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Corpus Proxima & The New Railjack: Hotfix 29.10.10


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14 hours ago, BesucherPrime said:

The trendline is a model in itself trying to explain the playerbase over time.

First of all, I'd say you have the motivation to become excellent at this, so let me give you some input going further with your data model:

If you have a model explaining part of the data, here 69%, you can continue on that model by refining it until you reach something as close as possible to 100%. I learnt that the old way without computers, because a long time ago my thesis father was a calculator and pen nerdo, so I personally still do modelling often by making graphs and looking for similarities in other data I find relevant (and finding new hypothesis). It is actually quite easy in principle: Assume you have data that goes 1,2,3,4,5 and found a time trend of x - If you divide your data by your findings you'll get new data of 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 with no further variance. The model (time is x) perfectly describes your data, as we can no longer find any variables to better describe the data. Welcome to the visual world of modelling in 2D. 

With less in line data, that accounts in your case for 31% of your made data, you now get a new graph that you could refine another line netting a quadratic time trend (to as many power to your x as you may find). Once there is no more explanation possible with time (r2 is not getting better the more lines or whatever you throw at it), you'll need to throw in other data that resembles what you have left over and has some kind of link to it that is still unknown, like for example amplified or reduced marketing spending lagged by a week/a month or whatever (following the hypothesis that marketing spending increase sales e.g. player base here). The problem is finding and identifying relevant data.

When you are using the straight relationship between X and Y for graphical purposes, unconnected to any explanation or theory, it is not a actually a model. If someone were to claim that time (alone) explains the increase of the playerbase, it would be a model (of sorts). Without such a claim it is only a (very) basic statistic, the change over time smoothed out as a straight line. 

I have no motivation whatsoever of becoming "excellent", though I appreciate your reasonable and overall correct explanation. Once upon a time I designed and tested new multivariate methods (for research) and in my current work I evaluate quite complex data regularly (including at meta-level: evaluating expert evaluations of such data). One important aspect of such evaluations is checking for errors arising from what could be summed up as either "fitting your theory to your result" or "fitting your result to your theory". Though the problems generally arise from quite different settings and have a different logical background, they are (surprisingly) common. The first type mostly comes from "scientific results", and is as simple as someone first analyzing existing relationships in the data, then re-formulating the hypothesis/theory according to the results and then testing and "proving" the new hypothesis using the same data set (which in practical terms entails running standard a priori statistical testing that assumes no such prior adaptation has occurred, which makes it a lot easier to reach 0.99 or 0.95 significance). The other type is the time-proven method of trying to influence policy with ("carefully selected") data, where someone starts with the result they want and then select and manipulate the data to produce the "proof".

Without getting into specifics, let's just say that the kindergarden versions of both show up on this forum. One "group" doing this time after time after time are players with (very) strong feelings about how bad the game or DE is, but so unsecure in their convictions that they try to buff it with outlandish claims about "the community" and the "playerbase" and how it is "proven" by this or that. Now, if the proof in question would be scientifically and logically sound I would be the first to accept it. But after 4 years of lies and misrepresentation and an overall total disregard for logic, facts and science, and this on a level affecting the whole globe (and empowering like-minded idiots all over the planet) I might be a bit extra allergic to the same type of flawed argumentation and unproven theories showing up on the forum.

To sum it up you put the finger pretty well on all this: there has to be a (logical) hypothesis plus relevant data to prove (or disprove) it. The statistical methods can be insanely complex (due to the current computing power available) but logically and structurally it is just basic scientific philosophy (as long as you leave Kant, Kuhn & co out of it). A basic framework and basic rules millions of researchers and analysts are following on a daily basis all over the planet.

