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Vauban's Vortex and LoS


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We all know this issue with Vauban having maxed ability range and using Vortex.

I am mostly doing solo runs and having enemies getting stuck there, here and wherever they want ... gets annoying after a while, if you have no nuker or such in your team.

I've recently started to use Zephyr for this purpose, as her Tornados are that what I actually want for Vauban (and this for years): Line of Sight suction to prevent this miserable stuck-misery.

Would make life better.

Edited by iHeuksal
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Are you asking for Vortex to be nerfed such that it requires line of sight to function? Please no... That's what makes Vortex Vortex. It's one of the big reasons why I enjoy playing Vauban.

If you want a line of sight grouping tool, why not use one of the many that already exist? Larva for example. You could even subsume that on to your Vauban if you wanted. Vauban also has Tether Coil which requires line of sight.

Tornado is a terrible grouping tool as it has very low pull range (even after the minor buff) and is not affected by ability range. But if you like it, great. Play Zephyr then?

If you're using Vauban and having trouble with enemies getting stuck in certain places, I think you just need some practice. There are a few different ways you can improve this:

  1. Experiment with Vauban's Flechette Orb. It allows you to place up to four mines in separate locations which do very effective scaling puncture damage. As you play Vauban more and get used to how Vortex works, you can identify any locations that might be problematic and drop your Flechette Orbs there. If any enemies get stuck, they'll die to the Flechette Orbs. The rest of the enemies get grouped together where you can kill them yourself.
     
  2. You can also avoid this issue by improving your positioning of Vortex. Don't just casually throw it on the ground in the middle of the map. Look for an "open middle", somewhere near to the middle but with more open space in the direction enemies are coming from. Consider verticality, not just the horizontal plane. If you can see obstacles such as fences, place your Vortex higher up so that enemies can clear those obstacles as they get pulled in. You can stick Vortex up against a wall or on the ceiling if need be.
     
  3. Remember that you can place more than one Vortex. You can have any number of them if you have enough energy. If one Vortex is pulling enemies into obstacles, then try placing multiple Vortexes in better locations so that enemies will clear obstacles and get grouped together.
     
  4. If you're using an AoE weapon (and you should be), or at least a weapon with punchthrough, you can kill enemies through walls as they get pulled closer to you. Even if they're stuck behind an obstacle, they're still made easier to kill simply by being pulled closer to you and grouped together.

Basically, as a Vauban player you need to learn to survey your environment and identify the best locations to place your different tools and traps. That's what Vauban is all about. As you play him more often and across different tilesets, you learn the good spots and can just immediately place things where they need to go.

tl;dr: Vortex is fine, great as it is, shouldn't be changed. The "issue" of enemies getting stuck can be worked around with proper placement and Flechette Orbs. Line-of-sight grouping abilities are not better. Remember that most obstacles do not even actually cause a problem, as enemies get dragged along walls until they eventually clear them and get fully pulled in.

Edited by SteveCutler
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2 hours ago, SteveCutler said:

Are you asking for Vortex to be nerfed such that it requires line of sight to function? Please no... That's what makes Vortex Vortex. It's one of the big reasons why I enjoy playing Vauban.

If you want a line of sight grouping tool, why not use one of the many that already exist? Larva for example. You could even subsume that on to your Vauban if you wanted. Vauban also has Tether Coil which requires line of sight.

Tornado is a terrible grouping tool as it has very low pull range (even after the minor buff) and is not affected by ability range. But if you like it, great. Play Zephyr then?

If you're using Vauban and having trouble with enemies getting stuck in certain places, I think you just need some practice. There are a few different ways you can improve this:

  1. Experiment with Vauban's Flechette Orb. It allows you to place up to four mines in separate locations which do very effective scaling puncture damage. As you play Vauban more and get used to how Vortex works, you can identify any locations that might be problematic and drop your Flechette Orbs there. If any enemies get stuck, they'll die to the Flechette Orbs. The rest of the enemies get grouped together where you can kill them yourself.
     
