Warframe has balance problems, and that's fine

[(PSN)Unstar]

Just to set the tone in case I don't word things perfectly, this is all my subjective opinion, and I'd love to hear yours as well. <3

I see a lot of topics about how Warframe could be better, and I agree with a lot of them.  For example, I think that damage/status types are imbalanced and that weapon types are imbalanced.  I love reading discussions about pinpointing the problems with these systems and various ideas about how they could be improved.  But one thing that I don't really see explicitly mentioned — and thus I wanted to put out there — is how Warframe is doing fine even if these problems aren't fixed.

Because while these systems are indeed less than ideal and not living up to their true potential, these problems aren't in dire need of fixing.  I can't remember a time in Warframe when the status or damage type meta hasn't been quite restrictive, and in spite of that I've had a great time playing for years.

In any case, that's my take.  What's yours?

[Nok-Rntha]

27 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Just to set the tone in case I don't word things perfectly, this is all my subjective opinion, and I'd love to hear yours as well. <3

I see a lot of topics about how Warframe could be better, and I agree with a lot of them.  For example, I think that damage/status types are imbalanced and that weapon types are imbalanced.  I love reading discussions about pinpointing the problems with these systems and various ideas about how they could be improved.  But one thing that I don't really see explicitly mentioned — and thus I wanted to put out there — is how Warframe is doing fine even if these problems aren't fixed.

Because while these systems are indeed less than ideal and not living up to their true potential, these problems aren't in dire need of fixing.  I can't remember a time in Warframe when the status or damage type meta hasn't been quite restrictive, and in spite of that I've had a great time playing for years.

In any case, that's my take.  What's yours?

I mean, there are many ways to measure success.
Some people measure it in revenue, some in customer (player) satisfaction.

As for the meta being restrictive, it's restrictive precisely because of the systems you think aren't in dire need of fixing.

[Loza03]

The problems that balance issues create become worse with time, is the issue. That's because, if new content is built on top of an unbalanced system, it will affect that system. Consider defence - it's heavily criticised as a game mode in Warframe despite being reasonably popular in other experiences. That's because Defence, almost as a concept, has been so thoroughly power-crept by Warframe's balance issues as to have simple, straightforward strategies with almost no engagement whatsoever.

Now, consider how many horde-based games have some kind of 'defend against waves of enemies' as a major element, or even the core conceit of their gameplay, because it's one of the most reliable ways to set up a horde mode. It's so prominent even games that were traditionally as far from 'horde modes' as it's possible to be (such as Monster Hunter Rise) use 'defend the thing when dipping their toes in that format. And Warframe has reached a point where DE can't use it at all without causing discontent because Defence, as a concept in Warframe, has been pushed out by Power Creep. And defense is hardly the exception to the rule.

 

DE have demonstrated an ability to make creative and interesting boss fights with unique gimmicks and mechanics, and continue to do so even now - consider Alad V, which whilst not the best executed, is a creative semi-puzzle concept and then measure him against the Ropalolyst which, for all the bugs, is still a pretty good encounter. The big difference between them is that Salad has an occasional dispel from Zanuka - Ropalolyst is flat out immune to almost all abilities and outright disables others. And don't even get me started on how nullifiers slowly went from easy-to-counter but incredibly impactful enemies to 'lol, literally any miniboss can have a nullifier field because a small, extremely common enemy is buzzing around them'

[PublikDomain]

If you're enjoying it the way things are, that's great! But a lot of people aren't, and addressing their concerns can make your experience better than it already is. Warframe does not have an endgame, but it would be better if it did. Warframe is not well-balanced, and it would be more fun if it was. Modding is boring, and it would be more interesting if the same 7-8 mods didn't get slotted into every build. Warframe is a good game, yes, but it could be even gooder.

[Zimzala]

I look for possibilities, not limits and restrictions, in games and in life.

I have been accused of being all kinds of things for trying to look at the good and not concentrate on the bad, personally and professionally.

