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Is MR balancing / tiering weapons outdated?


Tyreaus

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4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

2% more crit Chance.

.2 higher crit multiplier

8% more Status.

and 4 more base damage.

And another shot per second spooled up and a 33% larger magazine. 

These things add up and compound each other.  Taking base numbers from Overframe, that's 23% more damage per shot and 39% more sustained.  Without status.

Modded up (Standard plus Primed Cryo, Infected Clip, Primed Shred, Hunter M) it's 34% more per shot and 52% more sustained.  Again, without Viral or Hunter procs, both of which will be more plentiful and come faster.

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

The prime at most should be MR11. And even then I think that’s putting its MR too high.

Do you think the base Tenora is too high at MR10?

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2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

And another shot per second spooled up and a 33% larger magazine. 

These things add up and compound each other.  Taking base numbers from Overframe, that's 23% more damage per shot and 39% more sustained.  Without status.

Modded up (Standard plus Primed Cryo, Infected Clip, Primed Shred, Hunter M) it's 34% more per shot and 52% more sustained.  Again, without Viral or Hunter procs, both of which will be more plentiful and come faster.

Do you think the base Tenora is too high at MR10?

23% more overall damage still isn’t worth being locked at MR14.

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On 2021-03-29 at 12:11 AM, SneakyErvin said:

And since the game has no real levels.

It does, its the point of enemies and why everyone with a brain dislikes railjack, OV and Juno enemies lying compared to the rest of the game.
A progression line from regular to prime/vandal/wraith/etc only doesnt work when lootboxgachashi- i mean rivens are added as it should be the late game upgrade (however if a gun has multiple upgrade paths, those should indeed just be sidegrades/variants on what one wants).

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6 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

It does, its the point of enemies and why everyone with a brain dislikes railjack, OV and Juno enemies lying compared to the rest of the game.
A progression line from regular to prime/vandal/wraith/etc only doesnt work when lootboxgachashi- i mean rivens are added as it should be the late game upgrade (however if a gun has multiple upgrade paths, those should indeed just be sidegrades/variants on what one wants).

Still not real levels because there is no connection between player power level and mob levels. In a game with real progression the level 30-50 enemies in WF would be high level and endgame level since we can only reach 30 ranks on our gear. But we barely notice the levels even when we go past level 100 content, or level 200 content, not even in Steel Path with further increased scaling ontop of the normal. Here the level 30-50 mobs are just lowbie trash, so our levels are no actual indication of power.

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2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Still not real levels because there is no connection between player power level and mob levels. In a game with real progression the level 30-50 enemies in WF would be high level and endgame level since we can only reach 30 ranks on our gear. But we barely notice the levels even when we go past level 100 content, or level 200 content, not even in Steel Path with further increased scaling ontop of the normal. Here the level 30-50 mobs are just lowbie trash, so our levels are no actual indication of power.

There is for scaling how high their damage is and general frame rankup progression.
Just because at end game sorties/100~ is the measurement floor now doesnt mean it doesnt indicate power.
In fact thats the very point why OV, Juno, Railjack and pre fix jugulus are such outliers and garner anger from those that like consistency.

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2 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

There is for scaling how high their damage is and general frame rankup progression.
Just because at end game sorties/100~ is the measurement floor now doesnt mean it doesnt indicate power.
In fact thats the very point why OV, Juno, Railjack and pre fix jugulus are such outliers and garner anger from those that like consistency.

But it doesnt give us a quick indication of the actual threat, which is why it isnt a "real" level system. And MR, which the weapons are based on, is even futher from a real level system, since MR has zero translation into power. And none of our equipment that actually matters have any level restrictions, like all of our mods. I guess the idea of WF and levels would have stayed true if we didnt have access to mods, and our 30 ranks was the main weight of progression. But as it is, we can have gamebreaking powerful builds already at level 1 that can destroy level 45+ enemies in the click of a button.

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3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But it doesnt give us a quick indication of the actual threat, which is why it isnt a "real" level system.

Except it does. Damage is the one thing that actually scales as expected. The 3 cases where enemies lie are all only pseudo recent the ones where DE massively overbuffed base stats (the RJ enemies for example having 6.6 times the base HP of what a unit of their type should have), which notably doesnt actually include the last pre-RJ-revised case of deimos where only 1 enemy was bugged and the rest merely have per hit cap DR which does influence TTK but not raw stats (and the one other deimos enemy other than buggy juguli that got fixed are spawned units with a weakpoint mechanic/trashcan infested versions of the nox).

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But as it is, we can have gamebreaking powerful builds already at level 1 that can destroy level 45+ enemies in the click of a button.

