Increase the range and precision of mouse sensitivity scaling

[Trasen56]

On 2021-05-24 at 11:37 PM, Andele3025 said:

Unless you mean in feel in terms of hand motion in which case you probably didnt hit the same real DPI post modifiers which is why i said just put it to 1:1 and use your native/the DPI used for desktop use everywhere.

I'm telling you there is a difference in feel. When I changed from 400 dpi to 1600 dpi around a year ago, I changed my in game sens for cs:go so that my eDPI remained exactly the same. There is a definite difference in feel, though it is small and I adjusted to it within a day. It's possible it was all in my head though xd.

[amk207]

I agree with Trasen56.

I want to achieve the same in/360 value I use in all the other games I've play, but I am unable to match that in/360 value closer than 1/2"; because of the limited range of sensitivity. I believe this is unreasonable.

  

[40PE]

TLDR:If I turn on mice dpi to max game turns unlpayably fast due to not able to lower sensitivity more.

Im having this issue since say 1. And mouse dpi is growing and growing -which is a good thing-. But not sure why games (not just WF) cannot support MUCH lower sensitivity.

I can work around it, sure. Still annoying that in menus I have to drastically lower my mouse dpi, then when in game I can utilize only half of my mice's dpi.

[Andele3025]

13 hours ago, 40PE said:

But not sure why games (not just WF) cannot support MUCH lower sensitivity.

WF does support very low sensitivity tho. You can drop from circa 15k~ to 1k~ dpi (going from unreasonable even on a 8 screen dome display in 4k to for the average human perfect for HD~QHD screen/possibly very slightly low for a gamer) by dropping sensitivity from 1:1 (which iirc is 50 or 47 or so) to 0.

[Zemo]

On 2021-06-06 at 6:20 PM, Andele3025 said:

You can drop from circa 15k~ to 1k~ dpi (going from unreasonable even on a 8 screen dome display in 4k to for the average human perfect for HD~QHD screen/possibly very slightly low for a gamer) by dropping sensitivity from 1:1 (which iirc is 50 or 47 or so) to 0.

What does that even mean? The DPI is a property of your mouse. You can't change your DPI by changing the in-game sensitivity. Maybe you meant to say eDPI? Even so, eDPI is a combination of the in-game sensitivity and your mouse CPI/DPI. 1k eDPI is ~41.56 cm/360. To get 1k eDPI at 0 sens, you would need to set your mouse DPI to 462. Changing DPI is not possible for a large majority of mice. Even FPS mice like Zowie only use DPI switches with common values 400/800/1600 and rely on the in-game sensitivity slider to make adjustments to eDPI. I sprang for a Logitech mouse just so I could program my mouse DPI, but it only has 50 DPI increments.

[Andele3025]

1 hour ago, Zemo said:

You can't change your DPI by changing the in-game sensitivity.

Its the same modifier. Putting your DPI above screen rez and then applying a negative sensitivity mod or just having 1:1 with no sensitivity results in same actual dpi.w

1 hour ago, Zemo said:

Maybe you meant to say eDPI? Even so, eDPI is a combination of the in-game sensitivity and your mouse CPI/DPI. 1k eDPI is ~41.56 cm/360.

No, on a HD (or even QHD) screen with 110 fov its barely some 8.4 to 10cm to do a 360. Did you mess up and confuse image resolution with dpi (both are dubbed the same but mouse dpi is technically pixels per inch for effectively every manifacturer ever as can be easily seen by having no windows sensitivity mod, taking a ruler, pulling 2.5cm line irl and seeing how long the line is in paint) when measuring that?

1 hour ago, Zemo said:

Changing DPI is not possible for a large majority of mice. Even FPS mice like Zowie only use DPI switches with common values 400/800/1600 and rely on the in-game sensitivity slider to make adjustments to eDPI. I sprang for a Logitech mouse just so I could program my mouse DPI, but it only has 50 DPI increments.

Even on 1$ chinese barely functional 1 button mice due to the much higher poll rate than base DPI, you can still modify it via windows to typically dpi of 800 without stuttering or accuracy problems. On board vs OS software doesnt care if the amount of time the mouse actually updates the OS on its position is at or below the DPI (once you get above that you do actually care for a mouse with dpi settings, but that is still actually a big chunk of mice as even office mice from yee 2009~2010 started to support a hypothetical 3-4k dpi). We are not in 2004 when you had to worry that your mouse had a dark enough surface for the laser to recognize movement (mostly since the world no longer even uses real light reflection and refraction tracking for mice having 90%+ shifted to laser).