I find the Fun things I like and play with those, I don't dwell on the things I simply don't find Fun.

So, IMO, it really is one's POV that determines if there is even a 'problem'...be it balance or w/e.

IMO, just because there are minds that like to tear things apart in some effort to find flaws in game systems, it does not mean there is an issue, only that some people like to tear things apart to find flaws.

IME, it just makes the people who like to find flaws angry that many of us just don't care to hunt for flaws, point them out, and/or gather the torches and circle the wagons in some effort bring the game or DE 'down a notch', or w/e the reason of the day is to trash DE/WF...I don't see it as the 'tough love' so many players trying to play the role of Parent to DE do, I see unhappy people tearing apart things to make themselves feel better because they found a flaw in something successful.

There is nothing in this world that is perfect if you choose to take a POV that tears it apart into it's components looking for flaws.

IMO, you can choose to enjoy things for what they are, but IME, there are people that have convinced themselves that finding flaws is Fun. If one likes to do that, great, but just because one person sees a thing as flawed, another person just sees a cool game with hours of Entertainment.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

I agree. If people wanna go back to 2013 warframe they can without pushing their views on everyone else. They can make a discord for people that don't use Condition overload and Bloodrush, don't move too fast through a tileset by setting "no speed running builds", they can use recruit chat, make a clan etc.

When I joined, a 7 year player even told me this is the best time to play warframe. Many people seem to like the game except for the handful of warframe "purists" that are a loud majority. I can only hope and pray that DE doesn't listen to them.

[(PSN)Unstar]

48 minutes ago, Nok-Rntha said:

As for the meta being restrictive, it's restrictive precisely because of the systems you think aren't in dire need of fixing.

Exactly.  I understand the relationship between the underlying systems and how they shape the meta.  I'm saying the restrictiveness (which I agree is a problem) isn't in dire need of fixing, in my opinion.  Just wanted to clear that up because it sounds like I didn't communicate that part well enough.

 

40 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

If you're enjoying it the way things are, that's great! But a lot of people aren't, and addressing their concerns can make your experience better than it already is. Warframe does not have an endgame, but it would be better if it did. Warframe is not well-balanced, and it would be more fun if it was. Modding is boring, and it would be more interesting if the same 7-8 mods didn't get slotted into every build. Warframe is a good game, yes, but it could be even gooder.

I hope that nothing I said seemed to suggest that I want discussions about problems and their solutions to stop.  As I said, I enjoy these discussions, and just to clarify I'll explicitly state now that I wish for them to continue.  And naturally, I'd love for the issues themselves to be solved by DE.

[Nok-Rntha]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Exactly.  I understand the relationship between the underlying systems and how they shape the meta.  I'm saying the restrictiveness (which I agree is a problem) isn't in dire need of fixing, in my opinion.  Just wanted to clear that up because it sounds like I didn't communicate that part well enough.

 

I hope that nothing I said seemed to suggest that I want discussions about problems and their solutions to stop.  As I said, I enjoy these discussions, and just to clarify I'll explicitly state now that I wish for them to continue.  And naturally, I'd love for the issues themselves to be solved by DE.

So, you're aware of the underlining systems and how they shape the meta, know that this causes restrictiveness and yet think it doesn't need fixing? Doesn't that sound contradictory to you?

[GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Just to set the tone in case I don't word things perfectly, this is all my subjective opinion, and I'd love to hear yours as well. <3

I see a lot of topics about how Warframe could be better, and I agree with a lot of them.  For example, I think that damage/status types are imbalanced and that weapon types are imbalanced.  I love reading discussions about pinpointing the problems with these systems and various ideas about how they could be improved.  But one thing that I don't really see explicitly mentioned — and thus I wanted to put out there — is how Warframe is doing fine even if these problems aren't fixed.

Because while these systems are indeed less than ideal and not living up to their true potential, these problems aren't in dire need of fixing.  I can't remember a time in Warframe when the status or damage type meta hasn't been quite restrictive, and in spite of that I've had a great time playing for years.

