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Warframe Rebalance // Armour/Health/Shields, Enemy Scaling, Status 3.0


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Grab a drink and sit back, this is a very long read. In this post I cover the core issues with Warframe's current balance. I will break this post into sections so you can look through the headers to find something you're looking for, do however keep in mind that this will be a massive update with changes to many of the facets that affect balance. What I mean by this is, if you don't read the entire post you may not understand lots of the reasons for some changes, or may entirely miss some things that affect how you would have felt about the parts you did read. That aside, thanks in advance for the time you take to read my post, regardless of how much you make it through. Good luck Tenno and I look forward to hearing your input!

Today I bring you the wynnie (my name) edition "Warframe Rebalance".

Note: This is a jarring change to how much of the game's balance functions, and thus I don't expect everyone to agree with it at first glance, so please pay attention and try to understand the issues that exist as I'm explaining. Take time to think, and then try to see how these changes would address the issues at hand.

Alright, so to start off, I'll get into what this covers. So for this rework, the design goal is to increase the build and enemy diversity. Currently, if you're put up against Grineer, there's an alloy armoured Bombard and a ferrite armoured Heavy Gunner, yet for both of these two supposedly "distinct" units, you still just slap on slash and call it a day. This is a big issue with Warframe's current design, when it comes to a faction like Grineer or Corpus you just slap on a specific element to ignore their resistances for the entire faction. Having a specific build be the most effective is healthy design, however the issue comes from the fact that slash and toxin are bypassing elements. This means they completely remove the difference between any units you're put up against, alloy armour vs ferrite armour doesn't matter when they're both bypassed by slash in the same way. It makes sense for some builds to be more effective against certain armoured enemies, but there should never be a time where you can use a single build that is most effective against all units in a specific faction. There should be some level of having to consider the unit in question, especially when considering heavier units like Corpus Techs or Bombards. Slapping on a single build that is perfectly effective against a whole faction leads to stale and unrewarding gameplay.

  • Slash and toxin no longer bypass armour/shields.

Another issue is even if you have an adequate amount of damage, you're still not able to kill the armoured enemies you're up against simply because you can't force the right status. Currently, any weapons that are not good at applying slash status can never compete once enemy armour scales, because of how effective health works. The effective health gets so high that it's impossible to brute force with up-front damage, which shoe-horns you into building to ignore it on weapons. This issue then means weapons that can't proc slash via some method are rendered obsolete. This issue is slightly corrected by the band-aid mods that we have (Hunter Munitions, Internal Bleeding). These mods attempt to address this issue by making specific weapon types able to compete against armour by forcing slash, instead of making the weapons inherently able to compete by addressing the armour scaling issue. These mods only further the idea that armour scaling needs to be looked into as there are many weapons that are completely irrelevant and can never even be considered against armoured factions.

  • Armour no longer scales and is now a separate (second) health pool.
    • more on this below in the revised sections

So, another thing! Status procs are incredibly useful, and a wonderful tool that can be used to achieve your goal of murdering everything as quickly as possible. There are some very serious issues with it in it's current form however, the current core issue with it would be the power discrepancy between low and high fire-rate status weapons. In it's current form, even with two weapons that have an equal status chance of 100, the slower firing weapon takes significantly longer to apply the same number of debuff stacks as the fast weapon. This should be standardized, so that even if a weapon is slow firing, if it's a status weapon and is built appropriately it can compete with faster status weapons. The damage procs will not be affected by this system as their effectiveness is already properly balanced around a weapon's dps, but debuff procs have nothing balancing them.

  • Status Efficacy: debuff procs now scale with weapon's base fire-rate.

This is the main chunk of what this rework is attempting to address. There are lots of extra little sections, because as I'm updating armour I believe health and shields should be changed to have a similar design direction, despite shields and health not needing extensive changes. So there will be the main sections that address the above issues, and extra little tidbits that are tacked on to keep everything cohesive and to not leave bits of the system behind and outdated.

Armour Revised:

Armour is being made a separate pool, separate from health. It's now effectively a second health pool with differing resistances. I will give a quick breakdown on the effective health (up-front damage required to kill a target) and how current scaling works, including when armour strip is considered, to show how unbalanced it is. Armour functioning as a second health pool will require lots of changes. For the Tenno, we would need a way to replenish our armour. This could be accomplished by adding "armour orbs" that are potential drops from enemies, as well as creating/changing a few mods or arcanes that grant some way to replenish armour. One good candidate would be Parazon Finishers, but of course there will also be changes lots of Warframes could receive to gain an inherent way to replenish it within their kit.

health.png

So for a generic tanky armoured unit as an example we can use a Heavy Gunner, and comparably "tanky" enemy without armour or some extra damage reduction gimmick.

Heavy Gunner:

  • level 100;
    • ~32,000 health
    • ~6,400 armour
      • ~95% damage reduction
    • ~700,000 effective health

Corpus Tech:

  • level 100;
    • ~70,000 health
    • ~11,000 shield
      • ~81,000 effective health

now if you were to strip 90% of the gunner's armour via corrosive and heat procs maybe non-armoured units can compete in tankiness..?

Heavy Gunner:

  • level 100;
    • ~32,000 health
    • ~640 armour
      • 90% stripped from corrosive + heat
      • ~68% damage reduction
    • ~100,000 effective health
      • despite removing 90% of it's armour, it still has about 25% more
        effective health than a comparably tanky non-armoured unit, this
        figure only grows larger as the enemy levels climb
      • as well as having more effective health than the non-armoured unit
        it will still be 3x quicker to use true damage (slash) to bypass it's
        armour instead of brute force it with direct damage

Now from the above figures you can see clearly with current armour, even with a weapon stripping as much armour as possible, it still poses a significant balance issue. This effective health discrepancy greatly exaggerates the value of slash procs, because despite them being more than 30% weaker than all other damage procs, they are still by far the most effective for any armoured units, even when a weapon is built entirely to strip armour, which is a massive balance issue.

Armour Resistance Changes:

  • Three unique armour types.
    • Ferrite Armour
    • Alloy Armour
    • Tenno Armour
       
  • Each armour type now has the following resistances (except for Tenno armour, -45% across the board to incoming damage).
    • 1 x -75%
    • 2 x -50%
    • 3 x -25%
    • 4 x +0%
      • (void not counted here as it's the true neutral)
    • 1 x +25%
    • 1 x +50%
    • 1 x +75%

unknown.png

The above picture is my suggested changes for Ferrite resistances, as well as it being made a separate life pool like health or shields. Designing life pools around the elemental resistance system would be a fantastic design overhaul. It greatly rewards build diversity and removes the issues of armour scaling and how armour currently functions as a reduction on top of another reduction, which makes weaknesses less relevant than just bypassing. All life pools in the game should be converted to the above system, relying solely on elemental modifiers for their effective "armour".

  • Ferrite Armour:
    • Impact: -25%
    • Puncture: +25%
    • Slash: -75%
    • Heat: +0%
    • Cold: -25%
    • Electricity: +0%
    • Toxin: -50%
    • Void: +0%
    • Gas: +0%
    • Magnetic: +0%
    • Corrosive: +50%
    • Viral: -50%
    • Blast: +75%
    • Radiation:  -25%
       
  • Alloy Armour:
    • Impact: -75%
    • Puncture: +0%
    • Slash: -50%
    • Heat: +0%
    • Cold: +50%
    • Electricity: -25%
    • Toxin: -25%
    • Void: +0%
    • Gas: -25%
    • Magnetic: -50%
    • Corrosive: +25%
    • Viral: +0%
    • Blast: +0%
    • Radiation: +75%

Shields Revised:

Shield gating is a wonderful mechanic that has added further distinction between armour and shields, but it has some glaring issues. The issues clearly arise when you look into how it works with different shield values. The gating invulnerability is two fixed amounts depending on if the shields were partially or fully recharged, but the amount of shields in question does not have any effect on it. Having more shields does not help increase the invulnerability period, and having more also means that shields take longer to recharge. So having more shields effectively punishes you with the gating period, since you wait longer to get the same benefit.

