Increase the range and precision of mouse sensitivity scaling

[Trasen56]

TL;DR: Please increase the precision and range of the Mouse Sensitivity scale. People coming from tactical shooters / prefer lower mouse sensitivity like me find it really annoying to be forced to play on high sensitivity or low FoV/Dpi.

Please look at Zemo's comments on page 2 and 3 as He brings up some very interesting numbers about the Sensitivity slider and the fact it is a logarithmic curve (In his own words: Changing your sensitivity from 0 to 1 changes the distance needed to turn 360 degrees by the same amount as going from 19 to 100).

I played a lot of warframe during the beta and when it first came out. Since then I have played it off and on, but the limit on mouse sensitivity has always made if hard for me to get back into. Since I played Warframe, I played over 1000 hours of Counter Strike and that has really shaped the sensitivity I prefer in games. I have the sensitivity on 0 on every scale and it still is at least 4x too high. I was looking through the forums to see if there was an easy fix to lower sensitivity and the only ones I found were lowering the FoV (which makes me feel kinda sick) and changing my mouses DPI, however I don't think these are good solutions as lowering DPI means your sensitivity in menus is much slower than your used to and it is a pain to do every time you open/close the game (not to mention people that come from tactical shooters and already play on 800 or 400 DPI and can't really lower it much or at all). I think this is a problem that lots of other people coming from tactical shooters and other games that encourage low sensitivity face as well (based off of other posts I saw when looking for a fix).

I would love to see an increase in the range of sensitivity scaling so that I can get the sensitivity low enough to feel comfortable. I also think increasing the precision to allow decimals would be good as it would make it more possible to find the exact sensitivity you want.

 

 

[George_PPS]

Very interesting topic and experience. What mouse do you use? I agree that Warframe’s gameplay is a lot faster than many other shooting games. I sometimes still feel disoriented when trying to shoot at Eidolons’ limbs at literally 3 meters away as the mouse cursor goes everywhere. I use Logitech G502 set at 2400. The default I believe is 1600 so I am using even high speed than default. 

[Trasen56]

10 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Very interesting topic and experience. What mouse do you use? I agree that Warframe’s gameplay is a lot faster than many other shooting games. I sometimes still feel disoriented when trying to shoot at Eidolons’ limbs at literally 3 meters away as the mouse cursor goes everywhere. I use Logitech G502 set at 2400. The default I believe is 1600 so I am using even high speed than default. 

I use a Logitech G Pro wireless on 1600 DPI, so I could drop to 400 and probably get approximately the sensitivity I want, but that would be a huge pain to deal with every time I open a menu or alt tab. Also I don't know how someone who plays with lower DPI would be able to deal with it other than maybe lowering FoV to the minimum. I just think this would be a great QoL change for people coming from tactical shooter or that simply prefer lower sens.

[George_PPS]

On 2021-04-07 at 7:24 AM, Trasen56 said:

I use a Logitech G Pro wireless on 1600 DPI, so I could drop to 400 and probably get approximately the sensitivity I want, but that would be a huge pain to deal with every time I open a menu or alt tab. Also I don't know how someone who plays with lower DPI would be able to deal with it other than maybe lowering FoV to the minimum. I just think this would be a great QoL change for people coming from tactical shooter or that simply prefer lower sens.

Doesn't your Logitech app remember the DPI you set? It should be set and done, not requiring changing it every time. 

[Trasen56]

Quote

Doesn't your Logitech app remember the DPI you set? It should be set and done, not requiring changing it every time. 

I use 1600 dpi for work and other games, so I would have to switch profiles to 400 DPI every time I play Warframe. It would also make my mouse feel incredibly slow in menus because my DPI would be so low. I would probably also only be able to get in the ballpark of where I want my sensitivity, and I would greatly prefer if I could get it exactly.

[Ark218]

I agree with Trasen. I also have to set in game sensitivity to the lowest value and then still lower my mouse dpi, and until they added the option for separate sensitivity in menus this was ultimately annoying. It's still a little rough if I need to alt tab, and thank god I have a quick dpi swap preset on my mouse, but this shouldn't even be an issue.

[Trasen56]

TL;DR: Please increase the precision and range of the Mouse Sensitivity scale. People coming from tactical shooters / prefer lower mouse sensitivity like me find it really annoying to be forced to play on high sensitivity or low FoV/Dpi.

