both abilities are damn useless in current game. The 3 its a dash, I can live with that, and the 4 its an area CC, not the best but its something, but his 1? No damage and corrosive procs on an unreliable area with an augment? With the charge times it have? Really DE?

As for frost, Im hopping to see something ember like, IDK, having his 2 replaced with a cold generation thing, the colder he gets, the more armor he have and the stronger the armor strip from his 4.

Casting the 4 releases cold, same for the 3rd ability, staying inside bubble increases cold meter and the 1 its keept as it is, a slow that can blow bubbles.

Its keept on the cold theme, focused arround defense, have a defensive ability to protect himself from enemies when he has to move and an armor strip, all a frame needs for today standards :P

Oh, and all its abilities work in tandem with each other and have build diversity too, since a big range frost will be a winter tank armor stripper while the usual build will be a objective protector.

Edited by KittySkin
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2 minutes ago, KittySkin said:

she its waaaaaay healthier and dynamic that the old mote spore spammer

It's funny, every time I say Saryn got nerfed and her old playstyle was better everyone automatically assumes I was a lazy Saryn with the stupid molt spore spam.  Not at all.

Her spores had an unlisted mechanic that transfered toxin damage dealt by weapons to any other enemy within range that also had spores, and the spread range on a killed enemy with spores was huge.  You could pop toxic lash, infect one enemy, melee it which would spread spore to everything on the map, and then subsequent melee attacks on anything infected would wipe huge mobs.  It was extremely active and scaled far higher than her stupid old molt spore spam build.  It didn't have ramp up time like the new Saryn does, didn't decrease and require rebuilding damage like new Saryn does, and scaled extremely well.  It also didn't cancel out other Saryn's or get mitigated by nuke frames.  Anyone with toxin damage on their weapons could spread damage via the spores.  It was not only more active, it was more squad friendly.

If they had removed that boring spore/molt interaction, left spores the way they were other than changing them to corrosive but keeping the damage proliferation mechanic, changed her other 3 abilities just like they already did, she would be more effective in non-static content because of the lack of required build up time and would still be extremely effective.  Because of the changes to melee and status she would probably be the best scaling frame in the game at that point.

The funniest part is everyone goes to that molt build to join in with the devs saying "The afk playstyle needed to go" and it did...  But they replaced it with another fairly hands-off playstyle with how spores and miasma work now.  She's still pretty AFK.  She would require more player input and be more engaging had they not changed how spores work.  Half the reason they said they did it was because the mechanics were too obscure.  MAYBE IF YOU PUT INFORMATION IN THE GAME INSTEAD OF THE WIKI PEOPLE WOULD KNOW HOW THINGS WORK, DE.

The fact that you assumed molt build though is why I said: 

 

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

for those that knew how to use her abilities

It was only listed on the wiki page.  She was far from AFK if you knew what you were doing.  My focus gains in ESO were twice as high with her before the rework.  She has too much ramp up required now to kill as fast as she used to.

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1 minute ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

It's funny, every time I say Saryn got nerfed and her old playstyle was better everyone automatically assumes I was a lazy Saryn with the stupid molt spore spam.  Not at all.

Her spores had an unlisted mechanic that transfered toxin damage dealt by weapons to any other enemy within range that also had spores, and the spread range on a killed enemy with spores was huge.  You could pop toxic lash, infect one enemy, melee it which would spread spore to everything on the map, and then subsequent melee attacks on anything infected would wipe huge mobs.  It was extremely active and scaled far higher than her stupid old molt spore spam build.  It didn't have ramp up time like the new Saryn does, didn't decrease and require rebuilding damage like new Saryn does, and scaled extremely well.  It also didn't cancel out other Saryn's or get mitigated by nuke frames.  Anyone with toxin damage on their weapons could spread damage via the spores.  It was not only more active, it was more squad friendly.

If they had removed that boring spore/molt interaction, left spores the way they were other than changing them to corrosive but keeping the damage proliferation mechanic, changed her other 3 abilities just like they already did, she would be more effective in non-static content because of the lack of required build up time and would still be extremely effective.  Because of the changes to melee and status she would probably be the best scaling frame in the game at that point.

