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There is no reason to put Oberon and Ash in Railjack


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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

What do you expect them to do? Create New Rewards to put in the game mode instead?

Recycling existing Warframes into it is less work.

 

sarcasm ends

You know what's even less work than rewriting decades old code into new content. Adding new code into new content. Less spaghetti, less frustration. Everybody wins. But DE has devolved to taking lessons from AAA devs..

 

Also remember those necramech mods from the previous event. IT sure would be nice to put those currently inaccesible mods into the new game mode that is in dire need of new stuff.

Edited by (NSW)Dangruff
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A completely out-there, totally bonkers idea: Put warframes into Railjack that are specifically designed for railjack missions thanks to their various defensive, mobility, and team-boosting abilities.

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On 2021-04-05 at 11:17 PM, (NSW)Dangruff said:

You know what's even less work than rewriting decades old code into new content. Adding new code into new content. Less spaghetti, less frustration. Everybody wins. But DE has devolved to taking lessons from AAA devs..

 

Also remember those necramech mods from the previous event. IT sure would be nice to put those currently inaccesible mods into the new game mode that is in dire need of new stuff.

You mean Operation: Orphix Venom? Maybe it's just me, but doesn't Venus Proxima's Vesper Straight provide those exclusive mods? It is an Orphix mission, after all.

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3 minutes ago, Brinstar7777 said:

You mean Operation: Orphix Venom? Maybe it's just me, but doesn't Venus Proxima's Vesper Straight provide those exclusive mods? It is an Orphix mission, after all.

Nope those mod are currently unobtainable since orphix venom went away. you can search the page with all the drop for any of the ones added with orphix venom and wont get any result.

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On 2021-04-05 at 4:12 AM, (NSW)Dangruff said:

It is incredibly unreasonable and petty to clog up an already niche game mode with rewards from the main game content. All you're doing is spiting at new players who now have less options in getting a decent crutch frame. And wasting old players time by getting a fodder part that they've already accumulated over a thousand time, when they could have gotten new items that actually related to the game mode itself. IE archwing mods, weapon parts, etc.

 

 

 

On 2021-04-05 at 4:12 AM, (NSW)Dangruff said:

It is incredibly unreasonable and petty to clog up an already niche game mode with rewards from the main game content. All you're doing is spiting at new players who now have less options in getting a decent crutch frame. And wasting old players time by getting a fodder part that they've already accumulated over a thousand time, when they could have gotten new items that actually related to the game mode itself. IE archwing mods, weapon parts, etc.

 

 

I do not see this as a problem in the long run. In my opinion, DE did put more thought to this than you realize. 

This sudden move to put both frame at a pretty high bar to access, but they are not in the meta right now, and i doubt new player would actively seeking the vanilla version out with all the prime parts being so low in plat. If they are farming them for subsuming, then those player are not so new anymore, and both Ash and Oberon turn out to have pretty good subsuming ability that would justify the farm for them when you no longer new, so it work out nicely in the grand scheme.

Other than that, this change won't affect much player at the present because everyone already swimming in thousands of Oberon parts. and the day when new player install the game today actually need to farm oberon or ash, i expect DE would have enough time to flesh out RJ enough to be comfortably get them as a side reward while we trying to get something else.  (though i do wish it wasn't a defense rot C thing, that one suck)

 

 

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On 2021-04-04 at 2:42 PM, RazerXPrime said:

Imagine moving Khora or Wisp to Conclave.

Isn't it kind of the same and all relative though?  If you don't like playing Sanctuary Onslaught, you're not gonna have fun getting Khora.  If you don't like playing Ropapalyst, you're not gonna have fun getting Wisp.  Most Warframes are locked behind specific content, it's just a matter of what that content is.

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1 minute ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Isn't it kind of the same and all relative though?  If you don't like playing Sanctuary Onslaught, you're not gonna have fun getting Khora.  If you don't like playing Ropapalyst, you're not gonna have fun getting Wisp.  Most Warframes are locked behind specific content, it's just a matter of what that content is.

It's only the same to those people that think flying around in a spaceship and shooting fighters and crewships is the same as running around with a gun and a sword.

