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Railjack heading in the right/wrong direction?


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I think it'd be cool if Railjack was just an open world inspace that connects to the planets where you can land to do the exisiting missions there and then add a few more points where you can also do skirmishes or a ship you can board to do missions.

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26 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

But if we get something new we will be FORCED, SUPLEXED BY SCOTT HIMSELF TO PLAY IT!

He came to my home when he was fatter and piledrived me! Imagine what he can do now that he is thinner!

did you try running away from him? don't think he can do any marathons 

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Honestly , at the current moment I have lost interest no matter which way it goes.

Neither feels particularly entertaining for me.

Grineer missions are practically all the same , and corpus missions are all also  the same , but they end with a regular mission.

But between the two I would rather play the grineer ones.

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For me it is going in the wrong direction. The focus we want in railjack is to battle using our ship ....

I think there is space for all tastes. On each map there should be at least one mission of each type to please everyone, but most are inclined to battle using railjack.

And the changes that DE made to the railjack interface, and the mods were pretty bad in my view. Some mods are irrelevant or add nothing. There is a lot that is wrong with this 3.0 railjack.

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2 hours ago, HelmetTooTight said:

there aren't plans to expand Railjack to make it more co-op intensive (i.e. Grineer style Railjack missions) but rather plan on expanding the embedding of core Warframe into Railjack (i.e. Corpus style Railjack missions) by adding stuff like Spy, etc.

The direction is so wrong, we're going backwards.

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Wrong direction for sure, don't mind new mission types, in fact we need more, however stuff like the defense and exterminate missions are a step in the wrong direction. In essence it's the exact same thing as the regular WF mission just with extra steps where the railjack is nothing more than a taxi with little use.

What we need are mission types that make use of both railjack and ground segments but in a proper ratio where railjack doesn't feel useless or one locks out the other. The grineer RJ missions got it right. What we need is more missions like that.

For example: Escort mission - has basic objective of defeating enemy fighters and crewships as all missions should. Ground team has to board a ship to protect and escort defectors/civilians(similar to defection WF mision) to escape ships, Railjack team has to escort escape ships and protect from fighters and crewships until they reach safe distance. It should be a repeatable process however unsure if it should be endless or not. That way we have a mission which gives something to do for both ground and railjack teams.

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10 minutes ago, ReddyDisco said:

did you try running away from him? don't think he can do any marathons 

He got me in my own home. With my pants down, while I was on The Seat of Force exercising Force Release after a day of red peppers. Running wasn't possible, fighting would result in a loss, Secret Martial Art Technique "The Begging Tiger" would be met with no mercy...

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I really think from the bottom of my heart that everything about this update is pepega tier:

- timer missions everywhere, everything in the freaking new rj missions has timers in it at some points

- the initial take that made players beeing able to do progress missions as 4 while doing different things is completly gone

- orphix venom in the core game with omegalul arcanes every 12 kills, AND it will be boted nonetheless

DE tries so hard monetizing things(wich is normal as it is a F2P) that they design content through the monetization scheme. Warframe was not like that... Since 2020 I have seen 0 content that I feel good running, and I don't even think that I'm a tough costumer, I kind of loved initial RJ lal.

Please DE, get your S#&$ together and stop releasing gutted content, just collect yourself and throw us something decent, my credit card will be there.

Edited by Galuf
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2 minutes ago, Galuf said:

I really think from the bottom of my heart that everything about this update is pepega tier:

- timer missions everywhere, everything in the freaking new rj missions has timers in it at some points

- the initial take that made players beeing able to do progress missions as 4 while doing different things is completly gone

- orphix venom in the core game with omegalul arcanes every 12 kills, AND it will be boted nonetheless

DE tries so hard monetizing things(wich is normal as it is a F2P) that they design content through the monetization scheme. Early days of WF. Since 2020 I have seen 0 content that I feel good running, and I don't even think that I'm a tough costumer, I kind of loved initial RJ lal.