I played a lot of warframe during the beta and when it first came out. Since then I have played it off and on, but the limit on mouse sensitivity has always made if hard for me to get back into. Since I played Warframe, I played over 1000 hours of Counter Strike and that has really shaped the sensitivity I prefer in games. I have the sensitivity on 0 on every scale and it still is at least 4x too high. I was looking through the forums to see if there was an easy fix to lower sensitivity and the only ones I found were lowering the FoV (which makes me feel kinda sick) and changing my mouses DPI, however I don't think these are good solutions as lowering DPI means your sensitivity in menus is much slower than your used to and it is a pain to do every time you open/close the game (not to mention people that come from tactical shooters and already play on 800 or 400 DPI and can't really lower it much or at all). I think this is a problem that lots of other people coming from tactical shooters and other games that encourage low sensitivity face as well (based off of other posts I saw when looking for a fix).

I would love to see an increase in the range of sensitivity scaling so that I can get the sensitivity low enough to feel comfortable. I also think increasing the precision to allow decimals would be good as it would make it more possible to find the exact sensitivity you want.

[Uhkretor]

... Lets see if you can evaluate successfully if I am going to impact your feedback in a positive, or negative, manner without me stating it...

1 hour ago, Trasen56 said:

a lot of warframe during the beta

... Officially, it never got out of Beta... But we all know otherwise.

1 hour ago, Trasen56 said:

it is a pain to do every time you open/close the game

... I thought that during present days, people could set different DPI profiles for each game, that activate automatically when the given application runs and deactivates automatically if its not running... I don't know, my 12-year old optical mouse does that... Are you, perhaps, using equipment that's over than half a decade older? If so, then that explains how you can't have different DPI profiles working...

Changing FoV doesn't help... It never did before, and never will. Just use the FoV that's most comfortable for you, instead of self-inducing nausea by choosing a hazardous FoV.

 

... I use my mouse sensitivity at 8, ingame, with a 800 DPI setting (I can go up to 2000 DPI, but I don't want to breathe and do a 3599640º spins, or see the need to for general use... And before you start thinking that my precision suffers, I can assure you my overall accuracy in every shooter is, at least, 98% and with constant reaction times below the 0.01s mark, as I'm used to setting up mouse sensitivities with whatever range is given in a game... On targets that are outside the 50º radius around the central crosshair... Training from years before Unreal Tournament 99 was a thing, and that game was released somewhere around 22 years ago...

"You'd be a beast in CS if you wanted to play it" you might think... Yeah, well, if I wanted to play something like CS:GO, I would just go play Warface... Its like... 200x better than CS:GO but, lets face it, preferences aren't debatable and its the wrong place for it anyway.

 

I understand the request for a higher range. It gives the possibility of fine tuning mouse sensitivity inside a particular game, which is always a good thing to have... But considering how Warframe really is, despite the fact that you (apparently) enjoy shooting stuff just like I enjoy shooting stuff, and how nuking is so prevalent and so demanded by everyone, I'm not seeing this getting implemented in the near future...

Who knows, I might be proven wrong and have it implemented quickly, giving me the chance to get those 2% I need to reach 100%...

[Trasen56]

21 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

... I thought that during present days, people could set different DPI profiles for each game, that activate automatically when the given application runs and deactivates automatically if its not running... I don't know, my 12-year old optical mouse does that... Are you, perhaps, using equipment that's over than half a decade older? If so, then that explains how you can't have different DPI profiles working...

The problem with this is that my sensitivity in menu's would be extremely slow. In order to have the sensitivity I want in game I would have to use 400 Dpi, I usually run 1600, so trying to use menu's would be extremely annoying and the sensitivity would still not be perfect and feel a bit uncomfortable. Having to adjust between 400 dpi and 1600 dpi when navigating my screen with a normal cursor every time I want to play Warframe is extremely inconvenient, hence why they should update the range and precision.

[Uhkretor]

17 minutes ago, Trasen56 said:

The problem with this is that my sensitivity in menu's would be extremely slow. In order to have the sensitivity I want in game I would have to use 400 Dpi, I usually run 1600, so trying to use menu's would be extremely annoying and the sensitivity would still not be perfect and feel a bit uncomfortable. Having to adjust between 400 dpi and 1600 dpi when navigating my screen with a normal cursor every time I want to play Warframe is extremely inconvenient, hence why they should update the range and precision.