And my whole little dialogue is either way not relevant it in no way changes the fact that then OP should have no problems getting a properly low sensitivity. Because as even you would as said with the examples, you need to have a mouse DPI setting of over 10k (which is close to extremely unreasonable for pretty much every monitor setup) to have difficulties getting in game/edpi to below 400 and should have no problem getting to needing 1m+ of desk space to 360 if he drops sensitivity to whatever massive negative in game 0 is (since as said 1:1 is the 50 as WF swapped from the -3 to +3 it had going, why its not just a actual modifier number for people to use idk, but then again windows too uses a descriptionless slider).

[Zemo]

Nothing you're saying makes any sense.

On 2021-06-08 at 2:04 PM, Andele3025 said:

applying a negative sensitivity mod

What do you mean by negative sensitivity mod? Are you talking about kernel driver mods like RawAccel? I'm not sure if RawAccel is bannable or not. Software like that should definitely be out of discussion for this topic. Or does sensitivity mod just refer to the in-game multiplier?

On 2021-06-08 at 2:04 PM, Andele3025 said:

on a HD (or even QHD) screen with 110 fov its barely some 8.4 to 10cm to do a 360.

Your math also doesn't make sense. eDPI = mouse DPI x sens (in source). 1k eDPI would be 2 sens @ 500 DPI, which is 41.5cm/360. WF does have FoV dependent sensitivity, but it would not turn 41.5cm/360 to 10cm.

On 2021-06-08 at 2:04 PM, Andele3025 said:

you can still modify it via windows to typically dpi of 800

Warframe uses raw mouse input. Any multipliers from the Windows OS are ignored by the game. You can verify yourself by setting the Windows setting as low as possible and alt-tabbing back to the game.

On 2021-06-08 at 2:04 PM, Andele3025 said:

OP should have no problems getting a properly low sensitivity

I challenge you to achieve 45.5 cm/360 @ 90 FOV in Warframe, without lowering your mouse CPI below 400. Remember to measure in game, and not in Orbiter, since Orbiter has a forced FOV separate from the in-game setting. Let me know how close you get.

[Andele3025]

3 hours ago, Zemo said:

Nothing you're saying makes any sense. Or does sensitivity mod just refer to the in-game multiplier?

In game (sensitivity below 50* or 0 per old -3 to 3 scale) or middle on the Win slider (if using per window settings).

*technically its around 47-50 depending on mouse software dpi since DE has some engine mystery spaghetti, but its easy to test by having paint up and using mouse position pings

3 hours ago, Zemo said:

Your math also doesn't make sense. eDPI = mouse DPI x sens (in source). 1k eDPI would be 2 sens @ 500 DPI, which is 41.5cm/360. WF does have FoV dependent sensitivity, but it would not turn 41.5cm/360 to 10cm.

Dots per inch as far as mouse calculation (and essentially everything but art programs since dots per inch doesnt mean screen pitch, its with dpi doesnt stay the same per monitor when you shift its resolution) is pixels per inch. Now since the game FOV is ~110 (+/-10 depending on what aspect ratio your screen is) that means on a HD screen at 1k real/eDPI you would only need to move the mouse some 8.4cm to get a full 360.
Or at least i hope you dont have a full 4k dome/your screen resolution isnt 28.9kx16k to require the 40+cm going from the left to right side of the monitor.

3 hours ago, Zemo said:

Warframe uses raw mouse input. Any multipliers from the Windows OS are ignored by the game. You can verify yourself by setting the Windows setting as low as possible and alt-tabbing back to the game.

No it doesnt, it applies all dpi mods (built in on mouse settings, mouse settings via its software, universal sensitivity programs, kernel and registry edits, windows/per window windows rules and in game sensitivity) down to a "usable at all on desk" floor (circa 12~13cm per 180), if it detects lower it auto bumps to raw mouse input it seems). You might have windows set to not apply its sensitivity in programs, but that would be something you did yourself (as its a default since XP to be a direct mouse modifier).

3 hours ago, Zemo said:

I challenge you to achieve 45.5 cm/360 @ 90 FOV in Warframe, without lowering your mouse CPI below 400. Remember to measure in game, and not in Orbiter, since Orbiter has a forced FOV separate from the in-game setting. Let me know how close you get.

Why the hell would you make the mouse unusable? Not just from a question of how much desk space do you have for that much mouse movement, but 45 cm for 360 at 90 vertical fov is a DPI of 71, thats maybe good for old HVGA screens or a mobile phone. But its the only thing that makes sense unless you're talking about horizontal space which would be for print resolution and doesnt factor for games or digital images.