We can excuse 2020 as the nightmare we all lived, but I agree that the original RJ missions were as fun as any other aspect of this game.  RJ definitely needed a few tweaks, but not an entirely different system where those who first started playing RJ are now confronted with starting at square one.  All aspects of WF come with a grind, but what bothers me is the first people to do something end up with the hard part and later others can cheese it.  For example, those who built and leveled their nec's can now buy them.  When the fissures on the OV came open, there was no explanation and people had to figure out what to do.  Later, they made it more clear and easier for people to complete this.  I can cite many other similar examples.  RJ won't change as the developers liked what they did, but I would rather see them spend time on the operator schools, or develop quests that are fun to play instead of a space game.

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I think the Corpus missions are fun and I like adding Orphix as an alternative arcane farm but it really doesn't feel like "Railjack" since the bulk of the mission is...not on your railjack. In that regard I think it's going in the wrong direction.  Railjack was nice in that it offered something none of the star chart modes offered. If I want to do defense I'll just do a star chart defense node, I'm not going to que into railjack to do a mission type I do all the time with sorties, liches, steel path etc.

I think overall it's 1 step forward 2 steps back. The missions are fun, no doubt there, but the railjack component has been made much less fun. The removal of flux energy was bad. Now instead of spawning in able to use my battle mods multiple times before going to the forge I spawn in unable to use any of them until I've killed enough things to collect the resources so I can go to the forge to make energy...at which point a competent crew will already be halfway or all the way through the railjack component of the Corpus mission. It's way more active steps to maintain your ability to use battle mods than is comparable to the ground game (it'd be like if we had to kill things to get resources so we could activate an energy pad so we could use 2 abilities before having to repeat the cycle). It also makes frames like Lavos just straight up better than any energy based frame. Old railjack I could run whatever frame/loadout I wanted and not have it impact my ability to do railjack; new railjack I need to have a dedicated pilot build if I want to use all of the stuff I put on my Plexus right out of the spawn gate.

Matchmaking I think was also a major step back. What's the point in investing in a railjack if I have no control over when I use it? It's kinda like asking me to invest in a warframe and weapon loadout but only getting to take my weapon mods with me and hope that the host is using a properly geared railjack warframe that has the right armor/shield components survival mods equipped and is using weapons I actually want to use. That wouldn't be fun in the ground game and it isn't fun in railjack. If I que from the bridge of my railjack I should always host just the way it was in old railjack. If no one wants to que as crew the new AI crew fill the gap or I form a premade. But I shouldn't have to solo que or form a premade just to use my own railjack (the same way I don't have to solo que or form a premade so I can use a frame and weapon of my choice).

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2 hours ago, HelmetTooTight said:

Would you rather it to be more co-op intensive (expanding on Points of Interest and teamwork interactions between PoIs and Railjack)? Or do you prefer it more like Corpus Railjack with the bifurcation between Railjack and Warframe portions? (I personally prefer the former, but it seems they are unfortunately bottlenecked by backend AI issues at the moment)

Why not Both?

I mean, imo, They should expand on the co-op intensive part in some missions and at the same time, expand on the integration of core Warframe into Railjack.

 

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I would love some epic space battle moments, but the current Railjack is a lot more accessible than it used to be. I give them devs thumbs up for this. When i first started with railjack i also immediately stopped playing it, due to not knowing what i am actually doing and the overall underlying mechanics, which led to the destruction of my rj in the very first free flight mission.

Later i tried it again after one of the big updates and just did it with a PUG without using my own ship and went through some nodes. I was happy to finally fullfill those missions, but I didn't see a point in playing the mode ever again. Then I finally tried it again like 10 days before this update arrived, just because i saw a youtube video how to upgrade my railjack fast  and i had actually a lot of fun grinding the hell out of Gian point, but the whole mission was very boring and repetetive so i hoped for big changes to the whole railjack.  

The current Railjack is a nice place for me to return to wreck some fighter- and crew ships in space before fullfilling a typical warframe mission. I just think that the whole space idea has more potential and i hope for some epic moments finally to arrive with call of the tempestari. So far i think the update we received is just the base platform to build upon.

What annoys me about railjack are basically only the orphix missions, which should have better rewards and should also drop necramech repair and necramech rage, which are kind of essential for this mode and gated behind an event i missed in the past.

 

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1 hour ago, bad4youLT said:

That doesn't address the problem here , people want to be able to split into small teams to do all objectives simultaneously , AI unit number limit is preventing that and DE cannot just go and increase their number .