I get it.

Go with a compromise, like I did, until they decide to do it. Find the right "Sensitivity/DPI" spot to minimize the differences between different sensitivities and go with it for the time being.

 

Its not the perfect solution, but at least you have the possibility to manage it somehow.

[Kontrollo]

That would definitely be a helpful change.

Not sure anymore, but I think I've seen another request on these forums to manually set a number (with fractions) instead of/in addition to using that slider.

[Trasen56]

12 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

That would definitely be a helpful change.

Not sure anymore, but I think I've seen another request on these forums to manually set a number (with fractions) instead of/in addition to using that slider.

I definitely prefer typable entries to sliders, so many games give you a slider and then it's impossible to only change it by one tick xd.

[Kontrollo]

On 2021-04-29 at 3:34 PM, Trasen56 said:

I definitely prefer typable entries to sliders, so many games give you a slider and then it's impossible to only change it by one tick xd.

I mean I get it. On consoles, you can't really type with a controller, or it's an awkward extra step. But that doesn't mean there can't be both at the same time.

[Andele3025]

Why not just set your mouse DPI at the real DPI you use post CS sensitivity modifier and then put it at 1:1 (+/-10% as usually games have about that much variance due to engine differences)? Same amount of hand movement same accuracy (since once you hit 90 degree fov and hd screens on a relatively modern mouse that isnt from a 2$ bin, the mouse tick rate/poll time is the actual bit where to get improvements) only not having to go through extra modifiers.

[Trasen56]

On 2021-05-10 at 12:17 PM, Andele3025 said:

Why not just set your mouse DPI at the real DPI you use post CS sensitivity modifier and then put it at 1:1 (+/-10% as usually games have about that much variance due to engine differences)? Same amount of hand movement same accuracy (since once you hit 90 degree fov and hd screens on a relatively modern mouse that isnt from a 2$ bin, the mouse tick rate/poll time is the actual bit where to get improvements) only not having to go through extra modifiers.

I could definitely fiddle with my mouse DPI to achieve a sensitivity that works in game, however I would then have trouble every time I open the menus as I am used to navigating my screen at 1600 DPI and setting it lower would make menu navigation very annoying.

[aivastus]

Just saying, none of these ideas of changing mouse dpi or enabling auto-detect profiles only for this single game in a person's library justify what the sensitivity slider currently is. This isn't an issue in any self-respecting title. In fact, it's not an issue even in games designed with much less passion and much less programming capability than WF.

One could also point out that the current trend in shooters is people moving to higher DPIs with lower in-game sensitivity to have more pixel precision by eliminating pixel-skipping. New top-end mice (actually pretty much anything with PMW3360 or later) handle high DPIs perfectly fine and there is a noticeable difference in feel between using 1600dpi or higher and low sens vs. 400dpi and medium sens. The swap back to 400dpi can feel disgusting, even so much people might rather abandon the game, because again, this doesn't happen in other shooters and isn't an acceptable norm that people would have a reason to "deal" with.

Disclaimer: I'm writing this with an assumption that there aren't major coding-related difficulties in fixing it.

 

[Trasen56]

10 hours ago, aivastus said:

One could also point out that the current trend in shooters is people moving to higher DPIs with lower in-game sensitivity to have more pixel precision by eliminating pixel-skipping. New top-end mice (actually pretty much anything with PMW3360 or later) handle high DPIs perfectly fine and there is a noticeable difference in feel between using 1600dpi or higher and low sens vs. 400dpi and medium sens. The swap back to 400dpi can feel disgusting, even so much people might rather abandon the game, because again, this doesn't happen in other shooters and isn't an acceptable norm that people would have a reason to "deal" with.

Disclaimer: I'm writing this with an assumption that there aren't major coding-related difficulties in fixing it.

 

Thank you Aivastus for adding this, it is the primary reason that I don't play Warframe with a lower DPI.

Fun Warframe fact: Diogenes was a G. Alexander the Great, after conquering most of Greece and before going to conquer the rest of the eastern Mediterranean and West Asia, ushering in the Hellenistic Age, was a huge fan of Diogenes. When Alexander told Diogenes he would grant him any wish he desired, something Alexander definitely had the power to do. Diogenes promptly told him to step to the side, as Alexander was blocking his light.

