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STAT Squish: Enemy Armor shouldn't Scale, Critical Damage and Viral bonuses should be Additive with Base Damage


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2 hours ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

This is the first time I've seen someone besides me using sealioning as a term. I was starting to think it wasn't a real term I have heard it so rarely (or never.)

i'll be honest, i actually misremembered it as seawhaling before going "wait that's not right". not a very common term, despite being really helpful for describing a specific thing

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Maggy said:

I agree with the direction you're going in, but this is just a band-aid fix to the viral meta. The game needs changes to how armour functions to truly kill the viral slash meta and bring balance back to the elements. Of course there would need to be other tweaks besides just armour changes, but without the armour changes, nothing will truly "fix" balance. They will all just be band-aid fixes, complicating the issue even more in many cases.

Conceptually, there is nothing wrong with how armor works except for the fact enemy armor scales at all.

eHP=HP*(Net armor +300)/300

Every 300 armor is equivocal to +100% eHP.

On Warframes which are restrained by mod capacity and slots, this isn't anything broken compared to Shields, but unfortunately, enemies don't have those restraints.

300 armor is equivocal in protection as a Corpus unit that maintains a 1:1 ratio of health to shields with the caveat that armored enemies are susceptible to both armor and flesh weaknesses. Perfectly acceptable if armor values remained flat, but they don't.

Against a Base Level Heavy Gunner with 500 ferrite armor, which is 62.5% Damage Reduction.

  • 100 Neutral will deal 37.5.
  • 100 Impact will deal 28. 
  • 100 Puncture will deal 82.
  • 100 Slash will deal 42.
  • 100 Base damage, Bleed ticks for 35 each.
  • 100 Toxin will deal 37.5.
  • 100 Base damage, Poison ticks for 18.75*(1+%Toxin mods) each.

For a new player clearing out the early levels of the star chart, IPS is reasonably balanced, especially with the fact that early weapons have abysmal status %. But someone at DE decided that armor should scale for whatever reason.

Against a Sortie Level Heavy Gunner with ~6000 ferrite armor, which is 95% Damage Reduction.

  • 100 Neutral will deal 5.
  • 100 Impact will deal 3.75.
  • 100 Puncture will deal 13.5.
  • 100 Slash will deal 5.
  • 100 Base damage, Bleed ticks for 35 each.
  • 100 Base damage, Poison ticks for 2.5*(1+%Toxin mods) each.

If the sortie level Heavy Gunner had 500 armor just like the base variant, the damage system would be more than acceptable (with the exception of Viral whose proc on its own gives a bigger damage multiplier than Corrosive's proc against armored enemies up to Sortie level), but because armor scales, every other damage that can't circumvent armor scaling (everything that is not Bleed) eventually falls off.

The only reason DE didn't get rid of the ill-thought armor scaling is because player damage scaling was equally ill-thought out as non-armored enemies evaporate when hit with anything.

Edited by DealerOfAbsolutes
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  • 1 month later...
Le 04/04/2021 à 18:57, PublikDomain a dit :

And while there aren't that many, there are plenty that could exist:

Accuracy mods, shot pattern mods, ricochet mods, more conditional mods, firing mode mods, mods that add alternate attacks, weapon mods for defense, a mod that throws your reloaded magazine like a grenade, zoom mods, exploding bullet mods, damage conversion mods, more corrupted mods that trade A for B, a mod that changes launchers to fire cluster bombs, a mod for launchers that fires seeking roller bombs, a mod that changes a rifle to a beam, a mod that causes beams to fire laser projectiles, homing projectile mods, and so on.

Many goods idea in few lines 👌

Defensive mods and alternative attacks could be great.

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Proposed: BASE*(1+1.65+3.4+3.25)=9.3*BASE

This part might have issues when making enemies squishier.

Let's pretend that your proposed change goes live. Since that 3.4 is basically a 340% base damage compare to 165%, it would leave the similar issue on why people don't stack PPP and CO: diminishing return.

People will no longer run Serration on weapons with decent CC since if x weapon can crit reliably *look at Blood Rush and Kuva Bramma*, which leave Serration become niche for weapons that can't crit. Because running Serration is no longer optimal for crit weapons, which make going for something like Primed Bane of Grineer be easier or whatever multiplicative opportunity costs still make weapon damage become insane, especially vs nerfed enemies' EHP.