The funniest part is everyone goes to that molt build to join in with the devs saying "The afk playstyle needed to go" and it did...  But they replaced it with another fairly hands-off playstyle with how spores and miasma work now.  She's still pretty AFK.  She would require more player input and be more engaging had they not changed how spores work.  Half the reason they said they did it was because the mechanics were too obscure.  MAYBE IF YOU PUT INFORMATION IN THE GAME INSTEAD OF THE WIKI PEOPLE WOULD KNOW HOW THINGS WORK, DE.

The fact that you assumed molt build though is why I said: 

 

It was only listed on the wiki page.  She was far from AFK if you knew what you were doing.  My focus gains in ESO were twice as high with her before the rework.  She has too much ramp up required now to kill as fast as she used to.

I played her using the toxin mechanic, but that dont change the fact that her old playstyle was WAY more static that top performer saryns.

Also, the ramp up time and the ramp down in damage its something that I personally consider a VERY good design desicion. You need to learn how to manage youe damage acording to enemy faction and level and recast her 1 to reduce damage to avoid overkilling, its way more deep that her old version where the interaction layer was a flat damage spread.

I personally feel her more interesting now, even if her maximum performance its lower than before (and lets be honest, her maximum performance its beyond stupidity RN, not like you really need it).

And yes. They seriously need to add indepth information in game. If not on the main ability tab, add it on the codex entry and avoid overbloated ability tabs, but they need to add god damn interactions that are intended by design IN THE DAMN GAME.

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1 minute ago, KittySkin said:

I played her using the toxin mechanic, but that dont change the fact that her old playstyle was WAY more static that top performer saryns.

Also, the ramp up time and the ramp down in damage its something that I personally consider a VERY good design desicion. You need to learn how to manage youe damage acording to enemy faction and level and recast her 1 to reduce damage to avoid overkilling, its way more deep that her old version where the interaction layer was a flat damage spread.

I personally feel her more interesting now, even if her maximum performance its lower than before (and lets be honest, her maximum performance its beyond stupidity RN, not like you really need it).

And yes. They seriously need to add indepth information in game. If not on the main ability tab, add it on the codex entry and avoid overbloated ability tabs, but they need to add god damn interactions that are intended by design IN THE DAMN GAME.

A frame bouncing around the map like berserker meleeing everything wiping packs isn't anywhere near as static as "Cast spore > spread spore > cast miasma > map dead > repeat"  She's far more static now.

And the damage mechanic is only deep on paper.  In gameplay there's no point in lowering damage on purpose to keep spore going when you can just...  recast it when it gets low, keep the damage high and keep wiping everything.  The only advantage you would have is slowing kill speed for in between enemy spawns, which doesn't work in most missions because additional spawn is based on enemies dying.  Or it's something like ESO where you need the kill speed maintained for the efficiency rate.  Or defense where you have ramp down every single wave.  It sounds deep until you get it in mission.  She works much better in ESO by just ramping up and maintaining kill speed as fast as possible.  And the toxin build was faster than that by a long shot.  My ESO focus gains didn't get cut in half with her because of anything but that rework.

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8 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

A frame bouncing around the map like berserker meleeing everything wiping packs isn't anywhere near as static as "Cast spore > spread spore > cast miasma > map dead > repeat"  She's far more static now.

And the damage mechanic is only deep on paper.  In gameplay there's no point in lowering damage on purpose to keep spore going when you can just...  recast it when it gets low, keep the damage high and keep wiping everything.  The only advantage you would have is slowing kill speed for in between enemy spawns, which doesn't work in most missions because additional spawn is based on enemies dying.  Or it's something like ESO where you need the kill speed maintained for the efficiency rate.  Or defense where you have ramp down every single wave.  It sounds deep until you get it in mission.  She works much better in ESO by just ramping up and maintaining kill speed as fast as possible.  And the toxin build was faster than that by a long shot.  My ESO focus gains didn't get cut in half with her because of anything but that rework.

I use her a lot in steel path, there I want to keeo things at a certain point during survivals to prevent enemies from dying too far away from me, and I agree, in most situations current saryn its a turret, but old one was able to be a turret too, so if not speaking about peak performance, both where turrets unless doing super endgame content or wanting to maximize performance.