Shield Gating:

  • Shield gate now has a cooldown that only resets when out of combat for a short duration.
    • shield gate is consumed upon shields being entirely depleted, it is only replenished once the recharge delay is met
    • shields are replenished instantly to 100% after being out of combat (no damage taken) for a short delay
      • 2.0s delay for partially depleted shields
      • 4.0s delay for fully depleted shields
      • upon shield recharge delay being met shield-gates are active again, this is the only way to reset the gate
        once the shields have been depleted and the shield-gate "consumed"
         
  • Shield gating duration now scales depending on the amount of max shields and also in some instances, the current over-shields value.
    • shield gating has a base duration of 100ms
      • shield gating duration increased by 1ms for each point of max shields
    • if shields are depleted in one damage instance then the duration is
      increased by 1ms for each point of over-shields depleted (only if over-shields are active)

 

Note: some outlier frames may need to be changed to work properly with these changes (Hildryn, Grendel), just as every frame would need to be looked at for armour issues as well.

This this would be a very large buff to shields overall, allowing you to benefit from increased shields, so the base duration of the gating should be lowered. This makes it so building shields no longer punishes you, and now actively rewards you with a potentially longer invulnerability period. This can find use on Warframes that only need short bursts of survivability, as opposed to up-front tankiness. You will be able to build for more shields, affording you a longer grace period when being bursted down with heavy damage suddenly. Much like with above, how armour received resistance changes to balance it more around the new design, shields will also receive an update to their resistances.

  • Shield resistance modifiers are being changed to be similar in design to the new armour resistances.

Shield Resistance Changes:

  • Three unique shield types.
    • Shields
    • Proto Shields
    • Tenno Shields
       
  • Each shield type now has the following resistances (except for Tenno Shields, -25% across the board to incoming damage).
    • 0 x -75%
    • 2 x -50%
    • 2 x -25%
    • 4 x +0%
      • (void not counted here as it's the true neutral)
    • 2 x +25%
    • 2 x +50%
    • 1 x +75%
       
  • Shields:
    • Impact: +50%
    • Puncture: -50%
    • Slash: +0%
    • Heat: +0%
    • Cold: +75%
    • Electricity: +0%
    • Toxin: +25%
    • Void: +0%
    • Gas: +50%
    • Magnetic: +25%
    • Corrosive: -25%
    • Viral: +0%
    • Blast: -25%
    • Radiation: -50%
       
  • Proto Shields:
    • Impact: +0%
    • Puncture: +0%
    • Slash: -25%
    • Heat: -50%
    • Cold: +25%
    • Electricity: +75%
    • Toxin: +25%
    • Void: +0%
    • Gas: +0%
    • Magnetic: +50%
    • Corrosive: -50%
    • Viral: -25%
    • Blast: +50%
    • Radiation: +0%

Health Revised:

Much like with the above shield and armour resistance changes, I went through and standardized the health types. Prior to this, there existed seven different health types outside of the Tenno Flesh. This is redundant and serves no purpose beyond obfuscating the entire health pool system, especially considering the minimal differences between the health types. For this reason I have dumbed the health types down, now there is one unique health type per faction, as well as a health type for inorganic health based units that can be used across any faction.

Health Resistance Changes:

  • One unique health type per faction, as well as one health type for inorganic health units (robotic).
    • Grineer: Cloned Flesh
    • Corpus: Flesh
    • Infested: Infested Flesh
    • Tenno: Tenno Flesh
    • Any Faction: Inorganic
       
  • Each health type now has the following resistances (except for Tenno Flesh, +0% across the board to incoming damage).
    • 0 x -75%
    • 1 x -50%
    • 1 x -25%
    • 8 x +0%
      • (void not counted here as it's the true neutral)
    • 2 x +25%
    • 1 x +50%
    • 0 x +75%
       
  • Inorganic:
    • Impact: +0%
    • Puncture: +25%
    • Slash: -25%
    • Heat: +0%
    • Cold: +0%
    • Electricity: +50%
    • Toxin: -50%
    • Void: +0%
    • Gas: +0%
    • Magnetic: +0%
    • Corrosive: +0%
    • Viral: +0%
    • Blast: +0%
    • Radiation: +25%
       
  • Flesh:
    • Impact: -25%
    • Puncture: +0%
    • Slash: +25%
    • Heat: +0%
    • Cold: +0%
    • Electricity: +0%
    • Toxin: +50%
    • Void: +0%
    • Gas: -50%
    • Magnetic: +0%
    • Corrosive: +0%
    • Viral: +25%
    • Blast: +0%
    • Radiation: +0%
       
  • Cloned Flesh:
    • Impact: +0%
    • Puncture: +0%
    • Slash: +25%
    • Heat: +50%
    • Cold: +0%
    • Electricity: +0%
    • Toxin: +0%
    • Void: +0%
    • Gas: +0%
    • Magnetic: -50%
    • Corrosive: -25%
    • Viral: +25%
    • Blast: +0%
    • Radiation: +0%
       
  • Infested Flesh:
    • Impact: +0%
    • Puncture: +0%
    • Slash: +25%
    • Heat: +25%
    • Cold: +0%
    • Electricity: +0%
    • Toxin: +0%
    • Void: +0%
    • Gas: +50%
    • Magnetic: +0%
    • Corrosive: +0%
    • Viral: -25%
    • Blast: +0%
    • Radiation: -50%

Enemy Scaling Revised:

Removing armour in favour of falling back on the resistance types already in the game as a sort of pseudo armour will open up lots of design diversity. This opens up a new and much more unique second component to enemy design and balancing, and that is that they will not only be balancing specific enemies among a specific faction around their base values alone, but also their percentage total of each type of their effective pools (total combined health, armour, and shield values) as a specific type. This would mean for some enemies even among the same faction, there would be greatly differing effective builds. An example of this is demonstrated below.

  • Heavy Gunner: 40% health 60% ferrite armour
    • optimal weaponry would be tuned for ferrite armour with some
      decent health resistance damage types or procs on it
  • Bombard: 80% alloy armour 20% health
    • consider using weaponry tuned for alloy armour as a majority of
      this enemy's health is of that type, the health can be brute forced
      with any damage
  • Lancer: 60% health 40% ferrite armour
    • unit is a roughly even breakup or ferrite and health and should
      be dealt with appropriately, you can build for either health or
      ferrite armour and then brute force the remaining pool, or do
      a hybridized health pool/armour pool build
  • Butcher: 80% health 20% ferrite armour
    • consider using weaponry meant for healthy units
  • Scorpion: 50% health 50% ferrite armour
  • Some new Grineer unit: 20% health 40% alloy armour 40% shields
    • consider bringing weapons tuned for dispatching shields and alloy armour
      and can ignore the health pool portion as it's a minority on this enemy

Along side tuning the specific unit base values, they can play with design like the example above to greatly increase the diversity of what you're rewarded for building for. This can be seen above in the case of the Bombard, it has a massive amount of it's effective pools as armour, so you would want to consider building for the armour to kill this enemy, since only 20% of it's effective health is health you don't need to worry about building around the health, just the armour. You just build for armour bonuses then brute force the small amount of remaining health the unit would have once you break it's armour bar. There will of course still be smaller fodder units, and these will not need to be considered as heavily as they're just much weaker over all than the "heavy" units that will show up. Despite the Grineer faction still being primarily armoured, playing with giving their units differing percentage break downs of their total effective pools. This means even among factions there is a great diversity to builds, and you will potentially even consider bringing differing builds on all equipped weapons to deal with the differing enemy types through out the missions as they pop up. This is a much healthier, more engaging, and over-all more rewarding enemy design.

