STAT Squish: Enemy Armor shouldn't Scale, Critical Damage and Viral bonuses should be Additive with Base Damage

[continue]

Outside of pre-status-3.0 Ballistic Battery gas memes, no I cannot. I promise you that I was not asking rhetorically, and I apologize for that jab I took at you earlier. Outside of a Condition Overload primer, I genuinely cannot envision such a build currently, and I acknowledge that this is moreso evidence of my lack of perspective than evidence that such a build does not exist. I would really appreciate it if you could share such a build.

[taiiat]

3 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

With this, Serration won't be a mandatory mod anymore. For melee this also decouples Blood Rush from Condition Overload and helps alleviate the melee meta.

i can't wait until 30 seconds after such an Update pushed that people complained that another generic Mod replaced it on 95% of Guns just like now.
and both Blood Rush and Condition Overload would still be optimal together in such a scenario, still.

3 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

My Cryotra setup uses fire rate and status chance, forgoing both multishot and serration. FWIW.

it would definitely be better with some Multi-Shot though. 8 Mod Slots after all, not like it has to compete with a whole lot.

[Proscriptor]

1 minute ago, Tyreaus said:

....

My Cryotra setup uses fire rate and status chance, forgoing both multishot and serration. FWIW.

You are sacrificing a lot of status chance because mulishot (invisibly) multiplies beam status chance. 

[Tyreaus]

26 minutes ago, Proscriptor said:

You are sacrificing a lot of status chance because mulishot (invisibly) multiplies beam status chance. 

Does that make up for the fire rate status chance bug? (That and the vigilante set bonus)

EDIT: Though, thanks for letting me know. Last I had checked, multishot didn't affect status on beam weapons. So I've learned something new. That said, I also don't treat "mandatory"-as-a-classification as a binary. Some mods are more mandatory than others, and that multishot beats out Serration in that "contest" doesn't, to me, indicate Serration is just fine.

[continue]

he's freaking gone

[-Kittens-]

2 hours ago, continue said:

let's see... blood rush, check. condition overload, check. hunter munitions, check. viral, check. corrosive, check. heat, check. serration, check. hornet strike, check. lethal torrent, check. barrel diffusion, check. split chamber, check. primed pistol gambit, check. primed target cracker, check. vital sense, check. point strike, check. primed heated charge, check.

if i have to look very hard, maybe it doesn't pass the "see for yourself" test. have you considered that an outside observer might have a more objective perspective than a fan?

Nah, you're simply wrong.

 

CZ alone almost amongst all WF content creators builds for "satisfactorial feel" taking into account how the weapon works in usage and presence in mission especially at low levels and with low mr guns, and uses per usual build three slots to accomplish what he feels is likely to make the gun more than anything fun to use. Irrespective of damage output.

Also it's even more telling that you invoke Hunter munitions on ROF weapons because especially on continuals outside of the Glaxion, HM is absolutely worthless, and anyone following the "inherent meta" as you posit it wouldn't bother using it. On any continual of "properly modded meta" worth the target should be dead before HM ever kicks in. HM is useless on continuals unless the enemies you're facing are over level 200 or have mutator based (aka sortie) based damage resistance and are otherwise a literal waste of a slot unless the gun in question does massive front loaded damage and has a terrible fire rate or a minuscule magazine and/or punishing reload. Like Snipes.

For someone complaining about hard looks you aren't looking very hard yourself.

[Aldain]

I want a stat squish if only because we need to get rid of this asinine range of expectable damage output/intake.

We don't need disgusting amounts of pointless overkill, we shouldn't need nigh-infinite scaling mods or eternal CC, Warframe shouldn't be a game that is solved rather than beaten.

[Luther848]

4 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Headshot multiplier and Crit multiplier shouldn't be separate things that are multiplicative with each other. Headshots should simply have a flat +100% Crit Chance.

If you have a negative crit riven does that mean headshots would have a chance to not crit and deal normal damage?

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

1 minute ago, Luther848 said:

If you have a negative crit riven does that mean headshots would have a chance to not crit and deal normal damage?

Negative crit chance scales with base Crit Chance and is not a flat number.

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, continue said:

*grandma voice* back in my day, akbronco prime could do its job without hornet strike!

Dizzying Rounds Bronco still does, grammy!

The only barely reasonable excuse  I can think of to forgo multishot though is....

 . . .  . . .