  2. You can also avoid this issue by improving your positioning of Vortex. Don't just casually throw it on the ground in the middle of the map. Look for an "open middle", somewhere near to the middle but with more open space in the direction enemies are coming from. Consider verticality, not just the horizontal plane. If you can see obstacles such as fences, place your Vortex higher up so that enemies can clear those obstacles as they get pulled in. You can stick Vortex up against a wall or on the ceiling if need be.
     
  3. Finally, remember that you can place more than one Vortex. You can have any number of them if you have enough energy. If one Vortex is pulling enemies into obstacles, then try placing multiple Vortexes in better locations so that enemies will clear obstacles and get grouped together.

Basically, as a Vauban player you need to learn to survey your environment and identify the best locations to place your different tools and traps. That's what Vauban is all about. As you play him more often and across different tilesets, you learn the good spots and can just immediately place things where they need to go.

tl;dr: Vortex is fine, great as it is, shouldn't be changed. The "issue" of enemies getting stuck can be worked around with proper placement and Flechette Orbs. Line-of-sight grouping abilities are not better. Remember that most obstacles do not even actually cause a problem, as enemies get dragged along walls until they eventually clear them and get fully pulled in.

Are you really comparing Larva with Vortex?

You would rather prefer enemies being stuck everywhere, so you waste your time running around and trying to figure out where they are getting stuck at and try to kill them efficiently?

Using Airburst is the same like using Vortex, but without having enemies being hanging around for 100 of seconds around, till your Vortex runs out. On the other hand Tornados with Airburst are doing the job better in synergy than Vortex with Tether Coil.

TL;DR

It needs LoS.

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Line of sight would probably work well on a persistent aoe, yeah. Not sure it'd work quite as instantly for disabling every enemy in the same zip code as an interception node anymore, however.

I find i have the least traffic jams if I throw vortex in the ceiling.

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I wonder if they can code it so enemies being sucked in by Vortex would ignore collision and just collect at the center... it's space-bending magical device domain we're in after all.

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Vortex with LoS, so you have to look at the vortex for the suction to be happening, as the ones coming behind you didnt get suctioned, get grabbed by something that can knock you over, lose LoS and they started to get up and starts peppering you, look at the Vortex again to suck them up again, rinse and repeat. I'm sure this would make a hilarious situation. :clem:

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3 hours ago, iHeuksal said:

so you waste your time running around and trying to figure out where they are getting stuck at and try to kill them efficiently?

I don't. If you read my post again, you'll see the explanation for how I avoid that.

Vortex is Vortex because it works through walls. There are plenty of other grouping abilities that require line of sight. Use those if you want line of sight instead of trying to destroy Vortex by making it the same as all the others.

For me, Vortex is more efficient and more powerful than those other grouping abilities specifically because it doesn't require line of sight. It grabs more enemies because it doesn't require line of sight. Most of those extra grabbed enemies still get grouped together because the enemies slide along walls, slopes, etc. and then break clear of the obstruction. Enemies that do get obstructed can be dealt with through various means.

As a bit of an analogy, think of Khora's Whipclaw ability. That used to be an absolute powerhouse, an incredible damaging ability, specifically because it was unrestricted and worked through walls. It was changed to require line of sight, which absolutely destroyed the ability and made everybody unhappy. Requiring line of sight is incredibly restrictive, more so than you might think at a glance. There are so many little objects and obstructions that would render enemies totally immune to the ability. Vortex's ability to work through walls over such a large range is what makes it one of the greatest crowd control abilities in the game.

Edited by SteveCutler
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9 hours ago, SteveCutler said:

Khora's Whipclaw
...

It was changed to require line of sight, which absolutely destroyed the ability and made everybody unhappy.

That's not a fitting comparison, though. Khora's Whipclaw is an instantaneous move only used to kill things. Killing things through walls has a 0% chance of slowing the pace down, unlike enemies getting stuck in overcomplicated geometry for 180 seconds.