In any case, that's my take.  What's yours?

Spot on! I think DE has done a wonderful job of ignoring quite a bit of long time/hardcore player noise. While a great many ideas for change are really good, I think vets forget that the experience new players are having is 10000% different than their own now. As new players themselves at one time, 95% of the "problems" didn't exist and, instead, were viewed as among the greatest gameplay ever. Arguing against that while recording over 500 hours of playtime is just foolish. 

I think the big issue lies in the secret wish for Warframe 2. A 2000 hour player, for example, has 2000 hours of collection, skill, wisdom and knowledge...but also 2000 hours of observation, reviewing and re-reviewing. By human nature, it's inevitable that many of those players will begin turning specs of sand problems into gigantic mountain problems only for the sake of change. Meanwhile, they don't realize that they're spoiling and cheating the new/casual players out of their experiences. Warframe 2 fixes that by offering a reset, a whole lotta new adventure and absolutely NO spoilers to speak of. 

[Zimzala]

5 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

I think the big issue lies in the secret wish for Warframe 2. A 2000 hour player, for example, has 2000 hours of collection, skill, wisdom and knowledge...but also 2000 hours of observation, reviewing and re-reviewing. By human nature, it's inevitable that many of those players will begin turning specs of sand problems into gigantic mountain problems only for the sake of change. Meanwhile, they don't realize that they're spoiling and cheating the new/casual players out of their experiences. Warframe 2 fixes that by offering a reset, a whole lotta new adventure and absolutely NO spoilers to speak of. 

So in the end, just players that need to find a new game?

I totally agree! 

I think and have thought this for decades about GaaS game burnout.

Too many long-time players of these games IME have simply forgotten that no game can really keep them occupied indefinitely and that it's on them, as payers, to find a new thing to do.

[Gremlin]

When you notice meta (and meta by a pretty wide margin) builds are all identical, you start looking into why the really cool and unique damage types and mods fall flat. 

 

I think the main point about those threads is why the hell would you make all of these different ways and options to play, when they don't exactly make sense, or are effective enough to be fun in a normal capacity?

[(XBOX)Apoll0 666]

Balance problems make the game stale and repetitive with minimal engagement. Makes a lot of weapons, abilities, warframe obsolete and makes too many things mandatory if you want to be able to properly have fun without sucking complete a** because stats aren't on your side. It makes the game one sided with gameplay aspects such as melee being the go-to for steel path, viral/slash being the go-to for actual damage, and so many mandatory mods on guns.

[Aldain]

Warframe has been suffering from increasingly narrow content design for god knows how long, all due to DE not being able to do anything but negate aspects of the game entirely or smear Damage Resistance on everything since there's no concept of "middle ground". We've had more and more content that relies on arbitrary wait times or obtusely questionable grinds. Players of all levels commonly announce how anything and everything that isn't the next Kuva Bramma is MR fodder and actually strive to play the game as little as humanly possible by turning the A.I. off or killing everything in a 500m radius through walls.

But sure...

[(XBOX)Apoll0 666]

1 hour ago, Zimzala said:

I have been accused of being all kinds of things for trying to look at the good and not concentrate on the bad, personally and professionally.

Pixelkiller(Zimzala) here is notorious for being accused of defending the game and it's state, but a lot of what he says can be considered 'factual'. Just wanted to say that because he's accused of such way too often when he's one of the most sensible i've seen on here

aaaand great, I've been given a warning for being a "spammer" : (, I'll see you guys later, first my threads get merged now this, I'm done with forums fo today

[(PSN)Unstar]

33 minutes ago, Nok-Rntha said:

So, you're aware of the underlining systems and how they shape the meta, know that this causes restrictiveness and yet think it doesn't need fixing? Doesn't that sound contradictory to you?

I don't think it's contradictory.  I agree it's a problem, but not all problems are of the same magnitude, and because time and resources are limited not all problems will end up being solved.  When I step back and think about these particular balance problems, I personally categorize it in the "want" list, not the "need" list.