[Sloan441]

On 2021-05-11 at 7:18 PM, Trasen56 said:

I could definitely fiddle with my mouse DPI to achieve a sensitivity that works in game, however I would then have trouble every time I open the menus as I am used to navigating my screen at 1600 DPI and setting it lower would make menu navigation very annoying.

I think this is mostly a matter of what you're used to. Obviously, you don't want radical changes if you're unaccustomed to them. 

However, it might be time to get used to new settings. 

When I finally went to the most modern optical mice, I've pretty much stuck to 9000dpi for everything You do get used to it. On this present machine, I'm also using an ultrawide monitor and the mouse rarely has to move more than two inches to cover everything that I need covered on the monitor. 

Now you might say, hey, I need less twitch to line up precision shots. Again, you do get used to the faster mouse, but I've also transitioned to using the sniper clutch on Razer Basilisks to snap lower dpi when it's needed--which isn't all that often. 

[Trasen56]

On 2021-05-13 at 1:11 PM, Sloan441 said:

I think this is mostly a matter of what you're used to. Obviously, you don't want radical changes if you're unaccustomed to them. 

However, it might be time to get used to new settings.

I don't understand why I should have to relearn and adjust to a different DPI every time I want to play Warframe. Every other game I play I can get the sensitivity close to my preferred without adjusting DPI. This is a small change to Warframe that will open up the accessibility of the game a ton, without alienating or hurting existing players. There are also other downsides to adjusting my DPI down, as Aivastus pointed out. Finally, as I mentioned in a different post, right now, to get Warframe sensitivity to be correct I would have to drop my DPI from 1600 to 400, which is a 4x difference. Not only would this make a huge difference in how it feels to navigate my screen, it would also drastically decrease the precision I can achieve on my monitor, as 1600 is better for the resolution of my monito than 400.

[Zemo]

I've been struggling with the WF sensitivity slider as well, to the point where I had to go out and buy a new mouse that let me set my DPI in 50 unit increments in SW, instead of the normal DPI toggle switch.

The DPI for most normal mice is in the 800-1600 range. At 1600 DPI (and default FOV, which is nigh unplayable in 3rd person), the absolute lowest sensitivity obtainable is 16.6cm to turn a single rotation, which is twice as sensitive as the average for a typical tactical shooter. If you don't do something to your mouse outside of WF, you just can't play with anything lower.

The biggest issue I have with the sensitivity is the fact that it's logarithmic. At 1600 DPI, changing your sensitivity from 0 to 1 (the smallest possible increment, since there's no decimal sensitivity) changes your cm/360 from 16.6cm to 13.6cm. If you want to use any sensitivity in between those two numbers, too bad. On the other hand, changing your sensitivity from 99 to 100 only changes your cm/360 by 0.007 cm, from 0.729cm to 0.722cm.

This means that even if you change the DPI of your mouse, you probably still won't be able to get the sensitivity you want to use, if your mouse has the typical DPI toggle values (400/800/1600/3200). If you play at max FOV, which most people do, you would have to choose between 48 cm/360 at 400 DPI, and 24 cm/360 at 800 DPI. This is an absolutely staggering difference in sensitivity, and the sensitivity of most people that play any other tactical shooter would fall somewhere in between these ranges. Personally, I use ~32cm/360, so I had to buy a mouse that let me configure my DPI to 600. This isn't even the exact sensitivity I want to use, but I don't have any other choose because of the way the sensitivity options are.

TLDR: The default sensitivity is ridiculously high. The lowest sensitivity option is still way too high. The logarithmic sensitivity scale means that there are huge gaps between lower sensitivities, and imperceptible differences in the higher sensitivities. The sensitivity options should be refactored to include a larger range of lower sensitivities, and the sensitivity scaling should be smoothed out to decrease the difference between low sensitivities and increase the difference between high sensitivities.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

-Zemo

[Trasen56]

3 hours ago, Zemo said:

TLDR: The default sensitivity is ridiculously high. The lowest sensitivity option is still way too high. The logarithmic sensitivity scale means that there are huge gaps between lower sensitivities, and imperceptible differences in the higher sensitivities. The sensitivity options should be refactored to include a larger range of lower sensitivities, and the sensitivity scaling should be smoothed out to decrease the difference between low sensitivities and increase the difference between high sensitivities.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

-Zemo

Thanks for adding some numbers that support the post.