Compare instead to Baruuk's Lull, which currently requires line of sight, and is better at defense because of it. Enemies will fall asleep only when they appear somewhere they can be shot at, instead of stopping behind a wall somewhere and slowing the round down.

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I've had this thought many times before.

Line of sight is usually annoying but as soon as the enemies came out of cover they'd be drawn into the vortex as they should be and enemies that are behind cover wouldn't just ragdoll and get stuck. So annoying when another Vauban player is careless with their Vortex and just causes everyone to go around each nook and cranny to kill the enemies, slowing the wave to a crawl instead of speeding it up. I generally throw my vortex in spots that are high up or out of the way so the flow of enemies is smoother an less of them get stuck in geometry.

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I have Enemy Radar on all my builds, either on the frame or the companion. Finding stuck / hidden enemies is not an issue.
I regularly use Vauban on Hydron for leveling weapons. Once i spotted where enemies regularly get stuck with Vortex, i simply deploy Flechette Orbs there. Stuck enemies are not an issue.

Vortex is fine as it is.

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I use Umbral Booben Prime so I don't have this Issue....

What DE wants you to do is to use Bastille instead of Vortex... And they don't want your Bastille to be too large.... Mine is Only Big Enough to capture Enemies that get close enough to the Cryopods (Hydron/Helene) that you can see them....

 

If you need more Range then what DE wants you to do is to drop a Tether Coil... The Tether Coils have Double the Range of Bastille and a Line Of Sight Requirement meaning they won't pull enemies Getting stuck into walls...

 

And that's where the Real Problem is.... THE TETHER COILS DON'T WORK !!! 😱

 

No seriously.... Drop a Tether Coil on the floor and Watch as the enemies get stuck IN OPEN SPACE with nothing Obstructing them....

I don't blame you for using a Max Range Vortex Build....

For all intensive purpose it is more Practical with the one exception that you just Described....  but since I have Umbral Booben I would really like these Tethers Fixed.... Please !!! 

On 2021-04-01 at 12:56 PM, SteveCutler said:

Are you asking for Vortex to be nerfed such that it requires line of sight to function? Please no... That's what makes Vortex Vortex. It's one of the big reasons why I enjoy playing Vauban.

Indeed.... Every Frame should have atleast one Ability that goes through walls.... Otherwise you're going to wind up like Harrow... Confined to the life of a Monk while your Team Mates steal all your Kills.

On 2021-04-01 at 12:56 PM, SteveCutler said:

Vauban also has Tether Coil which requires line of sight.

DE please Fix !!! 😥

On 2021-04-01 at 12:56 PM, SteveCutler said:
  •  
  • You can also avoid this issue by improving your positioning of Vortex. Don't just casually throw it on the ground in the middle of the map. Look for an "open middle", somewhere near to the middle but with more open space in the direction enemies are coming from. Consider verticality, not just the horizontal plane. If you can see obstacles such as fences, place your Vortex higher up so that enemies can clear those obstacles as they get pulled in. You can stick Vortex up against a wall or on the ceiling if need be

How exactly do Booben's do this ? I tried this multiple times and my Grenade refuses to Activate until they Touch The Ground.... Only Orbital Strike seems to have Timed Activation. 🤔

On 2021-04-01 at 12:56 PM, SteveCutler said:
  •  
  • Remember that you can place more than one Vortex. You can have any number of them if you have enough energy

100 Energy per Vortex 😲 !!!

On 2021-04-01 at 12:56 PM, SteveCutler said:

If you're using an AoE weapon (and you should be), or at least a weapon with punchthrough, you can kill enemies through walls as they get pulled closer to you. Even if they're stuck behind an obstacle, they're still made easier to kill simply by being pulled closer to you and grouped together

Hmmmm..... Time to Dust Off that Zenith 🤔 !! 

On 2021-04-01 at 3:08 PM, iHeuksal said:

 

It needs LoS.