Would it be better if this problem were solved?  Yes!  But how much better?  It's hard to say, because I think at that point we're talking about adding a (working!) system to Warframe that the game has never had (at least in my time).  What I can say is that I've been playing Warframe for years without a solution to that problem, and I've personally been having a great time, which leads me to believe that while things could be better, it's not like my experience is being ruined by this.  Hence the "want" as opposed to "need".

Hope that helps to clarify!

[GEN-Son_17]

7 hours ago, Zimzala said:

So in the end, just players that need to find a new game?

I totally agree! 

I think and have thought this for decades about GaaS game burnout.

Too many long-time players of these games IME have simply forgotten that no game can really keep them occupied indefinitely and that it's on them, as payers, to find a new thing to do.

It's a tough position to be in, no doubt. Long term games will always have that "weakness" against them. Warframe handles it quite well, thanks to their high risk and outside the box approach to content, but certain player types can only go so long. And that's completely fine.

Gaz TTV (corrected) is a HUGE example of someone who needs to just stop. I'm not quite sure what he thinks the game is but he's very clearly burnt out and in it for views. I think it's simple: when you feel you're at your limit and also feel ignored then please step off for a while.

[GEN-Son_17]

24 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

I don't think it's contradictory.  I agree it's a problem, but not all problems are of the same magnitude, and because time and resources are limited not all problems will end up being solved.  When I step back and think about these particular balance problems, I personally categorize it in the "want" list, not the "need" list.

Would it be better if this problem were solved?  Yes!  But how much better?  It's hard to say, because I think at that point we're talking about adding a (working!) system to Warframe that the game has never had (at least in my time).  What I can say is that I've been playing Warframe for years without a solution to that problem, and I've personally been having a great time, which leads me to believe that while things could be better, it's not like my experience is being ruined by this.  Hence the "want" as opposed to "need".

Hope that helps to clarify!

I really like this explanation. Thanks!

[GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

Warframe has been suffering from increasingly narrow content design for god knows how long, all due to DE not being able to do anything but negate aspects of the game entirely or smear Damage Resistance on everything since there's no concept of "middle ground". We've had more and more content that relies on arbitrary wait times or obtusely questionable grinds. Players of all levels commonly announce how anything and everything that isn't the next Kuva Bramma is MR fodder and actually strive to play the game as little as humanly possible by turning the A.I. off or killing everything in a 500m radius through walls.

But sure...

Honestly, that's not Warframe as much as it is the very very VERY large library of spoilers and hand holding. You can see it even in pro magazine reviews where players and content creators quickly offer bypassing information. The joys of exploring and learning have gone to the wayside and all that's left is fast forwarding your own fun. 

[(PSN)Yggranya]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

 

This is also most likely DEs motto.

[Aldain]

13 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

Honestly, that's not Warframe as much as it is the very very VERY large library of spoilers and hand holding. You can see it even in pro magazine reviews where players and content creators quickly offer bypassing information. The joys of exploring and learning have gone to the wayside and all that's left is fast forwarding your own fun. 

There is a question that is to be begged about that though.

Why does the bypassing information cause the entire game to not play even remotely the same as it does for a clueless novice?

I can look up whatever I want for a lot of other games, but even with prior knowledge there's usually some degree of execution and engagement needed beyond that, Warframe lacks that depth because "bypassing information" translates to "obtuse, gamebreaking power creep" nine times out of ten.

Warframe's imbalance has been slowly chipping away at anything that actually makes the game engaging, we have Warframes that eliminate the need to dodge, weapons that eliminate the need to aim and as a result we now have content that many players don't want to engage with, and I don't blame people for not engaging with it when there's no point in purposely playing a game wrong just to squeeze out some remote semblance of meaningful gameplay.

