Is MR balancing / tiering weapons outdated?

[Tyreaus]

Weapons are at least partly (and very roughly) balanced based around their MR level. Something like a Lato (MR0) will be outperformed by a Plinx (MR6) which is supposed to be a touch further down than the Pyrana (MR12).

Honest question: what's the point of this? Am I missing something? We already have power growth through mod acquisition and levelling. Warframes aren't subject to this idea - a starter frame like Volt can keep going into late game just fine. And if something like a Lato or Kunai should have more than single-digit crit and status stats to at least try to keep up with the growing meta, shouldn't that be a thing without having to worry about the weapon being "too strong" and not eligible to be a starter weapon?

(Not to mention that it just seems like an extra headache to maintain. "Oh, we buffed this weapon, so now we have to put it at a new MR level". Why would you do that to yourself?)

Note: That's not to say weapons shouldn't be MR-locked, but that MR locking down a weapon's power range seems kind of silly. You can have things gradually become available without the newly available things necessarily being stronger.

[16Bitman]

It is not outdated.

 

Back in the day when the Boltor Prime was the top tier gun every newb wanted, it was locked to just MR 2.

This lead to a super quick burnout, as every other gun they could grind for, was weaker than what they already had, making it pointless for them to continue, it certainly didn't help that it was tradeable, so most Boltor Prime owner didn't even have to set foot into the higher tiered voids, if at all.

 

Increasing your Mastery Rank requires you to try out many different guns, but many players see no point in trying out stuff they already know is weaker than what they have, so setting up an increasing power scale locked to your increasing mastery rank gives players a more natural power progression.

 

Prime Access and certain bundles ignore that rule for the sweet $$$

[Lutesque]

It was never "In-Dated" to begin with...MR Balancing just doesn't work....

5 minutes ago, 16Bitman said:

Back in the day when the Boltor Prime was the top tier gun every newb wanted, it was locked to just MR 2.

This lead to a super quick burnout, as every other gun they could grind for, was weaker than what they already had, making it pointless for them to continue, it certainly didn't help that it was tradeable, so most Boltor Prime owner didn't even have to set foot into the higher tiered voids, if at all.

Doesn't sound like a problem.... 

Also how does Boltor Prime being lower MR lead to burnout ? It was the best weapon and they already had it.... So they could Relax and play the game just fine with no Pressure....

If it was Higher MR then they would have Burned themselves out trying to grind for both the MR and the weapon itself....

8 minutes ago, 16Bitman said:

 

Increasing your Mastery Rank requires you to try out many different guns, but many players see no point in trying out stuff they already know is weaker than what they have, so setting up an increasing power scale locked to your increasing mastery rank gives players a more natural power progression

Which leads to Hydron.... Which then leads to Burn Out....

 

[Tiltskillet]

It's outdated once you get to MR15. 😉  

[SneakyErvin]

It has always been outdated since it is a laughably horrible balance system.

[continue]

i would argue that, in theory, it can function as a progression system for people to chew on like in other games with an equipment progression system, just extremely streamlined because the loop is simply equipment -> hydron mastery rank -> equipment

however, being poorly communicated and poorly balanced makes it less effective than it could be.

i'm undecided on whether it would be better off gone, though

[Leqesai]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It has always been outdated since it is a laughably horrible balance system.

What is your solution?

[Teridax68]

Not only is the idea outdated, I'd argue it never was a good idea to begin with. The very act of trying to make higher-MR weapons more powerful makes some weapons less powerful than others, and thereby flat-out worse the moment one has access to better tools. This, in turn, makes players abandon weapons that are sometimes (but not always) intentionally made weaker than others, leaving them and whichever unique gameplay they provide in the dust. It's a terribly stupid system that wastes vast amounts of design resources and makes the game much smaller than it actually is, all in the name of progression that does not even require tiered power in order to exist.

Personally, I think the notion of tiering the power of weapons by MR ought to be eliminated completely, and all weapons ought to be balanced at roughly the same power level. The moment one decides a weapon should be stronger than others, those other weapons get abandoned in a multiplayer game where one of the core driving factors for play is the pursuit of greater power. What we should do instead is organize weapons by complexity: simpler and more general-purpose weapons should be made immediately available to players just getting started, so that they can have easy-to-use tools as they come to grips with Warframe's gameplay, whereas more complex and niche weapons, weapons with special mechanics, alt-fires, tricky firing systems and the like, ought to be made available to the player later on, once they gain the mastery necessary to be able to appreciate those weapons better. Not only would this allow for a sense of progression, it could also potentially prepare players better for weapons that they may find exciting, but wouldn't necessarily be able to fully appreciate if given the moment they start playing Warframe, like the Dual Toxocyst.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

What is your solution?

DE just needs to make a proper item budget system like most other games do. And since the game has no real levels, all weapons should be equal, the difference would just be at which MR they unlock. Kinda like how it works in Battlefield games, a new weapon at a higher rank doesnt automatically mean a better weapon.

