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Scaling warframe ability is a mistake for balance, challenge and "endgame"


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15 hours ago, xxswatelitexx said:

The answer is simple,

The game isn't meant to be a slog.

You can add difficulty without having to just make it so it takes longer to kill an enemy. You can actually create more difficult enemies that require new tactics to beat.

 

Horizon Zero Dawn, Dark Souls, Even games like Division 2 did this beautifully. 

By creating new more challenging enemies that require you to constantly think on your feet to beat. 

 

Unfortunately Warframe doesn't embrace this idea and uses gimmicks like Orb Mother that has rotating Elements to annoy players. 

And how do you make it? Only saying "create more difficult enemies that require new tactics to beat", "Create new more challenging enemies that require you to constantly think on your feet to beat" doesn't help anyone to magically know what enemy you're talking about and how the design works around warframe with super powers

And in comparison to those games, do they have 10x damage boosting ability or outright wiping enemies in 50 meter radius nuking?

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On 2021-04-13 at 12:51 AM, TheArmchairThinker said:

And how do you make it? Only saying "create more difficult enemies that require new tactics to beat", "Create new more challenging enemies that require you to constantly think on your feet to beat" doesn't help anyone to magically know what enemy you're talking about and how the design works around warframe with super powers

And in comparison to those games, do they have 10x damage boosting ability or outright wiping enemies in 50 meter radius nuking?

Well if you actually played those games you probably would have your answer.

SInce you didn't, I guess I can help you out.

Horizon Zero Dawn;

Uses a Critical Weakpoint system, where hitting them in the generic body does very little damage. Only Targetted skills at specific points do high damage.

More importantly if you do enough damage to a weakpoint they lose an ability. The enemies do extremely high damage and can harass you, so disabling various body parts is critical to winning a fight. In many cases crowd control and timing is also important. 

Even if you used a Tripple Damage High Armor Penetration Arrow - it will do very little damage compared to a single shot at a critical weakpoint.

Horizon Zero Dawn is currently King ( Or Queen ) - of Monster Design.

Dark Souls:

Dark Souls is a Mix game, where there are not many weak points but there are timed moves. That means constantly moving and avoiding high damage attacks in order to get victory. 

Division 2:

Division 2 is another mixed bag where it uses both High Health but also Unique Enemy Design to add challange.

For example with the Right Build you could 2 shot an enemy Hero unit even on the Hardest Difficulty but that would require extreme accuracy by getting headshot multipliers.

But at the same time having such a build puts you at grave risk as you can't take much damage.

Division 2 is a Cover shooter, where if you don't stay in cover you are dead ( unless your a tank build )

So Division 2 varies its unit designs to force players to prioritize specific units. 

Shield Units with near full shields run around charging you in cover. Forcing you to exploit the tiny weakness their feet in order for them to trip so you can put max damage to their body or head.

 Drone Users - which hide in cover and deploy drones with AoE and CC abilities against you. Forcing you to constantly relocate in order to get Direct line of sight to attack them.

Heavy Tank units which do insanely high damage and requires you to keep your distance. BUT they have critical weakpoints which you can use to temporarily disable them. 

Sniper Dogs which can 1 - 2 shot you, they got 2 major weakness they are susceptible to EMP attacks and a Extremely tiny Red loader on their sniper rifle which can disable them.

 

Synopsis;

By creating mechanics where high damage are not completely successful but multiple tactics are needed to take down an enemy. You create a new unique experience.

 

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3 hours ago, xxswatelitexx said:

Horizon Zero Dawn;

Uses a Critical Weakpoint system, where hitting them in the generic body does very little damage. Only Targetted skills at specific points do high damage.

More importantly if you do enough damage to a weakpoint they lose an ability. The enemies do extremely high damage and can harass you, so disabling various body parts is critical to winning a fight. In many cases crowd control and timing is also important. 

Even if you used a Tripple Damage High Armor Penetration Arrow - it will do very little damage compared to a single shot at a critical weakpoint.

Horizon Zero Dawn is currently King ( Or Queen ) - of Monster Design.

And if we want to implement it to warframe, how well do you think it will work considering we're fighting a horde in corridor as the main gameplay? In open maps like earth, mars, venus outpost tileset, europa and open world nodes they would work well but in other tileset? I don't think that will work well in cramped tileset but still worth designing around

And I think doing extremely high damage is not acceptable for some, as I've seen some Tenno complaining about Deimos Jugulus with with damage gas attack (disabling body parts would be a nice addition)

3 hours ago, xxswatelitexx said:

Dark Souls:

Dark Souls is a Mix game, where there are not many weak points but there are timed moves. That means constantly moving and avoiding high damage attacks in order to get victory. 

Again, how do you implement it into warframe where enemies are plenty and come from every direction?

3 hours ago, xxswatelitexx said:

Shield Units with near full shields run around charging you in cover. Forcing you to exploit the tiny weakness their feet in order for them to trip so you can put max damage to their body or head.

We have that, but explosive weapons render them useless and last time I read about a thread for their buff gets negative response

3 hours ago, xxswatelitexx said:

By creating mechanics where high damage are not completely successful but multiple tactics are needed to take down an enemy. You create a new unique experience.