To effectively balance the enemy factions like this you would need to first and most importantly rework their scaling entirely. Enemies will be balanced off of their base values as well as considering the breakup of pool types as percentages. The following is a graph of the current health, armour, and shield scaling. These formulas all need to be made equal, otherwise no matter what enemies will not be balanced against one another at all levels of play. If health armour and shield scaling are to remain separate formulas, despite them all working as effective health pools, enemies would still differ in strength as levels change. If you keep the current shield scaling then a shielded unit with 66% health and 33% shields would have roughly 80% health 20% shields around level 100. This is very poor design, meaning you need to worry less about shields than health, even on heavily shielded units.

latest.png

current enemy level scaling for health, shields, and armour

Along with being made to have equal level scaling, the scaling multiplier should be increased drastically. Currently a level 9,999 Corpus Tech only has 1,150,000 effective health, this enemy can be easily killed by just a few headshots with quite a few different weapons in the game, even without external buffs. This shows just how weak enemy scaling really is, and since armour scaling is being removed and now armour affects ehp in the same way that shields and health do, effective health ranges should be roughly equal across the board at all levels. Once they are equalized, and the scaling is level across the board, then scaling can be brought up drastically. Scaling should be increased by about 10x what it currently is, this would bring the effective health values at level 9,999, which should be considered a tough level to compete at, to a healthy level which could then be further tweaked if needed.

With current base values across factions, they're balanced to have base level "fodder" enemies between 100-200 ehp. For the heavier units, they seem to be sitting around 800 ehp. These should be these target values considered when adjusting the base values of enemies or adding new ones. With the effective health insanity that is the armour damage reduction gone, the game will be much easier to balance.

Status 3.0 / Status Efficacy:

 

Suggested Core Changes;

  • Condition Overload: damage against the target is increased by (40 * n)%.
    • now a universal mod, can be used on any weapon type
    • n = number of unique status procs affecting target
       
  • Procs are split into two types, buff & debuff procs, or damage procs.
    • Status Efficacy: fire-rate affects how powerful your debuff procs are.
       
  • Procs are no longer affected by critical hits.
     
  • Status procs apply before the direct hit damage of any attack is calculated.
     
  • Status duration mods changed, "status duration" is now "status damage".

There is also a very specific issue that is related to melee, and that is the Condition Overload mod. This is a mod that is core to all melee builds due to the sheer raw power that it grants, and it ends up taking up a slot in every melee build while also significantly boosting the power of melee weapons above that of guns and other weapon types. To address these issues I suggest that Condition Overload be changed from additive base damage, to a separate multiplier. Now condition overload is an optional mod to boost status weapons, meaning it is no longer a mandatory mod that replaces other base damage mods, rendering them obsolete in most cases. Along with this it will of course also be made a "universal" mod, allowing it to be applied to any weapon in the game. This means weapons outside of the melee class will actually be able to compete in power.

Status Efficacy

There are now two types of status procs, buffs/debuffs and damage procs. Buffs/debuffs are things like viral and corrosive, whereas damage buffs would be things such as Electricity or Heat. Procs are no longer given bonuses by critical hits, they are now instead affected by the "status damage" stat, all status duration mods are converted to status damage. A new feature dubbed status efficacy is to be added, this feature is an "efficacy multiplier" which is based on any weapon's base fire-rate. For charged weapons the charge rate affects it, as well as how fully completed the charge was, and for melee they're just affected by the attack speed. This multiplier serves as a bonus to the power of debuff procs, converting debuff procs to "partial procs". Partial procs will only be for debuffs, partial procs means if you get a viral proc, with a weapon that has an efficacy of 0.5, you now only add half a viral proc. These of course can stack as they do now, so having two half procs adds to a full viral proc, however partial procs have no effect and will not be shown in the status bar UI above health bars. Having partial procs does not mean you can not fully cap a status, it just means you apply debuffs slower/quicker based on the efficacy multiplier for said weapon.

Debuff Procs Application

  • 1 proc: affected by 1 stack of debuff proc
  • 1.7 procs: affected by 1 stack of debuff proc
  • 2 procs: affected by 2 stacks of debuff proc
  • 2.5 procs: affected by 2 stacks of debuff proc

unknown_1.png
As you can see by the graph above, the more frequently a weapon is able to shoot, the lower it's status efficacy will be, but what is status efficacy? Status efficacy will be a value that serves as a multiplier for debuffing status procs. This stat serves to equalize the power discrepancy between status procs on slow weapons, as currently if you compare any slower weapon to say, a beam, it will absolutely pale in comparison. This multiplier will be based solely on the weapon's base fire-rate, charge-rate, or attack speed in the case of melee weapons. The reason it should be based off of the base values of these stats is to encourage build diversity, not punishing you for adding more. This keeps room to make more status reliant builds by adding plenty more fire-rate and status chance, without directly reducing the power of your status procs in the process.

  • Dependant on weapon's base fire-rate in the case of fire-arms.
    • due to charged weapons functioning differently, their effective fire-rate
      will be calculated with (fire-rate / [charge speed * fire-rate + 1])
  • Dependant on weapon's base attack speed for melee weapons.

With Efficacy:

Using Boltor Prime (base fire-rate of 10.0), Opticor Vandal (base charge-rate of 0.6s, fire-rate of 2.0), Rakta Cernos (base charge-rate of 0.25s, fire-rate of 1.0)

For my comparisons I am assuming all weapons have 100% status chance, as comparing weapons of different status chances completely invalidates the comparison. The reasoning for me choosing Opticor Vandal and Boltor Prime was simple, I wanted to demonstrate that this still functions properly for charged weapons, and for Boltor it was because a flat 10.0 fire-rate makes the math much easier.

  • Boltor Prime:
    • 10.0 fire-rate = 0.5x efficacy
    • ~0.50x status efficacy
    • 50% decreased debuff proc effectiveness
      • applies 0.5 debuff procs per proc (two procs to apply a single debuff stack)
    • 0.1s per shot, 0.5 stacks per procs, 5 stacks per second. 20 procs to cap a debuff status. 2.0s to fully stack viral.
       
  • Opticor Vandal:
    • effective fire-rate = (1 / [2 * 1 + 1])
      ~0.909 fire-rate = ~5.5x efficacy
    • ~5.5x status efficacy
      • for charged weapons the charge completion
        is multiplied by efficacy for every shot
    • 450% increased debuff proc effectiveness at full charge
      • applies 5.5 procs per proc (one proc to apply 5 debuff stacks)
      • a half charged shot would have it's efficacy multiplied
        by 0.5 (50% charged) resulting in a 2.75x efficacy multiplier
    • 1.1s per shot, 5.5 stacks per proc, 5 stacks per second. Two procs to cap a debuff status. 2.2s to fully stack viral.
      • this would be equal to boltor at 2.0s even to cap a debuff
        but due to the fact it takes longer than a full second to fire
        a shot it will in practice take a fraction longer

         
  • Rakta Cernos:
    • effective fire-rate = (1 / [1 * 1.2 + 1])
      ~0.80 fire-rate = ~6.25x efficacy
    • ~6.25x status efficacy
      • for charged weapons the charge completion
        is multiplied by efficacy for every shot
    • 525% increased debuff proc effectiveness at full charge
      • applies 6.25 procs per proc (one proc to apply 6 debuff stacks)
      • a half charged shot would have it's efficacy multiplied
        by 0.5 (50% charged) resulting in a 3.125x efficacy multiplier
    • 1.25s per shot, 6.25 stacks per proc, 5 stacks per second. Two procs to cap a debuff status. 2.5s to fully stack viral.
      • this would be equal to boltor at 2.0s even to cap a debuff
        but due to the fact it takes longer than a full second to fire
        a shot it will in practice take a fraction longer

These changes mean weapons like snipers and bows are no longer left behind when it comes to using debuff status procs and benefitting from them. As it is right now, charged weapons and weapons with low fire-rate fail to keep up to weapons like beams, shotguns, and some other status monsters. This is due to their low status procs per second, even when comparing two weapons with equal status chances and differing fire-rates. This status efficacy mechanic directly accounts for this weakness, without actually changing the base status of a weapon, since it relies entirely on base fire-rate and only increases how powerful procs are when you get them, but doesn't increase your frequency of said procs.