So then why advertise this 3 years ago if it's not even possible to deliver this experience?

Edited by Voltage
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13 minutes ago, Voltage said:

So then why advertise this 3 years ago if it's not even possible to deliver this experience?

By the looks of it, they "fixed" that problem.

DE historically always shared with us their vision, their crazy ideas, their ambition, very early on its conceptual stage. When you do that, you're bound to fail every once in a while.

They stopped doing that, showing us only what they know they can commit to.

It was probably a good idea for them to be more cautious and restrained in regards to what information they share with us.

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Right direction imo, but it keeps tripping over itself and falling off the road and as a result wasting time to get back to the road.

They were so close to solving the Flux issue, but they went one step too far and put it on Warframe energy instead for example. Had they just made it per player with the forge giving each player individual energy pools and left it as it previously was then all the issues of Flux would have been solved.

Instead they took it a bit too far and made it run off the single most easily replenished resource in the game right now, Warframe energy, which as a result has turned every Railjack into a 1-button snooze fest.

Similarly they tried integrating ground missions like originally intended, but they went far too traditional with it and loaded a whole tileset/mission for something that didn't need it, they also used ground based Defense which pulled a bit too far away from the core of Railjack.

They could have instead made a Defense mission where you'd need to split your crew between a medium sized Cargo Freighter and a Railjack to repel Crewships, enemy Fighters and Boarders in tandem while the Freighter gathers materials for civilians from a nearby asteroid or something.

Basically they got everything JUST wrong enough that it is irritating how close it is to being right but still wrong.

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4 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

They did this because of AI limitation , basically there aren't enough resources for the game to handle so much AI units so idea to get around this problem was to force all players into ground instance so railjack instance could be paused , this allowed for missions like exterminate or defense to continue with out a problems .

This explaination raises several questions:

  1. If the engine cannot handle invisioned design, why is DE still commited to an impossible project?
  2. Why is it necesary to integrate regular missions into RJ? As far as I know, nobody in the entire game wanted a regular exterminate or defense mission with a pretext RJ taxi section.
3 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

By having less AI units to begin with , grineer POI are small objectives that do not have large unit count .

And what exactly is the design necessity in Volatile to be over 1000m large map, while main action is limited to just one room, while the other 900m are empty space players just rush through. This is nonsense design.

Edited by ShortCat
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4 hours ago, HelmetTooTight said:

What do y'all think of this? Is this the right direction for Railjack? Would you rather it to be more co-op intensive (expanding on Points of Interest and teamwork interactions between PoIs and Railjack)? Or do you prefer it more like Corpus Railjack with the bifurcation between Railjack and Warframe portions? (I personally prefer the former, but it seems they are unfortunately bottlenecked by backend AI issues at the moment). Let me know your thoughts (civilly)!

I think this is a false dichotomy

Railjack vs "Core", and Co-op vs Solo are not exclusive. There was really nothing in the Grineer Skirmish missions that forces you to co-op it, and as long as you can be safe from ramsleds you can solo them as much as you like, even without Command Intrinsics. Likewise there's nothing in the Corpus "Taxi" missions that forces me to play solo, and in fact I would rather be with a squad for the defense and orphix nodes.

Would I prefer there be simultaneous Railjack and on-foot objectives for some of the Corpus missions? Absolutely: I think defense missions are boring, I think getting the chance to weaken orphix with railjack guns would be cool, you could even put a little bonus in Volitile Sabotage missions (the exterior weak points become visible one by one while Cy is still hacking; you still need one player inside shooting the pipes and engineers, but another player can choose to stay in the railjack and shoot the weak points early).

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So they intend to waste the entire premise? Then why on earth did they spend all that time and money on developing it in the first place? Could have just copied the rocket cutscene from Diddy Kong Racing and said "You're in an even spacier space now with new missions such as Defence and Spy."

EDIT: Original Railjack premise, graphics WIP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0XMuBec_pg&t=10s

 

Edited by CatNV
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3 hours ago, PhiThagRaid said:

If it is lack of processing power that sounds like consoles holding back PCs, the range of PC specs are so broad that it's almost impossible to say resources are a problem for all systems, or they have very inefficient AI resource usage. 

