Homing projectiles (e.g. Wisp's Breach Surge) should go through walls

[quxier]

Projectiles like Wisp's Breach surge shoot walls or ceilings even when enemies are nearby.

Making it go through wall (like Zenith's infinite Punchthrough) up to N meters would make it more usable. Where N is number currently used for those things.

 

Abilities/things with Homing projectiles:

- Wisp Breach surge

- Pax seeker

- Oberon's Smite (?)

 

[Leqesai]

Warframe has slowly been evolving away from cheap LOS piercing attacks from effects like you're describing. There have remained a few that bypass obstacles but I wouldn't hold my breath on this. LOS restrictions exist for a reason. If anything, MORE weapons/abilities need restricted by LOS.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

Warframe has slowly been evolving away from cheap LOS piercing attacks from effects like you're describing. There have remained a few that bypass obstacles but I wouldn't hold my breath on this. LOS restrictions exist for a reason. If anything, MORE weapons/abilities need restricted by LOS.

Could you explain more? Because I don't get what's so good at projectiles hitting walls/ceilings?

[Leqesai]

13 minutes ago, quxier said:

Could you explain more? Because I don't get what's so good at projectiles hitting walls/ceilings?

It isn't a matter of it being a good/bad thing. It is a matter of what the developers intend with the mechanics they've designed. Of course piercing LOS is more effective. It is also not how they appear to want to do things.

[Drachnyn]

Breach surge suffers immensly from basically being restricted by LoS twice, pax seeker is dead in most corridors aswell. I wasnt aware smite's things can crash into wall aswell, i havent used that ability a lot.

They shouldnt be nullified completely by the environment so I agree.

[Lutesque]

I'd rather you created a Thread about Enemies hiding behind walls being. problem rather than Reworking a Warframe to bandaid a Symptom....

[Tiltskillet]

I don't know about Pax Seeker or Smite, but Breach Surge is uh, pretty ok as is.

Generally speaking, we have an environment not just for something to look at, but something to deal with.   So some things are better in open areas than otherwise, or have to be used more carefully. Much like aimed abilities and weapons do wherever they are used.   So even in cases where homing projectiles are on the weak side, I'd be at least as inclined to adjust their stats or improve their homing (if possible) rather than outright ignore the environment.

2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

I'd rather you created a Thread about Enemies hiding behind walls being. problem

C'mon Lutesque, the life of Grineer Grunt #252922cx is pretty rough already without taking away the little bit of cover that gives him about 4ms longer survival time. 😄

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

4 hours ago, Leqesai said:

 If anything, MORE weapons/abilities need restricted by LOS.

Yeah no. There’s a lot of abilities of recent frames who’s LoS restrictions actually hinder those abilities effectiveness to the point that it’s debatable over whether or not to even use them.

Case in point Khoras whipclaw and its current inability to hit what’s right in front of it.

[PsiWarp]

Punchthrough sure, but LOS remains. Let the sparks acquire a target as long as they are still in flight.

[quxier]

9 hours ago, Leqesai said:

It is a matter of what the developers intend with the mechanics they've designed. Of course piercing LOS is more effective. It is also not how they appear to want to do things.

So you are saying that they DON'T WANT projectiles to hit enemies? And they won't change that?

9 hours ago, Lutesque said:

I'd rather you created a Thread about Enemies hiding behind walls being. problem rather than Reworking a Warframe to bandaid a Symptom....

Enemies would have to stand around you without any obstacles between you an enemy.

So it's not "bandaid a symptom" in 100%.

6 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Generally speaking, we have an environment not just for something to look at, but something to deal with.   So some things are better in open areas than otherwise, or have to be used more carefully. Much like aimed abilities and weapons do wherever they are used.   So even in cases where homing projectiles are on the weak side, I'd be at least as inclined to adjust their stats or improve their homing (if possible) rather than outright ignore the environment.

If they could improve homing thing then I would be happy. However I don't think it's easily possible.

4 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

Punchthrough sure, but LOS remains. Let the sparks acquire a target as long as they are still in flight.

How would it work? If a projectile need to see (LOS) then PT is useless.

[PsiWarp]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

How would it work? If a projectile need to see (LOS) then PT is useless.

Notice how surge sparks don't always travel in a straight line? If it has punchthrough, it could pass through the ceiling and curve back down where an enemy is in the open, therefore LOS is then established, so you'll get your wish of more consistent spark attacks without necessarily bombing everything through walls.