[Zemo]

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

No it doesnt, it applies all dpi mods (built in on mouse settings, mouse settings via its software, universal sensitivity programs, kernel and registry edits, windows/per window windows rules and in game sensitivity)

I did some testing on this, and WF will use raw input in Fullscreen mode, but will keep OS modifiers in Borderless Fullscreen. You must not be using WF in Fullscreen.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Or at least i hope you dont have a full 4k dome/your screen resolution isnt 28.9kx16k to require the 40+cm going from the left to right side of the monitor.

Similarly, Monitor/Game resolution does not affect sensitivity in Fullscreen mode. You can verify this for yourself. My sensitivity was the same at 1080p and 720p, both by changing the monitor resolution, and the game resolution.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Now since the game FOV is ~110 (+/-10 depending on what aspect ratio your screen is) that means on a HD screen at 1k real/eDPI you would only need to move the mouse some 8.4cm to get a full 360.

WF uses vertical FOV. At a standard 16:9 resolution, that gives a FOV of 121. WF has a yaw value of 0.01047618277764346° at 121 FOV. You can use this value for your calculations. eDPI is directly convertible to cm/360. 1k eDPI is 41.5 cm/360 by definition. You can check any of the online eDPI calculators if you don't believe me.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Why the hell would you make the mouse unusable?

The average sensitivity for CSGO pros is 47.5cm/360, which is even lower than the sensitivity I mentioned. 30-50cm/360 is typical for tactical shooters like CSGO/Valorant, and 15-30 for arena shooters like Quake. I personally use 32cm/360 for WF, but that's because I typically play arena shooters. Someone that wants to use the same sens as CSGO would want to use something at least close, in the 30-50 cm/360 range.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Not just from a question of how much desk space do you have for that much mouse movement

I mean, the desk space needed is clearly defined in the sensitivity. 360° aren't needed, but you would want some extra space to do 180° maneuvers after tracking. 45.5cm isn't an unreasonable amount of desk space for a mouse. It's less than a foot and a half.

[Andele3025]

11 hours ago, Zemo said:

WF uses vertical FOV. At a standard 16:9 resolution, that gives a FOV of 121. WF has a yaw value of 0.01047618277764346° at 121 FOV. You can use this value for your calculations. eDPI is directly convertible to cm/360. 1k eDPI is 41.5 cm/360 by definition. You can check any of the online eDPI calculators if you don't believe me.

#*!%ed up on the first case since i just calced out halves (since in fps going center to edge of screen is the actually relevant bit for accuracy feel) and then vertical rotation once for some reason/did a brain derp; both are still close enough/6~8 is far closer to the 15~ it is than the 40+ cm you said takes for the 360.

EDPI of 1k means 1k pixels per 2.54cm. On a HD screen with no sensitivity modifiers, that means just over half a screen, 1k isnt as common as the more standard 0.8 or 1.2k dpi of mice lets cut the difference and say close enough. Thus with horizontal fov of 121 (we can round down to 120) that means in a 4.88cm mouse movement you do a third of a circle turn on that HD screen (or at least close enough, some 2-3% up down doesnt matter to most people).  Since a third of a circle times 3 for full circle we multiply 4.88 times 3 for a total of 14.6 for a 360. So no, by definition at 1:1 its around 14-18cm per 360° (depending on where we are between 1.2 or 0.8 mouse dpi).
41.5cm sounds like you're reading the diagonal area for when calculating the resolution for digital images being printed or are doing a point revolution tests, but you do those to determine your sensitivity in the first place, not change your sensitivity to get a specific value for it (and it depends on character movement and distance in games with variable terrain but thats another topic).

11 hours ago, Zemo said:

The average sensitivity for CSGO pros is 47.5cm/360, which is even lower than the sensitivity I mentioned. 30-50cm/360 is typical for tactical shooters like CSGO/Valorant, and 15-30 for arena shooters like Quake. I personally use 32cm/360 for WF, but that's because I typically play arena shooters. Someone that wants to use the same sens as CSGO would want to use something at least close, in the 30-50 cm/360 range.

Not sure how you got that when their DPI seems to be around 800 (at least in CSGO when on 16:9 HD+ rez) when a 47cm for a 360 they take around 17~18cm.

11 hours ago, Zemo said:

I mean, the desk space needed is clearly defined in the sensitivity. 360° aren't needed, but you would want some extra space to do 180° maneuvers after tracking. 45.5cm isn't an unreasonable amount of desk space for a mouse. It's less than a foot and a half.