Status Proc Changes:

To compliment the above status changes, I've also gone through and done a tune up to each and every status proc in the game. With this rework the design goal was to never have anything wasted, as with current status debuff procs are capped at 10 stacks. Debuff procs having caps as opposed to how damage procs don't means you're punished for getting more procs than you need to upkeep 10 stacks of a debuff. As I said, my goal is to never have anything wasted, so in favour of this I opted to entirely remove hard caps from debuff procs. Considering this, high status proc weapons would be incredibly overpowered, being able to stack 100 viral procs very quickly and having 2,500% extra damage to health. With this I shifted to a soft cap for procs, meaning they will never be wasted, but each proc beyond the soft cap of 10 will be reduced by an amount. The formula and some quick math for how these procs scale is as follows.

  • Soft Cap Proc Effectiveness Formula
    • 0.92ⁿ
      • 8% reduction in effectiveness for each proc past the soft cap
      • n = number of procs past soft cap (procs - 10)

Now for an example of how this would affect one of the debuff procs. (rounded values for the sake of the viewer's eyes)

  • Viral: 25% bonus damage per proc
    • 5 procs: 125% damage bonus
       
    • 10 procs: 250% damage bonus
      • 11th proc adds 23.00% damage
      • 12th proc adds 21.16% damage
      • 13th proc adds 19.47% damage
      • 14th proc adds 17.91% damage
      • 15th proc adds 16.48% damage
         
    • 15 procs: 348.01% damage bonus
      • without the soft cap this would be a 375% bonus
         
    • 49th viral proc grants less than 1% bonus damage
       
    • 9th proc past cap has ~50% effectiveness
    • 17th proc past cap has ~25% effectiveness
    • 28th proc past cap has ~10% effectiveness
    • 56th proc past cap has ~1% effectiveness (for viral this would mean 0.25% damage bonus)

Note: the damage values seen in these reworked procs is the same as the current damage over time, just split up into four ticks per second. The only damage over time value that was changed at all in these notes from the current function would be slash. The combined elements also currently do not scale with elemental modifiers at all and should, so some of them also had this small part added so they would be in-line with the other procs and scale similarly.

  • Impact: this is typically regarded as the meme status, not really contributing in any way, sure it CC's enemies, but in the current meta where CC doesn't really matter and it's all about damage and one-shots, it leaves much to be desired. That said though! This proc is already unique, and I believe the direction of it is good, except the execution was definitely flopped. The main issue with this status as it is has to do with the health threshold associated with the mercy finisher. This status staggers and then builds towards a finisher which is fun and cool, but it can only currently force a finisher on enemies below 5% hp. This is incredibly bad, not only does this mean you're basically never getting them because you're almost always dealing >5% of the enemies max hp in one shot. This also means it would simply be easier to just put one more bullet in them to turn them into a corpse instead of having to run up and hit X on the prompt, since they're already below 5% hp. This could be addressed by removing the hp threshold entirely, and just making it roll for the finisher without the hp threshold as well. This would mean in 10 impact procs you'd have a guaranteed mercy finisher, which is a guaranteed kill, which could definitely be overpowered. To address this you would simply reduce the finisher chance from 10% to ~3%, and prevent it from increasing the finisher chance bonus above about 30%, so subsequent impact procs after capping the ten stacks would have a 30% chance to force a finisher, and the numbers could be more finely tuned from there. These changes would make the finisher from impact procs actually prevalent, and with some of the fancy parazon mods we have these days, could definitely make for some interesting builds and such.
    • Stack cap of 10.
    • Procs have a duration of 6 seconds.
    • Every proc staggers.
      • airborne enemies will be knocked to ground
    • Every proc has (3 * n)% chance to force a Mercy Finisher on the target.
      • n = number of impact procs affecting target

... slash and puncture are similar but unique in that one ignores all damage type modifiers with it's procs, and the other increases your modifier values when attacking said target, both effective for dealing with armoured units just with different approaches

  • Puncture: as the name would imply, is meant to puncture armour. Currently for some reason it reduces the target's damage output, this can seem convenient but in actual practice does not find much use. In an attempt to bring this more in-tune with how puncture should feel (as in, it punctures), I opted to make it reduce the targets damage type modifiers. I originally thought of allowing the damage to bypass armour in some way, but I feel that bypassing shields and armour is an unhealthy mechanic if added to a specific proc. Lowering the resistance values will allow you to greatly increase your direct hit damage against armoured units, and due to the way this works as well as all of the previously explained armour changes, this is just as effective for breaking through armour at level 9,999 as level 100 so long as you have the damage output.
    • No stack cap.
    • Procs have a duration of 6 seconds.
    • Every proc creates a small visual marker around the point of impact called a "breaking point".
      • breaking points can overlap and will stack
      • breaking points visual takes from energy colour
      • no cap on how many breaking points there can be
    • Targeting a breaking point grants bonus effects to your attack.
      • attacks will have punch through when targeting breaking points (for that enemy only)
      • damage has a +(3 * n)% bonus to all damage type modifiers
        • this means your procs change the damage type modifiers such as the -75% that
          electricity suffers against alloy to -72% with a single proc, then -69% with two procs
        • n = number of breaking points your bullet hits at the point of impacting the enemy
           
  • Slash: with the aforementioned changes to armour and how it works, slash is going to be changed a fair amount. Slash is typically regarded as overpowered, this is only due to the severe amount of effective health the armour damage reduction can grant at higher levels. Since armour will no longer have a scaling damage reduction, slash will no longer be the only proc type you really need. However since each damage proc needs to have a unique component, I believe slash should in some form keep it's armour bypass. It will ignore all type damage type modifiers for the damage over time procs it inflicts, allowing it to be a sort of universal damage over time effect that doesn't excel in any particular area.
    • No stack cap.
    • Procs have a duration of 6 seconds.
    • Every proc triggers a damage over time effect called "bleed".
      • 12.5% base damage * (1 + slash modifier) per tick
      • 4 ticks per second
      • proc damage ignores damage type modifiers
        • this means your damage is not affected by damage type modifiers such as
          the -75% that electricity suffers against alloy

... up next is the base elements, void is technically one as well but also unique in that it can't be added via any normal means and can't be combined, for this reason i excluded void from having a damaging component to it's procs, however to keep it standardized, all base elements, aside from void as i just explained, will have a damage component to them

  • Heat: has a unique stacking function that I believe it should keep, but since armour is being reworked it's armour strip component will need to be taken out. The damage over time effect is being shifted to 4 ticks per second, as all damage over time procs in this update are.
    • No stack cap.
    • Procs have a duration of 6 seconds.
      • procs do not have individual timer, they are combined together and the duration is refreshed
        for subsequent procs
    • Every proc triggers a damage over time effect called "burn".
      • 12.5% base damage * (1 + heat modifier) per tick
      • 4 ticks per second
      • causes target to panic, effectively stunning them
      • subsequent procs add their damage to the damage of the existing heat proc
        and refresh it's duration (effectively infinite scaling with continual procs)
         