Yes, but still, you need to consider how can you put them in warframe with fast moving warframes, insane damage multipliers everywhere and how it will join into the game without disrupting the pace which as far as I know not something acceptable

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9 hours ago, xxswatelitexx said:

Synopsis;

By creating mechanics where high damage are not completely successful but multiple tactics are needed to take down an enemy. You create a new unique experience.

Before this can actually work, DE would first have to balance the damage in the game. Like with @Corvid's Halo example, if players can simply kill enemies too fast, it doesn't matter how fancy their mechanics are.

Its extremely important to figure out the TTK (Time To Kill) you want for each enemy. How many bullets does it take to kill a basic grunt enemy? What about the big tough elites? Getting this wrong can very easily make an otherwise well designed combat system boring. Too fast, and every enemy is as threatening as a target dummy. Too slow, and it becomes incredibly tedious. Having TTK be too fast is usually the worse situation, because it can invalidate entire chunks of the combat mechanics. Like, why bother using any fun support powers, or carefully aiming for weak points, when you can easily deal enough damage to kill everything in a single body shot?

This is why most games have some kind of parallel leveling system. If you're fighting level 30 enemies, and your character is also level 30, your TTK will be what the Devs intended it to be, and everything will work correctly. And there is usually some kind of system to discourage or outright block players from going to areas that don't match their current level. But there is nothing like that in Warframe. Anyone with any gear can play almost any mission at any time with any other players that can also have any gear.

And it gets even worse than that. Thanks to enemy level scaling, its possible to be too weak and too strong at the same time. Especially in endless missions, where you can spend hours completely overpowering everything, only to suddenly get overpowered and have to leave. And in between, there is a tiny window where the enemies were actually properly matched to your stats that probably only lasted a few minutes.

So, how is DE supposed to build any kind of interesting mechanics around that? When one player that can only deal 300 DPS, and another that can deal 300 million DPS are playing the same missions, and the enemies can go from 1,000 HP to hundreds of millions of HP in a single mission, how can you design any kind of fun mechanics that work for everyone? So far, the only way that DE has managed this is with things like the Nihil fight, where they take away almost all of our gear and abilities. But, while that may work okay for a single boss here and there, its not a viable solution for the entire game.

So yeah, having enemies that need advanced tactics to defeat them would be great. But it would be pointless to do so right now, because I doubt anyone would even notice.

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8 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And if we want to implement it to warframe, how well do you think it will work considering we're fighting a horde in corridor as the main gameplay? In open maps like earth, mars, venus outpost tileset, europa and open world nodes they would work well but in other tileset? I don't think that will work well in cramped tileset but still worth designing around

And I think doing extremely high damage is not acceptable for some, as I've seen some Tenno complaining about Deimos Jugulus with with damage gas attack (disabling body parts would be a nice addition)

Rethink the concept of 'the horde'. A group of enemies isn't necessarily several individual challenges - it can also be one challenge, with each enemy serving as a 'body part' or a 'critical weakness'.

Consider a setup like this - imagine a reworked Corpus that makes consistent use of environmental items, similar to blunts and ramparts. Shield Ospreys make shields tougher, not necessarily regenerate them (that mechanic is usually more annoying since it fully regenerates enemy shields), but there's stationary towers that do, quite quickly even, and they've set up another that dulls the effects of abilities - not quite a full nullifier (I like them, but I feel they should be more of an 'oh S***' moment rather than a semi-constant force) but enough to severely blunt the brute-force approach. But these things aren't enemies. The number of Corpus that are actually a physical threat is reduced to compensate, but those Corpus are more focused on being one, and will semi-tactically use these items. Perhaps others can set up smaller versions of these towers, allowing them to slowly bring their defensive line forward or further fortify when left to their own devices. Enough variety of towers could make for a comfortably wide variety of power-ups for Corpus units.

Leastways, until those towers get destroyed. You need to use skill and good target prioritisation to break up the Corpus's structure, at which point they fall apart, far weaker than other factions without their fancy gadgets. Or perhaps with reworked stealth that's more than just 'spam invisibility, lol', these towers are just not activated all the time. I mean, if you're not under attack, why would you have your defensive structures sucking power from reactors? That's EXPENSIVE!

 

Perhaps Infested could use a reworked spawning mechanic, where you need to actively cleanse their presence by taking time to destroy creeping infested meat-moss that they can spread similar to Zerg Creep, otherwise they can spawn enemies in open space with little warning - which could potentially improve that creep further, letting stronger foes spawn. And cleansing these patches in endlesss or longer-lasting missions takes time, effort and ammunition. Not necessarily much, and it isn't necessary all the time, but enough that on endless missions especially, just wiping out the surface layer with our current tactics isn't going to solve the problem. Grineer, perhaps, could rely more on intrinsic perks, where some enemies are more resistant to certain powers or weapons (emphasis on 'certain' - no one standard Grineer is resistant to all CC, but specifically CC that binds them, another that sends them to sleep and so forth). From there, that makes certain Grineer more or less of an individual threat to certain loadouts and frames.

 

This'd still need further changes as @Teljaxx and @Corvid have pointed out, but there's certainly ways to make 'weak points' in non-conventional ways that work for a horde fight.

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