Level 45 isnt relevant for rank 1 weapon with 4+ maxed out mods (assuming no polarity freedom from mastery rank which in its own is extra level scale as it increases the mod performance floor per weapon) unless the weapon because its effectively in the same level-power range (normal enemies in 6-8k hp, heavies in 10x that, so 1 shot mooks for a 4 mod gun or melee and 7~ shot heavies assuming you dont go for any extra external mods or have a good stance for melee.

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35 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Except it does. Damage is the one thing that actually scales as expected. The 3 cases where enemies lie are all only pseudo recent the ones where DE massively overbuffed base stats (the RJ enemies for example having 6.6 times the base HP of what a unit of their type should have), which notably doesnt actually include the last pre-RJ-revised case of deimos where only 1 enemy was bugged and the rest merely have per hit cap DR which does influence TTK but not raw stats (and the one other deimos enemy other than buggy juguli that got fixed are spawned units with a weakpoint mechanic/trashcan infested versions of the nox).

Level 45 isnt relevant for rank 1 weapon with 4+ maxed out mods (assuming no polarity freedom from mastery rank which in its own is extra level scale as it increases the mod performance floor per weapon) unless the weapon because its effectively in the same level-power range (normal enemies in 6-8k hp, heavies in 10x that, so 1 shot mooks for a 4 mod gun or melee and 7~ shot heavies assuming you dont go for any extra external mods or have a good stance for melee.

But we arent talking damage, we are talking the indication of levels on their own, where a player from a "normal" game would find no real sense in the system of WF. A new player will automatically think "yikes! a level 40!" when in reality it's just another pushover mob even when the player is halfassed geared. In any other game that level 40 versus a level 30 would indicate a threat simply by looking at its level. It really doesnt matter if levels allow scaling, because levels arent treated as levels should be in a normal sense. It is straight up silly that the game even has the amount of enemy levels that it has when it could in reality be consolidated and compressed into a handful of levels really, levels that would give a far better indication of the actual power of a mob in relation to the power of the frames. Which would also give the DE branded "high level" content of the star chart an actual meaning of high level. And the further we get in our progress, the less meaning our levels have compared to the items we find that are more or less unrelated to levels.

If the game had a real concept of levels we wouldnt grind Hydron or similar missions 24/7 to level, we'd actually progress to different missions of different levels for the best xp, and jumping into Hydron would be a death trap due to its level.

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4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But we arent talking damage, we are talking the indication of levels on their own, where a player from a "normal" game would find no real sense in the system of WF. A new player will automatically think "yikes! a level 40!"

No, that entirely depends what games they are used to.
Any other looter or long lasting MMO 40 is barely post tutorial. And sorties oturight give you what the minimum end performance needs to be (beat 100).
And damage is literally half of what level indicates. The other is their toughness.

Also rank 15~20 gear with 4-5 mods is perfectly functional to do and finish hydron even by yourself so no, i doubt anyone who finished the tutorial quests and got past earth would go "yikes".

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

If the game had a real concept of levels we wouldnt grind Hydron or similar missions 24/7 to level, we'd actually progress to different missions of different levels for the best xp, and jumping into Hydron would be a death trap due to its level.

Yes you would. Youd do so even more because hydron doesnt have the best xp, its just a very lazy yet decently efficient option. Its is what e.g. in wow used to be the 40-50 razorfen/deadmines/scarlet runs for crafting in WoW (and picking up a party that barely qualifies for the dungeon to get some tiny bits of extra cash from almost power leveling them). Its the GW1 quest+taxi services.

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34 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

No, that entirely depends what games they are used to.
Any other looter or long lasting MMO 40 is barely post tutorial. And sorties oturight give you what the minimum end performance needs to be (beat 100).
And damage is literally half of what level indicates. The other is their toughness.

Also rank 15~20 gear with 4-5 mods is perfectly functional to do and finish hydron even by yourself so no, i doubt anyone who finished the tutorial quests and got past earth would go "yikes".

Yes you would. Youd do so even more because hydron doesnt have the best xp, its just a very lazy yet decently efficient option. Its is what e.g. in wow used to be the 40-50 razorfen/deadmines/scarlet runs for crafting in WoW (and picking up a party that barely qualifies for the dungeon to get some tiny bits of extra cash from almost power leveling them). Its the GW1 quest+taxi services.

I think the point he is making is if WF had real level scaling. Seeing a number like 40 when at most your gear is level 30 would actually mean something.  WF really screwed the pooch when it comes to levels and how that scales in the game.  Even the most basic games have a more involved approach. Such as a miss match in level increases the enemies stats in relation to your own.  While downgrading your power at the same time (ie +40% damage taken +50% enemy health, -25% damage (player to enemy).  Then regardless of mods you instantly see how outclassed you are. 