[Leqesai]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

DE just needs to make a proper item budget system like most other games do. And since the game has no real levels, all weapons should be equal, the difference would just be at which MR they unlock. Kinda like how it works in Battlefield games, a new weapon at a higher rank doesnt automatically mean a better weapon.

So what is the point of progression/ranking up?

[SneakyErvin]

8 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

So what is the point of progression/ranking up?

Same as now, unlocking new weapons as your MR progresses. Simply something to look forward to, just as it is in other games that dont have actual level progression tied to difficulty. And getting something that might be a better weapon for your specific playstyle or frame of choice.

[Leqesai]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

Same as now, unlocking new weapons as your MR progresses. Simply something to look forward to, just as it is in other games that dont have actual level progression tied to difficulty. And getting something that might be a better weapon for your specific playstyle or frame of choice.

Hmmm... This is interesting.

[taiiat]

it was outdated before it was introduced. Mastery Rank is outdated. filling Bars for no particular reason other than they are in your way, is outdated. :)

intentionally making so many Weapons bad and not worth using isn't really helping anyone, all in all.

14 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

a new weapon at a higher rank doesnt automatically mean a better weapon.

yes pls

it's not a perfect trend but generally Weapon unlocks in Battlefield goes in order of difficulty to use. Weapons that require more from the Player to operate them tend to require more playtime to get.

[XaoGarrent]

Yes.

[Tiltskillet]

It's almost implausible that DE would ever get rid of MR tiering.  But barring that, I'd be really interested in a system where we could -raise- the MR of weapons, unlocking increased stats.  (I admit it, I practically drool at the prospect of a Sonicor with stats vaguely befitting an MR 15 weapon.)

I have a vague notion of tieing this with a way to "kuva up" weapons as well, to get extra ranks, capacity, and an elemental bonus.

[Lutesque]

9 hours ago, continue said:

I would argue that, in theory, it can function as a progression system for people to chew on like in other games with an equipment progression system, just extremely streamlined because the loop is simply equipment -> hydron mastery rank -> equipment

In other games if the game allows me to just suffer with the Starter Equipment until the actually best Equipment becomes available... Then I just suffer through it until it does... Skipping all the Fodder in between....

I really hate when a game doesn't let me do that....

Game: "Congrats... You just gained your first level... Now you can use the ne-"

Me: "No thank you... Il just wait until the actually good Sword gets unlocked... Don't waste my time with Junk."

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The very act of trying to make higher-MR weapons more powerful makes some weapons less powerful than others, and thereby flat-out worse the moment one has access to better tools. This, in turn, makes players abandon weapons that are sometimes (but not always) intentionally made weaker than others, leaving them and whichever unique gameplay they provide in the dust. It's a terribly stupid system that wastes vast amounts of design resources and makes the game much smaller than it actually is, all in the name of progression that does not even require tiered power in order to exist

PREACH !!!

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

What we should do instead is organize weapons by complexity: simpler and more general-purpose weapons should be made immediately available to players just getting started, so that they can have easy-to-use tools as they come to grips with Warframe's gameplay, whereas more complex and niche weapons, weapons with special mechanics, alt-fires, tricky firing systems and the like, ought to be made available to the player later on, once they gain the mastery necessary to be able to appreciate those weapons better.

I like it... I like it alot 🙂 !!!

7 hours ago, Leqesai said:

So what is the point of progression/ranking up?

Standing obviously....😁

7 hours ago, taiiat said:

it was outdated before it was introduced. Mastery Rank is outdated. filling Bars for no particular reason other than they are in your way, is outdated.

PREACH !!!

 

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, taiiat said:

yes pls

it's not a perfect trend but generally Weapon unlocks in Battlefield goes in order of difficulty to use. Weapons that require more from the Player to operate them tend to require more playtime to get.

Yep, exactly. And if you are good with them you get slightly more rewarded for it aswell, since you may turn that LMG you just got into the perfect run and gun option for your playstyle. And theory crafting has alot of impact aswell in those games, since knowing your weapons, yourself and your available attachments for said gun can alter its potential for you on a personal level.

I for instance cannot get burst weapons or DMRs to work for me in BF, but I can pick up an unruly ACE Galil version or the AK-74 with zero attachments or sights and just wreck everyone with them. At the same time some other guy can do the opposite. Just as I'm slightly better with a mid-ranged sniper instead of the max ranged high caliber monsters, because the bullet drop of the mid ranged guns just suit my ability to compensate better.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

I’m questioning it too. Because we have pretty mediocre weapons like Tenora Prime being locked to MR14. 
 

Like if DE’s going to make prime weapons barely even upgrades of the normal versions then the least they could do is not make the prime weapons MR significantly higher than the normal versions.