Old case similar happened before with from old CO exist (exponential scaling total damage multiplier) vs. enemies' old EHP scaling in which DE fixed the sheer discrepancy and sure, more loadouts are more viable to longer runs, but effectively it makes the enemy squishier in the end to this day.

Proposed change like this would promote more strict meta build since maybe 2 weeks after it goes live, people would go "WTF r u running both Serration and Vital Sense together on Acceltra? Fkin use a faction mod or firestorm for big KPS".

Good idea to fix discrepancies, but do it in a way that respect build variety and NOT making enemies be squishier than before as DE done so. Of course I don't like bullet sponge either, but there is a fkin problem when a Moa Demolyst of lvl 9999 die in merely 6 seconds solo with a Telos Boltace with Shattering Impact and a primer Kuva Nukor (melees have no downtime of DPS and being AOE and all). God forbids a Tigris Prime ("heavy" hitting shotgun that is narrow-targeted, mid-short range, and cucked by DPS downtime) EVER hope to achieve what melees can do for IMO that is the bigger issue right now.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Ragnafiro said:

Proposed: BASE*(1+1.65+3.4+3.25)=9.3*BASE

This part might have issues when making enemies squishier.

Let's pretend that your proposed change goes live. Since that 3.4 is basically a 340% base damage compare to 165%, it would leave the similar issue on why people don't stack PPP and CO: diminishing return.

People will no longer run Serration on weapons with decent CC since if x weapon can crit reliably *look at Blood Rush and Kuva Bramma*, which leave Serration become niche for weapons that can't crit. Because running Serration is no longer optimal for crit weapons, which make going for something like Primed Bane of Grineer be easier or whatever multiplicative opportunity costs still make weapon damage become insane, especially vs nerfed enemies' EHP.

Old case similar happened before with from old CO exist (exponential scaling total damage multiplier) vs. enemies' old EHP scaling in which DE fixed the sheer discrepancy and sure, more loadouts are more viable to longer runs, but effectively it makes the enemy squishier in the end to this day.

Proposed change like this would promote more strict meta build since maybe 2 weeks after it goes live, people would go "WTF r u running both Serration and Vital Sense together on Acceltra? Fkin use a faction mod or firestorm for big KPS".

Good idea to fix discrepancies, but do it in a way that respect build variety and NOT making enemies be squishier than before as DE done so. Of course I don't like bullet sponge either, but there is a fkin problem when a Moa Demolyst of lvl 9999 die in merely 6 seconds solo with a Telos Boltace with Shattering Impact and a primer Kuva Nukor (melees have no downtime of DPS and being AOE and all). God forbids a Tigris Prime ("heavy" hitting shotgun that is narrow-targeted, mid-short range, and cucked by DPS downtime) EVER hope to achieve what melees can do for IMO that is the bigger issue right now.

People not stacking PPP and CO was a positive change for build variety. Warframe modding is just an exercise in how many different multipliers you can fit into 8 slots. Weapons that don't have the stats to take advantage of different multipliers are objectively trash.

It's in the name of squishing the variance of player damage and damage types so DE doesn't need to resort to Voodoo Mathematics under the hood like DPS caps, DPS based Damage Reduction and arbitrary Status immunity. 

Cut down on the multipliers and just scale enemy health as needed.

Above a damage multiplier and enemies are one shot. Below a damage multiplier and enemies are sponges. 

There are too many things that are multiplicative with one another and the best damage types are the ones that circumvent the enemy health multiplier called armor.

Resistances are irrelevant in the face of armor scaling.

Viral+Slash is the best. Weapons that can't use that combo are objectively second tier.

Corrosive and Radiation are niche use against armored status immune enemies.

The other damage types don't matter because unarmored enemies are easily powered through by pure damage multipliers. 

Serration becoming niche is a good thing. As it exists right now, there's no reason not to run it outside of niche setups where you get Base Damage elsewhere via Chroma or Arcanes. Faction mods becoming more relevant is at least a step in modding variety.

Normalize player damage and damage types. Normalize enemy eHP. When the dust settles, instead of adjusting damage types, armor scaling, giving enemies arbitrary invincibility phases, damage caps, DPS based Damage Reduction, all that remain will be an enemy HP dial.

Also, there are other enemies besides Grineer. Getting rid of our damage multipliers will make Corpus and Infested a lot more substantial.

Edited by DealerOfAbsolutes
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