WF doesn't have any of this and the modding system gives all the power to meet these levels. So there is no real way to gauge how well you as a level 30 max player scale to enemies from  level 1-999. All the MR and various progressions systems are really just badges that denote time invested instead of actual player power within the game. So the MR lock feels more like a time gating/grind mechanic than anything meaningful. 

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It's a silly mechanic.

Players don't want to waste their precious potatoes, weapon slot and forma on dead end weapons.

We call these weapons "MR Fodder" because their only use is to earn Mastery to unlock the "good" weapons. 

I kinda feel bad for the people who modelled all these weapons, but it's the fault of DE's direction just like how content creators spend all their time in the Simulacrum and don't show off the "real" game. 

Bemoaning symptoms without looking at the causes.

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3 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

I think the point he is making is if WF had real level scaling. Seeing a number like 40 when at most your gear is level 30 would actually mean something.  WF really screwed the pooch when it comes to levels and how that scales in the game.  Even the most basic games have a more involved approach. Such as a miss match in level increases the enemies stats in relation to your own.  While downgrading your power at the same time (ie +40% damage taken +50% enemy health, -25% damage (player to enemy).  Then regardless of mods you instantly see how outclassed you are. 

Complaint that you need to do some basic math of enemy dps, ehp vs yours twice doesnt change that it does still have concrete meaning (even when enemies are lying about their base stats/when its about OV, Juno and Railjack enemies, the improvement is the same proportional %). And your gear isnt only rank x, its rank x with y/z used polarity. Be it like a RPG of old where a level 20 truenamer or fighter werent able to compete even with a level 11 dread necro/wizard/hierophant or a fully decked out cyan is still worse than anything that can vanish (and especially doom); BUILD AND OPTIONS MATTER.

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

WF doesn't have any of this and the modding system gives all the power to meet these levels. So there is no real way to gauge how well you as a level 30 max player scale to enemies from  level 1-999. All the MR and various progressions systems are really just badges that denote time invested instead of actual player power within the game. So the MR lock feels more like a time gating/grind mechanic than anything meaningful. 

As it shouldnt since its final performance should depend on player usage of it. Melee was (sadly) changed to have its damage ceiling nosedive, but performance floor equally raised massively so you can count it as a exception, yet there are still people that will whine over things that are perfectly fair as far as counter options (like moa stomp) instead of things that ignore the base rules.

And yes to a degree MR lock is time gate/grind mechanic, but its main use in the weapon revamp was to show general power curve as DE envisioned at the time (with some obvious flaws/lack of number crunching, much like with the shotgun status nerf by pellet count, but thats more human error from devs that for some reason isnt fixed yet).

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12 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

No, that entirely depends what games they are used to.
Any other looter or long lasting MMO 40 is barely post tutorial. And sorties oturight give you what the minimum end performance needs to be (beat 100).
And damage is literally half of what level indicates. The other is their toughness.

Also rank 15~20 gear with 4-5 mods is perfectly functional to do and finish hydron even by yourself so no, i doubt anyone who finished the tutorial quests and got past earth would go "yikes".

Yes you would. Youd do so even more because hydron doesnt have the best xp, its just a very lazy yet decently efficient option. Its is what e.g. in wow used to be the 40-50 razorfen/deadmines/scarlet runs for crafting in WoW (and picking up a party that barely qualifies for the dungeon to get some tiny bits of extra cash from almost power leveling them). Its the GW1 quest+taxi services.

I dont know how you can fail to get the point.

I'm talking about how a player from a "normal" game would percieve facing level 40 enemies in a game with a level 30 "level" cap, i.e how people from a normal game would percieve WF "levels" the way this game is set up. You fail to get the point that there is no connection between our levels and enemy levels in any real sense.

And no, we wouldnt. We dont go from earth to sedna as we level mastery, we go to the highest and most efficient place. You need to really start reading between the lines of what is said and not take everything by the letter. The things I give are examples. But you taking it litteral kinda also proves my point, since you are probably not that used to an actual level system, if you were you'd understand what I'm refering to and how different WF is from that. I mean you miss the actual points and comment on things that are just minor "fluff" to give the point some context.

WoW, D3, GW, DaoC, BL, Grim Dawn, PoE = Real levels.

WF = Not that.

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9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont know how you can fail to get the point.

Yes, good projection, idk how you fail to understand that player gear rank is just part of the level equation for the player side of things and that enemy levels still matter in all cases (even for enemies when DE made the """level""" a lie when comparing their base stat vs rest of the games units). And that with progress through starchart (if you aint taxi/skipping) and MR you then have a curve to sortie, which in turn gives a new player a (mostly) smooth progression curve.
Smoothness is kinda derped because of how low effort cheapo kitgun bits are, but thats another discussion.