Edited by Graavarg
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  • Being host of 4 member party on deimos and have norma-high priority to warframe process give mouase lags + mouse-to-slow(shuttering) after 1 hour game play 
      Fix is - set priority (below normal) wich give free mouse but it low loading speed of party members
  • dry dock is not optimized and overloaded with decorations in the dojo. It renders all space on the railjack settings menu = so :
    1. fps down
    2. menu lags
    3. mouse lags
    4. mouse go slow(shuttering) like in paragraph 1 (until set below normal piority)
  • liset-arklight skin not optimized

 

  • Total game fps depends on orbiter scins/decorations and even bacis animation
  • Total game fps depends on ship-loading-screen skins (liset-arklight)
  • Total game fps depends on view from the cockpit window control - "railjack view" planets more lighter then basic missions
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vor 14 Stunden schrieb Graavarg:

When you are using the straight relationship between X and Y for graphical purposes, unconnected to any explanation or theory, it is not a actually a model. If someone were to claim that time (alone) explains the increase of the playerbase, it would be a model (of sorts). Without such a claim it is only a (very) basic statistic, the change over time smoothed out as a straight line. 

I have no motivation whatsoever of becoming "excellent", though I appreciate your reasonable and overall correct explanation. Once upon a time I designed and tested new multivariate methods (for research) and in my current work I evaluate quite complex data regularly (including at meta-level: evaluating expert evaluations of such data). One important aspect of such evaluations is checking for errors arising from what could be summed up as either "fitting your theory to your result" or "fitting your result to your theory". Though the problems generally arise from quite different settings and have a different logical background, they are (surprisingly) common. The first type mostly comes from "scientific results", and is as simple as someone first analyzing existing relationships in the data, then re-formulating the hypothesis/theory according to the results and then testing and "proving" the new hypothesis using the same data set (which in practical terms entails running standard a priori statistical testing that assumes no such prior adaptation has occurred, which makes it a lot easier to reach 0.99 or 0.95 significance). The other type is the time-proven method of trying to influence policy with ("carefully selected") data, where someone starts with the result they want and then select and manipulate the data to produce the "proof".

Without getting into specifics, let's just say that the kindergarden versions of both show up on this forum. One "group" doing this time after time after time are players with (very) strong feelings about how bad the game or DE is, but so unsecure in their convictions that they try to buff it with outlandish claims about "the community" and the "playerbase" and how it is "proven" by this or that. Now, if the proof in question would be scientifically and logically sound I would be the first to accept it. But after 4 years of lies and misrepresentation and an overall total disregard for logic, facts and science, and this on a level affecting the whole globe (and empowering like-minded idiots all over the planet) I might be a bit extra allergic to the same type of flawed argumentation and unproven theories showing up on the forum.

To sum it up you put the finger pretty well on all this: there has to be a (logical) hypothesis plus relevant data to prove (or disprove) it. The statistical methods can be insanely complex (due to the current computing power available) but logically and structurally it is just basic scientific philosophy (as long as you leave Kant, Kuhn & co out of it). A basic framework and basic rules millions of researchers and analysts are following on a daily basis all over the planet.

Pretty cool on that. You know, biggest problem on boards is that we use avatars and I and many others tend to stomp in any discussion kick-in-the-door style XD

And then I, and I suppose others too, are way down to our daily practics. I’m pretty sure I’m not using the terms as I did when I learnt their proper use, as in daily life I just use them to get things done. And I alteady learnt them differently in different countries. E.g. where I originally come from nobody used the word ‚model‘; in my university everything on two legs (pun intended) was a model and I am still mostly sticking to that usage


Big issue on the original topic seems to me that we did not yet look outside for playerbase declining / increasing reasons. I could imagine that employment situation has a huge impact at the very moment and impacts the steam numbers negatively. I‘d rather not play in many situations (like yesterday e.g.)

 

I also have to admit that in the beginning I was thinking to ‚stocky‘ as I was treating the steam average player numbers like a performance chart, just because that‘s what I look mostly at. And then even ‚non-growth‘, or slight player decline in month X year-to-year (I was looking mostly at the monthly figures) implyed to me something different than just players that take a break. So, I found the lookouts of average steam players not looking well. It looks healthy enough to support the game many years - and we are in a special situation with Corona around anyway - and we cannot model for that as most players have different situations around the globe.