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2 minutes ago, KittySkin said:

I use her a lot in steel path, there I want to keeo things at a certain point during survivals to prevent enemies from dying too far away from me, and I agree, in most situations current saryn its a turret, but old one was able to be a turret too, so if not speaking about peak performance, both where turrets unless doing super endgame content or wanting to maximize performance.

I'm saying her toxin proliferation build wasn't a turret.  It was like a berserker build.  It was twice as fun to me as she is now.  I really wish they'd bring that mechanic back, even if on a new frame.

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11 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

This is kind of what league does too.

If champions arent popular at all, they get fully reworked and made into new characters with new kits that occupy the same design space. Like with Zephyr, they were able to make a new frame for the “airborne theme.”

But you see the problem with hydroid, is that because he actually has a use, his use statistics will be dramatically higher than Zephyr. So why would DE make changes to a frame and risk upsetting their mains?

I used to main a support champion called Sona, she has one of the most boring kits in the entire game, but I’m really good at positioning on her.

They recently released a champion called Seraphine, with the exact same theme, but all of her abilities are just upgraded abilities of Sona’s, literally 1 for 1, times 2.

Getting made obsolete doesn’t feel any better than having something you main changed.

I just wish game companies were able to learn from each other instead of making each other’s mistakes.

They reworked Vauban despite him having fans. They reworked Saryn despite her having fans.

Sometimes you just have to ignore the minority of players that like the frame and think about how much a rework would benefit the frame.

Also Hydroid really doesn’t have a use. Khora replaces him. Has since they changed how Loot stacking works.

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On 2021-03-27 at 12:28 AM, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

Inaros is a good example of what I was talking about. What incentive does DE have to change a frame Thats that popular? Specially when doing it poorly could anger so many people. It would be easy to look at his play rate and think “yeah, he’s fine.”

(It would be even easier to do that if you never actually played the game 🤭)

That is a super fair point, but if they were to actually pay attention to their community, see the popular rework requests and then look into why the requests are being made by actually being in the game looking at what the frame can do they would see the issues.

No single person with a brain has ever actually used Mesa in any mission past like Neo fissure level and though "Man, Ballistic Battery is a great ability."  Yet people at DE that play the game like it's a duck and cover shooter in low level content think it's great and have no idea why it's the most replaced ability with Helminth.  They would understand these requests if they spent 5 minutes with a forma'd out, modded up frame in the simulacrum they hate so much against even Axi fissure level enemies.

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On 2021-03-27 at 1:28 AM, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

Inaros is a good example of what I was talking about. What incentive does DE have to change a frame Thats that popular? Specially when doing it poorly could anger so many people. It would be easy to look at his play rate and think “yeah, he’s fine.”

(It would be even easier to do that if you never actually played the game 🤭)

Inaros mains only care about HP so they won't even notice a change if it happens.

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4 hours ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Inaros mains only care about HP so they won't even notice a change if it happens.

I’m not making any arguments as to why he gets used. Only that he already does, so DE have no incentive to prioritise his rework.

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Imho,

There are reworks because a frame seen too much use. And there are reworks because a frame seen not enough use.

Saryn probably falls into the first category. So yeah there will be people who argue that she is less awesome now, they're practically nerfs. But since the rework is generally a good one, at the very least we didn't get angry mobs.

Zephyr on the other hand, probably falls into the second category cmiiw. I've only seen exactly one person using hydroid on my entire warframe career, so if he ever get a rework, i imagine he'll also belong to the second category. The rework should feel better cuz they'll generally be buffs.

It's a little unfair comparing the two kinds of reworks. But that's just my two cents.

Edited by Soy77
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Hydroid's problem is that his kit just feels like rummage sale leftovers.

His 1 is too random to be useful, his 2 is a comically worse Slash Dash, his 3 is literally just "Form of: A Bucket of Water" sans bucket, and his 4 is somehow MORE erratic and buggy CC than a poorly placed Khora Strangledome.

He just doesn't have an identity, the kit is more concerned with looking like a Pirate/Kraken than actually being effective and that's his core issue.