9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm talking about how a player from a "normal" game would percieve facing level 40 enemies in a game with a level 30 "level" cap, i.e how people from a normal game would percieve WF "levels" the way this game is set up. You fail to get the point that there is no connection between our levels and enemy levels in any real sense.

30 isnt the level cap of warframe. Rank 30 means nothing if 60 of your capacity on the gun and 74+ on warframe is unused.

9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And no, we wouldnt. We dont go from earth to sedna as we level mastery.

 But you do progress from available mission to newly unlocked mission for best affinity as you progress in mastery.

9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

 GW, PoE
WF = Not that.

Except the two do have the same mechanic where the on surface number doesnt represent your total build capacity as you unlocked runes and captured new skills/get drops and different skill inks to better progress (or in both cases, can cheese early on to just rush through if you already have knowledge of the game). Blizz having hard dps/gearchecks in their games as a standard in turn isnt as easy to add in a shooter where it would work assuming there is any difference in gun handling/a difference like sniper vs shotgun vs rifle exists since it makes said dps checks moot.

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1 hour ago, SteveCutler said:

It seems outdated to me. Every weapon should be balanced and viable. Weapons should be balanced by their base stats and not by riven mods.

Every weapon is viable somewhere in the origin system. I don't think we need or want DE to be devoting their time to buffing Lato and Skana, though. And Bronco has to continue to suck, or it's just not Warframe anymore.

Let the unveiling of some new riven be the catalyst that gets a player to craft a weapon they maxed out and moved on from ages ago, not some new balance patch to bring decrepit old gear up to standard. Unless it's something with a cool concept, but which has been nothing but a chore to use from the start.

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On 2021-04-01 at 3:10 PM, ZokuGojira said:

Every weapon is viable somewhere in the origin system. I don't think we need or want DE to be devoting their time to buffing Lato and Skana, though. And Bronco has to continue to suck, or it's just not Warframe anymore

Why not.... Some people like those weapons... They should be allowed to use them Everywhere.

 

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Just now, Lutesque said:

Why not.... Some people like those weapons... They should be allowed to use them Everywhere.

 

Thats why the Lato Vandal, Prisma Skana and Bronco Prime exist (well Bronco prime is derped like all shotguns in its real intended use with the nerf to status by pellet count, but it has a good zakti replacement augment with dots for the stealth frames that didnt slot PSF yet).

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13 hours ago, Lutesque said:
On 2021-04-01 at 10:10 AM, ZokuGojira said:

Every weapon is viable somewhere in the origin system. I don't think we need or want DE to be devoting their time to buffing Lato and Skana, though. And Bronco has to continue to suck, or it's just not Warframe anymore

Why not.... Some people like those weapons... They should be allowed to use them Everywhere.

I agree with ZokuGorija, we make DE waste time polishing bad weapons and nerf good weapons.

Riven mods must do this rework on bad weapons and new difficult enemies must challenge new good weapons. It is not as complicated as readjusting weapons with each update, there is an increasing number of weapons with each update. The DE will have more work with each update.

If the bad equipment/weapon becomes popular and dominating with riven the MR level of this same equipment will be increased automatically, the MR block does not block the use of the weapon in common missions, the MR block just classifies the weapon as dominant and exclusive equipment for MR30 (number example). ✌️👽

 

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13 hours ago, continue said:
On 2021-04-01 at 10:10 AM, ZokuGojira said:

And Bronco has to continue to suck, or it's just not Warframe anymore.

this makes me so sad but it's so true

I love the design of this weapon but the riven mod doesn't help us 😕

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19 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Thats why the Lato Vandal, Prisma Skana and Bronco Prime exist (well Bronco prime is derped like all shotguns in its real intended use with the nerf to status by pellet count, but it has a good zakti replacement augment with dots for the stealth frames that didnt slot PSF yet).

Yeah I don't  have a Single Lato Vandal part and I'm effectively done with ESO.... Haven't touched it since I got Khora.... Except for Nightwave but that doesn't count.

As for Prisma Skana.... Is it good ? I only ever used it as a Stat Stick for Gara's Touch Of Death Gimmick....

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6 hours ago, Famecans said:

I agree with ZokuGorija, we make DE waste time polishing bad weapons and nerf good weapons.

Riven mods must do this rework on bad weapons and new difficult enemies must challenge new good weapons. It is not as complicated as readjusting weapons with each update, there is an increasing number of weapons with each update. The DE will have more work with each update.

If the bad equipment/weapon becomes popular and dominating with riven the MR level of this same equipment will be increased automatically, the MR block does not block the use of the weapon in common missions, the MR block just classifies the weapon as dominant and exclusive equipment for MR30 (number example). ✌️👽

 

I don't like this idea 😐...

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