Fun Warframe fact: My cat brought in a dead mouse yesterday and set it down on the carpet. I picked it up and threw it outside while he wasn't looking. He spent the next ten minutes tunneling around under my carpet trying to figure out where his mouse got to. It was hilarious.

[Andele3025]

On 2021-05-12 at 1:18 AM, Trasen56 said:

I could definitely fiddle with my mouse DPI to achieve a sensitivity that works in game, however I would then have trouble every time I open the menus as I am used to navigating my screen at 1600 DPI and setting it lower would make menu navigation very annoying.

Make it 1600 then and have it raw/no sensitivity modifier.

On 2021-05-12 at 8:33 AM, aivastus said:

Just saying, none of these ideas of changing mouse dpi or enabling auto-detect profiles only for this single game in a person's library justify what the sensitivity slider currently is. This isn't an issue in any self-respecting title. In fact, it's not an issue even in games designed with much less passion and much less programming capability than WF.

Sensitivity past bumping to 0.5/2x hasnt been relevant for over a decade as mice got to a 350-400 baseline and technically can be set to physically unusable. Most people dont do any of those unless the game has mouse accel locked in or are masochists as you can just put your mouse to the DPI you like and use it without modifiers. DPI doesnt give you pixel accuracy, poll rate and your hand do.

On 2021-05-12 at 8:33 AM, aivastus said:

there is a noticeable difference in feel between using 1600dpi or higher and low sens vs. 400dpi and medium sens.

Only if your effective dpi is different/the sensitivity modifier doesnt result the same, the game doesnt use a proper sensitivity modifier but a grid align or the mouse is 30 year old dollar store garbage. Most people end up at a 1k-1.2k range simply because its the average best for FHD~QHD displays.

[Trasen56]

17 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Make it 1600 then and have it raw/no sensitivity modifier.

I can't set it to 1600 DPI because the slider doesn't go low enough for me to get the cm/360 that I want when not navigating menu's.

17 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

DPI doesnt give you pixel accuracy, poll rate and your hand do.

I've also read (though not thoroughly researched) that higher DPI is smoother on large/high refresh rate monitors.

Also there is definitely a difference in feel between high DPI and low sens vs low DPI and high sens, even if the eDPI is the same. It's not a huge difference and you won't notice it after a few days, but the I just want to be able to play Warframe without having to mess with my mouse settings.

[Andele3025]

13 hours ago, Trasen56 said:

I can't set it to 1600 DPI because the slider doesn't go low enough for me to get the cm/360 that I want when not navigating menu's.

Doesnt go that high you mean since 1600 is below hd and qhd screens.

Quote

I've also read (though not thoroughly researched) that higher DPI is smoother on large/high refresh rate monitors.

Yes, but after circa 800 (tho with QHD being closer to standard more likely 1k~1070) the difference from going up with a negative sensitivity mod for your real prefered dpi in terms of accuracy is lower than just the difference of having good but not perfectly fit arm and wrist rest for a year.

Quote

Also there is definitely a difference in feel between high DPI and low sens vs low DPI and high sens, even if the eDPI is the same. It's not a huge difference and you won't notice it after a few days, but the I just want to be able to play Warframe without having to mess with my mouse settings.

No there isnt unless your mouse has a sub 400~500 poll rate along with your dpi being on either side of the insane side (2 digit and moving across a gymroom worth of desk or 200k+), its literally mechanically in terms of resulting mouse movement. We are no longer in the early 2005-2009 when tweaking your mouse dpi would cause errors. Or the game uses pixel snapping with you playing in a resolution unsupported by your screen, which first doesnt apply to warframe but second would be a flaw of ones settings.

Unless you mean in feel in terms of hand motion in which case you probably didnt hit the same real DPI post modifiers which is why i said just put it to 1:1 and use your native/the DPI used for desktop use everywhere.

[Zemo]

15 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Doesnt go that high you mean since 1600 is below hd and qhd screens.

He's saying that he can't use 1600 DPI because the sensitivity slider doesn't go into negative numbers. 1600 DPI with the sensitivity at 0, the lowest possible value, is a much higher sensitivity than most people would want to use that play other shooters like CSGO or Valorant.