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/GAK9tT8pXg8?t=1

Spoiler

Wait!  No!  That's not it.  It's...

Spoiler

Stealth affinity 1HKs if I felt like doing them with a ranged weapon for some reason. 💩

 

 

[Luther848]

Just now, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Negative crit chance scales with base Crit Chance and is not a flat number.

If you have a riven with let's say 30% Crit Chance and a riven with -150% crit chance that would bring you to about -15% crit chance. The way I interpreted the quot was that the flat +100% crit chance would be added to your base crit + mods meaning you could get orange or red crits on headshots. If your weapons has -negative crit does it add to the negative crit or does it set you crit to a flat 100% on headshot?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

No thank you. Learn how to mod. Strip armor and/or use faction damage mods.

The game is easy enough, we shouldn't be catering to people that are low effort players. You have the entire starchart to be casual. Just because steel path made you realize you actually have to do something doesn't mean we should all be punished.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

No thank you. Learn how to mod. Strip armor and/or use faction damage mods.

The game is easy enough, we shouldn't be catering to people that are low effort players. You have the entire starchart to be casual. Just because steel path made you realize you actually have to do something doesn't mean we should all be punished.

Missing the point as usual.

[4thBro]

5 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I mean it's pretty obvious. Right now Fire Rate seems to be fairly uncommon in gun builds outside of secondaries or special cases, so if Serration provided a lower multiplier people would just use the next best thing. It's not really a solution to required mods. I don't know if making Viral and Crit additive is really all that necessary.

Fire rate is a separate DPS multiplier, so in basically every case, your gun will do more DPS with a fire rate mod than without one.

 

It just becomes a question of ammo efficiency (and reload time). The new exilus slots automatically remedy the ammo efficiency problem if needed. And frankly, a lot of weapons can spare a reload speed mod slot if the reload time is really that bad, since we're doing way more damage than we will ever need to be doing anyway (if you're modding well, I guess).

 

Anyway, I kind of like the current WF setup. It creates moments where it separates the good & the bad. The suggested "stat squish" will vastly blur that distinction, and often even eradicate it. But currently, you can get by just fine without even being good. So why not let the good players have their harmless separation?

[4thBro]

46 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Missing the point as usual.

He did miss the point, but the point is short-sighted.

 

There will ALWAYS be a "best path". A stat squish, nerfing armor (or buffing shield to its level), etc, all these things don't change that fact.

 

All you want is to be able to run suboptimal stuff and still do well. But you can already do that anyway.

 

But if you want to push the game's hardest content with suboptimal stuff, that shouldn't be doable. (There's still wiggle room here and there, but if you want to be able to push level 10,000 Grineer enemies with your beloved Magnetic setup, you shouldn't try to nerf the entire game so that you're now able to do that.)

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 minute ago, 4thBro said:

He did miss the point, but the point is short-sighted.

 

There will ALWAYS be a "best path". A stat squish, nerfing armor (or buffing shield to its level), etc, all these things don't change that fact.

 

All you want is to be able to run suboptimal stuff and still do well. But you can already do that anyway.

 

But if you want to push the game's hardest content with suboptimal stuff, that shouldn't be doable. (There's still wiggle room here and there, but if you want to be able to push level 10,000 Grineer enemies with your beloved Magnetic setup, you shouldn't try to nerf the entire game so that you're now able to do that.)

The point has been missed yet again it seems. The post isn’t asking for harder content to be done with suboptimal weapons/builds. It’s asking for a better normalization of enemy stats and a nerf to some of the multipliers we can stack.

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

The post isn’t asking for harder content to be done with suboptimal weapons/builds. It’s asking for a better normalization of enemy stats and a nerf to some of the multipliers we can stack.

And as a result of that also making more varied content possible because the devs no longer have to choose between playing into the hysterical multiplers/power creep or making mechanics that ignore not only the power creep, but also core components of the game.

This power creep has done nothing to further the game in any way, all it has done is make content design get more and more narrow.

[4thBro]

You said the same thing but with a different organization of your words......

[Tyreaus]

1 hour ago, Luther848 said:

If you have a riven with let's say 30% Crit Chance and a riven with -150% crit chance that would bring you to about -15% crit chance. The way I interpreted the quot was that the flat +100% crit chance would be added to your base crit + mods meaning you could get orange or red crits on headshots. If your weapons has -negative crit does it add to the negative crit or does it set you crit to a flat 100% on headshot?