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6 hours ago, FireSegment said:

 

I do not see this as a problem in the long run. In my opinion, DE did put more thought to this than you realize. 

This sudden move to put both frame at a pretty high bar to access, but they are not in the meta right now, and i doubt new player would actively seeking the vanilla version out with all the prime parts being so low in plat. If they are farming them for subsuming, then those player are not so new anymore, and both Ash and Oberon turn out to have pretty good subsuming ability that would justify the farm for them when you no longer new, so it work out nicely in the grand scheme.

Other than that, this change won't affect much player at the present because everyone already swimming in thousands of Oberon parts. and the day when new player install the game today actually need to farm oberon or ash, i expect DE would have enough time to flesh out RJ enough to be comfortably get them as a side reward while we trying to get something else.  (though i do wish it wasn't a defense rot C thing, that one suck)

 

 

I think I disagree with almost everything you said here.

As a new player last year, I did not seek out Oberon parts, but they came often.  I started with Volt, and my first 2 built frames were Rhino and Oberon.  Oberon was BY FAR the more useful of the two, considering how empty the nodes are, early on, of other players.  Either would have been an upgrade early on with no mods, but Oberon made things much easier to solo than Rhino did.  He's still my 3rd most played frame (behind Wisp and Volt).

No new player I talk to actively engages with buying parts from other players via plat, unless they got started through someone they knew that already played.  The big block early on is the fact that the in-game trading systems are horrible, so using warframe market is needed.  New players simply don't know that until they're told about it.

Personally, I hate defense missions.  I think they are easily the most boring in the game.  Others may be more frustrating (defection, etc), but defenses are just dull.  Putting anything at 20 waves, 10% is going to far, IMO.  Putting defense missions in Railjack was a bad decision.  Putting them on the worst defense map made it even worse.  Putting new player friendly frame parts behind end-game Railjack nodes is moronic. 

This change doesn't affect me.  I haven't used Oberon forever.  I leveled Ash to 30 and moved on.  I have a 2nd Oberon waiting to be infected to feed to Helminth.  I'll subsume my current Ash once Ash Prime rolls around again.  I still think it's a horrible change simply because they are not meta, and are new player friendly frames (especially Oberon).

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, FireSegment said:

 

I do not see this as a problem in the long run. In my opinion, DE did put more thought to this than you realize. 

This sudden move to put both frame at a pretty high bar to access, but they are not in the meta right now, and i doubt new player would actively seeking the vanilla version out with all the prime parts being so low in plat. If they are farming them for subsuming, then those player are not so new anymore, and both Ash and Oberon turn out to have pretty good subsuming ability that would justify the farm for them when you no longer new, so it work out nicely in the grand scheme.

Other than that, this change won't affect much player at the present because everyone already swimming in thousands of Oberon parts. and the day when new player install the game today actually need to farm oberon or ash, i expect DE would have enough time to flesh out RJ enough to be comfortably get them as a side reward while we trying to get something else.  (though i do wish it wasn't a defense rot C thing, that one suck)

 

 

Lack of foresight, by the devs, and their ardent supporters. Are the reason why this game has so many longstanding flaws and bugs that have not been remedied for years. This move is bonkers illogical, and it shows when there has been no proper positive argument towards the moving of oberon and ash drop location. As it been mentioned numerious times. This benefits no one at all. New players have less options regarding easy frames, and vets have to deal with more bloat garbage as rewards in an already frustratingly slow and tedious game mode. Further cementing accusations that DE does not care, nor respect it's player time.

Quote

Other than that, this change won't affect much player at the present because everyone already swimming in thousands of Oberon parts. and the day when new player install the game today actually need to farm oberon or ash, i expect DE would have enough time to flesh out RJ enough to be comfortably get them as a side reward while we trying to get something else.  (though i do wish it wasn't a defense rot C thing, that one suck)

Defection, infested salvage, and granum says hi.

Edited by (NSW)Dangruff
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As someone who enjoys it, when things make sense lore wise, I am a bit torn on the topic

Removing Ash from the Manic drop tables feels kinda weird. With the old farming method it at least made a bit of sense; Manics become invisible, Ash is supposed to be a stealthy Ninja. But then again, I never wanted to farm him, because I don't like going after one specific type of enemy.