It kinda is, thats the horizontal length of the typical keyboard. And seeing how its in the 98th percentile that you tend to go over the typical work area of 33~cm on non-extended large mousepads, its still a good chunk more than you need unless your mouse is already quite low sensitivity, which then comes back to the point tho, why not just use 1:1 set your DPI to what you're actually using for everything else.

[KingOfPredators]

On 2021-04-26 at 7:01 PM, Trasen56 said:

The problem with this is that my sensitivity in menu's would be extremely slow. In order to have the sensitivity I want in game I would have to use 400 Dpi, I usually run 1600, so trying to use menu's would be extremely annoying and the sensitivity would still not be perfect and feel a bit uncomfortable. Having to adjust between 400 dpi and 1600 dpi when navigating my screen with a normal cursor every time I want to play Warframe is extremely inconvenient, hence why they should update the range and precision.

 

This is truly main issue even if mouse can be adjusted to lower cpi (dpi is wrong term for mouses, so I am not gonna use it). Even with lower cpi, I would need to bring my mouse down to 100 to fine-tune it. Switching cpi is not really practical, especially isince we still have menu mouse speed from windows.

Regardless of what cs:go pro players are using and how warframe sens scale works, the fact is, in games like siege or cs (even amcient ones) you can adjust mouse sensitivity to your liking. My driverless mouse has few pre-configured steps under it in range of 400-3200cpi, I would assume that is what most players are using. Since standard sized mousepads are about 30cm, I would assume that most people would use whole pad for 360 turn.

Warframe can achieve ~30cm at 1k cpi+sens 1 and with possible steps of 1 it is clearly broken. I don't think there is an actual issue with scale itself, it is just the fact we can't use decimals... Even 1 decimal would help greatly and would generaly prevent messing with muscle memory.

I just can't believe this is still ongoing issue...

[Zemo]

On 2021-06-12 at 10:17 AM, Andele3025 said:

EDPI of 1k means 1k pixels per 2.54cm.

No it doesn't. eDPI is just effective DPI. It's defined as DPI * sensitivity, and it would vary depending on the game. When converting eDPI to a sensitivity, I'm using CSGO as the reference, since it's the most common game to use eDPI. For WF, eDPI is useless. I play on a sensitivity of 0, so my eDPI would be 0 no matter what DPI I use. For CSGO, 1k eDPI means you are using an in-game sensitivity of 2, and a DPI of 500, for example. With those settings, it would take 41.5 cm to do a full 360. 

On 2021-06-12 at 10:17 AM, Andele3025 said:

they take around 17~18cm.

Do you have a source for that? Here is a spreadsheet of the sensitivity of Pro CSGO players. Only 3 have cm/360 under 20cm, meanwhile there are 150+ players using a sensitivity > 41.5cm. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UaM765-S515ibLyPaBtMnBz7xiao0HL5f-F1zk_CSF4/edit#gid=1762004852 

On 2021-06-12 at 10:17 AM, Andele3025 said:

why not just use 1:1 set your DPI to what you're actually using for everything else.

I wish I could, but WF doesn't support decimals in their sensitivity slider, so I'm forced to set my DPI low to get close to a decent sensitivity.

[Andele3025]

4 hours ago, Zemo said:

No it doesn't. eDPI is just effective DPI. It's defined as DPI * sensitivity, and it would vary depending on the game. When converting eDPI to a sensitivity, I'm using CSGO as the reference, since it's the most common game to use eDPI. For WF, eDPI is useless. I play on a sensitivity of 0, so my eDPI would be 0 no matter what DPI I use. For CSGO, 1k eDPI means you are using an in-game sensitivity of 2, and a DPI of 500, for example. With those settings, it would take 41.5 cm to do a full 360. 

DPI in any form for mice is pixels per inch so yes it does, eDPI of 1k means 1k pixels per 2.54cm aka 1.92 (aka screen rez at full HD) per 4.88 which with a FOV of 120, when is tripled is 360. Since if 120

And no. Warframe sensitivity "0%" isnt 0% of your DPI, its a proportional curve. It used to display multipliers in form of a scale from -3 to +3 (aka 1/3rd to 3x mouse dpi) but it aint now (much like the default sensitivity slider of windows).