  • Cold: cold status procs are quite unique in their nature of crowd control, however they are incredibly underpowered and need lots to be considered good and sit among the rest. The slow should to be changed to a 10% slow to enemies, this of course can stack up to 10 times. Once the enemy reaches 10 stacks they will be encased in ice, the next source of damage while they are at 10 stacks will shatter the ice. The next incoming source of damage will be multiplied and shatter the ice. Upon shattering and damaging the main target, they will revert back to 4 cold procs (40% slow) with a full six second duration, and will shoot out 7 small ice fragments/icicles. On impact these icicles will deal damage and then shatter, leaving behind a chilly zone. Since this proc resets upon 10 stacks, it will never be truly be capped on stacks, meaning consecutive procs are never wasted, which is a healthy mechanic to have and it would put cold procs in a very good spot cementing it among the other base elemental procs.
    • Stack cap of 10.
    • Procs have a duration of 6 seconds.
    • Every proc adds a stack of the "frost" debuff to the target.
      • enemies are slowed by (10 * n)%
        • n = number of frost stacks affecting target
      • at 10 stacks enemies are encased in ice and afflicted with "permafrost"
    • Shooting a target afflicted by permafrost shatters the ice, dealing damage and sending out icicles.
      • the damage source to shatter the ice is multiplied by (1 + cold modifier)
      • upon shattering resets target to 4 cold procs
      • upon shattering shoots out 7 small icicles, each dealing 20% of the weapon's base damage * (1 + cold modifier)
        • upon collision with terrain or an enemy, these icicles create a frost zone
          • frost zones have a duration of 6 seconds
          • frost zones add 0.25 cold procs to enemies for each quarter of a second they stand in them
             
  • Electricity: electricity is already quite a solid proc type, being an area of effect as well as having an electricity multiplier scaling component. All damage status procs should have a unique component to them, except electricity's isn't the only area of effect damage proc. In it's current iteration electricity procs just deal damage in a radius around the target, while this is nice, it's quite bland and could stand to have some more flare added, it also functions exactly like gas does in this way. Similar to how in real life electricity is known for arcing between things, I believe instead of essentially just dealing damage in a circle, it should be changed to sort of form tethers/arcs between enemies that can damage any enemies caught in them. This would make it more reliable with it's area effect since it arcs between enemies instead of just being stuck to the main target.
    • No stack cap.
    • Procs have a duration of 6 seconds.
    • Every proc triggers a damage over time effect called "shock".
      • deals 12.5% base damage * (1 + electricity modifier) per tick
      • 4 ticks per second
      • stuns all targets
      • every proc creates an arc of electricity to a random enemy within 4 * (1 + [2 * electricity modifier]) meters
        • arc beam has a radius of 0.3 * (1 + [electricity modifier * 0.3]) meters
        • any targets caught in the arc will be inflicted the damage
        • there is no limit to number of arcs, but only one can exist between any two specific enemies
        • when choosing an arc target it will prioritize those furthest away (to maximize beam length and potential to hit multiple enemies)
           
  • Toxin: with the removal of toxin bypassing shields, there is lots to be changed and added. Due to toxins only being able to affect organic things, I was thinking of some form of health based damage bonus for toxin. I was thinking of how old viral reduced max hp by a percentage, and really liked this mechanic. However the way old viral functioned was quite poorly balanced, only being a single stack proc that refreshes. I opted to take the old viral effect and squash it down, making it infinitely stacking along-side all other statuses in this update. By this I mean reducing the enemy's max health by a small amount per stack, on top of the damage over time you inflict.
    • No stack cap.
    • Procs have a duration of 6 seconds.
    • Every proc triggers a damage over time effect called "poison".
      • 12.5% base damage * (1 + toxin modifier) per tick
      • 4 ticks per second
    • Every proc adds a stack of the "weakness" debuff.
      • decay reduces the enemy's current and max health by 5% per stack
        • enemy health = current * (0.95ⁿ)
          • n = number of toxin procs affecting target
             
  • Void: is honestly a very interesting one. It's neat and has a unique mechanic, essentially making mini Mag bubbles. I love this effect and think it definitely deserves to stay, but Void lacks something else that makes it special, and the procs don't scale beyond one, which is slightly frustrating. Despite not being able to get void damage from almost any sources, it still deserves to be a properly balanced effect. I believe the part of the void and how it decays things is quite neat, such as it's effects on Sentients and those described from the horrors among the Zariman Ten Zero. Much like how there are now sort of status sub-sections, there's the base elements all being damage with a unique component, and then corrosive magnetic viral for the three respective pool types, I wanted to mimic the effects of toxin but for armour and shields. You may say that the reducing it by a percentage and increasing damage output (toxin vs viral) are effectively similar, but they do have unique interactions with things such as percentage health damage, as well as being able to synergize well together.
    • No stack cap.
    • Procs have a duration of 6 seconds.
    • Every proc triggers a bullet attractor around the impacted area.
      • bullet attractor absorbs all bullet that enter
    • Every proc adds a stack of "void decay".
      • decay reduces the enemy's current and max armour and shields by 5% per stack
        • enemy armour & shields = current * (0.95ⁿ)
          • n = number of void procs affecting target

... there are sort of "subsections" to the damage types, next up we have the 3 main pool type debuffers with their niche regeneration effects

  • Viral: is currently the be all end all in the meta. Despite having the same scaling as magnetic procs do for increasing damage, magnetic procs only apply to shields, which only a small chunk of the enemies in the game even have. Every enemy has health, but few have shields, this makes viral much more prevalent for use, and is the main reason it's so incredibly popular. Along with magnetic, the scaling of this proc should be adjusted to be linear, giving the same damage bonus for each consecutive proc, up to it's cap of 10. This would be done, like above, by lowering the single proc damage bonus from 100% to 25%, shifting to 10 stack bonus to 250% and bringing this status more in-line with the rest in terms of balance. Even with the numbers changed, however, there is still one glaring issue with this status proc, it can't stack beyond 10. I believe it should have the cap removed entirely allowing viral procs to not be capped in their effectiveness, while also making it much more balanced with the rest of the damage system.
    • No stack cap.
    • Procs have a duration of 6 seconds.
    • Every proc applies one stack of the "illness" debuff.
      • increases all incoming damage to the target's health by (25 * n)%
        • n = number of viral procs affecting target
    • Every proc grants the Tenno the "resilient" buff.
      • regenerate (3.0 + (5 * toxin modifier) + 1% of max health per second for 4 + (5 * cold modifier) seconds.
      • this buff cannot stack, subsequent procs will refresh the duration
         
  • Corrosive: much like some of the other statuses, due to the depth of changes to the core balance system, corrosive essentially needs a complete re-write. This will be a simple one though, basically bringing it in line with some of the other generic debuff statuses, just this one works for armour!
    • No stack cap.
    • Procs have a duration of 6 seconds.
    • Every proc applies one stack of the "corrode" debuff.
      • increases all incoming damage to the target's armour by (25 * n)%
        • n = number of corrosive procs affecting target
    • Every proc grants the Tenno the "mending" buff.
      • regenerate 3.0 + (5 * toxin modifier) + 1% of max armour per second for 4 + (5 * electricity modifier) seconds.
      • this buff cannot stack, subsequent procs will refresh the duration
         
  • Magnetic: magnetic is an incredibly strong status for shielded enemies, it's issues come from the fact that it does absolutely nothing if an enemy has no shields. Now, thinking on how magnetic procs affect us, the Tenno, they drain our energy. Since enemies don't work off of energy, draining their energy isn't really an option, but granting us energy is definitely a possibility. I think with a sort of energy regeneration effect from magnetic, this would allow it to have a niche roll in loadouts as well as maintain it's already good strength against shields. This as well as making the procs scale linearly as opposed to 100% from the first proc and 25% from each subsequent proc, with consideration of the earlier mentioned enemy design changes, magnetic should be relevant and actually see use in much content, especially corpus.
    • No stack cap.
    • Procs have a duration of 6 seconds.
    • Every proc applies one stack of the "static" debuff.
      • increases all incoming damage to the targets shields by (25 * n)%
        • n = number of magnetic procs affecting target
      • pauses natural shield regeneration effects on the target
    • Every proc grants the Tenno the "leech" buff.
      • regenerate 1.0 + (2 * electricity modifier) energy per second for 4 + (5 * cold modifier) seconds.
      • this buff cannot stack, subsequent procs will refresh the duration

... and now we have the damage procs, one of which is also a form of debuff and crowd control