Oberon...always felt a bit weird. I didn't get why he dropped from Eximus units. It also made him feel a bit 'discounted', because you just got him as a 'side drop'. I don't mind him being put into Railjack, but it doesn't make much more sense.

Adding new Warframes to the mode, especially Sevagoth, who seems to be thematically connected with Railjack, sounds good. Railjack is not my favourite game mode, but the players who enjoy it deserve some unique drops as well.

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2 minutes ago, Sinekanter said:

As someone who enjoys it, when things make sense lore wise, I am a bit torn on the topic

Removing Ash from the Manic drop tables feels kinda weird. With the old farming method it at least made a bit of sense; Manics become invisible, Ash is supposed to be a stealthy Ninja. But then again, I never wanted to farm him, because I don't like going after one specific type of enemy.

Oberon...always felt a bit weird. I didn't get why he dropped from Eximus units. It also made him feel a bit 'discounted', because you just got him as a 'side drop'. I don't mind him being put into Railjack, but it doesn't make much more sense.

Adding new Warframes to the mode, especially Sevagoth, who seems to be thematically connected with Railjack, sounds good. Railjack is not my favourite game mode, but the players who enjoy it deserve some unique drops as well.

What the heck even discounted means? You get bulk nyx parts from farming mutagen, and no one bats an eye. It'd be fine if it was the new warframe being put into ther.e But it's not. This horrible decision that needs reverting. We want new content. Not bloat.

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vor 6 Minuten schrieb (NSW)Dangruff:

What the heck even discounted means? You get bulk nyx parts from farming mutagen, and no one bats an eye. It'd be fine if it was the new warframe being put into ther.e But it's not. This horrible decision that needs reverting. We want new content. Not bloat.

'Discounted' means, that it doesn't feel like anything special to get his parts. 'Oh, there is another Oberon part'. And that it feels the devs didn't put a lot of thought into the initial placement of his parts. Maybe they did. Idk.

Also, would you have read my post thoroughly, you would have seen that I said that I am also torn on the topic. I personally don't mind the change, but I don't understand it either. If you are upset that I am not upset or enraged about a change, that is your problem.

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1 minute ago, Sinekanter said:

'Discounted' means, that it doesn't feel like anything special to get his parts. 'Oh, there is another Oberon part'. And that it feels the devs didn't put a lot of thought into the initial placement of his parts. Maybe they did. Idk.

Also, would you have read my post thoroughly, you would have seen that I said that I am also torn on the topic. I personally don't mind the change, but I don't understand it either. If you are upset that I am not upset or enraged about a change, that is your problem.

And there was no complaint about it. Because Free credit, is always welcome. The DEvs have not had a good track record of putting new frames in reasonable or fitting places to farm for them, and that's by design to force ppl to shell plat for them. And wtf even is that last part supposed to be about?

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb (NSW)Dangruff:

And there was no complaint about it. Because Free credit, is always welcome. The DEvs have not had a good track record of putting new frames in reasonable or fitting places to farm for them, and that's by design to force ppl to shell plat for them. And wtf even is that last part supposed to be about?

I specifically stated my opinion as someone who likes things to make sense lore-wise. Not based on gameplay. I offered a different point of view to the situation.

Yes, other Warframes are also not placed perfectly, but this thread is specifically talking about Oberon and Ash.

And the last part was about you coming across as aggressive and being upset about me saying that I didn't mind the changes. Also, nearly every single post you have made so far seems to be about this very topic, so it does come across as you being overly upset.

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1 hour ago, Sinekanter said:

I specifically stated my opinion as someone who likes things to make sense lore-wise. Not based on gameplay. I offered a different point of view to the situation.

Yes, other Warframes are also not placed perfectly, but this thread is specifically talking about Oberon and Ash.

And the last part was about you coming across as aggressive and being upset about me saying that I didn't mind the changes. Also, nearly every single post you have made so far seems to be about this very topic, so it does come across as you being overly upset.

Your pov is a fencesitter we get it.