Generally speaking, it‘d be cool getting daily player data, along their country of origin or IP based regionality, and average login time. With that one could nicely play :)

Edited by BesucherPrime
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Am 9.4.2021 um 12:45 schrieb master_of_destiny:

Let me revise that.  I cannot see anyone who cares about the consumer experience stopping at 29.10.10 as a good enough release for up to a month before the next patching will be done.  That said, here we sit.  

Indeed. I actually expected to be more like patching to 29.10.12+ today. Totally on your page.

For the release cycles, I don‘t think they‘ll disappear. However, they trigger feedback posts (especially on the update forums), so I could imagine that with categorized ‚comments on the warframe board‘-data, one could find a relation from measurable posts to players like: Many posts -> many additional players active. Many negative posts -> less players in a day, week or the like. However, I‘m not willing crawling the entire boards into a database and thinking about good regexp functions categorizing them, that‘d be too much work for me - I am here to find distraction from such XD

I actually quite enjoyed the discussion with you, Gravaarg, and iPhatos. It was way better than spamming Xoris on SP :)

As I am busy the coming week and tomorrow, so I‘m soon getting ingame. I wish you guys good findings and

May your skanas always be sharp ;)

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1 hour ago, BesucherPrime said:

Pretty cool on that. You know, biggest problem on boards is that we use avatars and I and many others tend to stomp in any discussion kick-in-the-door style XD

And then I, and I suppose others too, are way down to our daily practics. I’m pretty sure I’m not using the terms as I did when I learnt their proper use, as in daily life I just use them to get things done. And I alteady learnt them differently in different countries. E.g. where I originally come from nobody used the word ‚model‘; in my university everything on two legs (pun intended) was a model and I am still mostly sticking to that usage


Big issue on the original topic seems to me that we did not yet look outside for playerbase declining / increasing reasons. I could imagine that employment situation has a huge impact at the very moment and impacts the steam numbers negatively. I‘d rather not play in many situations (like yesterday e.g.)

 

I also have to admit that in the beginning I was thinking to ‚stocky‘ as I was treating the steam average player numbers like a performance chart, just because that‘s what I look mostly at. And then even ‚non-growth‘, or slight player decline in month X year-to-year (I was looking mostly at the monthly figures) implyed to me something different than just players that take a break. So, I found the lookouts of average steam players not looking well. It looks healthy enough to support the game many years - and we are in a special situation with Corona around anyway - and we cannot model for that as most players have different situations around the globe.


Generally speaking, it‘d be cool getting daily player data, along their country of origin or IP based regionality, and average login time. With that one could nicely play :)

 

I'm trying to understand...and it's obvious that we don't share the same default language.  I don't say this as a criticism, only that I may be missing some nuance or intent in the translation effort.

 

To that, I have two differing points to offer. 

The first, the Coof (Corona Virus) has impacted different countries differently, but the largest player base for warframe is the english speaking subset of the world.  That's the US, Canada, the UK, and those who have managed to know more than two languages.  The commonality amongst these areas is that as the Coof hit, most of them enacted some rather sweeping reforms.  Whether this be welfare restructuring, rebate checks, or simply utilizing their existing social welfare systems the end impact has largely been more free time for a larger amount of people.

How do I justify this?  Well, go check out the Steam Charts for games.  The overall results are that more people are playing games than 18 months ago.  Games with consistent and long term support are actually experiencing more people.  Likewise, the surveys and data released from online stores (specifically Steam, given their semi-transparency) suggest more games are being played for longer times.

 

The second point is that Warframe isn't experiencing an 18 month funk.  I'm sorry, but let me define what I mean.  A funk is something that is out of normal ranges, and is generally not indicative of regular trends.  Let's looks at the late 2017 to January 2020 numbers....and the trend for Warframe is no different than the previously established bad times.  In fact, once you remove the late 2020 Deimos peak the numbers are....abysmal.