  • Gas: needs to have have it's damage output buffed, as it is it's just too weak. Some other issues with it are how the radius of the gas clouds scales, and the fact that they follow around the enemy that it's procced on. As it's a combined element, this does open it up to the potential of having both toxin scaling and heat scaling, which allows for many neat things to be done. The radius of the gas could be reliant on the heat mod scaling, while the damage of the procs would have the toxin scaling added back in like gas had before. This would increase the damage output of the status, bringing it in-line with the other damage procs, making it much more useful, as it's current version is vastly out damaged by every other proc in the game. If gas had the damage component scaling with elemental mods again, then it would be a fantastic status already. The proc radius scaling with stacks is not great, it punishes you on weapons that only apply a single high damage proc. This should be removed in favour of the radius scaling off of your heat mods, adding an interesting new component to this combined element. The lingering gas clouds should also be set in place where they are spawned, as opposed to following the enemy around. Then as enemies step into or out of clouds their UI will reflect how many clouds are currently damaging them.
    • No stack cap.
    • Procs have a duration of 6 seconds.
    • Every proc triggers a stationary gas cloud that deals damage to all enemies inside of it.
      • 12.5% base damage * (1 + toxin modifier) per tick
      • 4 ticks per second
      • clouds have a radius of (3 + heat modifier) meters
         
  • Blast: blast procs should trigger an immediate damage instance in a radius from the hit position. Now if we are to compare it to the damage over time elements, with total damage per proc of 3.0x your weapons modded base damage, contrasting their damage over time nature this would be an instantaneous damage instance, so the numbers should definitely be lower to make up for that as you don't have to wait. In addition to this, blast would be made to scale with elemental mods of both heat and cold, heat would affect the radius of the explosion, and cold would increase the damage scaling. The numbers I feel should be somewhere right around 0.625x your weapon's modded base damage, which is the equivalent of five damage ticks from a damage over time effect, which takes just over a second.
    • No stacking.
    • Procs have no duration.
    • Every proc deals immediate damage in the area surrounding the target.
      • deals 62.5% of base damage * (1 + cold modifier)
      • blast radius of (3 + heat modifier) meters
         
  • Radiation: the first issue I would address with radiation, is making the damage bonus scaling for enemies linear, this would reduce it from 550% to a 500% damage increase total, which is still a very large damage buff, especially considering all the armour and scaling changes. For this reason I believe it should also be lowered to 25% per stack, and should effectively force aggro for nearby enemies. Moving on from that, radiation is a strong element, has a fun and unique effect, but it's capped by 10 stacks, as some others are. I believe to address this, the radiation procs could serve as a form of damage. To do this radiation procs would be made to create a damaging aura around the afflicted enemy, this aura would absorb all damage the enemy has taken while affected and projects this outward. The aura radius could scale with the heat modifier, and the damage multiplier to the aura would be affected by electricity.
    • No stack cap.
    • Procs have a duration of 6 seconds.
    • Every proc applies one stack of the "confusion" debuff.
      • confusion makes the target faction neutral, they can receive damage
        from and deal damage to anything
      • forces the nearest unit(s) to attack the target
        • taunt affects the nearest n units within 8 + (n / 5) meters
          • n = number of radiation procs affecting target
      • increases outgoing and incoming damage from would be allies by (25 * n)%
        • n = number of radiation procs affecting target
    • Irradiated enemies absorb incoming damage and project it outward in a damaging aura.
      • while an enemy is irradiated, all incoming damage is stored
      • deals 25% of stored damage per tick
        • all damage dealt to target is stored, this includes critical
          hits as well as damage from status procs
      • 4 ticks per second
      • aura has a radius of (3 + heat modifier) meters
      • aura damage is increased by (10 * n * [1 + electricity modifier])%
        • n = number of radiation procs affecting target

Conclusion:

Well, that was a lot to take in. I have spent plenty of time doing math, pondering, and coming up with ideas for all of this. I've taken feedback from many people, and this is what I was able to churn out. There may be some slight issues with this balancing but those can of course be tweaked once implemented and tested, I am not a dev from DE so I am not able to implement and test these numbers and tweaks on my own. I don't really know what to put here, brain is kinda dead, took a bit to write. Hope y'all enjoyed reading, looking forward to any and all feedback. Thanks to anyone who made it to the end, you taking the time to read this means a lot to me! Feedback is very appreciated, I love this game and want to see it thrive. Seeing these changes implemented in any form (especially the main offenders like armour and enemy scaling) would be absolutely fantastic.

Edited by scam
whew
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hace 45 minutos, Maggy dijo:

Every proc creates a small visual marker around the point of impact called a "puncture".

So puncture's effect is puncture? what about something like "breaking point".

Im not so sure about the magnetic but overall

maxresdefault.jpg

Edited by VoidArkhangel
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3 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

So puncture's effect is puncture? what about something like "breaking point".

 

I didn't put too much thought into the names haha, I like that though! Status names were just what was in my head at the time of getting this all down on paper, gonna update that real quick cuz that's much much better than puncture. :clem:

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A very interesting post, I'll admit I didn't read every single word, but I did get the whole core game mechanics rebalance idea.

The thing is: I don't think I've ever seen a developer changing these things based on what a forum post says, they might take some concept ideas from the forums but I think that's where they stop.

Before Inaros, there was this "Beast" frame with no shields and lots of health created by a forum user that was even earned a spot during a Prime Time, there was also another forum user that claimed he created Grendel, and back when DE was asking for ideas for a new community created warframe, the one we know as Xaku, I suggested a warframe that had cooldowns for the abilities instead of energy, and now we have Lavos (not that I'm saying Lavos was my idea)

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see some (much needed) changes to warframe, but as I mentioned before, don't think it will happen anytime soon.

Edit: I think the no stack cap part is a bit too much, we are already very overpowered

Edited by (XBOX)Rylor Threev
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Everything sounds very good, just needs a little bit of tweeking. <3

Now ... lets talk about the IMPACT ! :angry: 
As of now, how mercy kill / finisher works is, that it is a perfect execute, killing any anymy that has 5% or lower hp (be it 100hp or 100 milion hp).
And since the proc would cap at 10 stacks and be X% to open them to a mercy kill, you in theory just roll the X% over and over again with impact procs untill you "get the right roll".
This would be a huge problem, since
a) You in theory can kill even level cap enemies since the mercy kill ignores the amount of hp the enemy has.
b) Since its a proc, you can refresh it as many time and as fast as you want (this needs to be changed a little, like "further procs only refresh the duration and do not refresh the chance on opening enemies to a mercy kill / finisher).

Solution to the problem would be
a) Changing the impact proc effect
b) Changing how mercy kill / finisher works alongside with parazon modding 

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No thank you, the whole point of having different factions is to build for them. If you don't like armor then strip it or make them more susceptible to damage via the 1000 ways we have via frames and elements. 

Element damage like blast and impact and puncture could use a tweak or a rework, sure, but I disagree with game wide stat changes just because someone doesn't like dealing with armor. 

If people can solo Steel path Mot there's literally no issue.

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4 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

No thank you, the whole point of having different factions is to build for them. If you don't like armor then strip it or make them more susceptible to damage via the 1000 ways we have via frames and elements. 

Element damage like blast and impact and puncture could use a tweak or a rework, sure, but I disagree with game wide stat changes just because someone doesn't like dealing with armor. 

If people can solo Steel path Mot there's literally no issue.

This was meant to bring diversity to the game, so that ppl dont have to use the 10 or so frames for every long run mission.
Also diversity to modding, bcs ... well lets be honest everything is just viral slash ....

As of now, this is just an idea, everything can be still tweeked / changed. The fact that you dont like it, doesnt meant that its bad, I also dont like some parts from the original post.

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9 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

No thank you, the whole point of having different factions is to build for them. If you don't like armor then strip it or make them more susceptible to damage via the 1000 ways we have via frames and elements. 

 

Hey guess what, there's a meta build for most guns/melees, and the one of the only things you should swap around on it is the bane for which you're fighting against. There's also the fact that you never have to swap out your bane of grineer, as the other factions are bent completely over even without actually swapping the bane slot out.