Quote

Do you have a source for that? Here is a spreadsheet of the sensitivity of Pro CSGO players. Only 3 have cm/360 under 20cm, meanwhile there are 150+ players using a sensitivity > 41.5cm. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UaM765-S515ibLyPaBtMnBz7xiao0HL5f-F1zk_CSF4/edit#gid=1762004852 

Literally in the reply posted. As does yours with them mostly playing at 800+. Hell more play with a dpi above 1.2k than below 600 (which used to be the standard for screens from 2 decades ago around a decade and a half ago/when 800+ dpi mice with moddable settings were only starting to be generally publicly accessible. And the 40+ is explained by something even i forgot CSGO competitive limits screen fov to 90 with a camera point/model FOV even below that, but they use typically widened or custom rez setups (to get the on screen fov higher), resulting in the same thing and why players not on native 4:3 and sub FHD screens still tend to be on a DPI of 800~.

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I wish I could, but WF doesn't support decimals in their sensitivity slider, so I'm forced to set my DPI low to get close to a decent sensitivity.

Set it to 47-51 and compare to how it feels out of warframe. Its why 50 on the sensitivity slider is the default because its (almost 1:1, again engine spaghetti means with certain aspect ratios or non-standard screen sizes its slightly off. If its somehow different cm length of mouse movement in WF to do a turn to edge of periphery from starting point than from center screen to edge, then you have something like a per window windows mouse sensitivity option enabled.

[Uhkretor]

@Andele3025

Spoiler

... Don't take me wrong, but you're doing exactly the same mistake I did... You're trying to explain something to someone that doesn't want any debates, explanations or QoL improvements of any kind (despite the amount of different solutions to the problem already available) and that's using two (or more) different accounts to promote visibility to this topic without the need for "Fun Warframe Facts" bumps of boredom...

I already made my battery of tests on DPI <-> ingame sensitivity to debunk this entire thread and I can tell outright that the game is optimized for 900 DPI. Anyone playing the game at either lower or higher DPI do so at their own discretion, fully aware of any risks and accepted said risks implied with that choice.

 

Honestly, trying to explain your arguments in this thread is the same as talking to several seemingly unconnected walls at the same time, as those mainly involved with this thread simply do not care, or even want to bother caring, about anything you present even if you are absolutely right on the matter...

My advice? Cease and desist... Your time is well spent elsewhere, and will certainly be more helpful to any other player and more productive anywhere else other than... here.

[sitfesz]

I got a new mouse and I had to lower mouse sensitivity from 8/100 to 6/100 so I only do a 180 degree turn after like 2cm mouse movement. However I'm mostly fine with it, because I still have that 5 units out of 100 to lower mouse sensitivity in case I needed, I would like to state I'm the kind of player who only moves the mouse by wrist/fingers and my melting mousepads reinforce the fact I really use sensitive mouse everywhere. And I use 6/100 in warframe, just saying.

My mouse is set to 1200 DPI, 8/11 in win10 and most other games are fine above 50/100.

[Kontrollo]

Guns are getting buffed, but will the mouse sensitivity slider get one, too? Find out next patch, oooonly in Warframe.

[Trasen56]

Fun Warframe fact: Rule 2 states "Use our forums to talk to us and talk to each other in a constructive and respectful way that encourages interaction and thoughtful discussion. Stay on-topic, be constructive and use descriptive Topic titles. Don’t rage/rant post, name and shame, have misleading topic titles, post spam, advertisements, unreleased Design Council information, pornography or any other inappropriate, offensive or irrelevant content to the Forums in text, image, or video form. We will delete/edit it, and there will be consequences as per our warnings."

I got a warning yesterday and all of my other 'Fun Warframe facts' have been deleted. Hopefully they bother to improve the mouse sensitivity at some point. I wonder if this post is going to be removed lmao.

[Kontrollo]

On 2021-06-24 at 5:56 PM, Trasen56 said:

...
I got a warning yesterday and all of my other 'Fun Warframe facts' have been deleted. Hopefully they bother to improve the mouse sensitivity at some point. I wonder if this post is going to be removed lmao.

Sorry to hear that. I guess it was seen as spam.

But yeah, it's hard to keep non-controversial things afloat, simply by the nature of a forum that is ordered by most recent message. And especially so if it's a bit of a niche topic.

[Trasen56]

On 2021-06-28 at 4:31 AM, Kontrollo said:

Sorry to hear that. I guess it was seen as spam.

But yeah, it's hard to keep non-controversial things afloat, simply by the nature of a forum that is ordered by most recent message. And especially so if it's a bit of a niche topic.

Ye, I can understand why they did it. I actually tried to look for any rules about bumping posts when I first started the topic, but I wasn't able to find any (granted I don't think I looked that hard lmao).