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vor 20 Minuten schrieb (NSW)Dangruff:

Your pov is a fencesitter we get it.

No, my pov is, that I don't mind the changes and that they don't have to be undone. You don't have to have a onesided opinion on something as unimportant as a video game. You are even allowed to be uncertain about changes, as I implied when I said that I was torn on them.

And please, don't try to tell me what my POV is, I analyse mine and other people's POVs for a living. 

You on the other hand seem to take this whole thing way too serious, judging by how you voice your opinions. This isn't politics where not voicing an opinion can get people killed.

And if you had really read my comment without getting angry at me using the word discounted, you would have seen that I partially agree with you, that the changes don't really make sense, even lore-wise, especially for Ash. 

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48 minutes ago, Sinekanter said:

No, my pov is, that I don't mind the changes and that they don't have to be undone. You don't have to have a onesided opinion on something as unimportant as a video game. You are even allowed to be uncertain about changes, as I implied when I said that I was torn on them.

And please, don't try to tell me what my POV is, I analyse mine and other people's POVs for a living. 

You on the other hand seem to take this whole thing way too serious, judging by how you voice your opinions. This isn't politics where not voicing an opinion can get people killed.

And if you had really read my comment without getting angry at me using the word discounted, you would have seen that I partially agree with you, that the changes don't really make sense, even lore-wise, especially for Ash. 

And our POV is this is an illogical change, and actually does harm the game. Put your shoes into other people's perspective, specifically the newbies. And the disgruntled vets. Also we are allowed to voice our displeasure in the forum. It's feedback after all. 

Lastly, chill. you are jumping the shark. We don't care about what you do for a living, or the real world. Stop bringing useless fluff into here. Stay on topic.

 

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vor 11 Minuten schrieb (NSW)Dangruff:

And our POV is this is an illogical change, and actually does harm the game. Put your shoes into other people's perspective, specifically the newbies. And the disgruntled vets. Also we are allowed to voice our displeasure in the forum. It's feedback after all. 

Lastly, chill. you are jumping the shark. We don't care about what you do for a living, or the real world. Stop bringing useless fluff into here. Stay on topic.

 

Did I say that you are not allowed ro voice your opinion? I did voice my opinion and you immediately became aggressive. I don't see how me voicing my opinion was silencing yours.

I was in the shoes of a newer player not too long ago. And I never had the feeling that you needed a specific Warframe to progress. I understand others might, but the whole point of my comment was:'changes don't make sense, even lore-wise, but Oberon does not bother me as much, because lore wise his placement never really seemed to make sense anyways'.

I was agreeing with you (with some nuances; I don't think it will have that much of an impact on newer players, I see it more as an inconvenience than a real problem) from another perspective, because just as you apparently care about the impact it will have on newer players, I care about the lore and design of the game and the changes break the immersion for me to a degree. 

However, I should have explained myself better, writing 'I don't mind the changes as much' would have been more accurate, probably. So, I apologize for that.

TLDR: I agree that the drop table changes are weird and unfitting; Ash should have stayed where he was (or should have gotten a different solution) and Oberon would be better somewhere else as well, eventhough I don't think his former drop location was perfect. Due to personal experiences I don't think it will affect newer players as much. But only time will tell (and I wonder if new players that don't know the benefits of Oberon thanks to the wiki, etc. would actually 'miss' him or would just find other solutions on their own).

We agree on the point that adding new Warframes to Railjack is fine, and would have been the better solution (if I interprete your point about 'bloat' correctly).

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Just now, Sinekanter said:

Did I say that you are not allowed ro voice your opinion? I did voice my opinion and you immediately became aggressive. I don't see how me voicing my opinion was silencing yours.

I was in the shoes of a newer player not too long ago. And I never had the feeling that you needed a specific Warframe to progress. I understand others might, but the whole point of my comment was:'changes don't make sense, even lore-wise, but Oberon does not bother me as much, because lore wise his placement never really seemed to make sense anyways'.

I was agreeing with you (with some nuances; I don't think it will have that much of an impact on newer players, I see it more as an inconvenience than a real problem) from another perspective, because just as you apparently care about the impact it will have on newer players, I care about the lore and design of the game and the changes break the immersion for me to a degree. 