I feel like this would be readily fixed by setting crit chance to 0% when dealing with headshots, or setting headshot crit chance to never dip below 100%. As long as the developer is careful to catch those use cases, they're easy to set up with conditionals (i.e. "if crit chance < 0 then crit chance = 100").

26 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

There will ALWAYS be a "best path". A stat squish, nerfing armor (or buffing shield to its level), etc, all these things don't change that fact.

 

All you want is to be able to run suboptimal stuff and still do well. But you can already do that anyway.

I think - or, at least, I hope - the point isn't to get away from a "best path" or enable running suboptimal equipment to an optimal point. Rather, the point is to narrow distances between things, like the optimal path and the next step down from that. We currently have things like Steel Path that, if not done with the optimal equipment, is a long slog if not actually impossible (depending on the mission type and kill rate demands, at least). In other places, we have things like the Sergeant, where the content is balanced for middle-of-the-road and rendered functionally obsolete by armaments even just a few steps above. And, across the board, we have things like invulnerability phases and status immunities used as stopgaps to keep things like the Sergeant from happening - the sorts of things people, by and large, dislike because it neuters the game's pacing.

I'm pretty sure we all know there will always be a best path, and there will be some variance in how well equipment does for stuff it's not intended. But the current breadth has made a lot of content mixes non-functional in one sense or another.

EDIT: And, to be clear, this can have real consequences too. Anybody excited to have Zakti Prime? Anybody even remember that had a primed variant? That's something DE sold. As far as I've ever seen it mentioned - admittedly not a lot - it was pretty much MR fodder on arrival.

[Aldain]

46 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Anybody excited to have Zakti Prime? Anybody even remember that had a primed variant? That's something DE sold. As far as I've ever seen it mentioned - admittedly not a lot - it was pretty much MR fodder on arrival.

To be fair the main reason for the Zakti being bad is because Gas damage is a dumpster fire right now.

Though the statistical/functional differences are also pretty negligible, which is kind of similar to how the Latron Prime is, such a small boost in power (aside from Status, which is unfortunately overshadowed by the very existence of the Kuva Nukor) that nobody really bothers using it.

That's another reason for a Stat Squish though, because due to the absurd gap in power basically makes "sub-optimal" things useless out the gate, which means at best the only other status secondary weapons will just be Diet Kuva Nukors because it is just that damn good at being a status hose.

And I personally want to vomit every time somebody tries to claim that Riven mods help weaker weapons, sure they do, in the same way a crutch helps a person with a broken leg, it doesn't solve the broken leg, just makes it not completely unbearable.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Missing the point as usual.

You realize the problem isn't people missing out on your "I can fix what I think are the oh so terrible problems" point, correct? Is that what you think is happening? That I just need to be properly educated then I'll magically understand your correct way....?

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, 4thBro said:

There will ALWAYS be a "best path". A stat squish, nerfing armor (or buffing shield to its level), etc, all these things don't change that fact.

It won't change that fact, but it will make more options good enough that they can realistically compete with the best choice. Would you give up 10% of your power to use a weapon you like more? I would. 20%? Sure. 50%? Probably not... 75%? Definitely not. When Weapon A can pull 200k DPS like it's nothing and Weapon B can only do 50k... I'd bet you're not gonna recommend using Weapon B. Even if you really like it that's a pretty hard sell.

[Zeclem]

i guess people wont stop complaining about the armor scaling as long as they cant clear maps without clicking.

actually no, there will be complaints even after that.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

It won't change that fact, but it will make more options good enough that they can realistically compete with the best choice. Would you give up 10% of your power to use a weapon you like more? I would. 20%? Sure. 50%? Probably not... 75%? Definitely not. When Weapon A can pull 200k DPS like it's nothing and Weapon B can only do 50k... I'd bet you're not gonna recommend using Weapon B. Even if you really like it that's a pretty hard sell.

A Magnus is never gonna compete with a fulmin.

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

1 hour ago, Zeclem said:

i guess people wont stop complaining about the armor scaling as long as they cant clear maps without clicking.

actually no, there will be complaints even after that.

What didn’t you get about nerfing enemy EHP and nerfing player damage output equally? The aim of the proposed change isn’t to make the game harder or easier, but just to make sure that some weapons don’t have 4x the dps of others, even inside the same MR bracket.