Edited by Aldain
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I use hydroid to farm, not because he's better or even comparable to khora, but just because I love the water theme and I think he looks badazz. That being said, he is in serious need of a rework. His 1 is horrible. Barely any cc at all, no damage, and the corrosive augment is laughably useless; not to mention the holding cast time(who on this earth would you ever use the non-fully charged version?). His 2 is a dash move and, as a rule of thumb, these can find use sometimes. It's still very lackluster though. His 3 is okay. It helps that you can use abilities from the puddle and that you can't take damage there. The pull in mechanic is weak though and the augment is garbage in my opinion. I use his 3 to concentrate all the tentacles from his 4 at choke points and that's absolutely it. His 4 is really the only thing I use for him, and it's not very good still. The hold charge thing is just terrible and should be done away with. The tentacles are very low strength. I run a max strength build with some duration and roar helminthed in, and it still has trouble with lvl 35-40. The only way to make it work is to use aoe weapons. On top of that, if you aren't using the puddle to concentrate the tentacles on one spot, you have to be very careful what range you use. Anything above the base 100 range makes the tentacles terrible. They become too spread out and there aren't enough of them at that point to reliably cc mobs. You end up getting maybe 10 enemies max caught in the tentacles(if you're lucky), and the rest run right through them. I rarely use his 4 without using his 3 first. When I do, it only works well if you have range at like 50-70. In bigger, open maps, his tentacles are useless altogether. I only run hydroid on infested missions, or on some grineer maps/kuvival. The only reason I use him on those maps though are because there are stair areas where you can use his tentacles underneath and enemies can't get to you. Those are boring though and I only do that for resource farming, or when there are nightwave challenges for 30 minute kuvival. On top of all this, he is squishy. To fit all my strength/duration mods on, I don't use any health/armor/shield/adaptatiin/rolling guard mods, and so he can't be used in any capacity on high level content.

Edited by (PSN)Sswoop-
Needed to add his squishyness
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2小时前 , (PSN)Sswoop- 说:

not to mention the holding cast time(who on this earth would you ever use the non-fully charged version?).

Idk if you know, but there's an option in setting that can reverse the press-hold for different mode of casting, tho I know some press-hold abilities don't have this option while some does, don't know the case for hydroid, just fyi

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I mean, they've been reworking frames steadily, gotta expect Hydroid is on their radar given his abysmal usage stats. I like his third ability, especially since they added the tentacle grasp. The others I would live to see reworked though.

Edited by Skaleek
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33 minutes ago, yoman15 said:

Idk if you know, but there's an option in setting that can reverse the press-hold for different mode of casting, tho I know some press-hold abilities don't have this option while some does, don't know the case for hydroid, just fyi

It dont, hydroid its "charging" his ability, much like ember's 1. The fact that his charged ability its S#&$ at best means that the uncharged variant its useless, but that seems to have never been fixed, they could just remove the charge, make charged base and that alone would be an improvment

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  • 2 months later...
On 2021-03-26 at 11:31 PM, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I can't be the only one who thinks this is hilariously bad.  We literally have the pirate frame with the pirate themed deluxe they just put out not too long ago and now their putting out a pirate themed quest on our space pirate ships with a whole new frame with yet more pirate themed stuff and still ignoring Hydroid.

They just reworked Zephyr because certain mechanics that she shares with Hydroid are bad and they admitted are they're bad.  Yet still not even a tweak to his kit mentioned anywhere.  Not even a "we're looking into it."  or a "Pablo's been eyeballing hydroid lately."  

Nothing for our water boy.  One of the coolest themes in the game and his kit is still so bad.

And now a new water frame is being released with better looking abilities and more versatility. Hydroid mains everywhere are going to cry themselves a puddle. They couldnt bother to fix our pirate water bender so they just gave us a pirate and a waterbender as whole new frames.

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On 2021-03-26 at 9:15 PM, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

You could maybe throw Inaros in here but I use him on a rare occasion because he's good at what he does despite being mind numbingly boring.) 

This is exactly what I was trying to tell the WF Discord.

Inaros is bad. But he has one specific use case:

Not giving an iota of a #*!% what you throw at him.

You build him right, and he is immortal.

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30 minutes ago, NuclearCoffeePot said:

And now a new water frame is being released with better looking abilities and more versatility. Hydroid mains everywhere are going to cry themselves a puddle. They couldnt bother to fix our pirate water bender so they just gave us a pirate and a waterbender as whole new frames.

Is your favorite Warframe Nekros? 

Just wondering... 

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