If it is an internet speed issue, then this seems to be a hole that will be almost impossible to be dug out of. DE can't control other players' internet speeds and it seems like dedicated servers will never be a thing.

Railjack is very CPU intensive. Everytime I played it my CPU usage goes up from the usual 60 to 80 percent. I think DE have to bite the bullet and just reduce enemy spawn rates to make room for space portion if they want ground and space to run simultaneously.

It’s not the engine. They intentionally tune it down for performance reason.

 

Edited by DrivaMain
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Just now, DrivaMain said:

Railjack is very CPU intensive. Everytime I played it my CPU usage goes up from the usual 60 to 80 percent. I think DE have to bite the bullet and just reduce enemy spawn rates to make room for space portion if they want ground and space to run simultaneously.

 

 

And they can tone down the particle effects. It's getting ridiculous, especially with the Corpus enemies

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Imo, the game's so messed up right now, anything new DE attempt won't be of much playability in the long term unless it's fixed. Sorry to use a tired line, but as it is, combining RJ and ground missions will (and does) result in running an indestructible space taxi to an objective that can (and will) be cheesed, and ultimately won't be any less boring than traditional missions. While for some odd reason I kinda like RJ exterminations, the current defense missions are dreadful, orphix is only there to shoehorn mechs and even the space part of Scarlet Spear was a Limbo/Nova-fest that was only good for grinding arcanes and intrinsics until your nose oozed a little bit of your brain but you were too busy watching your favourite show to notice anyway... so the problem with RJ in fact predates RJ itself, I think.

 

Now imagine a defense mission where the ground team of your squad actually struggles to defend the sleeping beauty, all the while the guys up there do their best to shoot down reinforcements before they get to threaten the objective downstairs, whose defenders actually hope that they won't see too much action. Make it extremely incremental, so that anything beyond wave 5 (which would be reserved for pugs wishing to clear the node) required actual strategy, and people actually trying to get better at playing whatever role they picked to succeed.

 

Or a rescue mission where the ship is a diversion and the rescue team actually has to make sure to enter the hostile flagship undetected or else there'll be trouble inside, followed by a difficult railjack pursuit that can't be fended off unless the crew work as a team.

 

But no, we get mesa go brrrr hahahaha, three afkers, and a 13,7% chance to get a weapon part at rotation C. Oh, and the wet dreams of power fantasy come true, of course.

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24 minutes ago, CoalitionOfGears said:

Imo, the game's so messed up right now, anything new DE attempt won't be of much playability in the long term unless it's fixed. Sorry to use a tired line, but as it is, combining RJ and ground missions will (and does) result in running an indestructible space taxi to an objective that can (and will) be cheesed, and ultimately won't be any less boring than traditional missions. While for some odd reason I kinda like RJ exterminations, the current defense missions are dreadful, orphix is only there to shoehorn mechs and even the space part of Scarlet Spear was a Limbo/Nova-fest that was only good for grinding arcanes and intrinsics until your nose oozed a little bit of your brain but you were too busy watching your favourite show to notice anyway... so the problem with RJ in fact predates RJ itself, I think.

 

Now imagine a defense mission where the ground team of your squad actually struggles to defend the sleeping beauty, all the while the guys up there do their best to shoot down reinforcements before they get to threaten the objective downstairs, whose defenders actually hope that they won't see too much action. Make it extremely incremental, so that anything beyond wave 5 (which would be reserved for pugs wishing to clear the node) required actual strategy, and people actually trying to get better at playing whatever role they picked to succeed.

 

Or a rescue mission where the ship is a diversion and the rescue team actually has to make sure to enter the hostile flagship undetected or else there'll be trouble inside, followed by a difficult railjack pursuit that can't be fended off unless the crew work as a team.

 

But no, we get mesa go brrrr hahahaha, three afkers, and a 13,7% chance to get a weapon part at rotation C. Oh, and the wet dreams of power fantasy come true, of course.

So you want challenge and coordinated co-op.

That would be great, but outside of possible future raids and the semi co-op that already exists for optimized farming, it's just not DE's focus I don't think.

They are clearly catering for the 90% casual, not the 10% that want that. Or whatever is the ratio.

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