However, I should have explained myself better, writing 'I don't mind the changes as much' would have been more accurate, probably. So, I apologize for that.

TLDR: I agree that the drop table changes are weird and unfitting; Ash should have stayed where he was (or should have gotten a different solution) and Oberon would be better somewhere else as well, eventhough I don't think his former drop location was perfect. Due to personal experiences I don't think it will affect newer players as much. But only time will tell (and I wonder if new players that don't know the benefits of Oberon thanks to the wiki, etc. would actually 'miss' him or would just find other solutions on their own).

We agree on the point that adding new Warframes to Railjack is fine, and would have been the better solution (if I interprete your point about 'bloat' correctly).

 

Quote

You on the other hand seem to take this whole thing way too serious, judging by how you voice your opinions. This isn't politics where not voicing an opinion can get people killed.

You are a bit too agitated. calm down.

tl;dr because it's getting annoying repeating this. 'More options are great, and free stuff is always good. Everybody happy. Now we less options, and no more free cred coupon for those rainydays. Oh and your gacha pulls are now filled with 1 stars.

New players are gonna be less enthused once they hear horror stories like this. Why do you think anthem deleting their lootcave scared off potential players that much? As fpr bloat. I'll let this chap explain our greivances

 

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5 hours ago, Wheelhouser said:

I think I disagree with almost everything you said here.

As a new player last year, I did not seek out Oberon parts, but they came often.  I started with Volt, and my first 2 built frames were Rhino and Oberon.  Oberon was BY FAR the more useful of the two, considering how empty the nodes are, early on, of other players.  Either would have been an upgrade early on with no mods, but Oberon made things much easier to solo than Rhino did.  He's still my 3rd most played frame (behind Wisp and Volt).

No new player I talk to actively engages with buying parts from other players via plat, unless they got started through someone they knew that already played.  The big block early on is the fact that the in-game trading systems are horrible, so using warframe market is needed.  New players simply don't know that until they're told about it.

Personally, I hate defense missions.  I think they are easily the most boring in the game.  Others may be more frustrating (defection, etc), but defenses are just dull.  Putting anything at 20 waves, 10% is going to far, IMO.  Putting defense missions in Railjack was a bad decision.  Putting them on the worst defense map made it even worse.  Putting new player friendly frame parts behind end-game Railjack nodes is moronic. 

This change doesn't affect me.  I haven't used Oberon forever.  I leveled Ash to 30 and moved on.  I have a 2nd Oberon waiting to be infected to feed to Helminth.  I'll subsume my current Ash once Ash Prime rolls around again.  I still think it's a horrible change simply because they are not meta, and are new player friendly frames (especially Oberon).

I have to admit that i have bias that make the way i view new player experience is not accurate by a long shot. Being a new player back at 2016 and now isn't the same thing after all.

Yet, the perspective you gave me so far only added the point that Oberon is much more valuable than his non-existent grind effort before the change. From the dev perspective, he should be a harder frame to get than ... say ... hydroid for example, don't you think? 

And i did say that i also hate a frame reward being put in rot C defense. The only possible silver lining from that is they might add some other thing that make RJ def worth grinding in the future since RJ still not solidify what kind of reward are to be expected from it. (like somehow became a new hydron for example, but that's too hopeful)

4 hours ago, (NSW)Dangruff said:

Lack of foresight, by the devs, and their ardent supporters. Are the reason why this game has so many longstanding flaws and bugs that have not been remedied for years. This move is bonkers illogical, and it shows when there has been no proper positive argument towards the moving of oberon and ash drop location. As it been mentioned numerious times. This benefits no one at all. New players have less options regarding easy frames, and vets have to deal with more bloat garbage as rewards in an already frustratingly slow and tedious game mode. Further cementing accusations that DE does not care, nor respect it's player time.

Defection, infested salvage, and granum says hi.

.... i just freaking made an positive argument about this change, in the part that you quoted. May be actually read the thing you quote and respond to it if you decided to quote it in the first place instead of going on a tantrum?