 

 

So, let's link this back to 29.10.x to keep on topic.  Let's also assume that the 30.0 release is inextricable, and thus will fit with our model from previous years.  The Corpus tileset remaster was the 2020 rework.  It released with a barely working Protea, bugs that literally took the better part of a year to squash (spawning stuff outside of the map), if they ever were (yeah....corpus rescues on that tileset still spawn crap outside of bounds in the jail itself).

Let's compare to 29.10.x.  We have about the same amount of content.  That is to say 1 frame, 2 guns, and a new mission type.  The current update is a reskin, a new sentinel that uses a copy-paste Glaxion vandal, and a restructuring of Railjack with about 80% unchanged (10% cramming in new content, and 10% simply broken features rounding out that equation).  Things is, the remaster literally only had participation until people managed to get the excessively low drop rate parts to appear....assuming the thing was even possible to do between the broken spawns, inability to engage with the hands, and frankly insane litany of bugs that the new core feature made happen...

If it isn't clear, I'm calling this as the exact same but worse, because I can't trust what affinity, standing, or focus is being earned IN ALL GAME MODES because of this update.  The remaster wasn't something that drew people.  It didn't get fondly remembered....and people simply don't engage with the system in public groups.  29.10.x is a literal mirror of the remaster....and DE has no excuses.

 

"But the Coof" is pretty garbage when doing remote work for a software company that touts multiple offices around the world can't tolerate local remote work.  It's funny that the complaint is not having mocap facilities....when the latest cinematic was, if memory serves, the Deimos family with no legs, talking to each other oriented as a side by side discussion.  It's funny also that mocap isn't really necessary when your releases are 1% cinematics, 1% unique gameplay, 10% recycled content, and 88% terrifyingly bad RNG.

-I say this, because I'm salty.  No qualms.  I ran a 40 minute arbitration and earned 15 vitus essence (3 unit drop, and 6 random drops with a booster), 3 sculptures, and a few thousand endo.  Nothing I needed, and no arcanes.  Goody....40 minutes of life wasted because what I really needed was an entire day/night cycle of Cetus used to get no rewards...and that's just playing the game.  Still waiting on any reasonable drop rate for those new Corpus capturas....in random containers....on the railjack missions....with what is apparently a much less frequent spawn rate for any containers.  I see no lessons were learned from the rare containers having Umbral Forma with the sentient incursions.-

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49 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

The first, the Coof (Corona Virus) has impacted different countries differently, but the largest player base for warframe is the english speaking subset of the world.  That's the US, Canada, the UK, and those who have managed to know more than two languages.  The commonality amongst these areas is that as the Coof hit, most of them enacted some rather sweeping reforms.  Whether this be welfare restructuring, rebate checks, or simply utilizing their existing social welfare systems the end impact has largely been more free time for a larger amount of people.

How do I justify this?  Well, go check out the Steam Charts for games.  The overall results are that more people are playing games than 18 months ago.  Games with consistent and long term support are actually experiencing more people.  Likewise, the surveys and data released from online stores (specifically Steam, given their semi-transparency) suggest more games are being played for longer times.

Careful, we might get some obviously heavily biased responses from users calling those who disagree with them as kindergarten-level inputs. They might even drop to the point of trying to call us members of the "warframe-is-dying cult" or what-have-you! 😔

Edited by iPathos
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11 hours ago, iPathos said:

Careful, we might get some obviously heavily biased responses from users calling those who disagree with them as kindergarten-level inputs. They might even drop to the point of trying to call us members of the "warframe-is-dying cult" or what-have-you! 😔

Nah, I think you might have seen the light by now. 😉

Warframe shall live forever!

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14 hours ago, iPathos said:

Careful, we might get some obviously heavily biased responses from users calling those who disagree with them as kindergarten-level inputs. They might even drop to the point of trying to call us members of the "warframe-is-dying cult" or what-have-you! 😔

 

I will only repeat what I've already said.  Strawmen are quite easy to knock down.

 

Regarding the other bit, it isn't constructive.  I don't have to change everyone's minds with facts....because frankly some people don't even function by facts.  I find it best to allow them to continue, as my past experiences in dispelling the ignorance simply leave me burnt out, and feeling like that Futurama meme.  The Farnsworth one, from the episode about nanotech.  Again, not going to quote it, because it's got its own baggage.