[Andele3025]

Id make the argument that a:  teleport blind/aoe cc that also has a radiation type damage amp pseudo aoe propagator WITH massive combo potential that only has a mid cost (aka a cheap ability for its effect scale) doesnt exactly need a extra buff that would just reduce its effective skill ceiling/the very lowest positioning thought for full effectiveness, but that might just be me.

[_Anise_]

18 hours ago, quxier said:

Could you explain more? Because I don't get what's so good at projectiles hitting walls/ceilings?

on the real orphix event, people were bringing the archgun that could shoot through walls because it was easier to the point of being near required, you could do it in half the time and idn't need to run around like an idiot looking for the target!

so people use the thing that shoots through walls as the goto because its better than the ones that don't...

something like that ?

[quxier]

8 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

Notice how surge sparks don't always travel in a straight line? If it has punchthrough, it could pass through the ceiling and curve back down where an enemy is in the open, therefore LOS is then established, so you'll get your wish of more consistent spark attacks without necessarily bombing everything through walls.

Sounds fine on paper however would projectiles "come back from ceilings/walls"? I mean if a projectile goes through ceiling then they don't have LOS (unless ceilings are invisible for projectiles or something). If a projectile goes through some obstacle (no ceiling) then it still can miss some cases.

In my opinion such solution would still require AI change.

38 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

on the real orphix event, people were bringing the archgun that could shoot through walls because it was easier to the point of being near required, you could do it in half the time and idn't need to run around like an idiot looking for the target!

so people use the thing that shoots through walls as the goto because its better than the ones that don't...

something like that ?

Ok, so you are afraid that projectiles would go through walls and kills "effortlessly" things? Well, that's the point of "homing" part of those abilities/arcanes. Suuure... projectiles doesn't have to have near infinite range.

Now it has some 10 or something meters after that its homing function is deactivated.

[_Anise_]

Just now, quxier said:

Ok, so you are afraid that projectiles would go through walls and kills "effortlessly" things? Well, that's the point of "homing" part of those abilities/arcanes. Suuure... projectiles doesn't have to have near infinite range.

Now it has some 10 or something meters after that its homing function is deactivated.

No I am saying if you make something too good, homing missiles going through walls it might become the meta since breach can be put on any frame then DE might just baseline nerf breach damage or something stupid like that.

 

corrupt a wish: your breach can now go through walls, but they deal a fraction of the damage.

[Leqesai]

16 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

No I am saying if you make something too good, homing missiles going through walls it might become the meta since breach can be put on any frame

Honestly i think suggestions like having breach bypass LOS are specifically formulated from the idea that they would be really good if they could bypass LOS and pierce walls. 

I mean... it hasnt even been that long since marked for death was nerfed for the exact reason why homing projectiles bypassing LOS would be an issue.

Anyone with any time in the game can see how stupidly broken breach would be if it could bypass LOS. I feel like the TC is trying to slip one by the devs.

[Lutesque]

18 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

C'mon Lutesque, the life of Grineer Grunt #252922cx is pretty rough already without taking away the little bit of cover that gives him about 4ms longer survival time. 😄

He must Suffer for his Cowardice !! 😈

11 hours ago, quxier said:

Enemies would have to stand around you without any obstacles between you an enemy.

So it's not "bandaid a symptom" in 100%.

I see nothing wrong with that.... Remove all Obstacles 😈 !!!

 

[quxier]

19 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

No I am saying if you make something too good, homing missiles going through walls it might become the meta since breach can be put on any frame then DE might just baseline nerf breach damage or something stupid like that.

18 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Honestly i think suggestions like having breach bypass LOS are specifically formulated from the idea that they would be really good if they could bypass LOS and pierce walls. 

I mean... it hasnt even been that long since marked for death was nerfed for the exact reason why homing projectiles bypassing LOS would be an issue.

Anyone with any time in the game can see how stupidly broken breach would be if it could bypass LOS. I feel like the TC is trying to slip one by the devs.

Make sense... I don't like nerfs.

19 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

corrupt a wish: your breach can now go through walls, but they deal a fraction of the damage.

Would it fix the problem? If "After damage" were low it would make change useless. If "after damage" is too high it wouldn't be too high (hence nerf would come).

I don't know if something like "meters traveled through obstacles" would decrease damage.

On other hand static damage based on distance between source and a projectile might be nerf... what do you think?

[f0ba]

On 2021-04-03 at 5:14 PM, quxier said:

Could you explain more? Because I don't get what's so good at projectiles hitting walls/ceilings?

Basically the same shabang with World on Fire becoming Inferno, or the change to Blade Storm. There are a some abilities I found LOS being detrimental to their supposed playstyle, but Breach Surge isn't one of those abilities.