It doesn't.... Well I mean if you're going Max Range then yeah it does but.... You know.... Don't go Max Range....  Try medium Range + Other Abilities.

On 2021-04-01 at 3:40 PM, PsiWarp said:

I wonder if they can code it so enemies being sucked in by Vortex would ignore collision and just collect at the center... it's space-bending magical device domain we're in after all.

This is a very Slippery Slope 🤔.... He might Dethrone Limbo with this Change....

On 2021-04-01 at 6:06 PM, SteveCutler said:

 

For me, Vortex is more efficient and more powerful than those other grouping abilities specifically because it doesn't require line of sight. It grabs more enemies because it doesn't require line of sight. Most of those extra grabbed enemies still get grouped together because the enemies slide along walls, slopes, etc. and then break clear of the obstruction. Enemies that do get obstructed can be dealt with through various means

Don't forget... Vortex also Grabs Loot too 😀 !!!

On 2021-04-02 at 3:20 AM, Zeddypanda said:

Compare instead to Baruuk's Lull, which currently requires line of sight, and is better at defense because of it. Enemies will fall asleep only when they appear somewhere they can be shot at, instead of stopping behind a wall somewhere and slowing the round down.

You know... I was going to bring that up.... But I don't have enough Experience with Lull to say that it's one of the better Line Of Sight CC's....

After all.... To make it an effective CC you're going to want more Duration.... But if you do that then the time it takes for the CC to take full effect also takes longer.... Hence enemies might get into Line Of Sight.... Start getting Sleepy... And then accidentally wonder Out Line Of Sight just before they pass out....

This wouldn't be an Issue if your Daggers got to them first because Melee AI's pathing is programmed to take the most Direct root to its Target but Ranged AI tends to be more Skittish with its pathing. That's why Loki is 2nd best Support after Nova.

On 2021-04-02 at 8:46 AM, maycne.sonahoz said:

I have Enemy Radar on all my builds, either on the frame or the companion. Finding stuck / hidden enemies is not an issue.

Remember when Baro showed up with Primed Animal Instinct ?.... I bought 3 of those Bad boys.... This was the only Primed Mod I had no issues Selling... It's just that good 😁 !!!

 

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28 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

THE TETHER COILS DON'T WORK !!! 😱

I've been complaining about this forever, they're busted. The enemies just fall over and lye there. When the rework first went out they pulled enemies pretty far and fast, when you'd slam a grouping of them they'd be flung out and then rubberband back to the tether. Somewhere after that they were broken and no matter how many times we report it they don't fix it. And no, power strength does not affect the strength of the pull. its terrible and it hurts my soul every time I play vauban.

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39 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

What DE wants you to do is to use Bastille instead of Vortex... And they don't want your Bastille to be too large.... Mine is Only Big Enough to capture Enemies that get close enough to the Cryopods (Hydron/Helene) that you can see them....

If you need more Range then what DE wants you to do is to drop a Tether Coil... The Tether Coils have Double the Range of Bastille and a Line Of Sight Requirement meaning they won't pull enemies Getting stuck into walls...

And that's where the Real Problem is.... THE TETHER COILS DON'T WORK !!! 😱

 

I tried this playstyle out yesterday in an Axi survival and it was pretty cool! What you do is throw the tether coil up so it sticks in the ceiling. Enemies will swing in, get yielded from Tether Coil to Bastille, and then the coil is ready to yank another enemy. The problem is that this is just as power hungry as vortex stacking with not really all that much benefit. Despite maintaining 1000 extra armor at all times, I was slowly dying off, a problem I don't have with Vortex stacks constantly fetching me health orbs and disabling every enemy in the same zip code.

43 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

How exactly do Booben's do this ? I tried this multiple times and my Grenade refuses to Activate until they Touch The Ground.... Only Orbital Strike seems to have Timed Activation. 🤔

100 Energy per Vortex 😲 !!!

Hit the ceiling or a high-up wall. Vortex will detonate on any surface. Since Vortex outclasses all of Vauban's other kit (or indeed, any other CC. There's simply no way to top disabling and pulling together infinite enemies continuously over an immense radius short of an ability that just kills them), it's easy to spec Vauban for max efficiency + duration/range, and Zenurik will be more than capable of maintaining multiple fully stacked vortexes lasting for several minutes with Repelling Bastille.