[nslay]

21 hours ago, taiiat said:

yes pls

it's not a perfect trend but generally Weapon unlocks in Battlefield goes in order of difficulty to use. Weapons that require more from the Player to operate them tend to require more playtime to get.

I actually agree with this thinking... though I'm thinking this could give counterintuitive MR balancing...

For example: Penta and Carmina Penta require more from players to make usable than Secura Penta.

• Secura Penta should be low MR
• Carmine Penta should be higher MR
• Penta should be highest MR (needs most from players to make it work viably).

It's funny to think about it this way!

Opticor should be higher MR than Opticor Vandal since the former requires more from the player to use effectively (and it does... more mods and patience).

[taiiat]

11 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I for instance cannot get burst weapons or DMRs to work for me in BF, but I can pick up an unruly ACE Galil version or the AK-74 with zero attachments or sights and just wreck everyone with them. At the same time some other guy can do the opposite. Just as I'm slightly better with a mid-ranged sniper instead of the max ranged high caliber monsters, because the bullet drop of the mid ranged guns just suit my ability to compensate better.

the slower Burst Weapons are a bit so-so for me, so no M4 or M16A4 for me - but the AN-94 is a nuclear superweapon :D (and i also just really enjoy using it too).
in BF4 DMR's were... okay to me, i didn't have any strong feelings either way about them. in BF1 i would all Class DMR's if it was possible though. Mondragon Storm feels amazing to use. Model8-35 is demonstrably better but it just doesn't do it for me personally. better, but not better for my style, if you get my drift.

inversely, in Bad Company 2 the M95 was that superweapon, i abused the hell out of that hilarious drop. it dropped fast enough that you could shoot over rocks and hit people behind them, lmao. _{(then they 'buffed' the Gun and completely ruined it, DDDD: )}

 

3 hours ago, nslay said:

I actually agree with this thinking... though I'm thinking this could give counterintuitive MR balancing...

For example: Penta and Carmina Penta require more from players to make usable than Secura Penta.
Opticor should be higher MR than Opticor Vandal since the former requires more from the player to use effectively (and it does... more mods and patience).

hold up there - functionally identical but just simply worse Variants isn't something that Battlefield has, so those don't translate. for a good system you wouldn't have direct up/downgrades of things, as that's pointless filler.
the closest to that are wacko Variants that are massively different takes on an existing Gun or existing role, giving it a completely different experience. to which end then it ends up not really being the same Gun anyways, it just happens to share a Mesh but functionally it's a new gun.

[Lutesque]

7 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I’m questioning it too. Because we have pretty mediocre weapons like Tenora Prime being locked to MR14

Don't forget Panthera Prime being worse than Original Panthera and Corinth Prime being a side grade 😝 !!!

7 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

 

Like if DE’s going to make prime weapons barely even upgrades of the normal versions then the least they could do is not make the prime weapons MR significantly higher than the normal versions

I believe in the case of Panthera Prime it was Double the MR 😱 !!! 

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

hold up there - functionally identical but just simply worse Variants isn't something that Battlefield has, so those don't translate. for a good system you wouldn't have direct up/downgrades of things, as that's pointless filler

I call it Junk.... I hate Junk....

 

[Tiltskillet]

7 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I’m questioning it too. Because we have pretty mediocre weapons like Tenora Prime being locked to MR14. 
 

Like if DE’s going to make prime weapons barely even upgrades of the normal versions then the least they could do is not make the prime weapons MR significantly higher than the normal versions.

Tenora Prime regular fire is a lot better than the base version unless you're using a riven.  Is it 4 ranks better?  I don't know, but it doesn't seem that far off.

Anyway, there are way crazier MR headscratchers.  (Aklex Prime, I'm looking at you.)

[Aldain]

17 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Like if DE’s going to make prime weapons barely even upgrades of the normal versions then the least they could do is not make the prime weapons MR significantly higher than the normal versions.

It isn't even just regular vs prime variant issues.

I posit to everyone in the thread to take a look at the Latron Prime vs the Veldt and tell me DE has any idea what they're doing with weapon balancing.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

9 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Tenora Prime regular fire is a lot better than the base version unless you're using a riven.  Is it 4 ranks better?  I don't know, but it doesn't seem that far off.

Anyway, there are way crazier MR headscratchers.  (Aklex Prime, I'm looking at you.)

2% more crit Chance.

.2 higher crit multiplier

8% more Status.

and 4 more base damage.

The prime at most should be MR11. And even then I think that’s putting its MR too high.

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, nslay said:

Opticor should be higher MR than Opticor Vandal since the former requires more from the player to use effectively (and it does... more mods and patience).

Opticor and the Vandal are a perfect example how the MR's should work. Variants should just have a different mechanic but not be straight up stronger. It could be anything from alternate fire modes to swapping status and crit values, or like with the opticor versions, different fire rates and base damage.