DE are bad at mission type design, there's just no beating around the bush around this. The why and how of it is an entirely different topic. But defection, infested salvage, and granum do not have the benefit of being debut in two tennocon and 3 years of development sunk into it.

 

 

 

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb (NSW)Dangruff:

 

You are a bit too agitated. calm down.

tl;dr because it's getting annoying repeating this. 'More options are great, and free stuff is always good. Everybody happy. Now we less options, and no more free cred coupon for those rainydays. Oh and your gacha pulls are now filled with 1 stars.

New players are gonna be less enthused once they hear horror stories like this. Why do you think anthem deleting their lootcave scared off potential players that much? As fpr bloat. I'll let this chap explain our greivances

 

I actually am calm, a bit tired (physically, not of the discussion). I am sorry if I come across as agitated.

I guess, if you show them that video, they will definitely be turned off by the game. It has an extremely negative (and a bit click-baity) title. I have my own grievances with the youtube Warframe community, but they don't belong in this discussion.

I understand your concern, but I am wondering if a player, who hasn't been treated to youtube videos and negative opinions would really miss the content that has been made harder to access for them. They won't know what an Oberon is, what makes him special, how drop tables work/worked, so they might just play the game and won't be bothered by it. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Sinekanter said:

I actually am calm, a bit tired (physically, not of the discussion). I am sorry if I come across as agitated.

I guess, if you show them that video, they will definitely be turned off by the game. It has an extremely negative (and a bit click-baity) title. I have my own grievances with the youtube Warframe community, but they don't belong in this discussion.

I understand your concern, but I am wondering if a player, who hasn't been treated to youtube videos and negative opinions would really miss the content that has been made harder to access for them. They won't know what an Oberon is, what makes him special, how drop tables work/worked, so they might just play the game and won't be bothered by it. 

Nearly impossible. Youtube is just too prevalent. Most people will hear about warframe occasionally compared and mentioned in any game video regarding looter shooter or grind. Also one of the bigger turn offs for new payers here is how this game just throws you off the deep end as soon as soon as you finish the tutorial mission. And then your own. And this game is so bad with explaining it's own basic mechanics, some people are surprised teching exist in the game. So anyways newbies will eventually have to go to the wiki themselves to learn the ropes. And they will unintentionally delve deep into the history of the games. It's in the patch notes after all. Or they just go to youtube and the comment section alone will tell how bad it is now.

Edited by (NSW)Dangruff
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9 hours ago, FireSegment said:

I have to admit that i have bias that make the way i view new player experience is not accurate by a long shot. Being a new player back at 2016 and now isn't the same thing after all.

Yet, the perspective you gave me so far only added the point that Oberon is much more valuable than his non-existent grind effort before the change. From the dev perspective, he should be a harder frame to get than ... say ... hydroid for example, don't you think? 

And i did say that i also hate a frame reward being put in rot C defense. The only possible silver lining from that is they might add some other thing that make RJ def worth grinding in the future since RJ still not solidify what kind of reward are to be expected from it. (like somehow became a new hydron for example, but that's too hopeful)

.... i just freaking made an positive argument about this change, in the part that you quoted. May be actually read the thing you quote and respond to it if you decided to quote it in the first place instead of going on a tantrum?

DE are bad at mission type design, there's just no beating around the bush around this. The why and how of it is an entirely different topic. But defection, infested salvage, and granum do not have the benefit of being debut in two tennocon and 3 years of development sunk into it.

 

 

 

A weak argument justifying bad decision. And it doesn't matter if those three mission types never got the big screen. They exist as grim reminder to what DE does with game modes like a kid does with a toy they're bored with.

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The issue isn't adding them to railjack or not, it's how DE goes about doing drops for things like this. Warframe part drops should not be taking up any main rotation drop table slots, they should all be a bonus that can drop on-top of regular rotation rewards or such. We already have the "Bonus Rewards" part implemented for Open Worlds and Railjack missions, it could easily be implemented for regular content as well. This prevents diluting the drop tables, and then of course Ash and Oberon already were fine with how they dropped before. Ash dropping from a specific unique enemy that can be farmed under certain circumstances that are easily replicable, and Oberon is the same. This would all be very healthy design in my unprofessional opinion.

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