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1 hour ago, xcrimsonlegendx said:

I've been complaining about this forever, they're busted. The enemies just fall over and lye there. When the rework first went out they pulled enemies pretty far and fast, when you'd slam a grouping of them they'd be flung out and then rubberband back to the tether. Somewhere after that they were broken and no matter how many times we report it they don't fix it. And no, power strength does not affect the strength of the pull. its terrible and it hurts my soul every time I play vauban.

You Know !!! 😥

What bugs me is this is how they designed the Synergy to Work and it's not Broken at all... So why is it so Hard to fix ? 

I hope this doesn't wind up like Relentless Combination where it goes ignored For so long it becomes Cannon.... That being said.... Kudos to DE for Actually eventually fixing Relentless Combination.... Works Great on Baruuk (don't put it on Desert Storm or whatever he's fists are called)...

1 hour ago, Zeddypanda said:

I tried this playstyle out yesterday in an Axi survival and it was pretty cool! What you do is throw the tether coil up so it sticks in the ceiling. Enemies will swing in, get yielded from Tether Coil to Bastille, and then the coil is ready to yank another enemy. The problem is that this is just as power hungry as vortex stacking with not really all that much benefit. Despite maintaining 1000 extra armor at all times, I was slowly dying off, a problem I don't have with Vortex stacks constantly fetching me health orbs and disabling every enemy in the same zip code

Well... I did mention that I am using Booben Umbra so my Bastille can hold more Enemies and I have Slightly higher EHP than regular Booben Prime builds.... So all in all I only get that problem alil later than usual....

As for Energy.... I can Sustain this much Easier than I can Sustain the Vortex Build.... I don't know why... I just Can for some unknown Reason.... 

Maybe it's because I'm always Staring at Bastille's Timer so that I can Collapse it into. Vortex (It works just like Collapsing Cataclysm... Doesn't cost Energy).... From there I just Stab anything caught in the Vortex and pray for an RNG and for Energize to Proc... I only need One to keep the Combo going.... If Zi get more than il just throw some Orbital Strike's just for Fun 😝....

BTW... The Rag Doll effect caused by Vortex is technically a Status Effect and can be Negated by Ancient Healers getting Sucked into one.... I combat this by using Weapons with Innate Radiation Damage (Tatsu, Kuva Chakkhur, Etc) so I Rarely see it.... But it is funny seeing a Heavy Gunner getting Sucked into a Vortex but without so much as Flinching.

1 hour ago, Zeddypanda said:

Hit the ceiling or a high-up wall. Vortex will detonate on any surface. Since Vortex outclasses all of Vauban's other kit (or indeed, any other CC

Oh... It has to actually Touch Something.... I thought it was Timed like Orbital Strike 😆 !!!

1 hour ago, Zeddypanda said:

There's simply no way to top disabling and pulling together infinite enemies continuously over an immense radius short of an ability that just kills them), it's easy to spec Vauban for max efficiency + duration/range, and Zenurik will be more than capable of maintaining multiple fully stacked vortexes lasting for several minutes with Repelling Bastille.

True.... But it is Boring.... And unsustainable if you're one and only source of Energy Acquisition is praying for Energize to Proc.... I don't even know why I use Naramon for Booben... At some point I just tired of Switching Schools and just left it there.

You know what's Funny about Vortex.... Swinging your Melee Weapon in to the Pile of Bodies just once and seeing your Combo Multiple jump to X10 Immediately 😆 !!!

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Here's a tip for you if you're struggling with energy: infuse Spectrorage on your Vauban, and use the Spectrosiphon mod. Infinite energy for you and the entire team when combined with Vortex.

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