 

Why not change effectiveness to other elements like OP suggested to have more build variety that actually matters?

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Separating Critical hits from Status is not something I will get behind as that will just not feel good to use in practice. I really don't see the problem where gear progresses from weapons with:

  1. Neither good Crit nor Status
  2. Having alright Crit or Status
  3. Having both Crit and Status

Separating Crit and Status will actually cripple many weapons, and really shoehorn builds the same way the current system does, especially if efficacy is added. Weapons like the Synapse or Amprex will suffer immensely here compared to the Convectrix or Phantasma more than they do now.

The proposed changes really just appear to make the power ceiling problem in this game even more apparent as well, and enemies are already weak since Warframe Revised. The problem Warframe's combat has fallen into is that the power limit in the arsenal lacks meaning or use. The Steel Path was a slight crack at this, but that offers little depth once the starchart is completed. The other unavoidable problem is that there are too many damage types. Making "everything viable" is the approach that led Melee into the poor state it is in now where they are almost all too powerful with many dealing primarily Slash damage.

On the part about changing enemy scaling, I am of the opinion Armored enemies are too weak, and Health + Shield and Health based enemies need to be massively scaled up to compete with armored targets. Having some factions harder to deal with than others makes perfect sense to me, and that is only natural. If you make every faction feel similar in eHP, then they are mostly just a bunch of skinned enemies with few variance aside from enemies like Ancients and Sentients. Enemy diversity should be a huge priority as well to combat the power ceiling. 

I really enjoyed reading this, and lots of good thought was put here, but I am doubtful this would have any practical impact on the way the game is played. One week after these hypothetical changes are out, math will solve the question of what kind of build is optimal, and you are back to square one with weak enemies and insanely powerful weapons with a lack of meaning or engagement with enemies.

There are just way too many changes here that disrupt the investment of hundreds of thousands of hours across the playerbase.

Edited by Voltage
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5 hours ago, Maggy said:

a very unique mechanic

Sorry, you can't use the adverb very with the absolute adjective unique. "Hail, Webster!" (just kidding)

Joking aside, I want to read this post, I want to understand it. Well researched, nicely prepared, and smartly formatted. However my A.D.D. won't allow me to concentrate enough to read the whole post. I hope your efforts will bring balance to the Force. May the Force be with you. :highfive:

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6 hours ago, (XBOX)Rylor Threev said:

A very interesting post, I'll admit I didn't read every single word, but I did get the whole core game mechanics rebalance idea.

The thing is: I don't think I've ever seen a developer changing these things based on what a forum post says, they might take some concept ideas from the forums but I think that's where they stop.

Before Inaros, there was this "Beast" frame with no shields and lots of health created by a forum user that was even earned a spot during a Prime Time, there was also another forum user that claimed he created Grendel, and back when DE was asking for ideas for a new community created warframe, the one we know as Xaku, I suggested a warframe that had cooldowns for the abilities instead of energy, and now we have Lavos (not that I'm saying Lavos was my idea)

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see some (much needed) changes to warframe, but as I mentioned before, don't think it will happen anytime soon.

Edit: I think the no stack cap part is a bit too much, we are already very overpowered

As much as I agree having no cap will make us almost too strong, I think this is alleviated by the fact that you get more extra dps from proccing more damage procs than stacking hundreds of debuff procs. I see the "well DE won't implement any of this" argument lots, and while I agree it's unlikely they will see this or take input from it, I am very hopeful for the potential of that to happen.

 

5 hours ago, XGDbvyg6 said:

Everything sounds very good, just needs a little bit of tweeking. <3

Now ... lets talk about the IMPACT ! :angry: 
As of now, how mercy kill / finisher works is, that it is a perfect execute, killing any anymy that has 5% or lower hp (be it 100hp or 100 milion hp).
And since the proc would cap at 10 stacks and be X% to open them to a mercy kill, you in theory just roll the X% over and over again with impact procs untill you "get the right roll".
This would be a huge problem, since
a) You in theory can kill even level cap enemies since the mercy kill ignores the amount of hp the enemy has.
b) Since its a proc, you can refresh it as many time and as fast as you want (this needs to be changed a little, like "further procs only refresh the duration and do not refresh the chance on opening enemies to a mercy kill / finisher).

Solution to the problem would be
a) Changing the impact proc effect
b) Changing how mercy kill / finisher works alongside with parazon modding 

There may still be some issues with the impact status, that's less of a result of the direct procs and more a result of how Mercy Finishers function. I'm sure some changes could be made to help this work better and not be abusable at higher levels, but at the moment I don't have any ideas.

 

5 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

No thank you, the whole point of having different factions is to build for them. If you don't like armor then strip it or make them more susceptible to damage via the 1000 ways we have via frames and elements. 

Element damage like blast and impact and puncture could use a tweak or a rework, sure, but I disagree with game wide stat changes just because someone doesn't like dealing with armor. 

If people can solo Steel path Mot there's literally no issue.

This would still have you building for factions specifically with damage types, this just reduces the power gap between armour enemies and non-armoured. This power gap is a huge issue with the game as it currently is, the only reason slash is considered strong is because you can entirely bypass it, essentially bypasses the power gap. This however does not address the issue of bringing armoured enemies more in-line with standard units. Armoured units are of course meant to be strong, they are armoured, but this armour is hundreds of times more effective than shields. That combined with the fact that it scales non-linearly in an extra way, that shields don't, mean it's impossible to have a proper balance curve that works at all levels of content. The scaling difference is too drastic.

 

3 hours ago, Voltage said:

Separating Critical hits from Status is not something I will get behind as that will just not feel good to use in practice. I really don't see the problem where gear progresses from weapons with:

  1. Neither good Crit nor Status
  2. Having alright Crit or Status
  3. Having both Crit and Status

Separating Crit and Status will actually cripple many weapons, and really shoehorn builds the same way the current system does, especially if efficacy is added. Weapons like the Synapse or Amprex will suffer immensely here compared to the Convectrix or Phantasma more than they do now.

The proposed changes really just appear to make the power ceiling problem in this game even more apparent as well, and enemies are already weak since Warframe Revised. The problem Warframe's combat has fallen into is that the power limit in the arsenal lacks meaning or use. The Steel Path was a slight crack at this, but that offers little depth once the starchart is completed. The other unavoidable problem is that there are too many damage types. Making "everything viable" is the approach that led Melee into the poor state it is in now where they are almost all too powerful with many dealing primarily Slash damage.

On the part about changing enemy scaling, I am of the opinion Armored enemies are too weak, and Health + Shield and Health based enemies need to be massively scaled up to compete with armored targets. Having some factions harder to deal with than others makes perfect sense to me, and that is only natural. If you make every faction feel similar in eHP, then they are mostly just a bunch of skinned enemies with few variance aside from enemies like Ancients and Sentients. Enemy diversity should be a huge priority as well to combat the power ceiling. 

I really enjoyed reading this, and lots of good thought was put here, but I am doubtful this would have any practical impact on the way the game is played. One week after these hypothetical changes are out, math will solve the question of what kind of build is optimal, and you are back to square one with weak enemies and insanely powerful weapons with a lack of meaning or engagement with enemies.

There are just way too many changes here that disrupt the investment of hundreds of thousands of hours across the playerbase.

The separating status proc damage from critical hits is to reduce the power difference between the standard "hybrid" weapons and guns that are pure status, typically regarded as fodder in Warframe right now (there are some good pure status weapons but they are few and far between). On the issue of enemy scaling being too weak, you can read my above reply to someone about how armour scaling is just incompatible with shield scaling or other forms of scaling. As it is, enemies with armour will always be tankier than units with shields or just raw health. Scaling will need to be looked at as a result from this, but having all of the scaling function similarly means it's actually possible to balance for all types of resistances (health, armour, shields). As it is now, the effective health increase from armour scaling just makes too big of a divide in balancing between factions and types. This rebalance also addresses the issue of weapons that rely solely on raw damage, with poor critical and status stats, being entirely outclassed in any content that isn't status immune bosses like Eidolons.

tldr; enemy scaling will be getting a massive buff to make them feel properly tanky, but armour scaling is brought in-line with shields to fix power discrepancy

There are still issues with enemy engagement, this really is only addressable by adding more interesting and unique enemies, such as the new Deimos enemies like the Saxum and Jugulus.