[PublikDomain]

40 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Would it be better if this problem were solved?  Yes!  But how much better?  It's hard to say, because I think at that point we're talking about adding a (working!) system to Warframe that the game has never had (at least in my time).  What I can say is that I've been playing Warframe for years without a solution to that problem, and I've personally been having a great time, which leads me to believe that while things could be better, it's not like my experience is being ruined by this.  Hence the "want" as opposed to "need".

Which is fine, and a perfectly valid perspective, but it's not the perspective everyone has. Some people find that their experience is ruined by things like lack of balance, and for them it's more of a "need" than just a "want". IMO if you have a bunch of people who feel that they need something and a bunch of people who are indifferent, then it's still a need. For example:

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

When I joined, a 7 year player even told me this is the best time to play warframe.

I'd agree that right now is probably the best time to play Warframe as a new player. If you've got another 300 items to collect and level up and thousands of hours of content ahead of you, then yeah you're going to have a blast. Warframe is going to be great for you.

But as an old player it's possibly the worst time to play because there's just nothing interesting for you to do. Raids are gone, PvP is still dead, there's no challenging content to be seen, etc. Warframe lacks the long-term systems and mechanics necessary to keep veteran players engaged, and one of the reasons it can't have these systems is the lack of balance. There are no epic raids or challenge missions because there can't be; it's impossible to create this kind of content because no one can define what "challenging" means when every player's experience is so wildly different.

Both perspectives are valid and correct. But just because you're happy with where the game is doesn't make other players' needs any less valid.

14 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

GaaS is a HUGE example of someone who needs to just stop. I'm not quite sure what he thinks the game is but he's very clearly burnt out and in it for views. I think it's simple: when you feel you're at your limit and also feel ignored then please step off for a while.

GaaS is an acronym for "Games as a Service", not a person. Games like Warframe which are designed to run perpetually through constant content drops. MMOs, F2Ps, etc.

[(PSN)Unstar]

16 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Which is fine, and a perfectly valid perspective, but it's not the perspective everyone has. Some people find that their experience is ruined by things like lack of balance, and for them it's more of a "need" than just a "want".

Believe me, I get that my perspective is my own and that others will have different experiences; that's why I asked for people like you to tell me about yours. :)

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

2 hours ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

Spot on! I think DE has done a wonderful job of ignoring quite a bit of long time/hardcore player noise. While a great many ideas for change are really good, I think vets forget that the experience new players are having is 10000% different than their own now. As new players themselves at one time, 95% of the "problems" didn't exist and, instead, were viewed as among the greatest gameplay ever. Arguing against that while recording over 500 hours of playtime is just foolish. 
 

The early game is the most well-balanced part of WF. But eventually those new players will become vets and they’ll start to see the balancing problems everyone was talking about. It should be possible to fix the balancing issues in the late game without affecting the enjoyment of the early game.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

38 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I don't blame people for not engaging with it when there's no point in purposely playing a game wrong just to squeeze out some remote semblance of meaningful gameplay.

As much as I agree with your criticisms of the game’s balance issues, this just feels...exaggerated.

I assume by “playing the game wrong”, you mean using off-meta gear and not using nuke frames. Gear that reduces your efficiency. But the way I see it, WF is so easy that you don’t need meta gear to be efficient.

Outside of specific situations where I need a certain loadout or frame to complete a task, I pretty much always use whatever frame and weapon combo that I find fun. I never use nuke frames, I very rarely use AOE guns, and I’ve never felt like I was too inefficient to enjoy the game 🤷‍♂️.

I guess that was a long way of saying I kind of agree with the OP? There’s definitely problems that need fixing and they’re much more apparent to me now that I’m in the late game, but I still don’t feel like I’m “playing the game wrong”.

[PublikDomain]

27 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Believe me, I get that my perspective is my own and that others will have different experiences; that's why I asked for people like you to tell me about yours. :)

And for that I'm glad. But there are others here who seem wholly incapable of understanding that other people have different experiences and desires, and will constantly dismiss any and all concerns out of hand just because don't have the capacity to understand them. It's a pet peeve.