 

 

This all said, someday warframe will die.  I only hope that it's a spectacular event, instead of a slow death spiral.  Nothing quite like watching something you love die....but everything does.  With my entertainment I prefer something like Lucasfilms, where the death is spectacular in its own right.  With my people I prefer Puppet Master.  Did you know there are currently 15 films in the Puppet Master universe?  I like them, and I thought they stopped after the ninth.  

-But there's always Warframe 2 to look forward to....funded entirely by the microtransactions...but it'll allow you to do the Warcraft thing where you can farm gold constantly to trade in for digital tat, which can then buy credits that disappear if not used in 30 days.  (lord I hope this to be sarcasm, but don't know if it will be)

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i have a npc crew member getting stuck in the gunners seat, i have them on defender for a reason (for this reason)and switch them to gunner in when i need them to do so and switch them back. i expect them to change back. i have asked this an update ago as well. i dont see it in your trello.

Warframe0238.jpg

Warframe0241.jpg

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13 minutes ago, xXkrentonXx said:

i have a npc crew member getting stuck in the gunners seat, i have them on defender for a reason (for this reason)and switch them to gunner in when i need them to do so and switch them back. i expect them to change back. i have asked this an update ago as well. i dont see it in your trello.

Warframe0238.jpg

Warframe0241.jpg

Please submit the issue to the bug hunting megathread (and source of the trello instances). Then it may gain some attention.

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On 2021-04-05 at 9:20 PM, AIAS-5 said:

Thanks for the hotfix!

But... again some issues.
- The key binding to unmount from a Railjack helm/turret seems to be hardcoded to [X], leading to confusion if you generally use a different key binding for "Use" than [X].
- Pressing [Alt] while mounted to a Railjack helm/turret toggles a fixed camera perspective outside of your Railjack (seemingly implemented to generate showcase footage back when it was about to be released). While you could toggle back to player perspective, you could also soft-lock yourself by mistake when you unmount from the helm/turret, since you're now stuck in that perspective and can't use the toggle button anymore.
- A feature I've missed since the initial release of Railjack: Setting waypoints to objects outside the Railjack from its inside (e.g. while you're operating a turret). Any chance this might come some time?

I so wish they'd give us a hotkey back to dismount from AW without slamming into the ground. -.-

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10 hours ago, Silescere said:

I so wish they'd give us a hotkey back to dismount from AW without slamming into the ground. -.-

You're only slamming into the ground because when you dismount the AW you're looking at the ground, so naturally you'll do a slam, look up or at the horizon then you'll float down like a leaf in a gentle breeze. :tongue:

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6 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

You're only slamming into the ground because when you dismount the AW you're looking at the ground, so naturally you'll do a slam, look up or at the horizon then you'll float down like a leaf in a gentle breeze. :tongue:

Oh dear, okay?  While I often facepalm when DE makes something "better", I am in turn amazed how creative people are with workarounds.
Guess me just wanting to press the AW hotkey again to dismount like in le good ole days is too mainstream :laugh:

I once managed to get dragged across half the map, far away from my conservation pickup because I looked at the horizon (maybe not far enough upwards? lol) while clicking melee to dismount. Friend: "What are you doing?" - Me: "My people need me!" xD

Edited by Silescere
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11 hours ago, Silescere said:

Oh dear, okay?  While I often facepalm when DE makes something "better", I am in turn amazed how creative people are with workarounds.
Guess me just wanting to press the AW hotkey again to dismount like in le good ole days is too mainstream :laugh:

I once managed to get dragged across half the map, far away from my conservation pickup because I looked at the horizon (maybe not far enough upwards? lol) while clicking melee to dismount. Friend: "What are you doing?" - Me: "My people need me!" xD

When you hit your melee to dismount you could try rolling to stop the slam, I don't know it just works for myself but yeah I know what you mean, doing the slam on purpose and ending up where you aim can be fun from high in the air.

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