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1 hour ago, LillyRaccune said:

Sorry, you can't use the adverb very with the absolute adjective unique. "Hail, Webster!" (just kidding)

Joking aside, I want to read this post, I want to understand it. Well researched, nicely prepared, and smartly formatted. However my A.D.D. won't allow me to concentrate enough to read the whole post. I hope your efforts will bring balance to the Force. May the Force be with you. :highfive:

I fixed the grammatical error, am usually baked out of my mind while working on things like these so I tend to make lots of those. Hopefully your A.D.D. will give you a break eventually if you actually do want to read this post, but regardless I appreciate the support. 🧡

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3 minutes ago, ByteCruncher. said:

Now the next part is to rebalance all mods, add specific slots for rivens, utility mods like reload and magazine, and an extra exilus slot

Get DE to hire me first then I'll start working on that. 🤣
On a serious note though I'd absolutely love to go more in depth on other issues with Warframe, and the modding system definitely has lots that could be tweaked, but summoning the motivation to make massive posts like this doesn't happen often, so that most likely won't ever be a thing.

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Thank you for making such an in depth post on this topic. Your suggestion about an extra armor bar, reminds me of the Division health model going from HP with armor damage reduction in Div1, to flat armor plates that gates damage to health in Div2.

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16 minutes ago, f0ba said:

Thank you for making such an in depth post on this topic. Your suggestion about an extra armor bar, reminds me of the Division health model going from HP with armor damage reduction in Div1, to flat armor plates that gates damage to health in Div2.

Yeah! I've seen lots of games with this form of armour recently, that's obviously not the reason I chose to go this route. I just spend tons of time sitting and thinking and like, with the way that the armour damage reduction applies to health means armoured enemies were just always stronger than healthy and shielded enemies. It also means that enemies with out some form of scaling damage reduction to match, will always eventually somewhere in the level curve fall behind in tankiness when compared to armour. They do add an interesting "adaptive" damage reduction to some enemies now, such as the new tankier Corpus railjack goons, or the new big Deimos units. This adaptive reduction gives a percentage damage reduction to incoming damage that is based essentially on your on-paper dps. However even if they attempted to balance non-armoured units with armoured by giving this to more non-armoured enemies, it would not fix the issue, as this reduction scales with the players damage per second, not the enemy's level/armour. There really is no way to balance armour in it's current form with health and shields

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17 minutes ago, Maggy said:

Yeah! I've seen lots of games with this form of armour recently, that's obviously not the reason I chose to go this route. I just spend tons of time sitting and thinking and like, with the way that the armour damage reduction applies to health means armoured enemies were just always stronger than healthy and shielded enemies. It also means that enemies with out some form of scaling damage reduction to match, will always eventually somewhere in the level curve fall behind in tankiness when compared to armour. They do add an interesting "adaptive" damage reduction to some enemies now, such as the new tankier Corpus railjack goons, or the new big Deimos units. This adaptive reduction gives a percentage damage reduction to incoming damage that is based essentially on your on-paper dps. However even if they attempted to balance non-armoured units with armoured by giving this to more non-armoured enemies, it would not fix the issue, as this reduction scales with the players damage per second, not the enemy's level/armour. There really is no way to balance armour in it's current form with health and shields

Easiest way without having to rework any of our current mods would to have armor not scale period, but then our damage multipliers to be reigned in by making more components additive. That was my suggestion anyways. 

1. Armor doesn't scale.

2. Critical Damage and Viral bonuses additive with Serration.

Utility mods can't compete with mods that give an entire new damage multiplier, but if those mods were additive, then we would get the Primed Reach Vs Primed Pressure Point scenario when we already have Condition Overload.

 

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2 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Easiest way without having to rework any of our current mods would to have armor not scale period, but then our damage multipliers to be reigned in by making more components additive. That was my suggestion anyways. 

1. Armor doesn't scale.

2. Critical Damage and Viral bonuses additive with Serration.

Utility mods can't compete with mods that give an entire new damage multiplier, but if those mods were additive, then we would get the Primed Reach Vs Primed Pressure Point scenario when we already have Condition Overload.

 

To me this seems like you're trying to squash the viral slash meta, which I agree with. Then you go and say it should be additive to serration, as should critical damage. To me this seems poorly thought out, are you trying to address the "core mods" issue in builds? For me changing the modding system to some degree would fix this without directly ruining an entire portion of the damage system. They could add separate mod tabs, similar to how we have in the Plexus, and expand the Exilus mods to include more of the quality of life ones and augments and call it a day. I do not see how changing viral and critical damage bonuses to being additive with base damage addresses these issues without creating many more of it's own. I do absolutely agree with what you seem to be trying to accomplish though!

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1 hour ago, ByteCruncher. said:

Now the next part is to rebalance all mods, add specific slots for rivens, utility mods like reload and magazine, and an extra exilus slot

Reload Speed is not utility, Riven Mods don't need their own slot, and a single Exilus is enough. You're still bound to 60 capacity (80 for Kuva weapons).

Rebalancing Mods would be a good idea, except that DE needs to understand ahead of time that the ceiling will be brought down, but player choice will likely be unchanged. There will always be efficiency and optimization, no mod changes will change that.

Some mods are outliers, but even then there is still a massive core issue that even this thread doesn't address. AOE is strictly better than single target with no exception and has been the case for years. It's an inevitable fate for this game that everyone gravitates towards AOE damage sources. No status or damage rework will make the grinlok comparable to a Tonkor in terms of practicality. 

You also need to be careful with respecting the amount of investment the playerbase has put into gear as a whole before throwing random changes into the mix.

Again, I've read all the posts and replies here, but I still fail to  see how these ideas are going to change the game in a positive direction more than a negative one. You're still going to have all the same core problems at play.

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8 minutes ago, Maggy said:

To me this seems like you're trying to squash the viral slash meta, which I agree with. Then you go and say it should be additive to serration, as should critical damage. To me this seems poorly thought out, are you trying to address the "core mods" issue in builds? For me changing the modding system to some degree would fix this without directly ruining an entire portion of the damage system. They could add separate mod tabs, similar to how we have in the Plexus, and expand the Exilus mods to include more of the quality of life ones and augments and call it a day. I do not see how changing viral and critical damage bonuses to being additive with base damage addresses these issues without creating many more of it's own. I do absolutely agree with what you seem to be trying to accomplish though!

Armored enemies are the only enemies that can withstand our cocktail of damage multipliers if not shrug them off with their own bloated eHP multiplier, which requires us to use things like Bleed or armor strip abilities, while Corpus and Infested are so squishy, that any damage will do.

The issue of core mods is that no utility mods will never see the light of day if the opportunity cost is losing out an entire layer of damage multipliers. 

By making Base Damage, Critical Damage and Viral Bonuses additive, it would bring down Hybrid weapons which could exploit both Crit Multipliers and Status Multipliers to be closer in line with other weapons that are Purely Crit, Purely Status or Purely Damage.

IMO Critical Damage and Viral Bonuses aren't really engaging parts of the damage system. They're just free damage multipliers if your gun has the stats to support them. I already feel like Exilus slots are a band-aid to the opportunity cost issue for modding.

The core issue with Warframe's damage system as I see it is that we are in a multipliers arms race with armored enemies.

Below a multiplier and the enemy feels like a wall. Above a multiplier and the enemy is paper.

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  • scam changed the title to Warframe Rebalance // Armour/Health/Shields, Enemy Scaling, Status 3.0

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